EV Digest 6336
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Cutout Question
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Battery Monitor Design
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Businesses in Colorado
by Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) more EVs
by Sharon G Alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Testing the pack
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Battery Monitor Design
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Testing the pack
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Testing the pack
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Battery Monitor Design
by Tim Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Using Vortex Tubes for air conditioning/heating
by "Chuck Hays" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Testing the pack
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Battery Monitor Design
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EV Drag racing this year
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Lower price (and available) configurations
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Lower price (and available) configurations
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Using Vortex Tubes for air conditioning/heating
by DM3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) 120 mph Thrill
by DM3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: OT Copper, was: EEstor
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Goodyear Eagle GA P205/65R15 tires
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: OT Copper, was: EEstor
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) A123 Systems and Hybrids Plus in the news
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Series/Parallel question....
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Bill's question makes me wonder if I am setting things up the right way in
my car ( Echo with GC's and 1221C):
After pre-charge, I'm powering up the controller ( applying pack voltage to
the ksi terminal) at the same time I'm closing the main contactor. Both
happen the first time the potbox switch is closed. This is the same setup
that's shown in the Curtis controller manual. In my case there is a relay
that will latch ( and keep the contactor closed and the ksi terminal
powered) until the brakes are pressed.
Then, when the brakes are pressed ( brake lights come on) the main contactor
is opened at the same time the ksi input is removed. This will happen even
if the accelerator ( potbox) pedal is pressed (to protect against such a
failure as a broken or jammed potbox cable) This is similar to Curtis
diagram. In their case, both the contactor and ksi are opened together
every time you take your foot off the pedal and the potbox switch opens.
So, that seems like it's probably OK. But, if someone presses the gas (
potbox) pedal and brakes at the same time, the contactor and ksi would drop
out while the controller is supplying power to the motor. I'm not worried
about the contactor, but would this be a bad thing for the controller??
Also, I've got a motor rev limiter that drops out both the contactor and ksi
relay (together) when the motor overspeeds. ( Actually it's a two-stage
limiter. FIrst it shorts out the potbox pot, and, if the revs go even
higher, then it cuts out the contactor and ksi) So, here again, the
contactor and ksi will both switch off with the motor being powered the
controller. The current would not be very high in this case, though, since
the revs would have to be high for the limiter to kick in.
Any thoughts on this? It seems that for safety sake, the contactor should
be opened in these cases. (in case of controller failure). But, would it be
better just to leave the ksi terminal powered the whole time (even during
precharging) as opposes to opening and closing both together?
Thanks for you comments
Phil
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Cutout Question
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 15:27:48 -0600
Bill Dennis wrote:
The Curtis 1231C controller wiring diagrams have the pot box switch
controlling both the KSI relay and main contactor coils. What ensures
that the KSI open before the main contactor opens? Is it just that the
contactor's inductor is bigger, so it takes longer to de-energize?
It doesn't actually matter, since when you release the throttle, the pot
itself commands zero current before the switch commands the contactor to
open and KSI to turn off.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
_________________________________________________________________
Valentines Day -- Shop for gifts that spell L-O-V-E at MSN Shopping
http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId=8323,ptnrid=37,ptnrdata=24095&tcode=wlmtagline
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nice work!
I'm curious why the use of the opamps, is this to get isolation from the
battery pack or is there another reason? I would think using an ADC and
optoisolator between its digital output the uCPU would be preferred.
Jack
Tim Wong wrote:
I have designed and built a battery monitor with LCD display for my Soleq
EVcort (1993 ford escort converted by Soleq) - please take a look at the
design, including schematics, pictures, and board layout at this link:
http://home.earthlink.net/~evtkw/
I would love to hear feedback on the system! See any major flaws or problems?
Like anything? What do you think?
Tim Wong
1993 Soleq EVcort
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yup. A plug in hybrid conversion company (I forget
the exact name; Carl Lawerence is an owner), Bill
Dube' of the http://www.killacycle.com fame, the
Denver Electric VEhicle Con. (DEVC), and a bunch of
EVers that I'm sure would like to get together. I'll
chime in more later, as I'm sure others will. What's
your background and areas of interest?
