EV Digest 6326
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: AC propulsion
by "Doug McKee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Xantrex Choice Model Redux
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Conversion costs never change?
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Newbie Question about AC Drives
by "Doug McKee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) I Need You to Blitz GM Like Never Before
by Joseph Lado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: super skinny/hard tires .. thin tyres in the 65 psi .. thinner tyres
in electric scooter
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Lower price (and available) configurations
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Conversion costs never change?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: I Need You to Blitz GM Like Never Before
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Conversion costs never change?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Quote... Though the EV1 was a resounding flop...why good models get
dropped/not pursued
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) EV1 .. a 'different' reason for its 'death'
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Sherry Boschert's "Plug-in Hybrids" Florida book tour, Jan 21-25
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Can mixed batteries nimh and lead acid lead to best of both worlds for
an electric vehicle?
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) EV, ICE weight comparisions RE: Conversion costs never change?
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: I Need You to Blitz GM Like Never Before
by "Fred Hartsell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Lower price (and available) configurations
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Opening the Curtis 1212B
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Blitz GM to build the Volt
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Lower price (and available) configurations
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Cor,
I think it answers the question regarding quality, but the Xb conversion
from ACP is $55,000 PLUS the cost of the Xb.
I'll have to wait for Ed McMahon's visit before I have one of those.
Doug McKee
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The meter will only measure 500A but not go higher, if you pull say
600 it will only read and compute against the max of 500A.
On Jan 19, 2007, at 10:28 PM, Brian M. Sutin wrote:
I got a Link-10, opened it up, and got on the phone with Xantrex. The
spot to solder on the right-angle DB-9 is completely obvious. The
alarm
wires are always run out on any recent Link-10. They have the alarm,
even if you didn't pay for it. The 1000A upgrade is in software,
so if
you want that, you will have to find someone with a Choice model and
transfer the software over with an eprom burner. What isn't clear is
if the Link-10 genuinely hits a rail at 500A, or if it just can't
display a value that high. Since I don't need more range than 500A, I
will leave that curiosity to somene else to fathom.
Apparently various Choice models have had different DB-9 connectors.
Some screwed into the case for support, some snapped in, some were
conmpletely plastic, some not. Either way, anyone doing the upgrade
will have to Dremel a DB9-shaped hole in the case for the connector.
Brian
Alfa Romeo Electric Conversion
http://www.skewray.com/alfa
--
Brian M. Sutin, Ph.D. Space System Engineering and Optical Design
Skewray Research/316 W Green St/Claremont CA 91711 USA/(909) 621-3122
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dale and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Conversion costs never change?
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 14:23:17 -0700
Lee wrote
>>Converting an existing ICE vehicle into an EV is an effort
>to find a "good" solution. Something that is relatively
>cheap, easy, and good enough to work as a daily driver. It
>is often based on expediency -- one happens to have a car
>with a dead engine, finds a used fork lift motor, uses golf
>cart batteries because they are easy to get, etc. DC
>systems fit this perfectly.
>
>>Building an EV from scratch is often a major project in
>search of "perfection". Cost, availability, or difficulty
>are not as important as performance.
>
>>If you want to produce EVs to sell, then you have decide
>which of these two routes to pursue. The golf cart and
>forklift manufacturers have gone after the "good" solution;
>cheap easy EVs that they can sell a lot of.
>
>>The auto companies' California EVs, the Tzero, Tesla,
>Tango, Venturi Fetish, etc. have pursued the "perfect"
>solution. For this reason, I don't think any of them can
>achieve anything close to mass production. They will sell
>perhaps a few hundred cars for collectors and afficionados;
>but this does nothing for the mass of drivers who want a
>"good" daily driver EV.
>
>
>The flip side of this is that there are many considerations
>that an DIY EV does not have to deal with, that a series
>production EV does. One is vehicle weight.
Huh? The reason conversions have a hard time geeting
good range is they are too heavy!! And for long range,
80-100 miles, you need 50% battery weight along with drag
reduction. And in a conversion, that's just not going to be
easy.
The only reason to do a conversion is to avoid building
the glider part of the EV, a large consideration.
As for GVW, you can increase it just as the car
companies do, by using heavier springs, axles in most
conversions without a problem.
But you are still saddled with at least 1,000lbs of
excess weight vs a built as an EV, of which you have to add
another 1,000 lbs of batteries to the coversion.
