EV Digest 6271
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) direct drive (basic questions)
by "Jonathan Perret" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) New Sentra , WAS new EV business
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: new EV business
by "Hacker Joel-QA6240" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Does this SMELL of CONTROL ??
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Surplus Capacitors - Was: Joe Sixpack Geo: best controller...
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: LogiSystems controller ?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: direct drive (basic questions)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: DC to DC converter - why isn't it just a big transformer?
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: direct drive (basic questions)
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Unsafe Controllers
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: direct drive (basic questions)
by Suren Balendran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Getting Subaru to do a Plug-in Hybrid
by Robert Lemke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: direct drive (basic questions)
by "Dave Wilker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: New Sentra , WAS new EV business
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: New Sentra , WAS new EV business
by "Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: new EV business
by "gary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: direct drive (basic questions)
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Unsafe Controllers
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: New Sentra , WAS new EV business
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Unsafe Controllers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: direct drive (basic questions)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: new EV business
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Circuit Breaker and Contactor
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I'm curious to understand how much work is involved in
converting an ICE car (VW Beetle for instance) into an electric vehicle
that has the wheeels driven directly by motors on each wheel
rather than via the existing transaxle...
for example how do you mate the motor shaft to the wheel hubs for say the
front wheels which previously (as an ICE car) weren't driven, just rolled.
thanks,
Jonathan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVerybody;
Stealing the thread here, as I have a EVer growing yard full of EV
wannabees. Looking for a bit of feedback on doing a 97 Sentra, which I have
a clean example in the garage. I'm fitting it with a Warp 9" Impulse motor,
the shortened 9" job.Was thinking of a 72 volt system with Alltrax'es
BIGGEST 450 amp controller. I don't want to make a Lead Sled out of it, or a
tire schorcher. Somewhere in between? 72 volts on a 9" motor it should be
able to loaf along, limited only by the Alltrax amps. By using all the gears
all the time, It should be able to keep up with off- Turnpike traffic?
Alltrax controllers are a here now, thing, call then and it's a " How
many would ya like?" thing. He, Steve, there said that guyz are going with
TWO motors and controllers, for 900 amps, enoughh to break any battery's
back!Anybody here doing this?Could you hook two Alltrax up to the same motor
for more amps, like I guess paralleling them? Would they play well together,
fed the same signals from two pots?Or one?This would be cheaper1000k or so
than a Curset or Zilla.
OK Sports fans; Slipping inyto my flame proof suit, what do ya think? A
72 volt Sentra, as above?Only 12 batteri, at replacement time, sounds good.
Gees! I was quoted about 80 bux for a T-105 equivelent. Batterey prices are
going through the roof! Anybody gotten any at Sam's Klub for 40, lately??
Seeya at BBB?
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 8:55 PM
Subject: RE: new EV business
> Gary wrote:
SNIP
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Would it be more advisable to open a shop and do conversions,
or work with the EV parts folks on development or even
support of new product?
Examples: doing testing, manufacturing, assembly and support
for Otmar,
Or development work on Madman's new Medium voltage DC Controller??
Mabye even working with metric mind of development and support
of AC Drives???
Just curious what the possibilities are out there...been thinking
about something like that myself, but I live in Chicago and not
in the NW (Washington or Oregon).
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Roden
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 4:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: new EV business
On 3 Jan 2007 at 18:13, damon henry wrote:
> Seriously, if people were interested in paying $30K for a brand new
> Honda Fit, Honda would be selling them for that much.
A few years ago I would have agreed. Now I'm not so sure.
I was really surprised at the interest in EVs when gasoline prices
touched
$3 a gallon. I hadn't expected that, and I think one reason is that
there were factors beyond the price itself.
Recall that Solectria offered the Force at around $30K back in 1992.
That was at a time when a new Metro cost well under $10K, if I'm not
mistaken.
The spread here isn't nearly as wide, and plenty of small cars have
exceeded the $20K mark. The Fit is also a better car by far than the
Geo Metro was.