- Steven Ciciora
--- Christie Cooksey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> I live in Australia but am planning a trip to Denver
> in June...
>
> Are there any EV businesses anywhere in Colorado
> that I could visit?
>
> Cheers
> Christie
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.
Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.
http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, we just picked up 3 more long bed S-10, (can fit 20 T-125s under the tilt
bed) bought at the auctions in Wichita, not running so we got a good deal. and
we will have to move into a larger shop. This one were in now is just running
out of room. we have one EV almost finished, one about 1/3 the way through, and
still have one out side we havent even started on. Makeing our own adaptor
plates and couplers and motor mounts takes a lot of space for the machinery,
but its woth it.
We have on the wall just about every bell housing you can think of to use as
a pattern.
The front motor mount will fit any motor to any frame just a few simple
holes to drill to make it fit. Gotta keep thinking and keep cost down.
The 3, S-10 i bought will just sit outside till they need to be converted,
this wont last long.
Wayne & Sharon www.ev-blue.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just seem to remember when Jerry or John had a battery go, someone
suggested "a more accurate" method was to test the batteries after a certain
load was applied?!?!?
On another note, what is a decent way to test the capacity of the pack? I
think I might need to re-program my emeter...
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
---------------------------------------------------
See the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
Check the EVDL Archives: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
Check out the EV FAQ: www.evparts.com/faq
Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: January 23, 2007 1:16 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Testing the pack
Don Cameron wrote:
> Every couple of months I check my pack to see if any batteries are low.
> Here is what I do:
>
> I charge my pack
> Wait 24 hours
> Measure each battery voltage
> Supplemental charge the low ones.
>
> I get the feeling, after readying a few posts about dead packs, that
> this procedure is wrong. Can anyone please correct me?
Sounds reasonable to me. Why do you think there is something wrong with it?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ah that an important catch. I looked at the sender and assumed the
optos were on the display schematic (actually they need to be on the
sender).
The LT1990 +/- 250V won't be acceptable unless the pack is grounded to
the frame. Since neither side of the pack is usually grounded in an EV,
the voltage between the pack and head unit (where it's grounded) is
unspecified. Also, depending on the internals of the LT1990, it may be
unable to read a source correctly if the +/- input doesn't have a ground
referenced to one of the supply terminals. In fact I'm pretty sure it
won't. If it worked before it's only because of a slight leakage
current from pack to ground.
Danny
Tim Wong wrote:
Thanks! Here is the LT1990 chip that is between the ADC and the battery:
http://www.linear.com/pc/productDetail.do?navId=H0,C1,C1154,C1009,C1126,P7521
It has a fairly big input impedance... Do you think that is sufficient isolation? Do you have any suggestions for better isolation? The actual microprocessor is in a different box, connected with 3 wire serial to the ADC - do you think that is also vulnerable?
Thanks,
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Jan 23, 2007 1:08 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Battery Monitor Design
Tim Wong wrote:
I have designed and built a battery monitor with LCD display for my
Soleq EVcort (1993 Ford escort converted by Soleq) - please take a
look at the design, including schematics, pictures, and board layout
at this link: http://home.earthlink.net/~evtkw/
Wow! It looks very good. I don't see how you are isolating your pack
from the microcomputer electronics, though.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ha ha very funny. Nice to have a supplier of regulators at hand. Not in
my case.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
---------------------------------------------------
See the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
Check the EVDL Archives: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
Check out the EV FAQ: www.evparts.com/faq
Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Rudman
Sent: January 23, 2007 12:41 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Testing the pack
Hey what I do is run the charger for a couple of days and let the Regs beat
the UNequalness out of the cold tired Lead.
Seams to have worked on Goldie's Orbs.
It's 50 plus here in Seattle..
We were froze up last week. Gee feels like summer.
Maybe I can get some EV miles and that is a improvement over Hybrid miles.
But man! the tunes and the seats and the comfort of the E-scape is a lot
better than a busted bucket seat and loose stearing that makes Goldie just
sooo much fuunn..