Or you can build a glider like the Sunrise which will
weigh about 1,000lbs + passengers so for 100 mile range, you
only need 1,200lbs of batts. That's just 20 T105's !! A
conversion would be lucky to get 1/2 that range.
No doubt a scratch built EV is not easy to do, except
for a wood/epoxy bodied one, but it can be done profitably
in composites with as little as 4 EV's to amortize the
tooling molds over.
Lead-acid
>batteries aren't the best for vehicle weight. Forklifts do
>not have a significant problem with vehicle weight.
>Forklifts have to ADD weight so they don't tip over. To put
>this in perspective, try to take an existing vehicle, and
>convert it to DC + lead acid, 60 to 100 miles of range,
>WITHOUT raising the weight of the vehicle over the original
>ICE. That is somewhat challenging. You might think this is
>not practical, but the real automobile designer needs to
>deal with it. Most smaller cars these days have a GVWR -
>curb weight of 300kg (660 lbs). From this, you need to add
>70 kg per passenger, and some weight for luggage, etc. Not
>a lot of space. Adding weight in the form of batteries
>makes everything else heavier and more expensive.
Yet my Freedom EV and the Sunrise weigh less to much
less than similar size ICE's. And that's with 100+ mile
range lead batts!! And the Sunrise could hold 50% more
batteries for even more range!!
>
>
>The various current AC EV drive system manufacturers have a
>few things that make their systems expensive. First, the
>motors are custom-wound and produced in low quantities.
>Price out a 10 to 15 HP 3-phase induction motor, and that
>is where the price should be for a vehicle 50kW motor. Next
>, they are all going to very high power levels. If the
>power levels are constrained to the levels of 150 amperes
>and 360 volts (50 kW), then the inverter and motor package,
>in mass production, would be somewhere around $2000. The
>cost hit to go to a 150 kW drive is somewhere around $1500
>when compared with a 50 kW drive.
I'll believe this when someone can sell me one at
the same price as a 28kw DC. I don't particularly want to
build a 10,000 rpm reduction with it's higher drag, pay for
3x's the silicon needed or the high voltage battery string,
regs, that's not cost effective. Could you even get 360vdc
worth of batts for $2k?
You may not be aware that to produce a 2 seat
sportwagon EV for $13k, you have to have the complete EV
motor/electronics, batts, ect, must cost under $2500.
Neither AC drive or high voltage strings of batts are going
to allow that. Can you show me one?
In fact, the high cost of AC drives, their high
voltage battery strings is why the EV's big auto did build
would never be successful except in expensive small
quanities.
So come out of fantasy land and get real. For
reasonable cost EV's that people can actually afford and
beat ICE's in total costs by a large amount, lower voltage
DC in a built as an EV is the only game in town and will be
for yrs to come.
Jerry Dycus
>
>-Dale
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just did a Google search for AC drives and there are a bunch of
providers.
http://motion-controls.globalspec.com/Industrial-Directory/AC_drive_truc
k
Is an AC drive a viable conversion idea for an EV?
AC Propulsion is pricey but it looks like the technology is in use in
multiple arenas so maybe it's not as expensive elsewhere.
Thanks in advance for your patience.
Doug McKee
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
GM put a survey on one of their web site asking people to
let them know whether they should build their plug-in series hybrid Volt. I
dont
know why the people Who Killed the Electric Car, would do this, but I am
planning to give them a big surprise. Right now the number of people who have
come to the site and voted for GM to make the Volt is close to 100,000. That is
right baby 100 Gs worth of people telling GM that they want what is in essence
an electric car that can go unlimited miles because it has a generator to
produce electricity to keep it going on long trips. Lets hammer this one home
for GM, its stock holders and its bankers. We want alternative fuel vehicles
that free us from foreign sources of energy. We hammer it home by showing
overwhelming
numbers on this survey. A hundred thousand votes telling them that there are
buyers out there for plug-in vehicles is darn hard thing to ignore.
We need to overwhelm them in their own survey to let them
know that demand is real and is huge. Go to the link below.
http://www.gm.com/company/gm_exp_live/events/naias_2007/index_flash.html?navID=3.0.1.1&seo=goo_volt
When at the site go to the lower part of the page and a
little to the left. Click on Vote for Volt Survey. Vote yes on both questions
if you believe that GM should make the Volt and if you would buy one.
