EV Digest 6391
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) EVLN(UE HS lost their EV conversion project in June's flood)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) EVLN(Honda Fit Hybrid)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) EVLN(Army finds nEVs "pretty much perfect")
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: [EV] Re: When a controller fails... question
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Cleaner by the Dozen
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Porsche invented the hub -mounted electric motor for his Porsche - Lohner
Chaise exhibited in 1900 at the paris world's fair
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Crimping Tool Choice
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dana Havranek)
8) Re: [EV] Cleaner by the Dozen
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Disconnects
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Crimping Tool Choice
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Series Hybrids eff, Re: EV digest 6372
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Crimping Tool Choice
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Crimping Tool Choice
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Surplus Center Prestolite motor
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 3-wheeler driving experiences / traction principles
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Crimping Tool Choice
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Electro Automotive AC motor kit - MM
by "Michele McGeoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Surplus Center Prestolite motor
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Hydrogen Electric Racing?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Forklift motor
by Tom Gocze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Three Wheels
by Tom Gocze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(UE HS lost their EV conversion project in June's flood)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.pressconnects.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070205/LIFESTYLE/702050303
Monday February 5, 2007 LIFESTYLE
U-E students work on an environmentally friendly car
[
http://vh10924.moc.gbahn.net/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=CB&Date=20070205&Category=LIFESTYLE&ArtNo=702050303
]
Members of the Union-Endicott High School Technology Club watch
intently as they attempt to start a diesel 1986 Volkswagen Jetta,
which they are trying to convert to a vegetable oil-fueled
vehicle. Derick Struble waits in the driver's seat for the signal
from Jorey Wolfe, who watches a battery charger at left. Advisor
Tom Palazzo, pictured here working on the engine, assists other
club members with the vehicle's fuel pump.
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http://vh10924.moc.gbahn.net/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=CB&Date=20070205&Category=LIFESTYLE&ArtNo=702050303&Ref=V2
]
Jorey Wolfe, left, Jim Garceau, center, and Asa Melia, members of
the Union-Endicott High School Technology Club, troubleshoot a
fuel supply problem in the engine of their project.
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http://vh10924.moc.gbahn.net/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=CB&Date=20070205&Category=LIFESTYLE&ArtNo=702050303&Ref=H3&Profile=1004
]
Lexi Oltmer and Nick Rosa research parts for the club's project.
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http://vh10924.moc.gbahn.net/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=CB&Date=20070205&Category=LIFESTYLE&ArtNo=702050303&Ref=V4
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Union-Endicott High School Technology Club advisor Tom Palazzo
looks at a fuel pump as the group works to fix a fuel supply
problem.
The Union-Endicott High School Technology Club lost the electric
car it was working on in June's flood.
Tom Palazzo, the club's advisor, reached into the back of his
mind and resurrected the idea, this time with the thoughts of
creating a veggie-oil car -- a vehicle that could, in large part,
run on leftovers from a Burger King deep fryer. A former student
donated a 1986 Volkswagen Jetta with a diesel engine for the club
members to work on.
"It completely did not work," said Palazzo. "No brakes, no power,
no battery, no anything."
Palazzo and his students had their work cut out for them.
Little by little, they have treated the car's major problems
while on a small budget. Last week, they traced a large part of
the car's problems to a faulty fuel pump. On Wednesday, they were
confident they could get it to run, but try as they might it
still would not go.
They'll try again next week...
===
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oGklq_UspFu5MAOdil87UF?p=Union-Endicott+High+School+Technology+Club
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
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. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Honda Fit Hybrid)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16526204/site/newsweek/?from=rss
Honda Primes the Pump
Taking aim at Toyota, Honda readies a new hybrid car for the
mainstream market.
Web Exclusive By Keith Naughton Newsweek
Updated: 9:06 a.m. PT Jan 8, 2007
Jan. 8, 2007 - Falling gas prices have taken some of the steam
out of hybrid car sales lately. But you wouldnt know that from
all the buzz about hybrids at the opening day of the Detroit Auto
Show. First, GM introduced its Chevy Volt plug-in hybrid concept.