The 1200 amps and smoking rubber does make up the difference.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 12:00 PM
Subject: Testing the pack
> Hi all,
>
> You will have to forgive me for asking a basic question. I have searched
> around, but have not really got a clear understanding.
>
> Every couple of months I check my pack to see if any batteries are low.
> Here is what I do:
>
> I charge my pack
> Wait 24 hours
> Measure each battery voltage
> Supplemental charge the low ones.
>
> I get the feeling, after readying a few posts about dead packs, that this
> procedure is wrong. Can anyone please correct me?
>
> thanks
> Don
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
> See the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> Check the EVDL Archives:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
>
> Check out the EV FAQ: www.evparts.com/faq
>
> Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
> I just seem to remember when Jerry or John had a battery go, someone
> suggested "a more accurate" method was to test the batteries
> after a certain load was applied?!?!?
What you're doing seems like a sensible approach to keeping the pack
balanced, but doesn't necessarily reveal which batteries might be lower
in capacity than others.
By waiting many hours after charge completes, you are ensuring that the
open-circuit voltage has settled and will be representative of the SOC
of each battery. Topping up the low ones brings them to a full SOC.
If you note the module voltages immediately or better still, some hours
after driving, but before charging, then the spread in voltages will
reveal the spread in capacity of the modules. If you let them sit many
hours before reading the voltages, then the open circuit voltage is
again representative of the SOC, so lower voltage modules are at a lower
SOC. Since they are all in series, the lower SOC modules must have
lower capacity than the others (since all had the same Ah removed).
This helps you to identify which module is your lowest capacity one, and
therefore might be the one to set your pack capacity based on, or might
be the one to monitor individually while driving.
Testing without a load applied will not reveal batteries that have good
capacity but excessive internal resistance. If you can apply a load to
the batteries and measure the module voltages under load, then you can
determine if a module has more sag/internal resistance than the others.
> On another note, what is a decent way to test the capacity of
> the pack?
I would do a normal drive that should use up about half of the capacity
you think you have, then let the car sit overnight without charging.
Now measure the module voltages to identify the one with the lowest
voltage; this is the weakest battery in the string. Charge the pack
normally, and if desired follow your top off/balancing procedure. Then,
connect a load to the identified weakest battery and discharge it to
1.75V/cell. Ideally the load would be representative of your normal
driving load. Using whatever means you have available, track the Ah
removed (actually track Ah with an E-Meter, etc., or measure current
periodically and note the time at current so you can integrate the Ah
manually, etc.). Finally, recharge that module fully to the same level
as the rest of the pack.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It has been working well for some time now... I think it is supposed to have a
small leakage current, that is how it measures. How would you change the
system? Are you saying differential amps can't work in this application, or
that it should have been implemented differently?
Thanks,
Tim
-----Original Message-----
>From: Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Jan 23, 2007 4:33 PM
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: Battery Monitor Design
>
>Ah that an important catch. I looked at the sender and assumed the
>optos were on the display schematic (actually they need to be on the
>sender).
>
>The LT1990 +/- 250V won't be acceptable unless the pack is grounded to
>the frame. Since neither side of the pack is usually grounded in an EV,
>the voltage between the pack and head unit (where it's grounded) is
>unspecified. Also, depending on the internals of the LT1990, it may be
>unable to read a source correctly if the +/- input doesn't have a ground
>referenced to one of the supply terminals. In fact I'm pretty sure it
>won't. If it worked before it's only because of a slight leakage
>current from pack to ground.
