EV Digest 6120
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Curtis whine question vs. Raptor condensation issues
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Heater relay welding problem
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Solar EV power
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Multiple NEDRA records
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Curtis whine question vs. Raptor condensation issues
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Heater relay welding problem
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Multiple NEDRA Records and Production Class
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Update: Lithium Ion Power Battery 30Ah - 800Ah
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Correction...was Multiple NEDRA records
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Renewable Energy Idea, an' More!
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) More laptop battery stuff.
by Matt Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: [BULK] Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
by "Lawrence Lile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Curtis whine question vs. Raptor condensation issues
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: [BULK] Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
by "Lawrence Lile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) C02 per mile
by Carl Clifford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: [BULK] Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Heater relay welding problem
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: [BULK] Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) CO2 per mile calculations
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Renewable Energy Idea, an' More!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hey all,
I know that the Curtis 1231-8601 whines with a 9"
ADC. But will it also do it with an 8"? IIRC, it
was because the duty cycle starts at 1.5K, and
switches up to 15K shortly thereafter, so it would be
that way with both.
I'm still figuring out what to do with (what we think)
is condensation getting inside the Raptor. I've gone
through two of them in two years.
Curtis is sealed against moisture; well, at least
until the end cap comes off eventually!
Thanks,
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Would using a solid state relay solve the welding of contacts problem created
when using the heater motor input into the control side of the relay?
storm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Both Peter and Robert are correct, I was being generous and keeping it
simple.
17% is the highest I have heard avail and 21% highest I heard in research.
The 5 hours of sun number considers that the there is really an average
of 5 hours of full sun so that people can multiply it times the panel
rateing to size installations. We get way more than that in summer.
Yes a MPPT is assumed.
Peter mentions the thermal aspect, and the dust, and I have seen both
these effects. I live across from a field with a very active church
where 100's of people park in the field 3 ties a week. The panels (and
my car :-( ) are perpetually dirty. They are essentially an open face
photo transistor .
So Here is a thought. If you can keep the panels cool, you can
concentrate the solar up to about 50x (on mono-crystalline cells).
I always wanted to get a single row of cells, put them in a "solarhart"
type collector, water cool them and track the sun. The heated water
would be for domestic use. The problem is of course that useful domestic
water temp far exceeds useful panel temperature so the only choice I can
see would be the heating of a swimming pool.( and I don't have one of
those yet)
Realistically I got about 6000 kwh last year and 21*150W panels * 5
hours * 365 days is 5748 kwh. Which shouldn't surprise, the number comes
from interpolated measurements.
Lots of info, I love wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_energy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
John and I had a great conversation last night and we discussed the
concerns about his record's listing on the Record Page.
I know I spelled it out in my previous message but briefly again
John's record should be PS/A3 not SC/A3. That's PS for "Pro-Street"
since under the Pro-Street Class Rules the rear-end in John's car has
been modified.
John has the correction as "SP/A3" but the "SP" class is for "Street
Production" vehicles like the EV1 and the Sparrow. We have "SP"
listed twice in our Class/Voltage chart on the Records page which
probably added to this confusion. I'll fix that.
I'm awaiting word from the NEDRA Board before I post the corrections
so everyone is on the same page.
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http;//www.nedra.com
On Nov 10, 2006, at 8:17 AM, John Wayland wrote:
Dennis, I believe I found what 'came to your attention'. I hadn't
gone to the NEDRA records page for some time, but after reading
your comments about 'bending rules' I took a look. I was surprised
to find that White Zombie's 12.308 @ 104.20 mph run from the August
Late Night NEDRA Drags was listed as a new record for the newly
created voltage class 'A3' (349V and up) in the wrong class as SC/
A3. My car indeed, has a non-stock rear end (Ford 9 inch Dutchman
Motorsports) and other mods that forced the new ProStreet class
'SP'. As determined by the NEDRA board (not me) White Zombie is no
longer racing in the Street Conversion class (SC) and is now racing
in the SP (ProStreet) class. White Zombie's new record should have
been listed as SP/A3, not SC/A3.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Bob,
Any cabinet setting outside, where there is a temperature change cause by
cooling and then by heating by solar or by any device in the enclosure will
condensate.