And then Honda CEO Takeo Fukui revealed in an interview with
NEWSWEEK that his company is developing an all-new small hybrid
car that he described as a five-passenger version of its quirky
two-seater, the Insight gas-electric car. But unlike the Insight,
which sells in small numbers to die-hard greenies, Fukui says
this new Honda hybrid will be aimed at mainstream car buyers when
it hits the road in two or three years. Hybrid technology is
very strong and proven technology for improving fuel economy, he
says. And we wont relent in our efforts.
For Honda, this new hybrid could finally be the answer to the
megawatt popularity of the Toyota Prius, which controls more than
half the market for hybrids in the U.S. Even though the Honda
Insight was the first hybrid on the U.S. market when it launched
in 1998, the Prius, with its larva shape and 60 miles per gallon
fuel economy, has come to define hybrids in America. Unlike the
cramped little Insight, the Prius offers the five-passenger
spaciousness of a Camry, with gas mileage better than its smaller
sibling, the Toyota Corolla. By contrast, Hondas hybrid version
of its five-seat Accord model flopped in the market, Fukui
admitted, because it didnt deliver the good fuel economy hybrid
buyers expected. Lately, though, sales of all hybrids have slowed
as gas prices have fallen back toward $2 a gallon.
Hondas new hybrid, though, wont be a version of anything else
in its lineup. Instead, like the Prius, Hondas new hybrid will
have its own design from the wheels up. We can envision
something close to the Insight with five-passenger capacity and a
relatively low price for mass-market consumers, says Fukui.
How low will the price be? Honda wont say. But the company
offers a clue in how it describes the car. Code-named Global
Small Hybrid, Hondas new car will be about the size of its tiny
Fit model, which is positioned just below the subcompact Civic in
size and price. The Fit starts just under $14,000. So even with
the $3,000 or $4,000 premium you pay for a hybrid, this new Honda
could be priced below $20,000, potentially making it the least
expensive hybrid on the market.
It also could be among the most miserly on gaseven topping the
Prius. The Hondas unique body shape and propulsion system will
be designed to maximize mileage, company officials say. Were
going to take a dedicated hybrid platform and give it great
functionality, great style and make a no-compromises
high-fuel-economy car, says John Mendel, Honda senior vice
president for product development. It will have the highest fuel
economy you can get for a hybrid in that (size) of car. (It
wont, however, be a plug-in hybrid like the Volt, Mendel says,
because that would require a breakthrough in battery technology
that would delay Hondas plans.)
Honda has high hopes this hybrid will be a home run. In fact,
Fukui expects to sell as many as 100,000 models annually, nearly
matching the 107,000 Prius models sold in America last year. (By
comparison, Hondas current top-selling hybrid, the Civic, sold
31,253 models last year.) Eventually, Fukui expects his hybrid
model could sell double that amount. Because hybrids have become
so popular, he says, it is quite feasible to sell 100,000 to
200,000
So when we start from there, we can afford to pay for a
new body style that is exclusive to the car.
Hybrid sales reached a record 191,000 models in the U.S. in 2006.
But that still accounts for only a little over 1 percent of the
16.5 million autos purchased in America last year. Toyota, the
most bullish hybrid proponent, sees the U.S. market for the
gas-electric models growing to 300,000 this year. Toyota Motor
America President Jim Press told NEWSWEEK that every model in his
company's lineup will eventually come in a hybrid version. "The
take rate on hybrids will accelerate as fuel prices increase and
we focus on reducing our dependence on foreign oil and reducing
carbon dioxide, a leading cause of global warming, he says. "So
everything is converging to where the solution is hybrids."
Normally, Honda would never reveal so much about a car that
likely wont hit the showroom until 2009 or 2010. But with Toyota
running away with the hybrid marketand nervous consumers
demanding more fuel-efficient modelsHonda is trying to prime the
pump and remind the public that it was selling hybrids before
they were cool. We think this could be a huge opportunity for
us, says Mendel. Its our next-generation view of hybrids. In
a few years, Honda will have a chance to see if its view squares
with that of the car-buying public.