That said, I wonder whether he can really do it for $30k. That's quite
an ambitious goal, even without making a profit.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVerybody;
Yeah! Steve, that's what ran through MY mind, too.IF, and as Bill Dube
has shown, the a123's look promising, will they be buried like the Nhm's of
Chevron?Where are the Trustbusters when we NEED them?
Seeya at BBB
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Lough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 4:21 PM
Subject: Does this SMELL of CONTROL ??
> Cobasys and A123Systems Announce Partnership to Develop Lithium Ion
> Hybrid Electric Vehicle Battery Systems.. ( HUMMMmmmmmm ? ? )
>
> Remember Cobasy = Chevron and Energy Conversion Devices, Inc.
>
> The thing I worry about is that they can now... SLOW Down the
> development... OR keep it off the market altogether. Or just keep the
> prices up there out of reach of small folks and small EV builders.
>
> Below is the LINK to the whole article...
>
>
>
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/01-03-2007/0004498758&EDATE=
>
> --
> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> Seattle EV Association
> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> Day: 206 850-8535
> Eve: 206 524-1351
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: http://www.seattleeva.org
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.16.4/615 - Release Date: 1/3/07
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm glad you asked Bruce. http://www.excesssolutions.com/ Excess Solutions
is my favorite place to go hunting parts. On top of a great wearhouse they
are also on line. If you can't find what you want there I'm sure you can
find something elsewhere like Electronic Goldmine. Lawrence Rhodes.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 1:33 PM
Subject: Surplus Capacitors - Was: Joe Sixpack Geo: best controller...
> Can you tell me where you bought the really big surplus capacitors or
where
> I might look for them?
>
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > You
> > can buy surplus really big capacitors cheap. I sold my capacitors with
my
> > truck containing the scr controller. It was a good running truck except
> for
> > the 40 mile max range. With the capacitors I'd bet it would do 60
miles.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm running a 144v 700 amp version. First one fried. They replaced it. No
problems so far. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eduardo Kaftanski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 3:28 PM
Subject: LogiSystems controller ?
>
> I just read about LogiSystems controllers... From their web page they
> look too good to be true.
>
> Are they?
>
>
> --
> Eduardo K. | Some say it's forgive and forget.
> http://www.carfun.cl | I say forget about forgiving just accept.
> http://e.nn.cl | And get the hell out of town.
> | Minnie Driver, Grosse Point
Blank
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The hard part isn't mating the motor to the wheels, the hard part is
finding a motor that will work.
This application requires a low RPM motor with HUGE torque. I'm not aware
of anyone that sells a motor like this for less than $10,000 a pop (not
including controller)
If you are going to be spending that much money, you might as well go with
an NGM wheel motor (motor is inside the wheel). It's only a little bit
more expensive.
> I'm curious to understand how much work is involved in
> converting an ICE car (VW Beetle for instance) into an electric vehicle
> that has the wheeels driven directly by motors on each wheel
> rather than via the existing transaxle...
>
> for example how do you mate the motor shaft to the wheel hubs for say the
> front wheels which previously (as an ICE car) weren't driven, just rolled.
>
> thanks,
>
> Jonathan
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland, thanks for the tip, I did notice the stamped-steel front plate
didn't have a tight fit to the can and found that unusual for a motor
since this plate holds the rotor in place.
My plan for the AC compressor is to drive it directly so no side load
from a belt, but perhaps making an aluminum coupler that replaces the
stamped steel plate is a good idea.
Jack
Roland Wiench wrote:
In mounting this type of treadmill motor, it is best to mounted a
reinforcing plate to the front large flange that holds the bearing. The
force in one direction apply to the motor shaft, will provide wear on this
flange until the rotor will hit the fields.
Our local motor shop replace 100's of these motors, instead of rebuilding
them because the front flange collaspes to one side which is weaken by the
air flow holes in this flange.
I am installing a 1/4 inch aluminum plate on the face with holes for air
flow and another 1/4 inch plate behind this motor flange that is tight
fitting against the body of the motor.
