EV Digest 6366
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) EVLN(Israeli EVs for Israel, Jordan & Palestinian buyers)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) EVLN(SF GEM fire not plugged in, Alcatraz GEM fire 12/05)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) EVLN(Possible Lithium shortage)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) EVLN($24.4k Nissan Altima Hybrid)-long
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: (fwd) Nilar NiMH batteries don't use Chevron's patents...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EVLN(Israeli EVs for Israel, Jordan & Palestinian buyers)
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Weird Battery Problem
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: (fwd) Nilar NiMH batteries don't use Chevron's patents...
by murdoch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: (fwd) Nilar NiMH batteries don't use Chevron's patents...
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EVLN(Voltageville vied for Tesla EV plant)
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: (fwd) Nilar NiMH batteries don't use Chevron's patents...
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Debating purchasing an EV
by Jay Paroline <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Should I say "Peak Lithium" ?
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: (fwd) Nilar NiMH batteries don't use Chevron's patents...
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Battery Beach, OJ, and Swamp Buggies part deux
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Israeli EVs for Israel, Jordan & Palestinian buyers)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=120552
Electric-Car Factory in Israel Discussed at Davos
16:20 Jan 30, '07 / 11 Shevat 5767 by Hillel Fendel
At the just-ended World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland,
Shimon Peres held informal talks about building an electric-car
factory in Israel with representatives of Toyota and Renault.
The idea was originally that of Shai Agassi, President of
Germany's SAP, the world's largest business software company.
Agassi, a Raanana native who was chosen in 2003 by TIME/CNN as
its #1 Global Business Influential, shared the idea with Peres.
Israel's Vice Premier told the car companies that the government
would be willing to provide grants and tax benefits for the
construction of such factories. Renault apparently showed
significant interest in the idea.
Peres said that battery-operated cars manufactured in Israel
could supply Israel, Jordan and the Palestinian Authority, thus
guaranteeing its viability.
The main challenge of the project would be finding a way to
cheaply manufacture an electric battery with which to start the
car. Agassi expressed optimism that Israeli research and
development teams could produce solutions, and the knowledge
could help in building similar factories elsewhere.
Israel's long-term interest is to reduce its dependency on oil.
To this end, the government is also considering encouraging
Israelis to replace their gas-powered cars with electric ones.
Subsidies would be provided for the purpose.
Gil Melamed, Maariv's automobile commentator, explains that
Israel cannot realistically consider manufacturing cars, but
rather batteries that would power the electric vehicles. "What
prevents electric cars from becoming the perfect solution to the
problems of air pollution and the dependence on fuel," Melamed
writes, "is the lack of a good enough technology for the storing
of electric energy. The batteries that currently exist do not
last long enough before needing to be recharged, which itself
takes too long... If Israel invests in developing battery
technology and production of advanced batteries, we can
definitely become an important player in the car industry of the
future."
Published: 09:13 January 30, 2007 Last Update: 16:20 January 30,
2007 All rights reserved IsraelNationalNews ©
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(SF GEM fire not plugged in, Alcatraz GEM fire 12/05)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.ktvu.com/news/10855312/detail.html
KTVU.com POSTED: 4:19 pm PST January 26, 2007
Electric Car Was Not Plugged In Before SF Fire
SAN FRANCISCO -- A fire at San Francisco's Crissy Field sparked
by an electric car was the second blaze in just over a year at
the Golden Gate National Recreation Area that was caused by an
apparently defective electric vehicle, a parks spokesman said
Friday.
The vehicle was not plugged in when it caught fire while parked
outside the Warming Hut, a historic building in the Presidio of
San Francisco renovated as a showcase for sustainable design.
The car, a Daimler Chrysler GEM car, belonged to the Golden Gate
National Parks Conservancy, a nonprofit wing of the Golden Gate
National Recreation Area, recreation area spokesman Rich Weideman
said.
The fire damaged about 5 percent of the historic landmark
building to the tune of as much as $200,000, he said.
Firefighters learned of the blaze around midnight and the fire
was under control by 12:30 a.m., but not before flames had
reached up the side of the building and into the attic, San
Francisco Fire Department spokeswoman Mindy Talmadge said.
"Fortunately the fire response was very quick," Weideman said.
The Warming Hut is expected to be closed for a few weeks but the
Crissy Field Center, which also houses a bookstore and cafe, will
be open seven days a week during that time, he said.
Another GEM car, which was plugged in, caught fire at Alcatraz in
December 2005, Weideman said. No buildings were damaged in that
blaze, he said.