© 2007 Newsweek, Inc.
===
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=109394
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Army finds nEVs "pretty much perfect")
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.army.mil/-news/2007/02/06/1726-monroe-pmo-dumps-the-pump-with-new-admin-vehicle/
Monroe PMO 'Dumps the Pump' With New Admin Vehicle
Feb 06, 2007 BY Patrick Buffett
[
http://www.army.mil/-images/2007/02/06/2439/army.mil-2007-02-06-122507.jpg
]
Maj. Heidi Kavanaugh, Fort Monroe Provost Marshal, proudly
demonstrates the capabilities of her offices new Neighborhood
Electric Vehicle that was delivered last week. The four-seater
uses about the same amount of power as a 75-watt light bulb. It
can travel up to 35 miles on a full charge. Photo by Patrick
Buffett
FORT MONROE, Va. (Army News Service, Feb. 6, 2007) - It may not
be equipped for high-speed chases or hauling in bad guys, but the
new Provost Marshal Office vehicle that arrived here in late
January includes one key feature that's quite remarkable.
No matter how far it travels, it won't use a single drop of gas.
With seating for up to four people, a maximum speed of 25 mph and
a range of 35 miles on a full charge, the Neighborhood Electric
Vehicle - or NEV - is "pretty much perfect" for everyday
administrative transportation requirements on post, according to
Maj. Heidi Kavanaugh, Fort Monroe provost marshal.
The white, bubble-shaped buggy is completely street legal -
meaning it's equipped with windshield wipers, rearview mirrors,
headlights, taillights, seat belts, a parking brake and other
features. The battery that makes the NEV go can be recharged from
any standard 110-volt outlet.
"We're renting the vehicle from the Navy for about $180 a month,"
Kavanaugh explained. "We don't pay anything for maintenance,
which is minimal from what I understand, and they'll replace it
if anything does malfunction."
All of that is seriously good news to an organization that has
been paying as much as $3,000 annually for the upkeep of each one
of its gas-powered "mules" - those red, two-seat carts that are
often seen darting around post. Rust is one of the biggest
problems, Kavanaugh noted. They also require a lot of engine
work.
"One of our mules died recently, so we were in the market for a
replacement vehicle," she explained. "Several months back, Col.
(Jason T.) Evans challenged the garrison directors to find new
ways to support the environmental program. That was in the back
of my mind when we (the PMO leadership) heard about the NEVs. So
we decided to take a look to see if one of those would fit our
purposes. Obviously, it did and here we are today."
What the NEV represents is as important as its ability to save
energy and reduce harmful exhaust emissions, noted Peter Van Dyke
from the Fort Monroe Environmental Office.
"It's a good example of what happens when you think a little bit
outside the box," he continued. "PMO could have easily purchased
another gas-consuming vehicle and carried on with business as
usual. Instead, they took a little time to explore alternatives
that were more environmentally friendly. And we all win because
of the cost savings in the areas of maintenance and fuel
consumption; and it sets a precedent for other organizations that
may want to go the same route.
"It's also great to see that organizations and tenants on post
are being good environmental stewards without any arm twisting
from the environmental division," Van Dyke said. "This is at the
heart of what we've been trying to accomplish here with our
education efforts and environmental management system."
Kavanaugh said she's excited about the community's response to
the NEV - numerous employees have flagged her down and asked for
a ride. And she said she would be "more than happy" to put other
agencies on the installation in touch with the folks who provided
the NEV.
"I think you're going to see at least a few more of these cars on
post in the near future," she added. "Given the size of the
installation and its limited parking, it really is a great
solution. And it's another way to demonstrate our determination
to save Army money and protect the environment at the same
time."
While motorists may not see actual NEV's out on the open road
anytime soon - they're too slow for most highways and many city
ordinances limit their use to 35-mph-zones - the concept itself
is certainly a sign of things to come. Following his State of the
Union address last week, President Bush signed an executive order
mandating that all federal agencies with more than 20 vehicles
use "plug-in hybrid electric vehicles," or PHEVs, as soon as they
become commercially available.
