EV Digest 6433
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Battery charger recommendation
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Sprinter van
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Cost to drive a EV
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Living in an EV, was Re: EV digest 6431
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: FreedomEV Competition - or just more hype?
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: converting auto to man trans
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV digest 6432
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) RE: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Wiring up a Kostov...
by "Andrew A." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV digest 6432
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: EV digest 6432
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EV digest 6430
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Sunrise EV kitcar, was Re: Lithium Technology, Innosys
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: FreedomEV Competition - or just more hype?
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Wide vs Skinny Tires LRR
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Low Rolling Resistance Tires
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 16 Feb 2007 at 22:41, David Hrivnak wrote:
> Do you mind me asking what advantages did you see in
> the Delta-Q over the Zivan chargers?
I'm not Steve, but I'm going to take a guess : reliability and usability.
Zivan chargers are infamous for frequent failures. Their charge algorithms
are also infamous for beating the life out of batteries.
A pity really as Zivans are very reasonably priced, lightweight, isolated
switchmode chargers.
If only Zivan had fitted higher quality components, and made it possible for
users to tweak the charge control themselves. Of course then the price
would have been higher.
Delta-Q chargers are reportedly of higher quality, though I think I recall
reading that they're produced by contract assembly plants in China.
Also, regrettably, the Delta-Q algorithm is not under user control. With
some chargers, when a battery in your pack goes south, you can just remove
it, adjust the charger's finish voltage, and keep driving for a while. Not
so with a Zivan or Delta-Q. Such changes require factory (or perhaps
dealer) intervention.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
A nice and informative website about the Mercedes/Dodge Sprinter van,
its various models and smaller brothers and a lot of details about
what others changed to the van.
Look at the last paragraph!
http://www.whnet.com/4x4/sprinter.html
<http://www.whnet.com/4x4/sprinter.html>
Cor.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ralph,
Yes, all batteries are always connected and all strings are connected at the
ends, with each string usually having a separate fuse of 100A to 250A,
depending on how much continuous current you normally draw, divided by the
nr of strings.
You may use multiple contactors and not connect the thick battery cables at
the ends when the car is not operated, but I would still like to see the
soft-linking of the ends of that side of the string, to be able to match the
batteries at the end.
You could disconnect all soft links with as many relays as batteries in one
string:
For 3 strings, you need 2 contacts in each relay, they make the connection
from the positive side of a battery in one string to the corresponding
battery's positive side in another string.
I assume that the neg side of the first battery in each string are all
connected together permanently.
I do not keep record of failures, I hope my memory serves me right as this
subject has been discussed before, there too several failing buddy-pairs
were mentioned, I know about Michael Bearden's Porsche.
Hope this helps,
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ralph Merwin
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 6:22 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Cost to drive a EV
Cor,
You bring up some interesting points. One aspect that I am uncomfortable
about when using buddy pairs is that I can't 'see' each battery's voltage.
But in theory this doesn't matter because the two batteries are now treated
as one.
In your description of 'soft-linking', are the two strings always connected
at the ends? Are the 'soft-links' thin wires from each positive and
negative terminal in a battery to the corresponding terminals on its mate,
or do you only connect positive terminals?
My pack layout keeps both batteries in any given pair in the same insulated
box, so they're likely close in temperature to begin with.
While charging, when one battery is drawing more current than its mate, it
might warm up some, but the voltage would try to rise with the SOC (in spite
of the negative temp coefficient). That would cause this battery to draw
less current and not warm up any more.
If there is a problem with one battery in a pair, the other battery in that
pair is likely to be destroyed as well. But the rest of the pack would be
intact. Even if one battery developed a shorted cell, the other battery
would discharge into it until they are at the same voltage.
You mention that "there is an unexpected high percentage with buddy-paired
batteries". I wasn't aware that there were more failures in buddy-paired
packs than other packs. I know of two successful buddy-paired vehicles (Al
Godfrey's 914 and John Wayland's Red Beastie). I also know of three
buddy-paired vehicles (one was my original conversion) that have had
short-lived packs, but these failures were due to either lack of battery
management and/or poor charging.