>
>Danny
>
>Tim Wong wrote:
>
>>Thanks! Here is the LT1990 chip that is between the ADC and the battery:
>>
>>http://www.linear.com/pc/productDetail.do?navId=H0,C1,C1154,C1009,C1126,P7521
>>
>>It has a fairly big input impedance... Do you think that is sufficient
>>isolation? Do you have any suggestions for better isolation? The actual
>>microprocessor is in a different box, connected with 3 wire serial to the ADC
>>- do you think that is also vulnerable?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Tim
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>
>>
>>>From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>Sent: Jan 23, 2007 1:08 PM
>>>To: [email protected]
>>>Subject: Re: Battery Monitor Design
>>>
>>>Tim Wong wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I have designed and built a battery monitor with LCD display for my
>>>>Soleq EVcort (1993 Ford escort converted by Soleq) - please take a
>>>>look at the design, including schematics, pictures, and board layout
>>>>at this link: http://home.earthlink.net/~evtkw/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Wow! It looks very good. I don't see how you are isolating your pack
>>>
>>>
>>>from the microcomputer electronics, though.
>>
>>
>>>--
>>>Ring the bells that still can ring
>>>Forget the perfect offering
>>>There is a crack in everything
>>>That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>>>--
>>>Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
how large would the tank need to be to store
enough air for cooling the vehicle for say 20 minutes?
One of the "features" of a vortex tube is that
they're effectively a point-source of heat or
cold. By which I mean: you may be able to
get -40C out of one, but it's going to be
in a very small area. A vortex tube big enough
to cool a car for 20 minutes is going to be
bigger than the car. Also, the heat's going
to have to go somewhere, although a
Hilsch tube designed for cold doesn't make
as much heat as a Hilsch tube designed for
heat (which makes less cold...).
For dry-air cooling of a machine bit or heat
directed at small spots, great. Remember
the noise factor, too.
Chuck Hays
_________________________________________________________________
Your Space. Your Friends. Your Stories. Share your world with Windows Live
Spaces. http://discoverspaces.live.com/?loc=en-CA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
there is a standard test set for checking batteries after full charge cycle .
another method is to charge a full cycle then check specfic gravity keep a
record and you will be able to chart the life of your batteries . this last is
what we did A the Honeywell corprate hq when we had to keep the ups system
charged for the security monerating system for honeywell security systems . it
is VERY accurate at the golden valley plant we use the portable tested that
puts a known load on the battery ( we have about 30 or so small ev carts to run
around the plant in . the plant is 22 acres under 1 roof . that works well
also and is faster . nowadays they don't like us to spend too uch time @ one
task .
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Cameron<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 6:30 PM
Subject: RE: Testing the pack
I just seem to remember when Jerry or John had a battery go, someone
suggested "a more accurate" method was to test the batteries after a certain
load was applied?!?!?
On another note, what is a decent way to test the capacity of the pack? I
think I might need to re-program my emeter...
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
---------------------------------------------------
See the New Beetle EV project
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev<http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev>
Check the EVDL Archives:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive<http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive>
Check out the EV FAQ: www.evparts.com/faq<http://www.evparts.com/faq>
Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com<http://www.evalbum.com/>
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: January 23, 2007 1:16 PM
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Testing the pack
Don Cameron wrote:
> Every couple of months I check my pack to see if any batteries are low.
> Here is what I do:
>
> I charge my pack
> Wait 24 hours
> Measure each battery voltage
> Supplemental charge the low ones.
>
> I get the feeling, after readying a few posts about dead packs, that
> this procedure is wrong. Can anyone please correct me?
Sounds reasonable to me. Why do you think there is something wrong with it?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I strongly argue against BASICStamps. Parallax has done a lot of marketing
saying it's too difficult and expensive to learn to use a PIC without their
stuff. None of this is true, it's just negative hype and way too many new
guys have gotten suckered into working with them. There are far more free
tools and help forums on the net for PIC too! BASICStamp is just a very
badly degraded PIC system and made terribly expensive and inflexible to
boot.
Danny
I strongly argue for the Basic Stamp since all the software and schematics
needed to complete this particular project are posted for free on the
internet. The Stamp is apparently up to the job and for a mere $50 or so
you can cut out the entire software development processes. Of course if
someone elses were to design one of these systems and provide alll the
information for free on the internet then the Basic Stamp loses it's current
advantage.
There are lots of reasons for making design decisions.
Parallax has done a good job of marketing to those that are new to
Microprocessors and there is nothing inherently evil about their product.