GM introduced the plug-in prototype Chevrolet Volt at the 2007
North American International Auto Show in Detroit earlier this
month. Ford, in conjunction with the Energy Department, has spent
about $100 million on its fleet of 11 PHEV prototypes, to include
the Edge HySeries. More than 20 Dodge Sprinter PHEVs will be
placed in the U.S. between now and early 2008 as part of a test
fleet program, according to a DaimlerChrysler press release.
The cost of powering a PHEV is 2 to 4 cents a mile, compared with
8 to 20 cents per mile (depending on fuel efficiency) for a
conventional gasoline-powered car, according to a recent Union
Tribune news article found on the Internet. Plug-in prototypes
typically go 20 to 30 miles on battery power alone, with zero
emissions, the article also said.
Since the average American commutes less than 30 miles per day,
many PHEV owners would rarely have to use gas, except to go on
trips. It's also estimated that a typical PHEV sedan would get
100 miles or more per gallon of gas, on average, when longer
trips are factored in.
(Patrick Buffett writes for the Fort Monroe "Casemate.)
===
http://www.gemcar.com/asp/gsa_advantage.asp
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
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. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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--- Begin Message ---
James Massey wrote:
> This talk of redundant safeties, etc, and dopping contactors off a
> controller, I thought of my driving habits and I can see that
> unless you live on flat ground, dropping out the traction
> contactor/s with the brake or clutch pedal *on their own* would
> make the vehicle undriveable to a 'normal' driver.
I suppose it depends on what "normal" means ;^>
Vancouver (BC) is anything but flat, and my EV is quite drivable despite
dropping the contactor each time the throttle is released. Hold on, I
know you wrote regarding the brake or clutch pedal, not the throttle,
but hear me out. When forced to stop on a hill, I will almost always
hold my position using the hand brake rather than the foot brake. While
I long ago mastered the heel-and-toe technique required to manipulate
all three pedals when starting a manual tranny ICE vehicle on a hill, in
my "old age" I've decided that it is much easier to use the hand brake
and two pedals (for ICE; one for EV) instead. So, having the contactor
drop out when the foot brake is pressed and pick up when the throttle is
pressed would leave the vehicle quite usable provided one considers
using the handbrake to hold position on hills "normal". If not,
dropping out the contactor with the clutch and picking it up with the
throttle would leave the vehicle fully drivable by anyone used to
driving an automatic since one does not use the clutch pedal when
placing an EV into motion (you can, but since you can't hear the motor
rev and since it revs quite quickly you are then at very real risk of
exploding the motor or burning the clutch).
> So, if dropping the traction B+ contactor with the accelerator 'home'
> position, it would be prudent to:
> a) monitor the voltage across the precharge resistor and drop
> out the system (all contactors) if the precharge resistor voltage
> exceeds a certain threshold
I think the logic you want is to drop out all contactors if the voltage
across the precharge resistor is *below* some threshold when the
contactor that shorts it is supposed to be open. Even this may fail
since you would leave the precharge relay closed except when turning off
the ignition, and so the voltage across the precharge resistor might
remain very low even when the main contactor opens. It may depend on
what sort of fault you are trying to detect: if the contactor fails to
open when it should, then you may want to drop out all contactors and
prevent vehicle operation, or perhaps what you are looking for is that
the controller is still trying to draw significant current even though
the main contactor is open? If the later, then there is no real need to
do anything other than including an appropriately rated (small) fuse in
series with the precharge resistor. If the controller tries to draw
significant current through the resistor, it will fail open in very
short order, however, since it is not guaranteed to clear your pack
voltage the best plan is to include a small fuse that is and will blow
first.
> b) Since the accelerator may stick and not return to home
> position, for a clutched vehicle it would be possible to
> drop the B+ traction contactor when both brake AND clutch
> pedal together are pressed
I certainly don't want to be the one responsible for testing that this
scheme will work when called upon! ;^> (If it doesn't, BANG goes the
motor; so might as well just say to push in the clutch and kiss your
motor good bye in the event of a runaway/etc.)