What we do to prevent this condensation in transformers that are air vented,
Nema 4 to 12 electrical enclosures that have venting, is to place a strip
heater at the bottom of the enclosure.
You only need low wattage of 12 watts or smaller, depending the size of the
enclosures.
The source of supply for these type of heaters are from a industrial
supplier Chromalox Company which manufacture heater elements for all other
companies that assemble heating systems.
Normally you have to order these units through a electrical wholesaler
supply company.
Another thing you could experiment with, is to use one of those round heat
cables, that you can cut to length which is so many watts per foot. See how
many amps of 12 volts it would take on one section of this type of heat
tape. I think these are like 2 or 4 watts per foot.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 6:23 AM
Subject: Curtis whine question vs. Raptor condensation issues
> Hey all,
> I know that the Curtis 1231-8601 whines with a 9"
> ADC. But will it also do it with an 8"? IIRC, it
> was because the duty cycle starts at 1.5K, and
> switches up to 15K shortly thereafter, so it would be
> that way with both.
>
> I'm still figuring out what to do with (what we think)
> is condensation getting inside the Raptor. I've gone
> through two of them in two years.
>
> Curtis is sealed against moisture; well, at least
> until the end cap comes off eventually!
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> Learn more at:
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
> wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
> http://new.mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Storm Connors" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "List EV" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 6:25 AM
Subject: Heater relay welding problem
> Would using a solid state relay solve the welding of contacts problem
> created when using the heater motor input into the control side of the
> relay?
> storm
Maybe, I am using 40 to 100 amp solid state relays made by NTE on my
heating system and also used to control several Dayton blower fans since
1985 and has not blow up yet.
These units are going to run $80.00 or more wholesale. You can get cheaper
units from All Electronics you can try.
Roland
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Darin,
The NEDRA Board will need to discuss setting records at IHRA tracks.
I recall Mike Wilmon mentioning something about it a few days ago.
I think the issue was whether those tracks would run electrics. Doc
Kennedy races at an IHRA track in Virginia and hasn't had any problems.
I would think that as long as the track allows electrics we would use
the same rule of having two runs within one percent of each other on
the same day. We would also need to see the time slips to verify the
record.
This isn't official so I'd have to run it with the NEDRA Board first.
If it gets more electrics out on the race track I see no problem with
it.
We had concerns with posting all the NEDRA members names and their
membership status on the website. The NEDRA Yahoo List may be a
better place to access the membership list since those members need
to join the NEDRA group first. I will discuss with the Board the idea
of posting the Membership File on the NEDRA Yahoo List.
We may be also able to add a "Members" section on the website so they
can log in and see their membership status.
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
On Nov 10, 2006, at 8:17 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: "BFRListmail" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: November 10, 2006 7:36:32 AM EST
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Multiple NEDRA Records and Production Class
Excellent information Chip. I guess all we needed to do was ask.
While we're on the topic, I'll throw out a few more things
There is no mention of being able to set a record at an IHRA
track. A gentlemen on the list, the Alaska guy right? just asked
about running his vehicle at an IHRA track. I said he'd have no
problem with the rules, but I didn't think about being able to set
a record. I seem to recall it was said a year or so ago that IHRA
was OK with the electrics.
Can I get a ruling here?
Now I know maybe I shouldn't be too hung up on details, as this is
really supposed to be for fun. But if we've got all these rules in
place already, lets get them right. I do think having quite a few
rules does establish NEDRA as a professional looking group.
I was just thinking that I renewed my membership just before the
last NEDRA election. I'm pretty sure my membership had expired
before that. And I know I'm going to feel like a dummy when I show
up at the next NEDRA race, or maybe the one after that, and find
that my membership has lapsed. What's up with this? Maybe a list
on the web page of members in good standing, along with their start
date and membership expiration date? I don't know if anyone is
against publishing the member list, but if that listed names and
cities with emails, it might get people especially in the same city/
region together. Or just set all memberships to end at the same
time each year, maybe twice a year?
Just a few things on my mind.