I'd like to learn more about the high rate of buddy-pair failures. Can you
post more information about these?
Ralph
Cor van de Water writes:
>
> Ralph,
>
> You describe the perfect world, where everything is in equilibrium and
> what is not will move there.
> Now consider that some technologies will drop in voltage when the
> battery heats up.
> This is the opposite of equilibrium:
> - if one battery happens to have a lower resistance or lower SOC then
> it gets more current
> - due to the higher current, it warms up more than the buddy pair and
> gets even more current
> - this can lead to a runaway situation, where one battery hogs all
> current (on charge as well
> as on discharge!) so there effectively is no buddy pairing, it is
> one effective battery,
> but the current limit and expected capacity are for the buddy pair,
> so not only does the
> good battery get hit with double current, it will also be run down
> to empty when you
> think that you are using 50% DOD.
>
> Now I am not even addressing faults like a short in one cell or a
> different temperature to start with and other failures that batteries
> can develop and which are potential fatal in typical un-fused buddy pairs.
> Let the evidence be clear that of the few EVs that ever
> self-destructed (fire), there is an unexpected high percentage with
buddy-paired batteries.
> One such occurrence was the Porsche Flambe' of Michael Bearden, who
> had his car parked outside his garage and was not charging it due to
> circumstances, normally he would have lost his garage with other EVs
> (Goggomobile 36Volts) and all his tools and equipment.
>
> One way that you can make safer buddy-pairs is by 'soft-linking' them.
> Build two series strings with heavy duty cable.
> Then use thin cable (preferably with simple automotive fuses) to wire
> the pairs of battery-connecting cable together, this will give the
> wanted buddy-pairing with voltage equalization but will avoid any high
> currents in case of malfunction of one of the buddy-pairs. Battery
> regulators should still be OK with only one per pair as typical
> currents through regulators are small. They should also tell when one
> battery develops a problem and the voltage gets too high or too low too
soon.
>
> Regards,
> Cor.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Ralph Merwin
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 6:46 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Cost to drive a EV
>
>
> Jody,
>
> >From what I've read, batteries in parallel like this work a bit
> >differently
> than what you describe. When the pair is being charged, the one at a
> lower state of charge will take more of the current. As its SOC
> increases and its voltage tries to increase, it takes less of the
> charge current. The voltage of the battery with a higher SOC cannot
> get significantly higher than its mate.
>
> Now the other battery takes more of the current until its SOC increases.
> They continue like this until fully charged.
>
> The reverse happens on discharge.
>
> I haven't actually measured the currents going thru a pair to verify this.
> Someday...
>
> Ralph
>
>
> Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G writes:
> >
> > Also, when the batteries charge and discharge since they are
> > chemically different and their internal resistance is not the same
> > they will react differently. One will always take a charge faster
> > and so it will cook while the other catches up. If the weaker
> > doesn't get the full charge before the charger cuts off it will go
> > deeper than the other or the stronger battery will charge it up and
> > equalize costing power. With regulators across the pair you will
> > still have the same problem. The regulator will not cut the current
> > off to the stronger battery so the weaker can get more charge.
> > Believe me - there will always be a weaker and a stronger battery in
> > a buddy pair. As the batteries age the difference will become
> > greater and eventually the buddy pair will kill both batteries. I
> > would really recommend separating the buddy pairs into strings of
> > series batteries that can be connected in parallel during use or
> > charging. That way your pack won't prematurely kill itself. I
> > would hate to see your batteries die a
> year or so early.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > On Behalf Of David Roden
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 0:26
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: Cost to drive a EV
> >
> > On 13 Feb 2007 at 20:50, Ralph Merwin wrote:
> >
> > > An
> > > islator is not required because both batteries are getting the
> > > same discharge and charge cycles.
> >
> > I'm not so sure. If a battery develops a shorted cell, its partner
> > will empty itself trying to charge it. I even had this happen with
> > two parallel 96v strings once.
> >
> >
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > EV List Administrator
> >
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> > webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Crystal and All,
EV's cost by the pound and air drag!! So to
be blunt converting a Sprinter is not a good idea.