Daimler Chrysler will bring out an investigator to examine the
vehicle next week, he said.
Copyright 2007 by Bay City News. All rights reserved.
===
http://cbs13.com/local/local_story_026192804.html
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Possible Lithium shortage)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2007/1/prweb500533.htm
Lithium Supply May Not Be Sufficient for Electric Car Battery
Production, Study Finds
Key minerals used to create lithium batteries may not be
sufficient to meet future demand for plug-in hybrid and electric
cars, researcher tells evworld.com.
(PRWEB) January 29, 2007 -- The vast majority of world's supply
of lithium carbonate, the mineral used to make lithium-based
batteries for cellphones and laptop computers is found in just
four countries: China, Chile, Argentina, and Bolivia, reports
William Tahil, director of research for Meridian International
Research in a newly released white paper entitled, The Trouble
with Lithium.
In an exclusive telephone interview with EV World
(www.evworld.com), Tahil contends that all of the world's current
production of lithium salts, which are extracted from brine lakes
high in the Andes and Tibet, is being utilized for small
electronics and other industrial applications, and while
production capacity will double in the next fews years, the
industry simply can't produce enough lithium to build the
hundreds of millions of large-format batteries needed to power
the electric cars and plug-in hybrids of the future.
Recently both General Motors and Ford Motor Company unveiled
electric concept cars at the North American International Auto
Show that make use of lithium-chemistry batteries. As recently as
the 2007 State of the Union address, George Bush has been
promoting plug-in hybrids and through an executive order is
requiring federal fleets to buy them in the future.
Tahil estimates as much of 15% of the world's known reserves of
lithium carbonate and lithium chloride would be required to equip
each of the world's 800 million cars and trucks with a relatively
small, 8 kWh battery pack. GM's Volt concept car is powered by a
16 kWh lithium battery pack. In his view, this is unsustainable.
Instead, Tahil is proposing that two other well-understood
battery chemistries be more actively investigated and developed:
sodium nickel chloride and zinc-air, both of which offer
comparable or greater energy density than lithium without the
attendant safety or resource depletion issues. After iron,
aluminum and copper, zinc is the most commonly used metal by
modern society. A 2005 USGS estimate placed American zinc
reserves a 30,000,000 metric tons and world reserves, excluding
the US, at 220 million metric tons. Tahil estimates total world
lithium metal reserves at just 6,200,000 metric tons.
The complete 45-minute interview with Tahil, who lives in
Normandy, France is available as an MP3 audio "podcast" on the EV
World web site (www.evworld.com).
Contact:
Bill Moore, Editor in Chief EV World Tel: +1 402.339.9877
William Tahil, Director of Research Meridian International
Research Tel: +33 2 32 42 95 49 Fax: +33 2 32 41 39 98
###
© Copyright 1997-2007, Vocus PRW Holdings, LLC.
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN($24.4k Nissan Altima Hybrid)-long
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/01/30/nissan-altima-hybrid-starts-at-24-400-for-the-few-who-can-buy-i/
Nissan Altima Hybrid starts at $24,400 for the few who can buy it
Posted Jan 30th 2007 3:57PM by John Neff
Filed under: Hybrids/Alternative, Sedans/Saloons, Green, Nissan
The Altima Hybrid is a strange bird, a very strange bird indeed.
Nissan signed a deal with Toyota back in 2002 to license its
Hybrid Synergy Drive technology for use in the Altima Hybrid, but
will be dropping the Toyota bits as soon as an in-house team can
develop its own hybrid technology. Meanwhile, the Altima Hybrid
will be sold with Toyota technology in only eight states, which
include California and seven other northeastern states that have
adopted California's strict emissions regulations. Nissan
announced today that the car will carries a base price of
$24,440.
We've got more to say on the Nissan Altima Hybrid after the jump,
along with Nissan's official press release.
[Source: Nissan]
Of the hybrids available on the market today, the Altima Hybrid
would be the one sitting in our green garage. It's bigger than a
Prius, more stylish than a Camry Hybrid and not as expensive as a
Lexus GS450h. We have proof of that last point now since Nissan
announced today that it's MSRP will be $24,440. We learned
earlier that the Altima Hybrid met the requirements for the
Alternative Motor Vehicle Credit and therefore qualifies for a
$2,350 tax credit. Nevertheless, the car will only be offered in
these states, which is unfortunate for anyone seeking stylish,
economical and reasonably priced green transportation.