Ran two of these motors on my test bench in series on 180 volts battery pack
which drop the voltage to each motor to 89.9 volts at 18.5 amps.
The load I use is a 63 amp alternator that has been converted to 110 vdc
which I can switch in a 120V resistance load such as heater coils or lamps.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 12:27 AM
Subject: Re: DC to DC converter - why isn't it just a big transformer?
To not answer the question but solve the problem, you can buy permanent
magnet treadmill motors that will run on 160vdc, surpluscenter.com has a
2.5hp motor for $22,
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2007010301284115&item=10-1783&catname=electric
I bought one recently to run an AC compressor, they are brand new and
look good.
Jack
Dave Wilker wrote:
A transformer will only work while the field is collapsing or expanding,
such as when AC changes polarity, or if the primary coil current is
being shut off and on (points).
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jake Oshins"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 3:33 PM
Subject: DC to DC converter - why isn't it just a big transformer?
I'm looking for a little basic education here. Why isn't a DC to DC
converter as simple as a big transformer?
Is it because building a transformer for 200VDC+ is prohibitive, either
for cost or weight?
Is it because we want a well-regulated output voltage?
I ask because I'm looking at making the existing power steering pump
work in my conversion project and I'm looking at using various surplus
motors that run on voltages significantly smaller than my pack voltage.
Using my fancy DC/DC converter to drive a 12V motor would use a lot of
its capacity for this task and I don't really care if the voltage this
aux motor runs on is well-regulated.
Thanks for any replies,
Jake Oshins
P.S. My main traction motor has only one output shaft, so running the
power steering pump from it would be difficult, though not impossible.
That's why I'm looking for other alternatives.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jonathan,
If putting the power plant in each wheel is such a great idea, why don't they
put gas engines in each wheel? Seems like the logical place to put it.
Electric motors, like ICEs, present difficulties when applied to the wheel.
Many have tried it. You often can see articles where GM or Mitsubishi has a
prototype. But try to find where you can buy such a motor or motor-wheel
package. So, how much work is involved? Plenty. And it is costly. It is a
product everybody would love to have but nobody can deliver.
Jeff
Jonathan Perret <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'm curious to understand how much work is involved in
converting an ICE car (VW Beetle for instance) into an electric vehicle
that has the wheeels driven directly by motors on each wheel
rather than via the existing transaxle...
for example how do you mate the motor shaft to the wheel hubs for say the
front wheels which previously (as an ICE car) weren't driven, just rolled.
thanks,
Jonathan
---------------------------------
Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I find it interesting that a DC motor controller is so unsafe that it
must be completely disabled every time you release the go pedal. That
really says something.
Which controllers have failed several times?
Jack
BTW, I always put a Contactor on the high throttle peddle ( conversions I've done since the 70's)
with a pre-charge resistor across the contacts for the bulk caps in the controller.
> If the controller fails fully on
> (which has happenned to me several times over the years)
> my first reacvtion is to pop my foot off the accelerator
> peddle which kills the controller.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
Is it not possibe to design a gear box that sits inbetween the motor and
wheel drive flange that increases the output torque? i am looking to do
somthing similar with two Lynch 200mm motors. Specs can be found here:
http://www.agnimotors.com/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5&Itemid=36
I plan to use the motor at 96V. It is more complicated that is true but just
think, one of these motors in each wheel will give more then enough power and
all the space saved in the car can be used to house batteries...
try this link and look under technology....http://www.eliica.com/
Suren
Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Jonathan,
If putting the power plant in each wheel is such a great idea, why don't they
put gas engines in each wheel? Seems like the logical place to put it. Electric
motors, like ICEs, present difficulties when applied to the wheel. Many have
tried it. You often can see articles where GM or Mitsubishi has a prototype.
But try to find where you can buy such a motor or motor-wheel package. So, how
much work is involved? Plenty. And it is costly. It is a product everybody
would love to have but nobody can deliver.