And you shouldn't buy a new vehicle to start
with, especially a truck to tear it apart!! Use that money
istead for marterials and/or labor to do it right.
But it can be done in other ways though
mostly means you or someone are going to have to do some
work.
Easiest is convert an EV car and tow a
lightweight, aero trailer with a biodiesel or NG generator.
I own an A-Liner hard side folding trailer that would work
well as lightweight and low frontal area with good area for
solar panels though not as aero as you should have but would
work.
On your need to stand up is not really needed
but more a want. In boats we say you only need standing
headroom if you sleep standing up. Maybe check out some
boats for good interiors in small spaces.
A good aero trailer will actually improve the
aero of the tow vehicle many times because it cleans up the
flow going aft, a large source of vehicle drag. Stock cars,
bicycist use this all the time to cut fuel use or go faster.
Better would be an EV that is built from
scratch using say S10 chassis, electrical converted with a
custom very aero body on it. These are not that hard to do
and easily be worth it in the long run and will cut your EV
drive, running cost by 1/2 or more including a fairly long
range, especialy if you don't go standing headroom or just
can need it behind the rear axle where you can take the
floor down 12" or more or a pop top.
Best would be use a frontwheel drive and use a
custom low flat floor chassis behind, over it. One could
take an aero trailer and put the front wheel EV drivetrain
or even a car front half inculding driver, passenger seat in
it's front to save building a body. If using say a VW Rabbit
diesel front end and use an EV drive rear axle could work
well saving much work with unlimted range. I just mix
filtered Waste Veg Oil 75% to 25% diesel without any other
mods other than extra filters. In colder times more diesel
or kerosene is needed. Even diesel needs kero when it really
gets cold.
Or you can be like me, don't laugh as it's
very doable, and build your EV from plywood/epoxy to do it
fast, strong, aero and lightweight like we do racing boats
and aircraft. I also do composites the same way but that can
take longer to learn, harder to finish. Though building one
up from bending finished flat fiberglass panels would cut
time doing a composite version.
I'm eventually going to do an EV RV with a 50
mile range on batts with my generator being used for longer
stretches based somewhat on the Dymaxion car by Buckminister
Fuller or you may want to look up the Stout Scrarab for
inpiration.
But the theme here if you want to have a
successful EV RV is lightweight and aero or your costs will
soar, range tank.
If I were to do one myself though it would
only cost about $5k in materials!! But I'm good and been
building stuff for 35 yrs and very cheap, ah I mean
resourceful ;^D.
It can be done, you just need to find the
right path, an open mind You seem smart enough to do it. It
can be a vehicle you can keep the rest of your life so you
will never be without a home so can be worth the extra
upfront work easily.
Good luck,
Jerry Dycus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Don and All,
>From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[email protected]>
>Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 2:15 PM
>Subject: FreedomEV Competition - or just more hype?
>
>
>> http://www.flytheroad.com/
Neat unit but as far as competition, I'm not worried
;^D
I agree with it's methods, design as I was planning
on doing a narrow vehicle MOL like it so if sucessful saves
me from doing that. I own 2 Honda Gyro's that use the same
tilting principles and they are the best handling, braking
narrow MC's I've ever ridden but that also makes me wonder
just what Carver has patented. Ebfield also made one. At
least it's not as ugly as the Carver was.
It's a completely different market than the Freedom
EV and not anywhere near as safe and doesn't have side by
side seating which will probably doom it in the US for real
high mass production.
And they will have a very hard time building it for
that price. It will need better aero if they want the range
they say on batteries at that price if even then.
Jerry Dycus
>>
>>
>> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
While I haven't done an S-10, I recall that the actual
swap isn't the tough part; it's a question of whether
you also want to change the dash-- you've got
indicator LEDs for whatever gearing you're in. That's
the only thing I remember when this issue was last
kicked around...
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
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'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
So assuming money was no object, could you just build a vehicle from
scratch out of titanium or carbon fibre in order for it to be
lightweight enough to make a difference? Or will something
6'x15'x6' (WxLxH) still be too big to go anywhere faster than a snail?