Hopefully, their eyes will open to the big numbers on the
survey. Hopefully those numbers will lead them to do the right thing, the right
thing being to produce the Volt in sufficient numbers across the country so
that all of us who want one can buy one. And I mean buy. I am not leasing one.
You hear me GM.
Tell GM the halo effect doesnt begin until they produce
the vehicles in large numbers. And none of this stuff of producing a few
hundred and saying there is no demand crud.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
electric scooters being made and sold near my area have
larger dia but lesser thickness .. a bit wider than cycle
speed 40 kmph .. range 100km .. i need to check on makers
recommended tyre pressure
----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> And I'm sorry but tire choices and traction ARE relevent to ev design as
> the tradeoff between traction and efficiency is an important one.
___________________________________________________________
The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from
your Internet provider. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why on earth would you want to do this? It would be hugely expensive even
if your ideas would work, it would also have very short range.
Problems:
6V GC battteries can barely handle one controller. Using two controllers
on the same string will kill them quick.
With all that weight and the relatively poor aerodynamics (poor Cd AND
large frontal area), I think you'd be lucky to get 20 miles tange with
your proposed setup.
> I've been thinking about doing a full-size pickup conversion.
> (something like a Ford F-250).
> Starting out with a Z2K and Dual 11" motors would be nice, but is
> awfully expensive, and there is a hefty lead time. ($4500 + 2 * $2950).
> I was thinking of a 240V pack using 6V golf cart batteries.
> So, say I keep the same pack, but want a cheaper drive setup.
> I could use multiple smaller motors, and multiple smaller controllers.
> Say, Curtis 1221C + ADC L91-4003, $975 + $840. Thats 400A (max, I
> know, derate for continuous) at 120V.
> For the price of the Dual Motor Z2K setup, I could get 5 Curtis setups +
> extra.
>
> I would also need more contactors, multiple potboxes, etc... and
> (the hardest part) some kind of belt or chain drive to combine
> multiple motor shafts into 1 drive shaft.
>
> Say I went with 4 of the Curtis setups, I could split the pack into 2
> 120V packs, and hook up 2 curtis controllers to each.
> I would be keeping the manual transmission.
> Would this kind of setup give reasonable performance in a HEAVY
> vehicle? (probably around 7000lbs).
>
> What would 2 of the Curtis setups do in a vehicle like this?
>
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I
> dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry asked:
> Could you even get 360vdc worth of batts for $2k?
Sure, how many Ah?
For example the AGM 12V 35Ah UB12350 costs $35 in dealer
quantity of only $1000 orders, place a $10,000 order and
they go down to $26, delivered at your address of choice.
To get 360V, you need 30 of these, which will cost $1050 in
low quantity, $780 in higher volume.
Capacity of such a pack is 12 kWh, probably 7kWh usable so
range would be max 35 miles for a conversion at 200Wh/mi
and a ground-up EV could get up to 70 miles range from this
720lbs pack.
Someone with a US Electricar Prizm has used the 26 Ah version
UB12260 for his Prizm, because it needs the low profile to
fit in the battery box under the floor. US Electricar Prizm
uses 2 strings of 25 batteries, 300V and a total 52Ah.
15 kWh capacity and max 40 miles usable range.
My batteries also come from this same source, though I have a
truck conversion that some call "lead mine" using 26 UB121100
for 312V 110Ah 34kWh for 60 miles usable range.
(Prices according to the Oct 2006 pricelist from Universal
Power Group www.universalpowergroup.com/batteries/sla.aspx)
Does that help?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is now at 120,000 and is going up at more than a vote a second.
Roderick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lado" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 6:17 PM
Subject: I Need You to Blitz GM Like Never Before
GM put a survey on one of their web site asking people to
let them know whether they should build their plug-in series hybrid Volt. I
don't
know why the people Who Killed the Electric Car, would do this, but I am
planning to give them a big surprise. Right now the number of people who
have
come to the site and voted for GM to make the Volt is close to 100,000. That
is
right baby 100 Gs worth of people telling GM that they want what is in
essence
an electric car that can go unlimited miles because it has a generator to
produce electricity to keep it going on long trips. Let's hammer this one
home
for GM, its stock holders and its bankers. We want alternative fuel vehicles
that free us from foreign sources of energy. We hammer it home by showing
overwhelming
numbers on this survey. A hundred thousand votes telling them that there are
buyers out there for plug-in vehicles is darn hard thing to ignore.