AutoblogGreen has Nissan officials on the record saying that it
wants to test the hybrid market in regions that will be most
receptive, but off the record everyone understands that the
Altima Hybrid will help the automaker comply with these states'
partial zero emissions vehicle mandate. The problem is that
Nissan will be losing money on every Altima Hybrid sold, so those
who do live in states where the car is offered should appreciate
the deal on which the rest of us are missing out.
PRESS RELEASE:
Nissan Announces Pricing on 2007 Altima Hybrid
NASHVILLE, Tenn. (Jan. 30, 2007) Nissan today announced a
starting Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) of $24,400
for the 2007 Nissan Altima Hybrid, Nissan's first entry in the
hybrid electric vehicle market.
The new hybrid sedan is on sale now at Nissan retailers in the
eight states that have adopted California emissions regulations
California, Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New
York, Rhode Island and Vermont. The Altima Hybrid has been
certified by the Internal Revenue Service as meeting the
requirements for the Alternative Motor Vehicle Credit, thereby
qualifying for a tax credit of $2,350.
Altima Hybrid's EPA fuel economy is estimated at 42 mpg City and
36 mpg Highway. It is rated as an Advanced Technology-Partial
Zero Emissions Vehicle (AT-PZEV) and emits almost no evaporative
emissions.
"The Altima Hybrid offers all the style, convenience, comfort,
quality feel and performance technology features and highlights
of the next-generation 2007 Altima sedan, while offering the
added benefits of improved fuel economy and reduced emissions,"
said Bill Bosley, vice president and general manager, Nissan
Division. "Combined with Altima's standard 20-gallon fuel tank,
Altima Hybrid has a projected driving range of up to 700 miles
between fill-ups. More importantly, it drives just like any other
Nissan with smooth acceleration, responsive handling and a
seamless delivery of power under almost all driving conditions."
The Altima Hybrid features a high level of standard equipment,
including 16-inch alloy wheels, Intelligent Key with Push Button
Ignition, power windows/door locks, 6-speaker AM/FM/CD system
with auxiliary audio input jack, Anti-lock Braking System (ABS),
Vehicle Dynamic Control (VDC), Traction Control System (TCS) and
dual-zone automatic temperature control that includes an Altima
Hybrid-specific electrically powered A/C that continues to
provide cooling when the gasoline engine is stopped.
It also offers an extensive list of standard safety features,
including the Nissan Advanced Air Bag System (AABS), front
seat-mounted side-impact supplemental air bags for chest
protection, roof-mounted curtain side-impact supplemental air
bags for front and rear outboard occupant head protection and
front seat Active Head Restraints.
Altima Hybrid is offered in one model and with three available
option packages Convenience Package, Connection Package (with
either SiriusÔ or XMÒ satellite radio) and Technology Package.
The 2007 Nissan Altima is also available in five other models:
Altima 2.5, 2.5 S, 2.5 S with SL Package and two 3.5-liter
V6-powered models, the Altima 3.5 SE and 3.5 SL. The all-new 2008
Altima Coupe is scheduled to go on sale in summer 2007.
"The new Altima has been a tremendous success since it was
launched in November, helping fuel record Altima sales of nearly
25,000 units in December 2006, marking an increase of nearly 40
percent over the previous year," said Bosley. "The new Altima
Hybrid expands the choices available for our buyers, keeping
Altima at the forefront of the segment in terms of value,
performance, quality, technology and selection."
About the 2007 Altima Hybrid
The Altima Hybrid powertrain mates a refined version of Nissan's
QR25 2.5-liter 4-cylinder engine and standard electronically
controlled CVT with an advanced electric drive motor/generator
that increases fuel economy while maintaining low tailpipe
emissions.
The advanced energy drive system shares duties between the
gasoline-powered 4-cylinder and the emissions-free electric motor
allowing the Altima Hybrid to run solely on electric power if
appropriate, especially during stop-and-go driving. If extra
performance is needed, the gasoline engine starts instantly and
smoothly adds power as required. The Altima Hybrid has a hybrid
system net power rating of 198 horsepower (148 kW). Acceleration
from zero to 60 mph is estimated at about 0.5 seconds quicker
than a standard 2.5-liter 4-cylinder equipped Altima.
The Altima Hybrid utilizes regenerative braking technology to
recharge the hybrid system's batteries. The Regenerative
Cooperative Brake System calculates braking force generated by
brake pedal operation and controls the regenerative brake force
to convert kinetic energy into electric energy, optimizing energy
regeneration.
In order to power the electric motor, a generator places
resistance on the driveshaft during braking. The system converts
this friction to usable energy that is stored in the system's
244.8V Nickel Metal Hydride (Ni-MH) battery for eventual use by
the electric motor.