Jeff
Jonathan Perret wrote:
I'm curious to understand how much work is involved in
converting an ICE car (VW Beetle for instance) into an electric vehicle
that has the wheeels driven directly by motors on each wheel
rather than via the existing transaxle...
for example how do you mate the motor shaft to the wheel hubs for say the
front wheels which previously (as an ICE car) weren't driven, just rolled.
thanks,
Jonathan
---------------------------------
Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have 4 Subie owners in my family. Sent them this petition.
Bob
Joseph Lado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I heard that Subaru is working on a hybrid system in its early stages. Paul
Scott of Plug-In America has asked people to sign a petition to show Subaru
that a plug-in hybrid would be some thing that people would be willing to buy.
Can I ask you people to help? I want the list on the petition to go over 1000
names before the weekend. This kind of petition helps prove that there is
strong demand for EVs and EV like vehicles. Please help me by going to
http://www.petitiononline.com/subarupi/petition.html and signing the petition.
Also, so I can figure out which of the list serves and blog spots participates
the most, put in the comment section EVList. Thank you for all your help.
Currently the people on the Daily Kos are the strongest participants. Let's
show them that this list is stronger when it comes to EVs and plug-ins. Thank
you for all you can do. Sincerely, Joseph Lado
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The REAL Hummers (HMMWVs) use a gear reduction at the hub. This gives them
torque multiplication and extra ground clearance. Just bop on down to the
local Pick'n Pull and get you some.
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Suren Balendran" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: direct drive (basic questions)
Hi All,
Is it not possibe to design a gear box that sits inbetween the motor and
wheel drive flange that increases the output torque? i am looking to do
somthing similar with two Lynch 200mm motors. Specs can be found here:
http://www.agnimotors.com/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5&Itemid=36
I plan to use the motor at 96V. It is more complicated that is true but
just think, one of these motors in each wheel will give more then enough
power and all the space saved in the car can be used to house batteries...
try this link and look under technology....http://www.eliica.com/
Suren
Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Jonathan,
If putting the power plant in each wheel is such a great idea, why don't
they put gas engines in each wheel? Seems like the logical place to put
it. Electric motors, like ICEs, present difficulties when applied to the
wheel. Many have tried it. You often can see articles where GM or
Mitsubishi has a prototype. But try to find where you can buy such a motor
or motor-wheel package. So, how much work is involved? Plenty. And it is
costly. It is a product everybody would love to have but nobody can
deliver.
Jeff
Jonathan Perret wrote:
I'm curious to understand how much work is involved in
converting an ICE car (VW Beetle for instance) into an electric vehicle
that has the wheeels driven directly by motors on each wheel
rather than via the existing transaxle...
for example how do you mate the motor shaft to the wheel hubs for say the
front wheels which previously (as an ICE car) weren't driven, just rolled.
thanks,
Jonathan
---------------------------------
Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bob,
No - controllers in parallel don't play nice, unless they are
designed to do so, but I have not seen any that have a
master/slave or synchronisation control to fire at the same time.
All battery prices have been raised last year due to the
price of raw lead going through the roof...
My supplier sent me a nice reminder before raising prices, so
I was warned in case I were ready to buy - at the old price.
No new battery purchase planned here, but I forwarded the
warnings to the list, in case others were ready and would like
to avoid the price hike.
Soon our batteries will be more valuable than when we bought
them ;-) - invest in a lead sled now - grin.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Bob Rice
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 8:12 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: New Sentra , WAS new EV business
Hi EVerybody;
Stealing the thread here, as I have a EVer growing yard full of EV
wannabees. Looking for a bit of feedback on doing a 97 Sentra, which I have
a clean example in the garage. I'm fitting it with a Warp 9" Impulse motor,
the shortened 9" job.Was thinking of a 72 volt system with Alltrax'es
BIGGEST 450 amp controller. I don't want to make a Lead Sled out of it, or a
tire schorcher. Somewhere in between? 72 volts on a 9" motor it should be
able to loaf along, limited only by the Alltrax amps. By using all the gears
all the time, It should be able to keep up with off- Turnpike traffic?