We need to overwhelm them in their own survey to let them
know that demand is real and is huge. Go to the link below.
http://www.gm.com/company/gm_exp_live/events/naias_2007/index_flash.html?navID=3.0.1.1&seo=goo_volt
When at the site go to the lower part of the page and a
little to the left. Click on Vote for Volt Survey. Vote yes on both
questions
if you believe that GM should make the Volt and if you would buy one.
Hopefully, their eyes will open to the big numbers on the
survey. Hopefully those numbers will lead them to do the right thing, the
right
thing being to produce the Volt in sufficient numbers across the country so
that all of us who want one can buy one. And I mean buy. I am not leasing
one.
You hear me GM.
Tell GM the halo effect doesn't begin until they produce
the vehicles in large numbers. And none of this stuff of producing a few
hundred and saying there is no demand crud.
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 20 Jan 2007 at 20:37, jerryd wrote:
> you are still saddled with at least 1,000lbs of
> excess weight vs a built as an EV, of which you have to add
> another 1,000 lbs of batteries to the coversion.
Jerry,
It's unclear to me why a vehicle purpose built as an EV should lose 1000 lb
simply by virtue of being an EV. You don't need a transmission, but what
other source of excess weight do you lose?
It seems to me that the weight of conversion gliders is mainly a consequence
of their being designed for a comfortable ride, and a lack of interest on
the mfg's part in designing for minimal mass. Automakers could design a car
to be light regardless of its powerplant. I owned a 1965 Opel Kadett coupe
that tipped the scales at a bit over 1500lb, and this was without the aid of
computers to optimize body strength vs mass. It was darn roomy, too. I
sometimes wish I still had it as I think it would make an outstanding
conversion. (Over the ensuing years Kadetts gained weight as did many cars,
but I expect that anything up to about '67 would make a most interesting
glider.)
I believe the early Geo Metros (pre-1990) were in the same weight class.
There have been several other European (and possibly Asian) minicars in the
well-under-2000lb range. Again many of these have porked out in recent
years as customers have demanded (or at least mfgs have offered) more luxury
items. But perhaps one of our UK correspondents will have some other
examples of potential gliders in a similar weight class.
Of course the problem is that those small cars aren't imported to the US, so
they can't be used for conversions.
There are certainly other substantial advantages to a purpose-built vehicle,
particularly in battery deployment and powertrain optimization. But I
really don't see how designing a car to be an EV can automatically make it
1000lb lighter.
Perhaps you could offer some specific figures to show how this is possible,
with all other things being equal - meaning equal size, comfort, absence of
road noise, etc.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Lough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Why the Heck do you think all those lease's were out there in the rain
> protesting about the loss of their cars if they thought the "car was a
FLOP"
my 'different' reasons for the recall and discontinuing of GM's EV1
looks relevant to this too
there are some extreme and absurd events that i came across which
need to be understood as ground realities
1. an extremely good pc was not develped by HP into it's logical successor
HP today has become a printer making company despite its enormous
success of the LX200 palmtop pc of the mid 1990's
2. a company making good fans went out of business .. their fans were too
good !
3. a company making poor quality cars in 1960's is STILL making those poor
quality cars in 2007 ! the car sells ! and the company still
survies/thrives !
sometimes, the company that makes a product and is highly profitable selling
that product is itself the one that needs to kill it's next design .. since
that
will translate into much lesser profits ..
businesses are in the business of making profits and making shareholders
happy
businesses are NOT in the business of making better products which will
result
in lesser profit .. or even shutting down of the business itself .. just
because some
other company will be able to make the new design much cheaper (refer to
shifting
of manufacture to chinese makers .. including ibm pc's ! .. now they are
"lenovo")
it will always be a paradox why businesses won't make the better product
___________________________________________________________
Try the all-new Yahoo! Mail. "The New Version is radically easier to use" The
Wall Street Journal
http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
the video for GM's 'killing' the EV1 is a recorded reality
the thing that struck me with a wham is the explanation by
a senior team member about GM not being ONE single large
entity but a collective of many small ones .. with the EV1 team
being a special group which made a wonderful car
there is also clear mention of the strong arguments and
crticisms/comments by other groups under the GM fold ..