Personally I have had a lot of fun programming Basic Stamps and have at
least a dozen of them sitting around my house inside of robot kits, so when
I start thinking about adding some simple smarts to a project I always think
of a Basic Stamp first. I know how to use them, and I have them on hand.
damon
_________________________________________________________________
Turn searches into helpful donations. Make your search count.
http://click4thecause.live.com/search/charity/default.aspx?source=hmemtagline_donation&FORM=WLMTAG
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yep, we will definitely have some racing going on out West. But as
Rich said its kind of far out right now.
This is NEDRA's 10th Anniversary so expect a big NEDRA Nationals this
year.
We may be planning something for Las Vegas too.
But right now we just have the 2 East Coast events planned.
I just had lunch with the Discovery Channel New Media folks yesterday
so we hope to be doing something with them this year. More on that as
the plans develop.
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
On Jan 23, 2007, at 6:17 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: January 23, 2007 1:53:55 PM EST
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: EV Drag racing this year
keep in mind that Portland was snowed in last week. And is about 55
Deg
today, We don't do much EV racing when the weather can be this
extreme.
I am sure we will have more than a few Wayland nights at Portland.
Heck I am cahrging Goldie right now for the frist time in about 3
months..
so We will be doing some racing, it's just too far off to have any
dates in
stone yet.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 5:24 AM
Subject: EV Drag racing this year
(resend - original hasn't appeared after a day)
G'day all,
As I mentioned earlier, I've relocated to Edmonton, Canada for this
year.
One of the things I want to do while on this side of the planet is to
see some electric drag racing.
So, what are the plans for EV events at Portland this summer?
Nothing on the Nedra site yet. Any Wayland stuff going on?
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> A bigger motor will be slightly more efficient, will be able
>> to run at a higher continuous horsepower, and can deliver a
>> higher peak horsepower. The latter may not matter with a
>> Curtis controller, as it will limit power before the motor does.
From: Roger Stockton
>I'm not so sure that this would be the case. The L91 is rated 130A
>continuous, 150A for 1hr, and 500A peak... A 1231C is rated 500A
>(2min), 375A (5min), and 225A (1hr)... It seems that... a 1231C
>is quite capable of abusing a small motor like this in a heavy vehicle
It's certainly possible, with a well-cooled controller and a poorly cooled
motor. However, the current ratings of the motor depend strongly on RPM because
of its internal cooling fan. You could easily fry even a 9" motor with a 1221C
if you forced it to run at such a low RPM that the fan wasn't doing any good.
With respect to John's situation, I think the L91 would be OK even with the
1231C as long as he kept the motor over 2000 RPM or so. That's the setup I have
in my EV.
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And the original statement was:I've been thinking about doing a
full-size pickup conversion. (something like a Ford F-250).
Starting out with a Z2K and Dual 11" motors would be nice, but is
awfully expensive, and there is a hefty lead time. ($4500 + 2 * $2950).
I was thinking of a 240V pack using 6V golf cart batteries.
At 02:38 PM 1/23/2007, Roger Stockton wrote:
I'm not so sure that this would be the case. The L91 is rated 130A
continuous, 150A for 1hr, and 500A peak; a 1221C is rated 400A (2min),
250A (5min), and 150A (1hr). A 1231C is rated 500A (2min), 375A (5min),
and 225A (1hr). It seems that unless one took measures to ensure their
As Lee said, if you keep the revs up, an L91 with a 1221C should be ok.
> > As a way around the Lead Sled acceleration.
> > Say you used the Dual Curtis w/6.7" motors.
> > You then had 2 more 6.7" motors that have a simple
> > Contactor control.
I've lost the original posts in this thread, so forgive me if I'm
misremembering, but wasn't a stated objective of the thought exercise to
see what could be done for less money than a pair of larger motors and a
Zilla?
Yup.
Unless I'm misreading what you wrote above (and misremembering from
prior posts), it seems the original suggestion is a pair of L91-4003's,
each fed by its own Curtis, and each Curtis fed by its own 120V string
of 6V GCs.