Darin
BadFishRacing
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In case others didn't receive this, I'm forwarding it to the list.
Bill Dennis
*_Lithium ion Re-chargeable Power Batteries_*
*New battery models update: high capacity and high current. ** BMS
*and* Charger* availability.
*
Introduction of _*TS-LFP models*_ with *3C high continous
current*,* longer life cycle* and are suitable for motor drive
applications. Capacity from *30Ah to 800Ah* batteries with
continous current from *90A to 2400A !*.
Selection and Pricing :
http://www.everspring.net/txt/product-battery-pricing.htm or the
bottom of this page.
*
_*TS-LCP models*_ with lighter weight and smaller size have
extended the capacity to *600Ah.*
Selection and Pricing :
http://www.everspring.net/txt/product-battery-pricing.htm or the
bottom of this page.
*
Please ask for the aggressive *volume-pricing break*
**
*
New battery management system (*BMS*) module is available. See
attached reference document*.*
Each BMS module can control upto 10 cells for overvoltage charging
protection and voltage monitoring of individual cell with LCD
display panel.
BMS module - unit price US$500
Display panel - unit price US$500
*
*Custom-built matching charger* for the BMS module.
The cost of a custom-built charger is US$ 750 per KW with ordering
leadtime of* *6-8 weeks in general.
For example, if you have 14 cells of 100AH cells (TS-LCP100AHA),
in order to charge it, you need 4.25v charging voltage per cell
and the charging current is 0.3C or 33A. Therefore, the charger
will be a 14x 4.25v x 33A = 1963 watts or 2 KW. The pricing of
the charger will be US$ 1,500.
See the BMS and charger in action: http://www.everspring.net/charger/
Best Regards,
Keith Lau
Director
Everspring Global Ltd.
*Hong Kong. Dubai. Austria*
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*- LITHIUM ION RE-CHARGEABLE POWER BATTERY *_Selection Guide and
Pricing (in US$)_
*_TS-Series_ LCP model Lithium ion Power Batteries*
Light weight, small size, high current, high capacity at high current,
and are suitable for battery backup applications.
Nominal
Nominal
Max Discharge
Cycle Life
Dimension
Weight
List Price
Voltage
capacity
Current
(80%DOD)
(mm)
(Kg)
US$
@ 0.3C
(Continuous)
TS-LCP50AHA
3.6V
50AH
15A
300
190x116x46
1.6kg
US$100
TS-LCP90AHA
3.6V
90AH
30A
300
215x115x61
2.4kg
US$180
TS-LCP100AHA
3.6V
100AH
33A
300
220x145x61
3.0kg
US$200
TS-LCP200AHA
3.6V
200AH
66A
300
285x182x71
5.5kg
US$400
TS-LCP600AHA
3.6V
600AH
200A
300
452x288x71
14.8kg
US$1,500
*_TS-Series_ LFP model Lithium ion Power Batteries*
3C high current, high capacity at high current, longer life cycle and
are suitable for motor drive applications.
Nominal Nominal Max Discharge Cycle Life
Dimension Weight List Price
Voltage capacity Current (80%DOD) (mm)
(Kg) US$
@ 0.3C (Continuous)
TS-LFP30AHA 3.2V 30AH 90A 1000 180x160x46
1.6kg US$60
TS-LFP80AHA 3.2V 80AH 240A 1000 220x145x61
3.0kg US$160
TS-LFP150AHA 3.2V 150AH 450A 1000 285x182x71
5.3kg US$300
TS-LFP400AHA 3.2V 400AH 1200A 1000 452x289x71
13.5kg US$800
TS-LFP800AHA 3.2V 800AH 2400A 1000 850x289x71
25kg US$2,000
/ /
*TS-Series LCP model vs _LFP_ model*
LCP model LFP model
Operating Voltage: 2.8-4.25V 2.0-4.2V
Nominal Voltage: 3.6V 3.2V
Max Discharge Current (Continuous): 0.3 C 3 C (C = rated A)
Max Discharge Current (pulse): 3 C 5 C (C = rated A)
Maximum Charge Current: 0.3 C 0.3 C (C = rated A)
Cycle Life: (80%DOD) 300 1000
Cycle Life: (70%DOD) 500 1500
Size over Norminal Capacity 33% larger
Weight over Norminal Capacity 20% heavier
Flame retarded Better
Best Applications Energy storage Motor drive
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here in Montana, they are planning to install two coal fire plants. One is
a standard unit which they said it will clean up 99% of the CO2 emissions,
but that leaves several 1000 tons of CO2 emissions per year. We do not want
this unit here yet even though they are going to use many 300 foot high wind
power generators to power it.