On Feb 17, 2007, at 1:22 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: Jerry McIntire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: February 17, 2007 1:18:46 AM CST
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: At what cd (drag coef) and roof size for a van would
the drag of the vehicle be less than the electricity generating
rate of pv's on the roof?
I'm going to take an educated guess-- with a Grand Caravan covered
with PV, maybe 2-3 mph continuous. NO freeway speeds.
Take a look at the solar race vehicles, extremely light with lots
of PV. They can generate some decent speeds, but a minivan?!?
Forget drag, the weight of the van is the biggest factor.
Jerry
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In answer to the question of is there any way to mechanically apply...
How about doing the brakes like a semi truck. Spring applied, air
released, or in our case spring applied electormechanically released.
0% PWM Brakes are full on by spring
10% PWM brakes are 90% applied by spring 10% released by PWM
...
Now when there is applied power to the motor OR when regen energy is
available, the mechanical brakes are not applied. As you both lift the
throttle and apply the brakes when you slow down and the regen energy
disappates the springs increasingly let the mechanical brakes take over.
Would need some inteligent controller or every stop would end in a jerk
There are I to P transducers which is a fancy name for a variable
voltage servo valve to geive you an air pressure based on an electric
signal. So maybe useing air pressure may be a better way.
I have always wanted to make an EV brake booster. This is either a
multilayer, multitturn solenoid or a BLDC motor on a gear and rack set
up and a simple PIC micro which reads 2 switches mounted on the
application shaft with a very stiff spring between them. Take your foot
off the brake and the rear switch is made, press on the brake firmly and
it comes off the rear switch and applies the front switch
Front Switch rear switch PWM out
0 1 PWM=PWM -10 until it hits zero.
This drops the assistance to zero in under a second smoothly
0 0 PWM=PWM - .1 until it hits zero,
This slowly drifts of the brake when your are still appling the brake
pedal but are not pushing
hard. As the mechanism
pushes back it will hit the front switch and move forward.
1 0 PWM=PWM+5 Increases the
assistance until the booster starts to get ahead of your foot, then
drops into 0,0 mode
1 1 PWM=0 , Dash "Brake" light = 1
Call Service (Latches in this state until ignition cycled.)
* the constants here are for illustration and will need to be
experimentally discovered and may even be different depending on brakes
effectivness and vehicle weight.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just for the record, this is not the way air brakes work. Only the
emergency/parking brake is applied by a spring being held back by air. The
service brakes use air pressure to apply the brakes just like cars use
hydraulic fluid. In the event of an air loss so the service brakes are
useless (just like breaking a brake line in a car), the spring is released
and applies the emergency brakes. They are either full on or full off. The
spring brake can also be applied by hand during an emergency or for parking.
Dave
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 06:21:31 -0800
In answer to the question of is there any way to mechanically apply...
How about doing the brakes like a semi truck. Spring applied, air
released, or in our case spring applied electormechanically released.
0% PWM Brakes are full on by spring
10% PWM brakes are 90% applied by spring 10% released by PWM
...
_________________________________________________________________
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http://forms.nextag.com/goto.jsp?url=/serv/main/buyer/education.jsp?doSearch=n&tm=y&search=education_text_links_88_h288c&s=4079&p=5116
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--- Begin Message ---
Cor and Roland,
Thanks for the info. I just went out and checked the
motor. It has the markings A1, A2, D1, and D2 on the
connections.
Narrows down the possibilities a bit. I'm going to go
out there with a meter and check the resistance while
rotating the motor.
Thanks again!
Andrew
> > From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: Wiring up a Kostov...
> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:03:14 -0700
>
> Hello Andrew,
>
> Normally the four post are label S1 and S2 for the
> fields and A1 and A2 for
> the commentator.
>
> If they are label, than try connecting S2 to A1 and
> connecting 12 volts to
> S1 and to A2. If the motor rotates in the wrong
> direction than just connect
> the S2 to A2 which will reversed the rotation.
>
> If the terminals are not label, then connect a ohm
> meter to two of the
> terminals. If there is no resistance reading on the
> ohm meter, than keep
> changing the leads around until you read a
> resistance. You may be on the
> field windings or commentator windings.