Helping provide smooth acceleration and maximize powertrain
efficiency is the Altima Hybrid's hybrid system-specific eCVT,
which works in conjunction with the Hybrid Vehicle-Electric
Control Unit (HV-ECU) to determine which power source or
combination of power sources will turn the wheels.
Altima Hybrid's electric motor produces high torque at low rpm,
allowing it to utilize its Electric Vehicle (EV) mode to power
the car from a standing idle and through initial acceleration
without the assistance of the gasoline engine. Standing-start
acceleration is typically a gasoline-only powered vehicle's least
fuel-efficient stage and Altima Hybrid offers much of its
fuel-efficiency benefits here.
Altima Hybrid's all-electric mode, called Electric Vehicle (EV)
mode, occurs in the initial acceleration phase. After the
electric motor provides initial acceleration, the gasoline engine
quietly starts and assumes the load of powering the vehicle.
The gasoline engine works independently through cruising speeds
until the vehicle reaches speeds at which fuel efficiency
declines. When loads require, the electric motor starts again and
aids the gasoline engine in powering the Altima Hybrid. This
allows the gasoline engine to remain in its ideal rpm range while
the axle rpm simultaneously increases due to the extra power
being contributed by the electric motor.
A digital display on the speedometer indicates when the Altima
Hybrid is running solely on electric power. The Altima Hybrid's
available DVD navigation system also features a real-time display
showing how the hybrid system directs the flow of energy.
Serving as the foundation for all fourth generation 2007 Altimas
including Hybrid is Nissan's all-new "D" platform with
improved body rigidity and a redesigned suspension. The new
platform includes a subframe-mounted front suspension with new
geometry and shock absorbers with rebound springs. The
half-shafts now have equal angles and are more parallel to the
ground virtually eliminating traditional front-wheel drive
torque steer.
Altima's new body design is a continuation of its distinctive,
iconic, sporty design. The exterior features an aggressive
stance, a strong wedge character line and signature Altima-style
taillights. Inside, the new Altima utilizes refined workmanship,
high-quality materials and a long list of available amenities.
The Altima Hybrid shares exterior and interior designs with the
other 2007 Altima models with the exception of unique Hybrid
badging, roof-mounted antenna and hybrid power/charge display in
the driver information display.
The Altima Hybrid also joins other Altima models with an
impressive list of available convenience features, including
leather-appointed seating, Bluetoothâ hands-free phone system,
RearViewä Monitor, satellite radio and Nissan's Advanced
Navigation System with real-time Energy Flow Display.
The new Altima is assembled at the Nissan North America
Manufacturing Smyrna, Tennessee plant.
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Peter VanDerWal
>What cells are they using then? I was under the impression that the whole
>NiMH concept was patented.
That's my understanding as well. The nimh cell itself is patented, regardless
of size or capacity.
The problem with getting large EV-size nimh cells is that
Texaco/Chevron/Cobasys will not *license* anyone to build large cells. All the
licenses they have given allow only small cells. They have been very agressive
at pursuing anyone who violates their patents or license agreements.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Give me a big f**king break here. Israel is a country that can make an
atomic bomb but not a viable electric car with current battery technology.
["What prevents electric cars from becoming the perfect solution to the
problems of air pollution and the dependence on fuel," Melamed writes, "is
the lack of a good enough technology for the storing of electric energy. The
batteries that currently exist do not last long enough before needing to be
recharged, which itself takes too long..."] Let's ship Madman over there
with some PFCs and low internal resistant "old school" lead acid batteries.
Tel Aviv to Jerusalem is 35 miles. The whole darn country is less than the
size of New Jersey. Like I said, Give me a f**king break. After a while
these totally ignorant and ridiculous statements in the press just make me
want to puke. Sorry for being so graphic. I am reaching the end of my
tolerance level for BS.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "bruce parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evlist" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 8:28 PM
Subject: EVLN(Israeli EVs for Israel, Jordan & Palestinian buyers)
EVLN(Israeli EVs for Israel, Jordan & Palestinian buyers)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=120552
Electric-Car Factory in Israel Discussed at Davos
16:20 Jan 30, '07 / 11 Shevat 5767 by Hillel Fendel
At the just-ended World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland,
Shimon Peres held informal talks about building an electric-car
factory in Israel with representatives of Toyota and Renault.
The idea was originally that of Shai Agassi, President of
Germany's SAP, the world's largest business software company.