> c) for a clutchless or transmissionless system it it is not
> possible to detect 'not got foot on accelerator' so another
> thing needs to do the job - and since you need to be able
> to have your foot on the brake whilst you bring up motor
> power to prevent roll-back, simply detecting brake light is
> not enough. Detection of high motor loop or moderate battery
> loop amps + brake light takes care of controller fail-on,
> but maybe not stuck throttle 'walk away' with maybe 10% or
> less power.
Clutch/tranny or not, the first response should always be to release the
throttle and the second is to press the brake; runaway or walkaway type
failures will both be halted by logic that drops out the contactor(s)
whenver the brake pedal is pressed and motor loop current is above some
threshold. (In the event of a walkaway, battery current will remain
low, but pressing on the brake pedal will cause motor current to
increase.)
The problem with this scheme is that of nuisance tripping if the motor
current when starting on a hill exceeds the shutdown logic threshold.
Kind of reminescent of a new driver repeatedly stalling stalling the ICE
as they try to get moving again on a hill with a manual tranny vehicle
;^)
The nuisance tripping can be avoided by making the logic only look at
motor loop current when the brake is pressed and the throttle is
released. The downside is that you immediately lose the ability for the
system to shut itself down in the event that the failure is the throttle
sticking open.
For me, the main problem with these schemes is that they depend on the
home-builder designing and building a safety circuit that will be
reliable in an automotive environment. The more sophisticated such
logic is made, the more likely it is to either result in nuisance
tripping or simply to not work when it is finally called upon. Anyone
implementing such logic really needs to build it such that the vehicle
cannot be placed into motion in the first place unless the safety logic
is working properly.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Green group produces list of top 12 eco-friendly vehicles
American autos are drowning their sorrows in foreign oil after not making
the 2007 Green Book list of the top 12 eco-friendly vehicles, released
yesterday by the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy. Honda's
natural-gas-powered Civic GX (available only in California and New York)
regained its top spot for the third time in four years; the Toyota Prius was
the first runner-up, followed by Honda Civic and Nissan Altima hybrids and
the subcompact Toyota Yaris. The ACEEE, which based its calculations on fuel
economy and emissions, also put out a bottom 12 list, chock full of
diesel-powered European models that will soon face stricter diesel
standards. Also heartening: four new models made the clean dozen, and a
bunch more just missed the cut. "It used to be the case that the greenest
vehicles were a select number of models that stood far above the pack," says
Green Book author James Kliesch. "Today, the eco-friendly field has become
much more crowded, and that's good news for consumers."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Additionally he conceived of a gas engine driving a generator which
would supply the electric power required to drive the road wheels to
avoid the use of heavy batteries.
Page 17
Fascinating that a revered gas auto designer actually preferred
electrics at the beginning of his career.
In a book called "beyond expectation" by k b hopfinger about ferdinand
porsche I was surprised to learn he invented the hub mounted electric
motor to drive his electrical car design to avoid the losses of
transmissions and drive belts.
One in each front wheel.
9 miles per hour 32 mile range
Porsche was 25 yrs old.
Photo attached.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dennis,
I didn't use a hammer crimper but made up my own die and used it in a cheapo 12
ton press.
It's a typical single crimp parallel to the wire.
The full capacity of 12 tons was needed to crimp a 4/0 lug.
I cut one of the lugs in half and the cable appeared as a solid piece of copper.
No air space at all (at least not to the naked eye).
I've never used a hammer crimper, but with a little practice (whack!) you
probably would come close to the same results.
Might be hard to get the same results with a modified bolt cutter, though.
Dana
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Has anyone ever rigged up a hammer crimper with a cheap hydraulic bottle
> jack?
> Seems like a cheap way to make a more reliable type of crimper.
>
> Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Electro Automotive [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 8:47 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Crimping Tool Choice
>
> At 05:00 PM 2/6/2007, you wrote:
> >Check the archives for "crimping" to get a full discussion X3 or X5.
> >
> >If you can weld, here is my suggestion:
> >http://www.haritech.com/crimp.htm
> >
> >Folks have successfully used the hammer crimpers, but they are not
> >ideal.]