i feel that the sad result of the numerous lobbying groups
was the official notice of recall for all the EV1's .. THAT
notice looks like it comes from a huge MONOLITHIC entity
called GM .. but in fact was an outcome of the bickerings
and deliberations of several factions .. it is not GM killing
the EV1 .. see the video again .. some groups within GM were
against the developing of EV1 .. and got it recalled and crushed !
fortunately, most members on the video are uninmous about
their support and the effectiveness of EV1 .. as are some
users who demanded stoppage of crushing the EV1
i guess it would be a long shot .. but IF that team could
regroup under whatever forum, they could still deliver
that kind of a car without much delay .. they KNOW all
about it .. and also about how to improve it too ! .. and
this time around, there would be no one from 'higher up'
to kill the project
..peekay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> - "GM was able to lease a mere 600 [EV1] ..."
> Everyone agrees that it was GM who curtailed the availability
> of EV1 for lease.
___________________________________________________________
All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease
of use." - PC Magazine
http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: Peter Handel 510-528-0946 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
FREE TALKS HIGHLIGHT PLUG-IN HYBRIDS
WHAT
The public is invited to free talks in Cocoa, Sarasota, Miami, and Boca
Raton about the car that created the biggest buzz at the Detroit auto show:
the plug-in hybrid.
WHO
Sherry Boschert, award-winning medical news reporter and author of the new
book PLUG-IN HYBRIDS: THE CARS THAT WILL RECHARGE AMERICA (New Society
Publishers) will discuss the pros and cons of plug-in hybrids for consumers.
People of all political stripes are promoting plug-in hybrids to decrease
pollution and U.S. dependence on oil.
WHERE / WHEN
Cocoa : Sunday, January 21, 4:00 p.m. Florida Solar Energy Center,
University of Central Florida, 1679 Clearlake Rd.
Sarasota : Tuesday, January 23, 3:00 p.m., Sarasota News and Books, 1341
Main Street.
Miami: Wednesday, January 24, 12:30 p.m., Florida International University
Park Campus, Room MARC 125, 11200 S.W. 8th Street, Miami. RSVP to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] or 305-348-7806.
Boca Raton : Thursday, January 25, 12:00 noon, Florida Atlantic University,
Senate Chambers, University Center building, 777 Glades Rd. RSVP to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] or 561-297-2010. Lunch provided.
NOTES
General Motors unveiled the Chevrolet Volt, a prototype plug-in hybrid, at
the Detroit North American International Auto Show on January 7. Five other
automakers have said they are developing new plug-in cars.
VISUALS
Florida residents will bring their electric cars to Cocoa, Miami, and Boca
Raton events. To request video or photos of plug-in hybrids, contact
[EMAIL PROTECTED] or 510-528-0946.
PLUG-IN HYBRIDS. 240 pages. Pb ISBN 0-86571-571-8. US$16.95.
For more information see www.sherryboschert.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have done this with Thunder Sky lithium ion and AGM lead acid. It
provides a blended improved result in range, weight and cost. In other
words, not as expensive as all lithium, handles peak currents well and more
range for the weight than all lead. So yes, I would call this the best of
both worlds, considering cost.
I have done it 2 ways:
1) primary pack is lithium ion, assisted by a small amp-hr AGM pack feeding
current through a diode when the lithium pack voltage sags under higher
current drains.
2) primary pack is AGM, for example 8 DCS-75 batteries, assisted by 100A-hr
28 cell pack of 100A-hr Thunder Sky.
Next, a 3rd way:
As an off-shoot of my Plug-in Hybrid Boost Converter (V-Boost) power supply
work, I will have a third option available this spring. This could also be
a sort of an "electronic range extender generator" if it is setup for
occasional use, and batteries put in the vehicle just when needed. A boost
converter would allow using a battery pack that does not match the main
pack/bus voltage, (possibly made up of the best of the earlier batch of TS
cells in my case, for example) such as 60V of batteries working with a 96V
main battery pack.
This Boost Converter power supply would be installed in the EV and
programmed to the desired output voltage matching the battery pack (88V or
96V from 11 or 12 of 8V 146 A-hr AGM batteries, in the case of my Skoda
pickup). It would supply a programmed current, up to 50A out to the main
pack, from almost any voltage and type of battery pack added, (for example,
a few Valence batteries, TS cells, AGMs, NiMH, whatever - grab what is
charged and available, connect and strap down, and go). Or keep the second
battery pack installed and always in use, to reduce the DOD of the main pack
for each trip for longer battery life, and permitting longer range when
needed.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 4:28 PM
Subject: Can mixed batteries nimh and lead acid lead to best of both worlds
for an electric vehicle?