The other unit, is a process that turns the coal into a fuel liquid that can
either run the plant or even turn it to a fuel to run a vehicle. There is
only one other plant like this which is in Wyoming.
It is to be 99.99% emission free, which is still 100 lbs of emissions per
year which includes 10 lbs of mercury!
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 1:41 AM
Subject: Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
> There are also plans to "sequester" the CO2 emissions from fossil fuel
> power plants. If this is for real, then fossil fuel power plant
> emissions are near zero while automotive gasoline remains unchanged.
>
> However, the practice of sequestering is not currently widespread and
> there are serious questions as to whether the basic principle is
> scientifically valid or merely an industrial scam to circumvent
> environmental regulations.
>
> Danny
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> >These figures p[roably are correct, but are a worse case scenario and
> >don't
> >take several other factors into account.....there is no age to the
> >figures,
> >and due to the fact that , presumably, the US is slowly inmplementing a
> >renweable energy policy the lb/kwh for 'US Power' is going to be
> >continually
> >reducing....add to that the fact that more coal fired stations are being
> >converted
> >to run on gas, or they at least should be, this figure for CO2 from US
> >Power
> >is one that Americans should not necessarily dispute but instead hold it
> >up
> >to the governemnt declaring it to be disgraceful.........and be careful
> >that
> >they don't start taxing you for CO2 production
> >
> >Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
> >Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) >
> >MIME-Version: 1.0
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> >
> >Without quoting accurate sources for all the numbers given, blogs like
> >this are just one more persons unsubstantiated opinion.
> >
> >Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>"A electric car charging from a coal powered grid ( 2.177 lbs C02/kwh)
> >>would generate twice the C02 per mile over a new low emissions IC car.
> >>If you lived in a nuclear or wind / hydro generated area a grid charged
> >>EV car would generate 10 times less C02 per mile then in a coal powered
> >>area and 1/5 the C02 of a IC vehicle."
> >>
> >>"These high C02 numbers for a EV were a complete surprise to me.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
It was probably too late and I should have been sleeping....I goofed
when I wrote this:
The new highest voltage classes are now 'A' at 241V-300V, 'A2' at
341V-348V (incorrectly listed at the NEDRA page as 300V-348V), and
'A3' at 349V and up.
My error was that 'A2' at 341V-348V. It of course, should have read 'A2'
at 301V-348V.
See Ya....John 'now more awake' Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Storm Connors" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 5:58 AM
Subject: Re: Renewable Energy Idea, an' More!
> I thought that if they weren't fully charged they would lose capacity-
> like a memory effect. Is this not true? Also for shallow discharges.
As long as you do not set too long below 80% SOC otherwise the negative
plates will built up with too much SO4.
Its take me about 5 days to discharge from 100% to 75% or about 3 days from
90% to 75% so I don't charge the batteries every day.
There is no memory effect with a lead acid battery. My batteries are now
going over 5 years and they are perfect. They have not blow up yet.
Your 12 volt ICE cranking battery are always above 80%. A lot of these 12
volt batteries, they install only 1.250 SG electrolyte, so the alternator
can work these batteries a little and the grid erosion is not as great as at
1.275 SG. This is why they can warranty for 7 years or I have seen float
type batteries warranty for over 10 years which was a Exide Seal Cadmium
battery.
If you look up a cycle life of a battery on the WEB, a 20% DOD battery will
about 4000 or more charge cycles as compare to a 50% DOD with something less
than 1000 charge cycles.
Roland
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Thursday, November 9, 2006 10:01:40 AM
> Subject: Re: Renewable Energy Idea, an' More!