Alltrax controllers are a here now, thing, call then and it's a " How
many would ya like?" thing. He, Steve, there said that guyz are going with
TWO motors and controllers, for 900 amps, enoughh to break any battery's
back!Anybody here doing this?Could you hook two Alltrax up to the same motor
for more amps, like I guess paralleling them? Would they play well together,
fed the same signals from two pots?Or one?This would be cheaper1000k or so
than a Curset or Zilla.
OK Sports fans; Slipping inyto my flame proof suit, what do ya think? A
72 volt Sentra, as above?Only 12 batteri, at replacement time, sounds good.
Gees! I was quoted about 80 bux for a T-105 equivelent. Batterey prices are
going through the roof! Anybody gotten any at Sam's Klub for 40, lately??
Seeya at BBB?
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 8:55 PM
Subject: RE: new EV business
> Gary wrote:
SNIP
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
RE: Battery price hike. It's been said that car batteries are the most
successfully recycled item to date. How can the price of lead (if recycled)
affect the cost of batteries? Inflation is inevitable, but....
Don Davidson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.elecars.spaces.live.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 12:36 PM
Subject: RE: New Sentra , WAS new EV business
> Hi Bob,
>
> No - controllers in parallel don't play nice, unless they are
> designed to do so, but I have not seen any that have a
> master/slave or synchronisation control to fire at the same time.
>
> All battery prices have been raised last year due to the
> price of raw lead going through the roof...
> My supplier sent me a nice reminder before raising prices, so
> I was warned in case I were ready to buy - at the old price.
> No new battery purchase planned here, but I forwarded the
> warnings to the list, in case others were ready and would like
> to avoid the price hike.
> Soon our batteries will be more valuable than when we bought
> them ;-) - invest in a lead sled now - grin.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Bob Rice
> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 8:12 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: New Sentra , WAS new EV business
>
>
> Hi EVerybody;
>
> Stealing the thread here, as I have a EVer growing yard full of EV
> wannabees. Looking for a bit of feedback on doing a 97 Sentra, which I
have
> a clean example in the garage. I'm fitting it with a Warp 9" Impulse
motor,
> the shortened 9" job.Was thinking of a 72 volt system with Alltrax'es
> BIGGEST 450 amp controller. I don't want to make a Lead Sled out of it, or
a
> tire schorcher. Somewhere in between? 72 volts on a 9" motor it should be
> able to loaf along, limited only by the Alltrax amps. By using all the
gears
> all the time, It should be able to keep up with off- Turnpike traffic?
>
> Alltrax controllers are a here now, thing, call then and it's a " How
> many would ya like?" thing. He, Steve, there said that guyz are going with
> TWO motors and controllers, for 900 amps, enoughh to break any battery's
> back!Anybody here doing this?Could you hook two Alltrax up to the same
motor
> for more amps, like I guess paralleling them? Would they play well
together,
> fed the same signals from two pots?Or one?This would be cheaper1000k or so
> than a Curset or Zilla.
>
> OK Sports fans; Slipping inyto my flame proof suit, what do ya think? A
> 72 volt Sentra, as above?Only 12 batteri, at replacement time, sounds
good.
> Gees! I was quoted about 80 bux for a T-105 equivelent. Batterey prices
are
> going through the roof! Anybody gotten any at Sam's Klub for 40, lately??
>
> Seeya at BBB?
>
> Bob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 8:55 PM
> Subject: RE: new EV business
>
>
> > Gary wrote:
> SNIP
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Would it be more advisable to open a shop and do conversions,
or work with the EV parts folks on development or even
support of new product?
Examples: doing testing, manufacturing, assembly and support
for Otmar,
Or development work on Madman's new Medium voltage DC Controller??
Mabye even working with metric mind of development and support
of AC Drives???