Can mixed batteries nimh and lead acid lead to best of both worlds for an
electric vehicle?
We know lead acid is cheap.
We know nimh retains higher voltage.
I think it would be possible to make an ev with a nimh pack that could be
switched in for high acceleration when needed at higher voltage. When the
lead acids are drooping in performance.
You could run the motor at lower voltage off lead acid and kick in the
nimh for a higher voltage motor switch for better performance.
Total pack cost is lower than all nimh but you could switch in the nimh
for SOME of the performance advantages of a full nimh.
There would be other advantages too.
Might need separate charging swicthes as well but total cost would still
be lower than all nimh.
Sort of a total electric but battery use hybrid.
Plus a home builder could hack together a nimh booster pack from smaller
nimh cells more easily than a whole car.
Thoughts?
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming and
the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Conversion costs never change?
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 02:50:33 -0500
>On 20 Jan 2007 at 20:37, jerryd wrote:
>
>> you are still saddled with at least 1,000lbs of
>> excess weight vs a built as an EV, of which you have to
>> add another 1,000 lbs of batteries to the coversion.
>
>Jerry,
>
>It's unclear to me why a vehicle purpose built as an EV
>should lose 1000 lb simply by virtue of being an EV. You
>don't need a transmission, but what other source of excess
>weight do you lose?
Because to be successful as an EV it has to and I
was comparing it to current ICE's. It's not ICE's can't be
built lighter, they just are not. And if they are not built,
it's hard for them to weigh less ;^D
Mostly my weight saving has been using composites
and the snowball effect that has on other weights.
My body/chassis is already built and weighs 300 lbs,
next will only weigh 250 lbs.
So the question really is why isn't Detroit building
ones like it? It doesn't rust is probably it so doesn't need
replacing perioditicly. Having a single, easy to repair part
in the motor/trans doesn't endear them either, both hurting
their aftermarket parts sales, thus profits greatly.
>
>It seems to me that the weight of conversion gliders is
>mainly a consequence of their being designed for a
>comfortable ride, and a lack of interest on the mfg's part
>in designing for minimal mass.
No arguement here. But it can be done with much less
weight, more finesse. Using steel doesn't help!!
Automakers could design a
>car to be light regardless of its powerplant. I owned a
>1965 Opel Kadett coupe that tipped the scales at a bit
>over 1500lb, and this was without the aid of computers to
>optimize body strength vs mass. It was darn roomy, too.
It was one of my first cars. As for roomy, it was
hard for a couple to have fun in the rear seat so you are a
little generous there. I do have very fond memories of that
back seat though.
But my Freedom EV is the same outside size, that
complete but without batts, weighs about 600 lbs. Why? And
mine was designed without computers too ;^D. And I'd bet
mine has better crash protection than the Opel and many
other small cars.
I
>sometimes wish I still had it as I think it would make an
>outstanding conversion. (Over the ensuing years Kadetts
>gained weight as did many cars, but I expect that anything
>up to about '67 would make a most interesting glider.)
Opels, Datsuns, ect of that era would make great EV
gliders. I lust after an Opel GT.
>
>I believe the early Geo Metros (pre-1990) were in the same
>weight class. There have been several other European (and
>possibly Asian) minicars in the well-under-2000lb range.
>Again many of these have porked out in recent years as
>customers have demanded (or at least mfgs have offered)
>more luxury items. But perhaps one of our UK
>correspondents will have some other examples of potential
>gliders in a similar weight class.
>
>Of course the problem is that those small cars aren't
>imported to the US, so they can't be used for conversions.
That's true and I beat them handedly on weight too.
But I'd love to get my hands on a Twingo, ect.
>
>
>There are certainly other substantial advantages to a
>purpose-built vehicle, particularly in battery deployment
>and powertrain optimization.
Yes that's very true and why conversions are so bad
at being EV's comparatively.
But I really don't see how
>designing a car to be an EV can automatically make it
>1000lb lighter.
I never said that, just compared to what's
available.