The L91 goes for $915/ea, and a 1221C for $1025. There's no doubt that
a pair of L91's is cheaper than a pair of 8's ($1364-1390/ea), but you
The prices I had found were:
Curtis 1221C + ADC L91-4003, $975 + $840.
now seem to suggest two pairs of L91's, which runs you up to nearly
$4000 in motors. A pair of 1221C's is barely competitive with a Z1K LV
at $2050 for the Curtii vs $2025 for the Z1K, and loses on a bang for
the buck measure with 800A (total peak) vs 1000 for the Z1K.
But the Z1K is essentially Not Available for now, at least the last I heard.
Anecdotal reports from EV truckers in the past have suggested that a
single 8" or 9" is marginal even in an S10/Ranger type vehicle at about
120V of 6V GCs. The concerns, as I recall, were both sluggish
performance and motor overheating on hills or at speed. An 8" weighs
110lbs, while the L91-4003 weighs 85lbs, so a pair of L91's have a bit
more total weight and so might very well address these concerns... If
fitted to a Ranger/S10 conversion. However, your proposal is for a
vehicle close to 2x this, so it might very well require 4 of the smaller
motors to handle the power requirements without overheating.
Which is why I was suggesting the Contactor mode Boost for 2 more small motors.
Also why I was keeping the transmission so I could keep the motor
revs up. (Adding a blower for forced air cooling wouldn't be too bad either.)
If you did want to go with the smaller motor approach, I would suggest
seriously considering the X91-4001 motor instead.
Sounds interesting.
I would also suggest that the Z1K HV (72-300V) at $2600 might be the
wisest controller choice. It is slightly more costly than a pair of
1221Cs, but is also more powerful at 1000A vs 800A, and would allow you
to connect your 40 6VGCs in a single 240V string. In reality, the Z1K
could allow significantly better performance than the pair of Curtii
Yup, but you did just add another $650 to the price. (Also would need
to add a Series/Parallel contactor, but one less On/Off contactor)
And the truck would still likely need more power for acceleration.
(hmm, what about hooking up the 4 small motors to a single
Z1K? Switch between 4 in parallel, or 2 pairs in series?)
Obviously, the fly
in the ointment here is that you could have a pair of Curtii immediately
but might have a 6 month wait for the Z1K.
Yup.
It is also somewhat of a
questionmark if the 174lbs of motor (2 x X91) would be enough to avoid
overheating in a vehicle this large given that 110-140lb of motor (1 x
8" or 9") is anecdotaly marginal in Ranger/S10-type applications. On
the plus side, the wide input range of the Z1K HV would allow you to
tailor the pack voltage/weight so that you weren't carrying more battery
than you end up needing to make your desired trips, and this could make
life easier on the motors.
More Batteries == More Range. Want Range.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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I used these back in the 80s in the RCA CED video player production
facility. We used them to cool a 1/4 inch diameter shaft after we heated
it up red hot. We started out using regular shop air but sped up the
cooling rate using the smaller vortex units. The exiting air temp depends
on the shop air pressure available and humidity can be a problem (icing).
The big issue is the volume of shop air it takes to cool a space. The
tube has one inlet and two exits - about 60 percent of the inlet volume
exits one port cold (around 40 deg) the remaining 40 percent exits the
second port hot. How? There is a small revolving "turbine" that
compresses some of the air and the rest of the air gives heat up to the
fast moving air. see: http://www.vortec.com/vortex_tubes.php
Just remember, if you use a tank of air you need to size it so that the
volume of cold exiting air is at least the volume of your car and you have
to vent the hot port of the vortex tube (or use it to heat your car in the
winter).
Bottom line-you need a lot of air.
mario
> > Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 11:53:51 -0700 (MST)
> Subject: Re: Using Vortex Tubes for air conditioning/heating
> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
>
> Hmm, an interesting though. Given that they aren't efficient, can they
> at
> least be light weight?
> For example, if we had an onboard tank of compressed air (refilled while
> charging) and a vortex tube, how large would the tank need to be to
> store
> enough air for cooling the vehicle for say 20 minutes?
>
> Assume we use a simple solar powered fan to keep the vehicle from
> getting
> to hot while parked.