Agassi, a Raanana native who was chosen in 2003 by TIME/CNN as
its #1 Global Business Influential, shared the idea with Peres.
Israel's Vice Premier told the car companies that the government
would be willing to provide grants and tax benefits for the
construction of such factories. Renault apparently showed
significant interest in the idea.
Peres said that battery-operated cars manufactured in Israel
could supply Israel, Jordan and the Palestinian Authority, thus
guaranteeing its viability.
The main challenge of the project would be finding a way to
cheaply manufacture an electric battery with which to start the
car. Agassi expressed optimism that Israeli research and
development teams could produce solutions, and the knowledge
could help in building similar factories elsewhere.
Israel's long-term interest is to reduce its dependency on oil.
To this end, the government is also considering encouraging
Israelis to replace their gas-powered cars with electric ones.
Subsidies would be provided for the purpose.
Gil Melamed, Maariv's automobile commentator, explains that
Israel cannot realistically consider manufacturing cars, but
rather batteries that would power the electric vehicles. "What
prevents electric cars from becoming the perfect solution to the
problems of air pollution and the dependence on fuel," Melamed
writes, "is the lack of a good enough technology for the storing
of electric energy. The batteries that currently exist do not
last long enough before needing to be recharged, which itself
takes too long... If Israel invests in developing battery
technology and production of advanced batteries, we can
definitely become an important player in the car industry of the
future."
Published: 09:13 January 30, 2007 Last Update: 16:20 January 30,
2007 All rights reserved IsraelNationalNews ©
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Fred Hartsell
>I am using 20 Interstate u-2400 batteries... Last positive connection of the
>pack to chassis ground was 115.7 vdc.
You have a common problem; one that occurs sooner or later for anyone with
flooded batteries. The outside of the battery has a coating of acid mist, which
is making it slightly conductive -- enough so you can get a "tingle" from it,
and enough to read on your high-impedance meter.
Wash the batteries with water and a little baking soda to neutralize the acid,
and it will go away... for a while. As the batteries age, they gas more, and
the problem gets more frequent.
It's also possible, though less likely, that you have a cracked battery case or
a leak around a battery post. If so, the battery case will keep getting wet
again even if you don't charge it to cause any gassing.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 23:52:36 -0500 (EST), you wrote:
>From: Peter VanDerWal
>>What cells are they using then? I was under the impression that the whole
>>NiMH concept was patented.
>
>That's my understanding as well. The nimh cell itself is patented, regardless
>of size or capacity.
>
>The problem with getting large EV-size nimh cells is that
>Texaco/Chevron/Cobasys will not *license* anyone to build large cells. All the
>licenses they have given allow only small cells. They have been very agressive
>at pursuing anyone who violates their patents or license agreements.
I'm not disagreeing with you guys, but there are now at least two
companies which claim (I'm not saying they're right or that they're
wrong) that they do not need to license from
Cobasys/Ovonic/ECD/whoever, and they both seem to do this Bi-Polar
approach to NiMH. One is Nilar, the other is Electro Energy (who did
a PHEV with CalCars, for example).
Another company Goldpeak (GP) is making NiMH for the Vectrix Scooter
on an older license from ECD, before they started what seems to many
of us to be a global "clamping down".
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My idea is that they bulk-buy the cells, then assemble them
into modules, the innovation being the standard 24V modules,
allowing 48, 72, 96, 120, 144V packs and higher.
I would hope they have the per-cell management integrated
into the module to handle the current sharing issues in
parallel cells and balancing of series.
Anybody knows what 5 P/E is?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 8:53 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: (fwd) Nilar NiMH batteries don't use Chevron's patents...
From: Peter VanDerWal
>What cells are they using then? I was under the impression that the whole
>NiMH concept was patented.
That's my understanding as well. The nimh cell itself is patented,
regardless of size or capacity.
The problem with getting large EV-size nimh cells is that
Texaco/Chevron/Cobasys will not *license* anyone to build large cells. All
the licenses they have given allow only small cells. They have been very
agressive at pursuing anyone who violates their patents or license
agreements.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> EVLN(Voltageville vied for Tesla EV plant)
> [The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
> informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
> --- {EVangel}
> http://www.thereporter.com/business/ci_5117856
> Vacaville try fails for plant
> By Amanda Janis/Business Editor
> Article Launched: 01/30/2007 06:17:42 AM PST
>
> For months, Vacaville's been vying for an electric vehicle
> asembly plant that's valued at $100 million and would create
> approximately 300 high-tech jobs.