>
> To find out if you are on the field or commentator
> windings, just rotate the
> motor shaft by hand, and it the resistance does not
> change, than you are on
> the field windings.
>
> Connect the ohm meter to the other two terminals,
> and if the resistance
> varies when rotating the armature, than you are on
> the commentator windings.
>
> Mark the commentator windings A1 and A2 and field
> windings S1 and S2. It
> does not make a difference which end of the field or
> commentator windings
> are mark at the motor terminals. You have to test
> out the connections for
> the correct rotation anyway.
>
>
> Roland
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Wiring up a Kostov...
> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:01:45 -0800
>
> The easy way is to look for markings or drawings of
> it.
> A1, A2 and F1, F2 are common for Armature and Field
> windings.
> If you can't find it then use a meter or a 12V lamp
> and battery to
> see which terminal is connected to which other one.
> Connect one Armature winding to one Field winding
> and use
> the other two to test it on a 12V battery.
> If it runs the wrong direction then swap either the
> Field
> or the Armature connections so it will run the other
> way.
> (If you swap both, it will still run the same
> direction,
> just like it does not help to swap the battery
> polarity)
>
> Success,
> Cor.
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On Feb 17, 2007, at 1:22 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
I think I agree with Peter - if you want to avoid burning fossil
fuels in your motor home, your best bet is to use biodiesel or
vegetable oil. Or pull it with oxen! The problems that arise from
these technologies look like they are easier to overcome than the
problems that arise from trying to build an electric RV.
On Feb 17, 2007, at 1:22 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
Almost everyone who comes here looking for answers to build what
they want
before doing any research are usually disappointed. The reality is
everyone on
this list is disappointed as well. Many though have taken it as a
challenge
to do something about it. You can keep your dreams but don't let
your dreams
stop you from the experience of driving and owning an electric
vehicle.
You know, it becomes extremely unnerving when people assume I've done
no research just because I have the audacity to ask questions that
some people on the list might already know the answer to. I spend
more time doing research than anybody else I've ever met; in fact,
that's pretty much what I do all day every day; I live for learning.
I spent many, many hours researching this topic before ever even
finding this list, but if people are expected to be experts before
joining a list like this then what exactly is the point of having a
list at all? There is just so much information to absorb in this
world, none of us could possibly ever memorize it all in a single
lifetime, let alone a few weeks of heavy research. I don't fit the
stereotype into which most people try to group me; I'm a brainy geek
trapped inside the body of a completely different demographic.
And people keep carrying on about my wanting to convert a
"motorhome" or an "RV" to electric, which although semantically
accurate from a certain perspective, isn't really a fair way to
describe what I'm trying to do.
I wanted to covert the shortest van I could possibly find, which is
barely longer than a Ranger or an S-10; it's not a bus. The shortest
sprinter is only around 118" long, which is less than 10'. I mean,
putting a full-size mattress inside takes up practically the whole
interior behind the front seats. That vehicle is microscopic compared
to these gas-guzzling death traps being driven around with only 1-2
people in them. I'm a big fan of miniaturization and convergence, but
if this mini-van is a giant, then what do you call a Hummer? Or one
of those mega buses used to tote musicians between gigs while on
tour? Those things must be practically mansions!
OK, so I'll be on my way. I'll start working toward solutions on my
own–probably biodiesel for the next couple years, then after that,
who knows. To those of you who presented solutions and advice, thanks
a bunch. Hopefully I can piece it all together into something
cohesive and suitable for my application; if not immediately, then in
a few years after lithium technology becomes affordable.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:54 AM 2/17/2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
OK, so I'll be on my way. I'll start working toward solutions on my
ownÂprobably biodiesel for the next couple years, then after that,
who knows. To those of you who presented solutions and advice, thanks
a bunch. Hopefully I can piece it all together into something
cohesive and suitable for my application; if not immediately, then in
a few years after lithium technology becomes affordable.
Don't let all these doom-sayers drive you away.
There is ALWAYS a way to get the job done, just
not always as efficient as you desire.
There seem to be a LOT of people on this list who
insist that you must drive a tiny econobox if you want to go EV.