Just curious what the possibilities are out there...been thinking
about something like that myself, but I live in Chicago and not
in the NW (Washington or Oregon).
- I'm a big believer in teamwork and would rather partner with
like-minded people. It seems there's not a lot of money in this right
now (but good potential) and people are working hard to make slow
progress. There are a lot of people trying to invent the same wheel(s)
so it may be advantageous to reduce duplicate efforts and collaborate.
It can be difficult to do on-line but possible. This is a community
that seems willing to share information, and there are a lot of very
smart people here. If anyone could use remote support for R&D or any
other efforts, feel free to email me and we can discuss it.
Gary (gkrysztopik at satx.rr.com)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A way to acheive this is to have an outer ring gear and multiple smaller
motors that drive the ring gear, and thus you can gear them to get the
torque needed and have room because they are small motors on the
perimeter of the axle.
So you attach this to the axle which is fixed to not move, and the wheel
bolts to the ring gear. Jack's patent number 8287732332343234432234
Available in 2008 for $2,500 each, only $10,000 per car, three wheelers
get a 25% off sale. :)
And btw, I recall a guy in the AZ desert built a gas powered version of
this, where the ring gear was inverted and essentially acted as pistons,
simpler but similiar to a radial motor without a crankshaft which I
believe was his inspiration.
Jack
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
The hard part isn't mating the motor to the wheels, the hard part is
finding a motor that will work.
This application requires a low RPM motor with HUGE torque. I'm not aware
of anyone that sells a motor like this for less than $10,000 a pop (not
including controller)
If you are going to be spending that much money, you might as well go with
an NGM wheel motor (motor is inside the wheel). It's only a little bit
more expensive.
I'm curious to understand how much work is involved in
converting an ICE car (VW Beetle for instance) into an electric vehicle
that has the wheeels driven directly by motors on each wheel
rather than via the existing transaxle...
for example how do you mate the motor shaft to the wheel hubs for say the
front wheels which previously (as an ICE car) weren't driven, just rolled.
thanks,
Jonathan
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jack and all,
Jack Murray wrote:
I find it interesting that a DC motor controller is so unsafe that it
must be completely disabled every time you release the go pedal. That
really says something.
I think one very important thing to understand about DC motor
controllers used in hobbyist EV conversions is that while some were
designed explicitly for on-road EV use (i.e. Zilla, Raptor/T-Rex) many
DC controllers used over the years were *never* designed for or intended
to be used in this application (i.e. Curtis *, GE EV-1).
Realizing this fact, your statement above seems a lot more like FUD than
an accurate reflection of DC motor controllers in EV use. Perhaps a more
realistic statement would be "I find it interesting that a DC motor
controller **used out of its intended application** is so unsafe that it
must be completely disabled every time you release the go pedal."
My 0.333 kWh,
--
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
http://www.ACEAA.org/
--------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4 Jan 2007 at 12:44, Don wrote:
> How can the price of lead (if recycled)
> affect the cost of batteries?
Increased demand for all forms of lead, including recycled lead, raises the
price. From what I understand, battery mfgs don't usually do their own
recycling (a lot of it is done in South America and Asia where labor is
cheap and environmental laws lax), so they have to buy the recycled lead
like everyone else.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack Murray wrote:
I find it interesting that a DC motor controller is so unsafe that it
must be completely disabled every time you release the go pedal. That
really says something.
It's not that a controller is unsafe; it's just that the consequences of
a failure can be very bad. Therefore, good design practice requires that
you do things to make it fail "safe" (i.e. off, not on).
Now, safety is something most people don't want to think about, or spend
money on. So they opt for the cheapest simplest solutions possible. A
physical switch (relay, contactor, circuit breaker, etc.) is often the
first idea that comes to mind.
You'll find this sort of safety switch on almost all consumer products
where "stuck on" can cause problems. For example, furnace controls
always have redundant relays. My stereo even has a relay that doesn't
turn on to connect the speakers until after it is sure an output
transistor isn't shorted; this protects expensive speakers.