But any ICE conversion is going to have that
disadvantage which when you add batts for the same range,
ect, gets even worse. This is obvious when you consider the
weight of my EV's.
Hell, I even built wood body/frame 2seat EV's, the
Ewoody's, that weighs less than 1,000lbs with batts, that
one, as you know, totaled a car that rearended it and only
cost $40 to put it back on the road. Light vehicles can be
strong!!
>
>Perhaps you could offer some specific figures to show how
>this is possible, with all other things being equal -
>meaning equal size, comfort, absence of road noise, etc.
I have done that for yrs David, pay attention ;^D.
Have I ever built an EV that weighed more than 600 lbs
without batts? They are the size a compact car like the
Rabbit.
Thanks for the price correction on Ni-cads in
another post. The price has certainly gone up due to our
dollar dropping 40% of it's value over the last 5 yrs thanks
to our supreme leader!
BTW, a larger diameter wheel used with skinny
solid, high pressure tires is why early EV's got such good
range on such bad roads. The large dia helps bridge bumps,
holes giving a softer, lower drag ride and getting down to
solid ground in the common mud back then. Many of those
early EV's weighed less than 1500 lbs, many under 1,000lbs
even then.
Myles, what does your Milburn? EV weigh and how much
does it's batts weigh?
Jerry Dycus
>
>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EV List Administrator
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>= = = Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while
>you're on vacation, or switch to digest mode? See how:
>http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to
>"evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me. To send
>a private message, please obtain my email address from the
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>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just put my vote in and the total is over 124 thousand. Maybe GM will
listen. But then who knows. I would buy one but I will not lease one. I
also hope that if these new cars are built then they are made available to
everyone in the US not just certain areas. I live in North Carolina and I
would love to have a chance to own a car like this for a reasonable price.
Fred
-----Original Message-----
From: Roderick Wilde [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 1:43 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: I Need You to Blitz GM Like Never Before
It is now at 120,000 and is going up at more than a vote a second.
Roderick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lado" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 6:17 PM
Subject: I Need You to Blitz GM Like Never Before
GM put a survey on one of their web site asking people to
let them know whether they should build their plug-in series hybrid Volt. I
don't
know why the people Who Killed the Electric Car, would do this, but I am
planning to give them a big surprise. Right now the number of people who
have
come to the site and voted for GM to make the Volt is close to 100,000. That
is
right baby 100 Gs worth of people telling GM that they want what is in
essence
an electric car that can go unlimited miles because it has a generator to
produce electricity to keep it going on long trips. Let's hammer this one
home
for GM, its stock holders and its bankers. We want alternative fuel vehicles
that free us from foreign sources of energy. We hammer it home by showing
overwhelming
numbers on this survey. A hundred thousand votes telling them that there are
buyers out there for plug-in vehicles is darn hard thing to ignore.
We need to overwhelm them in their own survey to let them
know that demand is real and is huge. Go to the link below.
http://www.gm.com/company/gm_exp_live/events/naias_2007/index_flash.html?nav
ID=3.0.1.1&seo=goo_volt
When at the site go to the lower part of the page and a
little to the left. Click on Vote for Volt Survey. Vote yes on both
questions
if you believe that GM should make the Volt and if you would buy one.
Hopefully, their eyes will open to the big numbers on the
survey. Hopefully those numbers will lead them to do the right thing, the
right
thing being to produce the Volt in sufficient numbers across the country so
that all of us who want one can buy one. And I mean buy. I am not leasing
one.
You hear me GM.
Tell GM the halo effect doesn't begin until they produce
the vehicles in large numbers. And none of this stuff of producing a few
hundred and saying there is no demand crud.
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 08:07 PM 1/20/2007, you wrote:
Why on earth would you want to do this? It would be hugely expensive even
if your ideas would work, it would also have very short range.
So, if multiple Curtis setups are "hugely" expensive, then a Z2K
setup is "astronomically" expensive?
Problems:
6V GC battteries can barely handle one controller. Using two controllers
on the same string will kill them quick.
Hmm, last I knew, lots of people use GC batteries with Curtis
controllers. Since these are 400A controllers that can't maintain
that peak for any length of time, seems like even 2 wouldn't be an
overload for GC batteries.
With all that weight and the relatively poor aerodynamics (poor Cd AND
large frontal area), I think you'd be lucky to get 20 miles tange with
your proposed setup.