>
> But the chief executive for the Silcon Valley start-up scouting
> locations told The Reporter that the numbers simply don't add up
> to build a plant in California.
>
> "There are some states that are very, very interested in having
> green manufacturing, and California doesn't seem to be one of
> them," Martin Eberhard, Tesla Motors' CEO, said in a phone
> interview.
>
> "Take, for example, New Mexico," he said. "New Mexico has made it
> a very clear priority that they want to attract new companies and
> especially green manufacturing - they've put a number of programs
> in place to do so."
>
> With regard to Arizona, he said, "I have had two phone calls
> personally from the governor and they've proposed all kinds of
> programs to make it easier for us to locate there."
>
> And, Eberhard added, the governor of Michigan "cornered" him to
> make it clear any obstacles to building its plant there would be
> cleared from Tesla's path.
>
> In California, on the other hand, Eberhard said, "I get shunted
> to a fellow in the California governor's office," who, he
> quipped, may as well change his name to "Dr. No." He was
> basically told the state doesn't believe in business incentives,
> he said.
>
> Offers made by North Carolina and Arizona would cut the plant's
> initial start-up costs by more than $15 million, while the golden
> state has offered $20 million in annual tax credits on machinery
> and tax credits of up to $30,000 per employee if the company
> locates in an Enterprise Zone, the Silicon Valley Business
> Journal reported.
>
> But Enterprise Zones are designed to encourage development in
> blighted areas, and Vacaville does not qualify for them. Nor can
> it financially match the deals from other states on its own.
>
> "Vacaville as a city made a very strong presentation to us and
> was very enthusiastic," noted Eberhard. "But Vacaville can't
> solve the sort of financial differences (at stake)."
>
> "It's extraordinarily difficult to compete," admitted Mike
> Palombo, Vacaville's economic development manager. "When we
> started this process, we thought we had a good chance given our
> history with electric vehicles, the fact that we're a
> pro-business community ... and we thought we could put together a
> reasonable business incentives package."
>
> Without additional help from the state, however, the city is
> limited to return-to-source type packages like the one it offered
> Genentech, in which the city agreed to return a portion of the
> company's property taxes for a given number of years.
>
> City employees' long-established use of electric vehicles,
> Vacaville's creation of an electric vehicle incentive program for
> residents, and its location may count for something, Palombo
> said.
>
> "We believe Northern California is a hotbed of electric vehicle
> use, and we're right in the middle of the market," he said.
>
> San Ramon-based Tesla developed the Tesla Roadster, a
> slick-looking, $92,000 fully electric roadster that goes from
> zero to 60 miles per hour in four seconds, and runs for nearly
> 250 miles per charge. That vehicle is currently assembled in the
> U.K. and will hit roads next year; the U.S. plant for which Tesla
> is scouting locations would assemble a lower-priced sedan, dubbed
> WhiteStar. WhiteStar is currently in development and expected to
> reach the market in 2009.
>
> Amanda Janis can be reached at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Burns my britches that my home town can't get the next generation
Tesla (a 4-door sedan) to be built here - What, do those in power
think it's a gamble to try and feed on the bleeding edge? I never know
enough about politics and finance to even guess what these people will
do with feasability statements and esoteric numbers floating around to
get them to start building a state-of-the-art car near the
agricultural heart of California, but it sounds like a fitting place
to start!
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If you go to their website you will see what they have done is "flatten"
a cylinder cell and then stack 10 of them to get a rectangular 12v cell.
This presumably lowers manufacturing cost and creates less weight by
eliminating the usual per-cell case packaging.
They would have the same issues for paralleling their 12v cells and you
have doing it with 1.2v cells.
But I am a little skeptical on why this packaging can somehow result in
a 2000 cycle life. With a more dense packaging, it seems to me this
reduces the surface area for heat transfer and would be worse than using
individual cells.
The "extremely high power rate" of 50A continous and 180A peak is
actually inferior to the Intellect NiMH D-cells I am using that can do
90A continous.
You must get a license to produce NiMH batteries.
Intellect has a license from Cobasys to produce their D-cells.
I would like to remind everyone of my previous offer to sell NiMH
battery packs with 120v 9Ah blocks at $900 each which includes a BMS.
Jack
Cor van de Water wrote:
My idea is that they bulk-buy the cells, then assemble them
into modules, the innovation being the standard 24V modules,
allowing 48, 72, 96, 120, 144V packs and higher.
I would hope they have the per-cell management integrated
into the module to handle the current sharing issues in
parallel cells and balancing of series.