>
> One way to reduce your electrical bill, is not to charge the batteries
> above
> 90% or even 80% every time you charge it, unless you have to squeeze every
> bit of energy out of your batteries for your range.
>
> If you have to deplete the batteries below 50% on every drive, than its
> best
> to have a higher AH battery for range and long life.
>
> My battery cycles for a 260 AH battery is from 90 to 80% which takes out
> about 25 AH which takes only 30 to 35 minutes to charge to 90%.
>
> About every three and sometimes every 6 months, I water, do a balance
> charge
> and then charge the batteries to 100%.
>
> Trying to break my old record of 12 years on my last set of batteries,
> which
> were Exide X something of 235 AH.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 7:23 AM
> Subject: Re: Renewable Energy Idea, an' More!
>
>
> >
> > In a message dated 11/8/2006 11:32:42 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >
> > Of course I do expect the 'lectric bill to go up when I get
> > another EV back in servive?
> >
> >
> >
> > First full month of operating the trike, my bill went up $10 or so. (7
> > cents a KWH - municipally owner utility) Plugged it in most nights,
> > covered
> > about 400 miles the first month - all in town. Part of that increase
> > could just
> > be the "noise" of month to month changes - an extra day or two in the
> > meter
> > reading cycle, the approach of Winter and so on.
> >
> > Matt Parkhouse
> > Colorado Springs, CO
> > BMW m/c-Golf Cart trike - 48 volts, 30mph on the flat, 35 mile range
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Laptop battery "expert" interview on Lithium batteries. Article relates
to laptop batteries
http://pcpitstop.com/news/rob/tony0610.asp
I have not read the entire article, but from a quick scan it appears
that the engineer being interviewed holds the belief that Lithium is too
dangerous.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, the Electric Auto Association certainly comes to the expected
conclusions, that electric vehicles make dramatically less Carbon
Dioxide. They are basing this on "CA MIX" power, which I assume is the
mix of power sources in a typical California Grid. I am guessing that
CA uses a lot of hydro?
Anyone know any sources for finding out the generation mix in other
areas? I've already contacted my utility, with little result.
Lawrence Lile, P.E., LEED AP
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of ohnojoe
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 5:44 AM
To: [email protected]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [BULK] Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
Importance: Low
Here is the info from eaaev.
http://www.eaaev.org/Forms-Docs/eaaflyer-autoemissions.pdf
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 1:50 AM
Subject: Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why not use a lightbulb? Most of their output is heat anyway.
----- Original Message ----
From: Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 9:12:33 AM
Subject: Re: Curtis whine question vs. Raptor condensation issues
Hello Bob,
Any cabinet setting outside, where there is a temperature change cause by
cooling and then by heating by solar or by any device in the enclosure will
condensate.
What we do to prevent this condensation in transformers that are air vented,
Nema 4 to 12 electrical enclosures that have venting, is to place a strip
heater at the bottom of the enclosure.
You only need low wattage of 12 watts or smaller, depending the size of the
enclosures.
The source of supply for these type of heaters are from a industrial
supplier Chromalox Company which manufacture heater elements for all other
companies that assemble heating systems.
Normally you have to order these units through a electrical wholesaler
supply company.
Another thing you could experiment with, is to use one of those round heat
cables, that you can cut to length which is so many watts per foot. See how
many amps of 12 volts it would take on one section of this type of heat
tape. I think these are like 2 or 4 watts per foot.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 6:23 AM
Subject: Curtis whine question vs. Raptor condensation issues
> Hey all,
> I know that the Curtis 1231-8601 whines with a 9"
> ADC. But will it also do it with an 8"? IIRC, it
> was because the duty cycle starts at 1.5K, and
> switches up to 15K shortly thereafter, so it would be
> that way with both.
>
> I'm still figuring out what to do with (what we think)
> is condensation getting inside the Raptor. I've gone
> through two of them in two years.
>
> Curtis is sealed against moisture; well, at least
> until the end cap comes off eventually!
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> Learn more at:
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
> wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
> http://new.mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmm - this doesn't pass the smell test. What are they doing to
eliminate 99% of carbon emissions from a coal plant? I can believe 99%
of SO2, Mercury, and other nasties - but CO2?