>
> However, we have sold them to Boeing, so I guess they must be ok.
>
> Shari Prange
> Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
> http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Electric Car Conversion
> Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, Feb 07, 2007 at 03:28:02PM -0800, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> Green group produces list of top 12 eco-friendly vehicles
>
> American autos are drowning their sorrows in foreign oil after not making
> the 2007 Green Book list of the top 12 eco-friendly vehicles, released
> yesterday by the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy. Honda's
> natural-gas-powered Civic GX (available only in California and New York)
> regained its top spot for the third time in four years; the Toyota Prius was
> the first runner-up, followed by Honda Civic and Nissan Altima hybrids and
> the subcompact Toyota Yaris. The ACEEE, which based its calculations on fuel
> economy and emissions, also put out a bottom 12 list, chock full of
> diesel-powered European models that will soon face stricter diesel
> standards. Also heartening: four new models made the clean dozen, and a
> bunch more just missed the cut. "It used to be the case that the greenest
> vehicles were a select number of models that stood far above the pack," says
> Green Book author James Kliesch. "Today, the eco-friendly field has become
> much more crowded, and that's good news for consumers."
Old standards. CO2 is the new real enemy and Diesels emit less than
gas vehicles if they get better mileage.
--
Eduardo K. | Some say it's forgive and forget.
http://www.carfun.cl | I say forget about forgiving just accept.
http://e.nn.cl | And get the hell out of town.
http://ev.nn.cl | Minnie Driver, Grosse Point Blank
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Condie wrote:
Is there a rule of thumb for contact gap distances required at
different voltages and currents?
Yes, but the breakdown voltage for air varies drastically. It depends on
how clean the air is, the atmospheric pressure, how sharply pointed the
contact surfaces are, how sharply the voltage across the gap rises,
whether arcing will "seed" the air with oxidized bits of the contacts
themselves, and so on.
The breakdown voltage of two sharp points in normal air is about 0.025"
per 1000v. For two smooth flat surfaces, it's about 3x greater; 0.075"
per 1000v.
Changing the air pressure changes its insulating ability
proportionately. Half the air pressure requires twice the contact
spacing; doubling the pressure allows half the spacing.
But you want a *large* safety factor in these numbers; they are the
absolute minimums. If an arc ever starts across these spacings, it will
not extinguish itself until the voltage falls significantly or the two
surfaces have burned open to a wider gap!
UL considers non-contact gaps (that should never have arcs between them)
to be at least 0.1" per 1000v, or 0.2" per 1000v if there would be a
safety hazard if it breaks down.
I've always wondered how the Czonkas could handle the high currents
they're rated for in such a small and lightweight package.
Certain gases have a higher breakdown voltage than air. Sulfur
hexafluoride (SF6) for example, has 2.5 times the insulating value of
air. You can also seal the contacts with gas at a much higher pressure.
This is what the Kilovac contactors do; they put the contacts in a
pressurized chamber filled with SF6 gas to get much higher breakdown
voltages.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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"We sold one to Boeing and it met their standards." implies (to the
average person) that it would be used for aircraft. I wanted to be
sure to dispel any whisper of a thought that a hammer crimper would
be suitable for commercial aircraft wiring or would be able to make
crimps of high enough quality for commercial aircraft use.
Hammer crimpers make, literally, "hit or miss" crimps. Most of the
time, the crimps they make are fine for EV use. If one fails, no one
will die, you will just redo to connection. If one is a bit high in
resistance, or there are broken strands in the cable, it would not be
a big deal in a typical EV.
If a hammer crimper were more expensive (or even the same price) than
a "bolt-cutter" style, would there be any proponents of the hammer
crimper? I don't think there would be many.
Bill Dube'
At 03:06 PM 2/7/2007, you wrote:
Who says it was used for an aviation application?
FAA rules do not apply if Boeing wanted to make battery
cables for their warehouse forklift.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Bill Dube
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 1:50 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Crimping Tool Choice
>>>
>>>However, we have sold them to Boeing, so I guess they must be ok.