Anybody knows what 5 P/E is?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 8:53 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: (fwd) Nilar NiMH batteries don't use Chevron's patents...
From: Peter VanDerWal
What cells are they using then? I was under the impression that the whole
NiMH concept was patented.
That's my understanding as well. The nimh cell itself is patented,
regardless of size or capacity.
The problem with getting large EV-size nimh cells is that
Texaco/Chevron/Cobasys will not *license* anyone to build large cells. All
the licenses they have given allow only small cells. They have been very
agressive at pursuing anyone who violates their patents or license
agreements.
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi everyone,
Thanks for the thoughtful replies. Yes, the truck is the one listed
on AustinEV. I would love to have NiMH batteries in the truck but
they are way out of my price range, I can barely afford the truck
with Trojan batteries as it is. I can only hope I'll get a couple
years out of those and then either I'll be able to afford more
expensive batteries or better batteries will be less expensive. I
asked him what the controller and motor were, as well as whether he
had wiring diagrams in addition to the original design
specifications, and here is what he said:
"The conversion is pretty standard - an Advanced DC 9" motor
(FB1-4001A) with a dual shaft and a Curtis 1231C controller,
72-120VDC, 550Amp max.
I do have some basic wiring diagrams for it, which I actually need to
update for a few modifications I did when redoing the battery boxes.
I also have a complete set of manuals for the electronics."
I have access to two ICE vehicles, my station wagon which is falling
apart but will probably last a good while yet if I'm not using it
much, and my girlfriend's (who lives with me) ford tempo which so far
has given us no trouble. My commute is very predicatable, under 6
miles each way and 99% of the time I don't travel more than 20 miles
each way on the weekend. Ideally I'd like to have a 40 mile range at
<=45MPH, but a 12 mile range (plus a little extra just in case) at
<=40MPH would work for most of my driving needs still. I am a bit of
a nomad, however, and am not sure if I'll be living here for more
than another year. If/when I do move it'll most likely be to MI
(which means hauling the thing across the country, again), and I
don't know what my driving situation will be there. Being a nomad is
my #1 problem in getting off fossil fuels and being more sustainable;
most investments make little sense economically if I am not going to
be in the same place for 5-10 years. Otherwise I'd probably invest in
solar water and PV panels first, but at least I can take the truck with me.
I recognize that driving a $10k EV that needs new batteries every
couple years isn't going to save me much money on gas unless it lasts
for a very, very long time, assuming gas prices don't double again.
If I can make it to the break even point I'll be happy. I asked
around and did find a golf cart dealer that would be willing to look
at the truck if I had any problems, but they said they can't
guarantee they'd be able to fix anything but what they sell. It's a
start, at least.
So what are my reasons for wanting an electric vehicle? For one I
think it would be really neat, but I am also seeing that our oil
problem is really, really bad, both in terms of peak oil and the
drive to invade countries that have the stuff we need. I'm seeing
that gasoline alternatives are still a long way off, questionable in
terms of practicality (producing less energy than the oil that went
into making them), and more often than not requiring a new
vehicle/engine to utilize. Which means if the technology is here in
10 years, we have to wait another 20-30 years for saturation.
Meanwhile it's apparent that an electric vehicle can run off of any
energy source, be that dams, gas, wood, coal, solar, wind, hydrogen,
biodiesel...anything you can generate electricity with. For now that
means I'll be switching from gas to coal, which is still probably an
improvement, but in the long term if I ever settle down long enough,
it means I can switch from coal to solar without any further vehicle
changes. So, why now? Well, my station wagon is a POS on its last
leg, and buying another ICE is just prolonging the inevitable. Also I
would probably buy a much cheaper ICE since I look at that as a short
term fix, but that also means something older with worse than average
fuel economy.
Unfortunately it all comes down to cost, it's going to take most of
what I've got to buy it and get it working, and the safe bet, at
least in the short term, is to pass on the truck and stick with an
ICE. I'm very indecisive when it comes to big decisions, and to me
this is a BIG decision.
On the topic of money, I'm just wondering, has anyone's EV garnered
enough attention to also get the notice of advertisers? I'm not sure
I'd want to drive a branded vehicle anyway, but it would be
interesting if "green" (or psuedo-green) companies were willing to
"sponsor" unique EVs.
As to the suggestion to look up other EVers in FL, so far I haven't
had any luck finding any in or near my area (Gainesville), but I will
keep looking!
I hope I haven't missed any questions/comments that were made to my
original post. Thanks again for the advice!