Lawrence Lile, P.E., LEED AP
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 8:45 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [BULK] Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
Importance: Low
Here in Montana, they are planning to install two coal fire plants. One
is
a standard unit which they said it will clean up 99% of the CO2
emissions,
but that leaves several 1000 tons of CO2 emissions per year. We do not
want
this unit here yet even though they are going to use many 300 foot high
wind
power generators to power it.
The other unit, is a process that turns the coal into a fuel liquid that
can
either run the plant or even turn it to a fuel to run a vehicle. There
is
only one other plant like this which is in Wyoming.
It is to be 99.99% emission free, which is still 100 lbs of emissions
per
year which includes 10 lbs of mercury!
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 1:41 AM
Subject: Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
> There are also plans to "sequester" the CO2 emissions from fossil fuel
> power plants. If this is for real, then fossil fuel power plant
> emissions are near zero while automotive gasoline remains unchanged.
>
> However, the practice of sequestering is not currently widespread and
> there are serious questions as to whether the basic principle is
> scientifically valid or merely an industrial scam to circumvent
> environmental regulations.
>
> Danny
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> >These figures p[roably are correct, but are a worse case scenario and
> >don't
> >take several other factors into account.....there is no age to the
> >figures,
> >and due to the fact that , presumably, the US is slowly
inmplementing a
> >renweable energy policy the lb/kwh for 'US Power' is going to be
> >continually
> >reducing....add to that the fact that more coal fired stations are
being
> >converted
> >to run on gas, or they at least should be, this figure for CO2 from
US
> >Power
> >is one that Americans should not necessarily dispute but instead hold
it
> >up
> >to the governemnt declaring it to be disgraceful.........and be
careful
> >that
> >they don't start taxing you for CO2 production
> >
> >Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
> >Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) >
> >MIME-Version: 1.0
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> >
> >Without quoting accurate sources for all the numbers given, blogs
like
> >this are just one more persons unsubstantiated opinion.
> >
> >Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>"A electric car charging from a coal powered grid ( 2.177 lbs
C02/kwh)
> >>would generate twice the C02 per mile over a new low emissions IC
car.
> >>If you lived in a nuclear or wind / hydro generated area a grid
charged
> >>EV car would generate 10 times less C02 per mile then in a coal
powered
> >>area and 1/5 the C02 of a IC vehicle."
> >>
> >>"These high C02 numbers for a EV were a complete surprise to me.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I seem to remember somebody mentioning a good analysis of this on the web
somewhere - anybody remember where?
The bottom line is that these numbers need to be well-to-wheels, not
smokestack numbers. Does the IC Car number use the tailpipe or is it additive
for the cost to drill, pump, ship, refine, and truck the fuel? Is the coal
smokestack number for an old plant, a new plant, or a weighted average?
I would love to see a complete end-to-end analysis where we hash out all of
the assumptions and include everything we can reasonably quantify. We could
even take a swing at the following which I would guess could change the numbers
significantly:
-oil exploration
-building and maintaining drilling rigs
-building, inspecting, and mainting tankers
-building and maintaining pipelines and storage
-building and maintaining refineries
-building and maintaining ports to receive tankers
-building and maintaining gas stations
-building and maintaining tanker trucks and other delivery
-building and maintaining emmissions testing centers
-securing all of the above
-and of course the big one that we could never agree on - the energy we expend
for "stability in the region"
Too political I suppose, but it would be nice to have a very complete
resource to point out as many objective numbers as possible when we hear this
argument.
>>"A electric car charging from a coal powered grid ( 2.177 lbs C02/kwh)
>>would generate twice the C02 per mile over a new low emissions IC car.
>>If you lived in a nuclear or wind / hydro generated area a grid charged
>>EV car would generate 10 times less C02 per mile then in a coal powered
>>area and 1/5 the C02 of a IC vehicle."
>>
>>"These high C02 numbers for a EV were a complete surprise to me.
Carl Clifford
Denver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
About the only way to see this power mix is to go to a generator control
complex and look at the big screen that displays the percentage of different
types of power source from different areas of the country.