>>
>> They most certainly would not be using them for an
>> airplane. The FAA would have their head on a pike for using a
>> hammer crimper. Probably for a fork lift or a car battery.
>
>I didn't ask what they were using them for. But apparently the tool
>met their standards.
>
>Shari Prange
The FAA requires that the crimp operation be done with a
tool that delivers the same (and the correct) displacement every time
it is operated. Ratchet type crimpers that will not retract until
fully actuated are the norm for aircraft use.
A hammer crimper would be unable to meet any "standard"
because the resultant crimp quality is highly variable. Even the same
operator would have varying results. Aside from 100% pull testing and
resistance testing, there would be no way to assure that each
connection was done with consistent quality.
If you hammer too hard or too much, you will cut the strands
of the cable, resulting in a poor connection. If you hammer too light
or too little, you will not deform the crimp enough to swage tightly
against the cable, causing a poor connection.
If it is OK to have an occasional bad connection that you
will correct when it lets go or heats up, then I guess a hammer
crimper will work for you. If, however, you want some degree of
consistency and quality control in your connections, you cannot use a
hammer crimper.
Here is what the FAA requires:
11-178. CRIMP ON TERMINAL LUGS
AND SPLICES (pre-insulated crimp type).
The crimp on terminal lugs and splices must
be installed using a high quality ratchet-type,
crimping tool. We recommend the use of the
proper calibrated tool. Aircraft quality crimp
tools are manufactured to standards. Such
tools are provided with positioners for the wire
size and are adjusted for each wire size. It is
essential that the crimp depth be appropriate
for each wire size. If the crimp is too deep or
not deep enough, it may break or cut individual
strands, or it may not be tight enough to
retain the wire in the terminal or connector.
Crimps that are not tight enough are also susceptible
to high resistance due to corrosion
build-up between the crimped terminal and the
wire. MIL-C22520/2 or MIL-T-DTl2250G
specification covers in detail the general requirement
for crimp tools, inspection gages
and tool kits.
a. Hand, portable, and stationary
power tools are available for crimping terminal
lugs. These tools crimp the barrel to the
conductor, and simultaneously from the insulation
support to the wire insulation.
b. Crimp tools must be carefully inspected:
(1) Insure that the full cycle ratchet
mechanism is tamper-proof so that it cannot be
disengaged prior to or during the crimp cycle.
(2) If the tool does not function or faults
are found, reject the tool and send the tool to
be repaired.
(3) The tool calibration and adjustments
are make only by the manufacturer or an approved
calibration laboratory.
(4) Suitable gages of the Go/No Go
type are available and shall be used prior to
AC 43.13-1B CHG 1 9/27/01
Page 11-70 Par 11-179
any crimping operation and whenever possible
during operation to ensure crimp dimensions.
1
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Somebody wrote:
For charge efficiency I normally figure an average of 11V on
discharge and 13.8V on charge with 100% coulometric. That gets
us around 80%. From 20% SOC to 80% SOC, the battery heats up
very little and doesn't gas. So where is the other 20% going?
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Batteries used in this manner (hybrid) actually heat up quite a bit.
I remember reading a report a few years back done by Optima (I think)
talking about the amount of cooling a hybrid PbA pack requires.
I seem to recall that it was a fair bit of active cooling required
and they STILL ran the pack at around 120 degrees case temperature
(higher temps increased efficiency, if you don't mind the loss in
life span).
They heat up because the plastic case forms a nicely insulated box. But
the heat actually being generated is fairly low.
The Optima test you mentioned might the one that is often used to
promote fast pulse charging. They deliberately charged the batteries
very fast and hard, to 16v or so. This *lowered* efficiency, by
producing a lot of heat. It certainly kept them plenty warm! The high
average temperatures this produced caused deceptively high amphour capacity.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Electro Automotive wrote:
I didn't ask what they were using them for. But apparently the tool met
their standards.
There is nothing intrinsically wrong with a hammer crimper. It can
produce crimps just as good as the expensive jaw-type crimping tools if
you use it correctly. It's just that's easier to produce bad crimps with
them if you don't know what you are doing. The jaw-type crimpers require
less skill to produce a good crimp.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Yes, thanks, I knew that would be a consideration...