I'm still planning on converting a large pickup
truck, as I actually want to be able to move some cargo.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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you CAN still build a good ev but you do have to put in the time and research
to succeed . this is not yet walking into a dealership and pointing to what you
want and paying the price and driving away .
HOWEVER YOU CAN STILL WIN
what they did with the t-zero was find a kit car that was light weight
replaced the ice with a good motor
here is where you start making comprises 1 ac system or 2 dc system next
what voltage and why ?
then what controller why what transmission if no then in wheel motor
($$$$) or direct drive ? if direct drive how do you shut the thing off in the
event of failure ? you are now engineering the whole thing
you are the design team the build team the sales person and the costumer
all rolled into 1 .
YOU CAN DO THIS YOU CAN WIN YOU CAN HAVE WHAT YOU WANT JUST DON'T QUIT find
the answers
do the math keep asking questions take reasonable risks but never compromise
on safety .
do not get discouraged . I am finally getting to build my own I have been
dreaming for 36 years to get here
I found a bradley gt2 body for 1200 the bought a vw frame then redid the
brake system I went with conventional wisdom on the brakes and converted to 4
wheel disc then found out that I may have chosen the wrong brakes . but I did
not compromise on safety .
this is the strength of this list
these guys have been there done that AND THEY ARE WILLING TO tell all so you
can get your dream they are willing to help where they can so you can get your
dream but you can not get discouraged you can not quit
I got my motor and controller on ebay for $500 with a battery charger thrown in
!!!! the controller panel has all the contactors relays etc already on it what
a find !!!!! yes it is old old technology but it is one of those conpromises
that I am talking about . I will have a ev this year complete and driveable
and safe . I have not yet settled on batteries but if compremise is needed
than so be it I will have my dream . and I can keep working on it till a get
to the finial goal . remember that the technology did not exist of 70+ miles
when I first dreamed of an electric car now the technology exist for 300+
miles for the same weight but the$$$$ do count NEVER STOP THE DREAM
GOOD LUCK GOD BLESSW DON'T QUIT
----- Original Message -----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 9:53 PM
Subject: Re: EV digest 6430
Yes, I looked at some photos; they're cute. And it would be nice to
have something a bit bigger without sacrificing performance, but I'll
be lucky at this point if I can even do a conversion at all, given
the astronomical prices I'm reading on this list. I say again, it's
just wrong that you have to be a millionaire to afford even a modest
conversion away from fossil fuels. It's an abomination that given our
current state of technology that we don't already have the entire
planet phased out of ICE vehicles; by now we were supposed to be
living like the Jetsons, remember? ;-)
When I joined this list, I was excited about doing a conversion
because I'd been reading about many conversions that had been done
for as little as $1500 and as much as $8000 depending on parts and
extra stuff like solar; but nowhere did I ever come across anything
close to the numbers I'm getting here.
On Feb 16, 2007, at 9:18 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
> The Ultravan is *taller* inside than the Sprinter, despite the
> lower overall height. This is because it has no frame; it is a
> monocoque, like an airplane or unibody car.
>
> Yes, it is pretty wide. It's a motorhome, after all; meant to live
> in more than to be driven. But did you look at a picture of one?
> They are probably the most streamlined motorhome ever built, with a
> Cd better than most cars.
>
> Again, this is just a curiosity; not a realistic choice.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ryan and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Lithium Technology, Innosys complete electric
car conversion
>Lee Hart wrote:
>
>> Can you say "Sunrise"? :-)
>>
>> It's an ultralight aerodynamic car that can carry half
>> its weight in batteries. With GM/Ovonic nimh batteries
>> from an EV1, it has gone over 400 miles on a charge. With
>lithium ions, it could go even farther!
>
>
>You definitely have something there. You have said item.
>Is said item marketable and desirable?
To ask that question means you just don't have much
of a clue on the EV market. As the premire EV so far still
unbeaten in range after 10+ yrs . It's marketability is
beyound question.
Is the price right?
Depends on which market. A finished one should sell
for well above $50k so almost any reasonable price for the
kit would be doable. Factory Five kits without motors, trans
go for $25k. A dead Sunrise with no batteries went for $25k
a couple yrs ago gives you an idea what a new one could go
for. A 5 yr old RAV4EV goes for $67k and only does 1/3 the
Sunrise's range.