>
> Anybody with experience using these care to comment?
>
> > They are simple, but very inefficient.
> > http://www.visi.com/~darus/hilsch/
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_tube
> >
> > Bill Dube'
> >
> > At 09:22 PM 1/22/2007, you wrote:
> >
> >>Hello:
> >>
> >>My apologies if this is stupid or if it has been discussed before.
> >>
> >>While surfing around, I stumbled over some cooling technologies, that
> >>basically uses compressed air. See
> >>http://www.exair.com/vortextube/vt_page.htm
> >>
> >>Now .. I don't have any data, but shouldn't a moving vehicle produce
> >>quite some amount of air flow/air pressure that could be used for
> cooling
> >>or heating through a vortex tube?
> >>
> >>Just an idea here ..
> >>
> >>Michaela
> >
> >
>
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Thanks Rush, I posted a copy of one ticket on the site for those who are
interested: https://dm3electrics.com/
> > From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: Re: 120 mph Thrill
> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 09:16:38 -0700
>
> Great, Good for you Mario!
>
> Dennis - are you going to be at Firebird anytime soon? It is much closer
> to Tucson and some of our TEVA2 Club members would love to see the CE.
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.ironandwood.org
> www.Airphibian.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "DM3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 10:03 PM
> Subject: 120 mph Thrill
>
>
> >I have been involved in EVs and EV racing for several years but had not
> > gone over 100mph on a drag strip until recently. I just want to thank
> > Dennis Berube for letting me rip down the strip in the CE-V and see
> what it is like.
> > I don't know if I am now in any official 100mph club but I consider
> the experience an honor.
> > I wrote a little article you can see at the bottom of:
> > https://dm3electrics.com/
> >
> > Thanks Dennis
> > See you at the track,
> > Mario
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well said david . there is a huge different in min. standards
----- Original Message -----
From: David Roden<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: OT Copper, was: EEstor
On 23 Jan 2007 at 1:31, Cor van de Water wrote:
> each circuit can deliver 230V x 16A = 3680W in the
> case of virtually every Dutch home, where the US has a max
> of 120V x 15A = 1800W, less than half the power.
Most US appliance circuits are protected at 20 amps, so 2400W (must be held
to 80% for sustained loads).
IIRC, the manufacturer suggested a 20 amp, 120v circuit circuit for charging
Comuta-Cars.
> still many homes have only 4 breakers, though
> newer homes are often built with 6 or 7.
Many newer US homes have 40 or more (using subpanels). Twenty, 24, or 30
was typical several years ago. Four and six fuses with 60 amp services were
last fitted probably 50-75 years ago in US homes. With only 14kW available
(half that for a very small number not wired for 240v!), high power EV
charging is pretty much a dicey proposition for such an old home.
> I am not sure but I think is now an equal nr of homes
> with 25A service as having the newer 35A service, so
> the max available power in most of the homes is between 6kW
> and 8kW. Airco is not very common and requires an upgrade ...
> ... every house is already supplied with 3-phase ... you can install heavier
> wiring and fuses and go to 3x 35A for more than 20kW, though
> this is seldom done in a home. I do not know anyone charging
> from anything else than a house outlet at 3.5kW there.
>
Most newer US homes have 200a service. This is a total power of 48kW. My
older home has 100a service for 24kW. None of my EV chargers exceeds 3.5kW,
however.
Some of the very large houses being built today have 400a service. Many of
these are operating two, three, or more air-con units. I imagine these
homes are just about ideal for high power EV charging since the air-con
typically runs little at night.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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I have an opportunity to get four nearly new Goodyear Eagle GA
P205/65R15 tires.
Anyone have any experience with these tires?
A web search states these Goodyear Eagle GA P205/65R15 tires are
performance / sport use. I wonder if these are OK for EV use or
would they have too high a rolling resisatnce for EVs.