On Feb 7, 2007, at 8:01 AM, Ralph Merwin wrote:
Mark,
One consideration is that you cannot use a hammer crimper "in vehicle"
since it needs to be sitting somewhere solid. With a hand crimper
such
as the one from evparts.com or that Bill Dube describes, you can
install
lugs on cables in the vehicle.
Ralph
MARK DUTKO writes:
Is there any difference in performance between the crimping tools you
"hammer" and the more expensive hand type like the ones sold at
Spectro Wire? Does one give you a better connection or more reliable
one? This is for 2/0 cable building.
Thanks,
Mark
www.electricyaris.com
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Hey Peter
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hey Jim, perhaps you have a used 6 or 7 inch motor
> you could offer these
> guys a deal on?
I do in fact pick up these sized motors fairly often
either free or really cheap and my pile grows almost
daily it seems. Rarely are they something that one
could use "as is" after my heathen customers are ready
to part with them, lol. Almost any really clean motor
will be a pump motor with a bad internal spline.
As far as those really clean ones go (mostly gifts
from Wayland) they've been the motors that I've built
up to donate to the NEDRA events when I can. Matter
of fact I'm thinking that 'ol Chip will be shooting me
a call here soon concerning Power of DC, lmao! The
others help me put a couple bucks into keeping my
little rat hole operational 8^ ) The ugly ones I rape
for parts 8^ O
Anyway I do try to help all I can, sometimes to where
it hurts. If nothing else I always try to offer an
un-biased opinion on the pros and cons of motors being
asked about. Anyway just hope people don't think I'm
a motor hoarding bastard hehe.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Want to start your own business?
Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index
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Osmo S. wrote:
There seems to be some contradiction in Peter´s and Lee´s replies. Or
maybe not if there is some other reason two wheels have better traction
besides larger contact area?
It's because at least 2/3 of the weight is on the 2-wheel axle. That's
twice as much weight as is on the back wheel. Thus, you can apply twice
the torque (twice the braking and twice the acceleration) before they slip.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What is the technique for a good one and what is a bad practice? One
hard hit?
M
On Feb 7, 2007, at 4:26 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
Electro Automotive wrote:
I didn't ask what they were using them for. But apparently the
tool met their standards.
There is nothing intrinsically wrong with a hammer crimper. It can
produce crimps just as good as the expensive jaw-type crimping
tools if you use it correctly. It's just that's easier to produce
bad crimps with them if you don't know what you are doing. The jaw-
type crimpers require less skill to produce a good crimp.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
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Has anyone bought the AC Light Vehicle Manual Transmission Kit from Electo
Automotive?
I'm trying to find out if they have documentation for it.
Thanks, Michele
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Jim Husted wrote:
If nothing else I always try to offer an
un-biased opinion on the pros and cons of motors being
asked about.
-------------------------
Unbiased? Sorry, biased by experience!
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Anyone on the EVDL have any info or insight into the Hydrogen Electric Racing
Federation? Today's USA Today had a blurb about the HERF beginning a racing
series in May 2009 with cars that are "similar in dimension to sports car
prototypes."
They intend to hold their debut race at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway and
estimate average lap speeds of approximately 185 mph.
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Am looking for some guidance. Been casually looking on ebay for an
11" forklift motor. Found one (maybe more) in my backyard. It is a GE
11" forklift motor with 9 hours on it. It is rated for 36/48VDC. I
know Lee Hart has commented that you can run most series motors at 3x
their rated voltage.
Am I remembering right? What are the potential problems? Would
appreciate any help anyone can offer. I have been thinking about
tying this type of motor directly to the differential of a RWD vehicle.
Thanks,
Tom in Maine (no warming this week)
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I had pretty poor traction in the winter on ice and snow with the
Gizmos. I never used them when the roads were not clear. I think I
could've if I had dedicated a drive wheel with studs for the winter.
There is no doubt in my mind that it would've been fine.
Tom
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