Most of the time, people are completely unaware that these safety
circuits are present and working. It's just that in this case, you are
wiring the controller yourself, and so *are* aware of it. It's no
different than telling folks that they need fuses in case there's a
short, or overtemperature cutouts in case something gets too hot.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Suren Balendran wrote:
Is it not possible to design a gear box that sits in between the
motor and wheel drive flange that increases the output torque?
It is not only possible; it is the only practical way to do it, and how
it is being done in millions of vehicles!
I am looking to do something similar with two Lynch 200mm motors.
The Lynch motors are not particularly strong, so you have to watch out
for damage from excessive vibration from the wheel, and from excessive
current due to high torque requirements.
You can use a controller with current limiting to keep motor current
within reason so it won't overheat. You may have to mount the motor
inboard, and connect it to the wheel with a shaft and universal joints
if the shock loads of the wheel when it hits potholes etc. is too much
for it.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In general working to fill an existing expanding demand from the public
(like conversions) is always more successful than trying to create new
thing. Usually innovators fail and have their innovations picked up by
the fullfillers when the demand for the innovation has grown to the
point of NEED..
(Example microsoft bought DOS from an innovator and made it success
after the need from ibm had arisen. The innovator who wrote DOS before
the broad need was there is still poor)
That holds true in almost every business except ones where the goal is
to make money from investors in your startup rather than from the actual
sales of products.
On Thu, 4 Jan 2007 11:45 am, Hacker Joel-QA6240 wrote:
Would it be more advisable to open a shop and do conversions,
or work with the EV parts folks on development or even
support of new product?
Examples: doing testing, manufacturing, assembly and support
for Otmar,
Or development work on Madman's new Medium voltage DC Controller??
Mabye even working with metric mind of development and support
of AC Drives???
Just curious what the possibilities are out there...been thinking
about something like that myself, but I live in Chicago and not
in the NW (Washington or Oregon).
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Roden
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 4:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: new EV business
On 3 Jan 2007 at 18:13, damon henry wrote:
Seriously, if people were interested in paying $30K for a brand new
Honda Fit, Honda would be selling them for that much.
A few years ago I would have agreed. Now I'm not so sure.
I was really surprised at the interest in EVs when gasoline prices
touched
$3 a gallon. I hadn't expected that, and I think one reason is that
there were factors beyond the price itself.
Recall that Solectria offered the Force at around $30K back in 1992.
That was at a time when a new Metro cost well under $10K, if I'm not
mistaken.
The spread here isn't nearly as wide, and plenty of small cars have
exceeded the $20K mark. The Fit is also a better car by far than the
Geo Metro was.
That said, I wonder whether he can really do it for $30k. That's quite
an ambitious goal, even without making a profit.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As others have pointed out: breakers wear out fast.
Once you start using a breaker as contactor, it is
no more reliable than a contactor - if the contactor
welds shut due to accidental switching under load, so
will a breaker in the same operation.
This defeats the whole purpose.
The SW200 is plenty for all but racing EVs.
Note that the max rating is usually the continuous
rating and no EV should draw more than 360A continuous
or else it will have a disappointing range and you
better find what sucks up all your energy.
My truck at freeway speeds draws 55A (60 MPH constant),
so I am not worried about the 100A max continuous
ON/OFF switch that was mounted in the battery box by
the conversion company US Electricar.
You can look in the archives, but I recall at least 6 or so
stories of different people with a runaway EV in the last
year, that is why it is good to have an additional safety
to kill the motor, in addition to the normal contactor that
is your first line of safety, but due to its daily operation
can weld shut in case of an error in your system. You do
not want to be left without safety due to the error in your
car, because the error can be the runaway situation.
Having a separate contactor and breaker means that the
breaker just sits there, waiting for either an over-current
situation or you pulling the wire to throw it OFF, so it
will never weld shut as it is never switched ON under load.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Jack Murray
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 7:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Circuit Breaker and Contactor
yes indeed I am eliminating the contactor by using electromechanics to
turn on/off the breaker. This is basically moving the precharge safety
check out of the controller itself and putting it in the on/off switch.