> I've been thinking about doing a full-size pickup conversion.
> (something like a Ford F-250).
Which is interesting, since (as far as I can guess with the various
EV calculators) 2400lbs of batteries would seem to give considerably
more range than that.
So, what are you basing your range calculations on?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I
dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you aren't sure & the 1221b isn't schorched too bad it can be rebuilt by
a company like Logisystems. That core you have is worth a couple a hundred
dollars just because it can be rebuilt. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: Opening the Curtis 1212B
> Steve Powers wrote:
> > Can anyone shed some light on how to get that thing open?
>
> 1. Put it in an oven at about 160 deg.F. This softens the potting
> material so it is easy to remove.
>
> 2. Dig the potting compound out of the holes on the bottom.
> You'll find screws underneath. Remove these screws.
>
> 3. While it's still hot, slide a big bolt through the buss bars.
> Use a pair of claw hammers to pry each end of this bolt up
> away from the case. The potting compound will break free around
> the edge, and the entire "innards" will slide out of the case.
> It shouldn't take much force. If it does, you missed a screw
> or didn't get it hot enough.
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
GM put a survey on one of their web site asking people to let them
know whether they should build their plug-in series hybrid Volt. We
need to overwhelm them in their own survey to let them know that
demand is real and is huge. Go to the link below.
http://www.gm.com/company/gm_exp_live/events/naias_2007/
index_flash.html?navID=3.0.1.1&seo=goo_volt
When at the site go to the lower part of the page and a little to the
left. Click on Vote for Volt Survey. Vote yes on both questions if
you believe that GM should make the Volt and if you would buy one.
Tell GM the halo effect doesn't begin until they produce the vehicles
in large numbers. And none of this stuff of producing a few hundred
and saying there is no demand crud.
Thanks!
Joe Lado
Electric Vehicle Association of Washington DC
http://www.evadc.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, I'm still curious as to why you want to do this.
> At 08:07 PM 1/20/2007, you wrote:
>>Why on earth would you want to do this? It would be hugely expensive
>> even
>>if your ideas would work, it would also have very short range.
>
> So, if multiple Curtis setups are "hugely" expensive, then a Z2K
> setup is "astronomically" expensive?
Considering that even using 4 curtii + 4 ADCs, the total conversion cost
is probably going to run $15,000-$20,000, the Z2K setup is only 10-15%
more, so I'd say that falls under "hugely expensive" still.
Perhaps a bit less than that if you are close enough to a supllier to
pickup the parts and not have to pay shipping on over 600 lbs worth of
parts
>
>>Problems:
>>6V GC battteries can barely handle one controller. Using two controllers
>>on the same string will kill them quick.
>
> Hmm, last I knew, lots of people use GC batteries with Curtis
> controllers. Since these are 400A controllers that can't maintain
> that peak for any length of time, seems like even 2 wouldn't be an
> overload for GC batteries.
Yes indeed, lots of people run Curtis controllers. Some even run the more
powerful 550 amp versions; which, if you have a lead foot, will reduce the
lifespan of your pack.
400 amps will draw a freshly charge T-105 down to almost the minimum safe
voltage (1.75Vpc), after it's been discharged 20-30% it will draw it down
UNDER 1.75vpc.
You are talking about 800 AMPS worth of controllers per string. This will
kill your pack in fairly short order. Probably less than a year.
>
>>With all that weight and the relatively poor aerodynamics (poor Cd AND
>>large frontal area), I think you'd be lucky to get 20 miles tange with
>>your proposed setup.
>>
>> > I've been thinking about doing a full-size pickup conversion.
>> > (something like a Ford F-250).
>
> Which is interesting, since (as far as I can guess with the various
> EV calculators) 2400lbs of batteries would seem to give considerably
> more range than that.
> So, what are you basing your range calculations on?
What information are you using for the calculators? I just measured my
F250, it has roughly 36 ft of frontal area. Even if the Cd is the same
as a small truck, this means that it has twice as much aero drag.
I also think your weight estimate is off by almost 1,000 lbs (I'm assuming
you were thinking of the single cab, it's even more if you are talking the
extended/crew cab)
I just ran Uve's calculator and it came up with just under 20 miles at 40
mph. This, of course, assumes steady speed driving. Add stopping and
starting 4 tons of vehicle and your range will drop dramatically.
--- End Message ---