> Is it affordable?
Depends on how much money you have. It's an EV that
can last many yrs with very low running costs, no rust so
even at $50k finished, it would be cheap compared to
anything else over 10+ yrs. It gets about 100wthrs/mile
which now equals about 230 mpg at the present gasoline costs
and betwen 150-400 mpg equivilent depending on the source of
electricity based on it's very well documented data.
> Can it be mass produced?
Again it depends on what you call mass production. In
the boat industry 10 units is considered mass production and
a success.
Is it going to be mass produced?
> Where and how and by who?
To be determind. Let him get going, make the molds
and a couple so he can get a handle on the actual costs
first.
These kind of composite cars are limited to about
2500/yr per factory but if demand goes up, just build more
factories ;^D But it's likely to remain very limited
production so those who want one should help Lee out now if
they have some spare money for such a great EV that puts all
others to shame.
>
>People will want to know how much it costs, what it will do
>for them, and how is it better then what they currently
>have.
Since it is in a class all to itself, you can't
compare it. Where else are you going to buy a proven all
composite 350+ mile range freeway EV sedan? But there are
plenty of people who would love one. I raised the money to
buy the body/chassis parts on E bay in just 2 days shows
demand, money is there.
The only other all composite cars are the most
expensive Ferrari and Mclaren(sp?) costing over $400k each.
>
>You have said item and you want X amount of money from me
>from it. First I have to desire it. I have to crave it. I
>have to want to spend and allocate X amount of my income
>towards to. What is the appeal? What is the fun factor?
>Is this purely an economical decision? Will I save X
>amount of dollars per year commuting to work in your
>vehicle instead of my current vehicle and will the up front
>purchase price be amortized over X amount of years?
>
>Those are the cold hard questions being faced by every
>single form of transportation on offer today. Why a person
>wants and buys a Honda or Toyota instead of anything else?
>The eternal question. Some people only drive pickup
>trucks.
As he only needs to build, sell 100 to make it
wildly sucessful, there are thousands who would put that up.
On the Freedom EV done basicly the same way i'll be
profitable on the 3rd sale at $13k. The Sunrise can do the
same.
>
>What market will this vehicle go after and have you
>identified this market? Will these vehicles be built to
>order and will you personally be hand building each one?
>One thing people don't like is having to wait for something
>they just paid big money for. I see the complaints and
>dissatisfaction all the time with those Cobra kit cars. If
>someone buys, they will want it right there and then.
>
>The Sunrise will have to be a more economical choice to
>commute in vs's people's existing Honda or Toyota they
>currently drive. Or are you going after a different
>market?
Of course!! Why would anyone compete directly with
big auto? We are just here to rub Detroit's nose in it while
making some cash at the same time to force them to make EV's
for everybody.
>
>Building the car is relatively easy compared to marketing
>it and being able to sell it at a low price point.
Again you have no idea on this project.
>
>One model at one price will be a love it or hate it affair.
>
>Several configurations of the same vehicle will potentially
>appeal to everyone.
That's a fools game and why Detroit is losing. Much
better is specialty markets, more profit, little
competition.
>
>The bare bones economical model for those buying one based
>purely on saving money from not having to buy gasoline to
>fuel it.
>
>The luxury model for those who must have a really nice
>interior.
>
>The performance model.
He's supplying the body/chassis, plans, so everyone
can make their own version. If you want real mass
production, do it yourself. I'll, Lee will stick to more
practical things like getting EV production started.
If 100 EVers sent him $100/month for a yr would
make it go much faster at a lower cost if EVers really want
EV's into production, they should. Can you think of a better
person, EV, to invest in?
Jerry Dycus
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Ebfield
Are you sure this is spelled correctly?
I couldn't find anything close on google (or google
images).
Thanks,
Rod
--- jerryd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Don and All,
>
>
> >From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 2:15 PM
> >Subject: FreedomEV Competition - or just more hype?