One time we as a group of technicians, electricians, and engineers took a
tour of one of these control centers. At the time, our city, Great Falls,
Montana, sometimes known as the electric city, was producing 15 percent of
the power from 30 generators from 5 dams for our city and sending out about
50% of the capacity to other places.
We keep 10 generators running at 50 percent load at all times, keep 10 on
running standby at no load and another 10 for maintenance.
Sometime when I was ask, what type of energy I used to run my EV, I say
gravity which indirectly generates electricity by water falling.
Of course it takes solar to raise this water to make it fall again, and
again and again.......
What kind of motion would you call this?
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Lile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 8:44 AM
Subject: RE: [BULK] Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
> Well, the Electric Auto Association certainly comes to the expected
> conclusions, that electric vehicles make dramatically less Carbon
> Dioxide. They are basing this on "CA MIX" power, which I assume is the
> mix of power sources in a typical California Grid. I am guessing that
> CA uses a lot of hydro?
>
> Anyone know any sources for finding out the generation mix in other
> areas? I've already contacted my utility, with little result.
>
>
>
> Lawrence Lile, P.E., LEED AP
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of ohnojoe
> Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 5:44 AM
> To: [email protected]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [BULK] Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
> Importance: Low
>
> Here is the info from eaaev.
> http://www.eaaev.org/Forms-Docs/eaaflyer-autoemissions.pdf
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 1:50 AM
> Subject: Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Storm Connors wrote:
Would using a solid state relay solve the welding of contacts problem created
when using the heater motor input into the control side of the relay?
It could. Most commercial solid state relays have a little circuit
inside that makes them "snap" solidly on at one voltage, and "off" at
another.
But a few cheap ones, and some of the circuits published in application
notes and by do-it-yourselfers don't do this. You'd have to check for
this feature.
Also be aware that 99% of the solid state relays are for AC only. Make
sure the one you pick is explicitly rated to switch DC loads, and of a
high enough voltage for your worst-case maximum pack voltage.
Personally, I wouldn't trust a solid state relay to be the only thing
switching my heater to the pack. Solid state switches fail ON!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Lile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 8:51 AM
Subject: RE: [BULK] Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
> Hmm - this doesn't pass the smell test. What are they doing to
> eliminate 99% of carbon emissions from a coal plant? I can believe 99%
> of SO2, Mercury, and other nasties - but CO2?
>
> Lawrence Lile, P.E., LEED AP
By installing a billion dollars of equipment to clean it up, which we want
if they want to build it, but they only want to install half a billion now
which will not do it, so we told them to forget about it.
So now they came up with installing acres of wind generator plants to
further reduce the yearly emission rates.
We already have about 200 of these wind generators already and the area will
look like a forest.
Roland
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Roland Wiench
> Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 8:45 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [BULK] Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
> Importance: Low
>
> Here in Montana, they are planning to install two coal fire plants. One
> is
> a standard unit which they said it will clean up 99% of the CO2
> emissions,
> but that leaves several 1000 tons of CO2 emissions per year. We do not
> want
> this unit here yet even though they are going to use many 300 foot high
> wind
> power generators to power it.
>
> The other unit, is a process that turns the coal into a fuel liquid that
> can
> either run the plant or even turn it to a fuel to run a vehicle. There
> is
> only one other plant like this which is in Wyoming.
>
> It is to be 99.99% emission free, which is still 100 lbs of emissions
> per
> year which includes 10 lbs of mercury!
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 1:41 AM
> Subject: Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
>
>
> > There are also plans to "sequester" the CO2 emissions from fossil fuel
> > power plants. If this is for real, then fossil fuel power plant
> > emissions are near zero while automotive gasoline remains unchanged.
> >
> > However, the practice of sequestering is not currently widespread and
> > there are serious questions as to whether the basic principle is
> > scientifically valid or merely an industrial scam to circumvent
> > environmental regulations.