Thanks a head of time for your help.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel
bargains.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
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Peter in 1976 the min. new home service was 10kw and 6 circuts 2 small
appaliance 1 washing 1 lighting 1 bath and garage / outside and 1 for
general use that usually served the lv rm and bed rooms . todayt the min is a
100 amp 240 vac service and there are many home that have distrubation panel
that go higher than 400 amps ! u can not sell a older house with gov
garrentted loans unless you upgade to 100 amp 240vac your point about wire
size and waste ! has me wondering ... you cannot compare the electric dist
systems in europe and here they devoloped entirely different and there are 23
different voltge / device systems there !! they have mass transist we don't we
just don't compare apples to apples !!!
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter VanDerWal<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: OT Copper, was: EEstor
>
>> still many homes have only 4 breakers, though
>> newer homes are often built with 6 or 7.
>
> Many newer US homes have 40 or more (using subpanels). Twenty, 24, or 30
> was typical several years ago. Four and six fuses with 60 amp services
> were last fitted probably 50-75 years ago in US homes.
Hmm, I own four houses. The oldest is about 40 years old and the newest
is 12. (Bear with me for a moment and I'll bring this back to EVs.)
The main breaker panel in the old house has 4 110V circuit breakers, zero
220V. One 15 amp breaker handles the outlets and lights in the original
bedrooms, bathroom, hallway, 1/2 the living room and 1/2 the kitchen
!!??!!
I guess, back in the '60s, they just didn't have much stuff to plug in.
As I recall, only rich people had more than one TV back then and many
people didn't have any.
I'm pretty sure that originally the house only had 3 breakers (or fuses?)
since one of them is only used by the washing machine and the house was
remodeled to handle a washing machine.
The new house has a large panel that is full...16 breakers. Ok 4 of those
are 220V breakers and take up two slots. But, the panel could only hold a
max of 20 breakers.
I was going to say that with 40 breakers the hous emust be huge, but I
just checked google. Turns out my new house, which I thought was quite
large at 1400 sqf, is actually quite small.
The average American home is 2,349 sqf, the average American family has
slightly over 3 people (those 0.14 kids are hard to keep track of).
Actually the average household size is only 2.59.
That means over 900 sqf per person. I guess those commercials of the
parrents text messaging their kids while both are at home isn't so much of
a joke.
Americans are nuts.
Anyway two points about EVs:
Newer houses obviously have no problem with charging EVs. Even a high
power charger doesn't take much more juice than a sauna or dryer. But
older houses will probably need to be upgraded. Contrary to what some
folks think, there are STILL a lot of US houses out there with very
small service panels.
Second point, Americans are gready (relatively speaking) and not very
conservative (as a whole). I don't believe that we can appeal to the
majority of Americans by building small EVs, or by convincing them that
EVs will save money or the enviroment.
Obviously there will be niche markets for these types of vehicles, but
I don't think the market will support very many of them. To appeal to
large numbers, EVs need to be "New and Improved!" They'll need to be
sexy, they'll need to be fast, to have some zing. Something to appeal
to our rampant consumerism, our bigger and better lifestyle.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
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I've been busy so I'm behind in my reading. Just ran across an very
nice article in the January 12th Christian Science Monitor about
advanced batteries for hybrids. A123 Systems and Hybrids-Plus are
mentioned quite favorably.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0112/p01s02-usec.html
Bill Dube'
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At 02:20 PM 1/23/2007, you wrote:
Hi Bill,
Man, the killa cycle looks awesome, I wish I had that pack. :)
I worked very hard to get sponsorship from A123 Systems.
Anyone who races will attest to how difficult it is to get sponsorship.
Anyways, another thing I wanted to point out, at least it seems with
18650 Lithium Ion cells, they will "self balance" to a certain
degree if seriously out of balance in parallel. I'm not sure if this
helps or not, since they may need to be seriouly out of balance for
the more charged cells to charge the weaker cells?
The open circuit voltage varies slightly with SOC in the mid
range, and varies strongly with SOC at the extremes. Thus, the cells
with higher SOC transfer current to cells with lower SOC quite well.
After all, there is just a few milli-ohms of resistance. Doesn't take
much voltage difference to drive a significant current through a
resistance that low.
Bill D.
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