> >
> >
> >> http://www.flytheroad.com/
>
> Neat unit but as far as competition, I'm not
> worried
> ;^D
> I agree with it's methods, design as I was
> planning
> on doing a narrow vehicle MOL like it so if
> sucessful saves
> me from doing that. I own 2 Honda Gyro's that use
> the same
> tilting principles and they are the best handling,
> braking
> narrow MC's I've ever ridden but that also makes me
> wonder
> just what Carver has patented. Ebfield also made
> one. At
> least it's not as ugly as the Carver was.
> It's a completely different market than the
> Freedom
> EV and not anywhere near as safe and doesn't have
> side by
> side seating which will probably doom it in the US
> for real
> high mass production.
> And they will have a very hard time building
> it for
> that price. It will need better aero if they want
> the range
> they say on batteries at that price if even then.
>
> Jerry Dycus
> >>
> >>
> >> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
> >>
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
http://www.greenseal.org/resources/reports/CGR_tire_rollingresistance.pdf
Here is the list of 14,15 & 16 inch tires available as of two years ago.
Prices are off. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Grigg. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 7:29 AM
Subject: RE: Wide vs Skinny Tires LRR
> I'm interested in this formula as well. I have fairly large tires
> 275/60/15 - about 10 inches wide and I'm thinking about changing them to
> a narrower tire. Would my money be well spent here?
>
> John Grigg
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/723
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Mark E. Hanson
> Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 5:09 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Wide vs Skinny Tires LRR
>
> Hi,
>
> Is there a formulae for tire width vs LRR? I need to buy new tires
> for my electric Porsche and there are P155, P165 and P195 options. I
> assume that the skinnier tire always wins in LRR but by what measureable
> percentage? Is there measureable data or a formulae for width, are we
> talking about 5% range difference (or MPG) or is it a fraction of a
> percent? When wider tires are used there's obviously a larger contact
> patch area but the pressure to the road per square inch is decreased so
> it may not be a huge percentage.
>
> Best Regards,
> Mark
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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> Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.
>
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http://www.greenseal.org/resources/reports/CGR_tire_rollingresistance.pdf
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--- Begin Message ---
Right but has the EAA ever tried to enter into
discussions with Chevron over releasing the patent
rights?
Mark
--- Robert Lemke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Because Chevron Oil now owns the patent rights for
> NiMH batteries of the size of 10 a/hr and larger.
>
> Bob
>
> Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Why can't the EAA hire some fundraiser(s), rake in
> the
> cash, initialize an EV-size NIMH production
> facility,
> and sell to members at an affordable price? How hard
> can it be?
>
> Mark
>
>
> --- Lee Hart wrote:
>
> > Ian Hooper wrote:
> > > Interesting about the Cobasys/Chevron
> > relationship, why am I not
> > > surprised!?
> > >
> > > There are a few Chinese manufacturers of large
> > capacity NiMHs, e.g
> > > http://nthaiyang.en.alibaba.com/. They are
> pretty
> > expensive though, I
> > > got quoted US$153ea for 1.2V, 80Ah (600A peak
> > discharge) cells, so it's
> > > heading towards $20K for a ~10kWh pack! Ouch.
> > >
> > > The option I'm currently looking at are Sub-Cs,
> > due to their high
> > > discharge rate (>10C). Manufacturer direct,
> > they're about US$1.50 each
> > > for 1.2v 3.5Ah, I'll need about 2500 of them for
> > 10kWh. So twice the
> > > price of the best lead acid, but half the weight
> > and hopefully longer
> > > cycle life. Using that many individual cells
> seems
> > silly, but it has
> > > been done before, e.g the Tesla Roadster, or
> White
> > Lightning
> >
> > Lots of people are trying to use hundreds to
> > thousands of small cells
> > to make an EV sized battery pack. There are lots
> of
> > problems! Frankly,
> > I'm pessimistic -- NO ONE has any long-term
> > experience yet. I think it
> > works in the short term, but will prove
> impractical
> > in the long run (too
> > expensive, too unreliable). But, time will tell!
> > --
> > Ring the bells that still can ring
> > Forget the perfect offering
> > There is a crack in everything
> > That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> > leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
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