> >
> > Danny
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > >These figures p[roably are correct, but are a worse case scenario and
>
> > >don't
> > >take several other factors into account.....there is no age to the
> > >figures,
> > >and due to the fact that , presumably, the US is slowly
> inmplementing a
> > >renweable energy policy the lb/kwh for 'US Power' is going to be
> > >continually
> > >reducing....add to that the fact that more coal fired stations are
> being
> > >converted
> > >to run on gas, or they at least should be, this figure for CO2 from
> US
> > >Power
> > >is one that Americans should not necessarily dispute but instead hold
> it
> > >up
> > >to the governemnt declaring it to be disgraceful.........and be
> careful
> > >that
> > >they don't start taxing you for CO2 production
> > >
> > >Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
> > >Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) >
> > >MIME-Version: 1.0
> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> > >
> > >Without quoting accurate sources for all the numbers given, blogs
> like
> > >this are just one more persons unsubstantiated opinion.
> > >
> > >Mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>"A electric car charging from a coal powered grid ( 2.177 lbs
> C02/kwh)
> > >>would generate twice the C02 per mile over a new low emissions IC
> car.
> > >>If you lived in a nuclear or wind / hydro generated area a grid
> charged
> > >>EV car would generate 10 times less C02 per mile then in a coal
> powered
> > >>area and 1/5 the C02 of a IC vehicle."
> > >>
> > >>"These high C02 numbers for a EV were a complete surprise to me.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Carl,
Include on your list all the railroad and truck tank cars that burn. In
today's news another train derailed and
thousands of gallons of petroleum burned. That's the second incident of
that type in about 2 weeks.
John in Sylmar, CA PV-EV conversion
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Storm Connors wrote:
I thought that if they weren't fully charged they would lose capacity
-- like a memory effect. Is this not true? Also for shallow discharges.
First, the real "memory effect" is a relic of early nicad batteries.
They "remembered" their deepest discharge, and would drop under 1v (per
1.2v cell) if you went past that point. The full rated capacity was
still there -- but at 1v instead of 1.2v. This voltage dropoff would
falsely trigger the "dead battery" shutoff circuit so you wouldn't
discharge them any deeper. And this meant you stopped there again, on
every cycle.
All you had to do to avoid the memory effect is to occasionally fully
discharge to a lower "dead" voltage, like 0.9v. On subsequent cycles,
the voltage would then remain over 1.2v until the cell really was fully
discharged.
Modern nicads don't have this memory effect. Neither do any other modern
batteries, of any chemistry. But "memory effect" has become a part of
battery mythology, and is now an urban legend. Nowdays, anything that
gives you less capacity than what you expected is blindly attributed to
memory effect.
Lead-acid batteries do have some peculiarities that some people call
memory effect. But they would be better described as "exercise effect."
1. If a lead acid battery has been sitting idle a long time (weeks),
then its capacity is low, and its internal resistance is high
when first put back into service. On each charge/discharge cycle,
its performance will improve. The number of cycles it takes to get
back to normal depends on how long it sat idle. It behaves like a
person who hasn't be exercising for a while; it takes a while to
get back into shape.
2. Lead acid batteries last the longest if you avoid overcharging.
Gross overcharging will kill it quick! Chronic overcharging will
slowly kill it over time. But judicious amounts of overcharging
(a little extra, once in a while) is called "equalizing" or
"balancing", and will improve battery life. So, it is fine not
to fully recharge every day; just be sure you do fully recharge
once in a while; often enough so you don't get large voltage
differences between cells.
Think of it like eating: Grossly overeat and you die quickly!
Overeat every day, and you die young. Never overeat, and you live
a long time, but are chronically hungry and obsess about food. So
eat sensibly, and feast once in a while for a long, happy life.
3. The shallower the discharge, the longer a lead acid battery lasts.
Deep discharges kill them early. In general, you get the largest
total miles out of a lead acid pack by discharging it about 50%
on each cycle (maximizes the number of cycle x miles per cycle).
Depth of discharge is also the "exercise" mentioned in #1 above.
If you never discharge it very far, the battery gets a bit lazy.
A typical ICE battery lives this life; it never has to deliver
power for more than a few seconds (to start the engine), and is
then recharged for an hour or so. It would be a pretty easy life
for a battery if it weren't for the high under-hood temperatures
and bad charging it gets.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