Jay
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--- Begin Message ---
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium
Lithium is a relatively abundant in various sources, its thirty-first
most abundant
element on earth. There is definitely more of it than there are dead
dinosaurs to go
around.
The only "peak" we can hit is production capacity, which just says that we
should bring more online. Chinese are doing that too.
Also, batteries are and should be recycled.
i'd call FUD on "peak lithium"
-kert
On 1/31/07, Tim Gamber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'm pretty sure that lithium is very common in many compounds just not in
pure form. I think we have lots of it so i wouldn't worry. Like hydrogen.
Hydrogen is really common but not in its pure form. Water, hydrocarbons...
>From: Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>Subject: Should I say "Peak Lithium" ?
>Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 09:48:32 -0800
>
>Read this story yesterday, on Bill Moor's EVWorld. He hinted to it last
>week. ( http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?page=article&storyid=1180 )
>
>I guess till this guy, William Tahil, Director of Research for Meridian
>International Research started to look at the world supply of lithium, no
>one gave it a thought..
>
>It is a little scary, and disheartening, to think that our "holy grail" of
>battery technology is already talked about as if it only has a 40 year
>run...
>
>Would like some one to prove this guy wrong... Before all the Nay -Sayers
>get a hold of the story and start to RUN with it. Like
>"Electric Car HOPES Dead on Arrival" or "Running out of Future Batteries
>before they START" and other such nonsense.
>
>--
>Steven S. Lough, Pres.
>Seattle EV Association
>6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
>Seattle, WA 98115-7230
>Day: 206 850-8535
>Eve: 206 524-1351
>e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>web: http://www.seattleeva.org
>
_________________________________________________________________
Your Space. Your Friends. Your Stories. Share your world with Windows Live
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EEI has their own NiMH patent US 6,887,620
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of murdoch
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 10:38 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: (fwd) Nilar NiMH batteries don't use Chevron's patents...
On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 23:52:36 -0500 (EST), you wrote:
>From: Peter VanDerWal
>>What cells are they using then? I was under the impression that the whole
>>NiMH concept was patented.
>
>That's my understanding as well. The nimh cell itself is patented,
regardless of size or capacity.
>
>The problem with getting large EV-size nimh cells is that
Texaco/Chevron/Cobasys will not *license* anyone to build large cells. All
the licenses they have given allow only small cells. They have been very
agressive at pursuing anyone who violates their patents or license
agreements.
I'm not disagreeing with you guys, but there are now at least two
companies which claim (I'm not saying they're right or that they're
wrong) that they do not need to license from
Cobasys/Ovonic/ECD/whoever, and they both seem to do this Bi-Polar
approach to NiMH. One is Nilar, the other is Electro Energy (who did
a PHEV with CalCars, for example).
Another company Goldpeak (GP) is making NiMH for the Vectrix Scooter
on an older license from ECD, before they started what seems to many
of us to be a global "clamping down".
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Part 2:
Thanks again to Bill, Derek, and A123 for supplying an amazing battery
pack that it is all it is touted as.
325 hp from 175 lbs is AWESOME! Too bad we never got to see all that it
really had but there is always tomorrow......
The AGNS drag minibike we built in 3 days ran a respectable 18 sec 1/4
mile at 66 mph on 18 pcs. (56 volts) of Milwaukee V28's.
This bike is another example of the amazing resilience of LI batteries.
We ran it around all afternoon and it still had 3/4 charge for the
first run. I decide last minute not to fit it with the new 2k Zilla but
instead used a couple of low powered Sevcons. (I must be getting
soft). I was kicking myself for not using the Zilla. I think the bike
could have made the 100 mph club. It WILL be installed for the next
race.
The OJ team spent Sunday at the Swamp Buggy Races in Naples, FL. I
have NEVER been to a more organized, well run, enjoyable motorsport
event. The nation's drag strips could all take a lesson about how to
put on a good show from these guys. Come to think of it so could
NASCAR. Where else do you see a 20 year old girl take a 4000 lb, 800
HP vehicle up on it's side, touch the water with her hand, set it back
down, regroup, and blast past the guy in front of her for the win. The
Swamp Buggy Queen herself and a knowledgable tech guy gave a personal
tour of the pits with hands on inspection of all the race vehicles and
answers to all our questions. And guess what, no lousy rap music
blaring from the speakers all night like at Moroso on Friday. They had
a live guitar player/singer. It all got me wondering about how we
could safely use a 374 volt battery pack in 5 ft of water. After all
the Zillas are water cooled..................
Waiting for Power of DC and 3000+ A123 cells.
Shawn Lawless
________________________________________________________________________
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