I'll have a microprocessor which gets an on/off signal (from the key
switch), and it does the automated checking, it turns on the precharge
and confirms there is not a short or load before it turns on the
breaker, perhaps turn on some leds to indicate stop, precharge, go.
It seems to me the breaker should never weld shut, it is designed
specifically not to fail in that way, otherwise, its value as a safety
device is rather diminished. A second breaker could be used for a
backup manual emergency off switch.
I've looked at the contactors available at evparts.com, and the SW200
just doesn't seem big enough with 360amps max, the SW201 at 450amps
seems OK, but it is $255, that seems rather expensive if it can be
eliminated, and it consumes 12v power while on (how much?) Of course
the electromechanics to turn on/off the breaker add cost, but its
something I can build. And using the surplus $30 breakers, the setup
would end up rather inexpensive as I see it.
Jack
Cor van de Water wrote:
> Hi Jack,
>
> You are trying to re-design a contactor with built-in breaker?
>
> Note that the functions of breaker and contactor are quite
> different, the contactor being an electrically controllable
> HV switch and the breaker being an automatic safety disconnect
> in case of overload, to protect wiring and other circuitry
> from destruction.
> I know several EV'ers who strung a wire through the breaker's
> handle eyelet, so from the dashboard you could open the breaker
> manually as an added security feature.
>
> The issue not yet addressed is the safety that is provided
> by using a combination of contactors and pre-charge, which can
> be used by your controller to avoid runaway conditions:
>
> 1. Before even closing any contactors, the controller can sense
> is there is HV on its input, which would indicate a welded
> contact, so the controller can refuse to start the motor, as
> it has no backup to break the current.
> (This can be mildly annoying if your controller is prone to
> faulting out or shutting the motor control off before the
> contactors drop, so the capacitors will stay charged for
> a while - I must wait 30 sec before I can re-start my EV)
>
> 2. After pre-charge contactor closing, the controller senses
> the voltage to see if it rises high enough to indicate the
> HV bus is not unexpectedly loaded, which can indicate one
> of the power components has failed. This will avoid a high
> current when the main contactor is closed, so it should
> never weld shut, allowing it to break in emergencies.
>
> 3. Controller *could* include a crow-bar feature, which will
> deliberately short-circuit the HV bus and rely on blowing
> the breaker or fuse open, if it detects a serious failure,
> such as a continuing current draw even after the contactor
> was dropped (indicating a weld-shut and runaway).
>
> Note that all these require the use of sensing and deciding
> to take a next step, which is best automated. It is possible
> to do this manually (as with a breaker) but it would be very
> prone to operator faults, you would need a kind of
> "pre-flight inspection list" to do the same as most modern
> controllers provide built-in.
> THe risk is that the driver will learn that simply throwing
> the breaker makes the car go, without going through the
> safety list, so better automate it, even if it occasionally
> can be annoying to see a fault detected - better avoid
> driving than encountering a runaway...
>
> Just my 2 contactor's worth,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Jack Murray
> Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 10:21 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Circuit Breaker and Contactor
>
>
> I've been looking at contactors, fuses, and circuit breakers, and had
> the idea of using a circuit breaker as a contactor by creating a setup
> that can switch the breaker on and off. This would eliminate the
> contactor as well as reduce the continuous power draw of the coil to it.
>
> I'm surprised this hasn't been done before or is offered as a product,
> so there must be some downside to it.
>
> It would turn on-off much slower than a contactor, so my guess is that
> might be an issue in general, but for a car, I don't see that as a
problem.
> In fact, I see a combination of a power-turn-on device that does a
> pre-charge to the controller and once complete will turn on the breaker.
> The breaker will still break if over-current, but then can be turned off
> electrically.
>
> Is there some issue I'm missing?
>
> Thanks,
> Jack
>
>
--- End Message ---
