EV Digest 6485
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Tango lane splitting
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Car and Driver pulls through for Plasma Boy!
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Should I buy 2 more batteries?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: PFC 20 thermal compensation
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Contactor controller control?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Should I buy 2 more batteries?
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Tango lane splitting
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Should I buy 2 more batteries?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Lane splitting is specifically (by name) allowed in California, as per
the DMV website: http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/answers.html
The CA motorcycle operators handbook also mentions this.
I have several thousands of miles of motorcycling experience in
California, and I've split lanes with CHP and municipal police either
directly in front of or behind me; they were also splitting the lane.
By splitting, I mean having your tires ON the line.
Also, the link you post mentions the legality of lane splitting in
California.
In any case, lane splitting isn't recommended on medium to large bikes;
the mirrors stick out too far. I wouldn't try it with a Tango, as I
couldn't twitch my handlebars or lean the bike (w/o turning) to miss
someone's mirror.
James Allgood wrote:
Lane splitting is illegal in all 50 states, so Tango cannot "split"
lanes, ie. straddle the lane boundry, anywhere in the US, just like
motorcycles. You will be cited for unsafe lane change or straddling if
the cop can catch you. It should be able to lane share, but only if it
stays within one lane, and only changes lanes every 100ft, just like a
motorcycle. For more than 7 years, every day, rain or shine, I split
and share lanes and can tell you with two wheels I can stay legal
about 80-90% of the time. With 4 wheels it would be nearly impossible
not to straddle. Motorcycles are allowed to drive abreast in 42
states, but only California has no law prohibiting motorcycles to
share a lane with a car. I am a big proponent of lanesharing and the
positive effect on reducing congestion, but from what I have seen of
the width I would not share lanes in the Tango. But I would love to
watch one try. Just keep an eye on your six and let faster splitters
go by.
Take a look what motorcyclist have to say about this very topic:
http://bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=186134
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
About the magazine article, I wrote:
I'll be making a last hour phone call to the magazine tomorrow, to see
if they'll send me some sort of snippet from the article, or perhaps
one of the many color photos from it, that I can reproduce for a large
sized stand-up for the show this weekend.
I can't say enough good words about everyone I've been in contact with
at Car and Driver. I followed through and called the editors up this
morning and made my plea to get 'something' about the article to put on
display at this weekend's Portland Roadster Show. Tonight after
returning home from a l-o-n-g work day, I opened my email and found a
stunning hi rez photo with the official 'Car and Driver' red, white, and
blue logo on it, of Tim in White Zombie at PIR absolutely roasting the
hides! I like to think I take pretty damn good digital photos, but after
seeing what photographer Morgan Segal captured, well, I now realize what
a really good photographer can do! I don't have confirmation that this
photo made it to the final cut for the article, but I bet it did. The
photo is clear enough that you can see Tim's focused look through his
helmet opening, as if he's ready to kill!
Looks like we'll have a pretty fun display for folks to see this weekend.
See Ya........John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff,
Adding new batteries to an aging pack will only work if you are also adding
regulators, otherwise you are setting the whole pack up to get out of
balance again real soon.
Do you have zener regs on them already? That is the minimum required to
survive different aged batteries and keep them together.
BUT - only add new batts if you have tested the remaining batteries to have
good capacity, otherwise you better buy an entire new pack.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 6:47 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Should I buy 2 more batteries?
Here is the scenario. When thanksgiving arrived and it turned cold my range
dropped dramatically. Couldn't even make it to work and back.
(about 5kwh)
24orbitals at 34ah 1hr rate * .8 should be 7.8kwh so I am useing 50% per
day.
I though it was just the cold, but as I did some testing 4 batteries didn't
look so good and 2 were obvious. So I bought a new battery and swapped the
other with the aux battery as it was the same type, newer and has seen very
light duty. This was an improvement but yesterday and today I commuted to
work.
I am checking these voltages immediately after the commute.
The new battery, which I am useing as a capacity guage was 12.3V both
days.
The old Aux battery and all the others except #8 and #9 were 12.1+/- .1V
#8 and #9 are at 11.1 and 11.2 :-(
I am interpreting this as most my batteries are in the 40-50% SOC range
(since this is an off-throttle voltage and will rise a little if i waited) I
am interpreting #8 and #9 to be at 0%!
The goal is just to commute the 14ish miles a day.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Floodeds are not different from other lead acid chemistries in the principle
of changing voltage with temp.
The absolute values vary a little with the different battery types (even
between brands of the same type) but the temp compensation is universal.
Colder = higher charge voltage.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 6:29 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: PFC 20 thermal compensation
I think I asked this before but couldn't put my hands on the answer.
What do I need to do, or do I do nothing, to the charger settings for
winter?
Are the regs thermally compensated? I heard that in the winter we are
suppose to turn up the charging voltage, but that was always mentioned in
regards to floodies.
setup: 24 orbitals with regs on PFC20.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris, I'm going to have to side with GW and Jim on this one. I also noticed
that you didn't mention my Mazda which was doing 11 flat 8 years ago and
blowing the doors off the quickest production car in the world at the time.
Even the 2000 Dodge Viper Hennessy Venom with it's 800 horsepower and price
tag of over a quarter of a million dollars could only beat it by 3/10th of a
second. But hey this was all a very long time ago and so old school. Chris.
I think you need to spend more time at the track and find out just how much
money these gas racers really dump into their cars. I built my car in my
yard because my shop at the time was an 8 by 10 foot shed and would only
hold my tool boxes and my compressor. You can talk to Rudman and Damon from
Alltrax about that. They were there and helped work on the car as well as a
good friend who flew in from New Zealand, Justin Southam, just to help out.
Yes I was able to get sponsored batteries and I did borrow several
controllers. You just do what you can to get by. It isn't about the money at
all. It is about trying new ideas, about innovations. These cars that are
out there changing perceptions are not the big buck race cars you imagine.
In fact that is exactly what the whole point is, to change peoples
perceptions on electric cars. When the sport eventually gets popular you
will see the big bucks people come in and the times will drop by incredible
amounts. We aren't waiting for the batteries any more. We are just waiting
until we can afford them :-)
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
Hey Chris, all
I think EVeryone would have to concede that the best
EV out there can't take down the best gasser (yet)lol.
I tend to side with GW on this one though. More often
than not WZ wins it's runs against average track
racers. Add to that the fact of when WZ ran it's
first bracket race, the other racers were telling Tim
he was in the wrong lane because he was in the big dog
lane. Zombie was the slowest big dog but big enough
bite, hehe.
Maybe you weren't there when Tim made a little boy cry
when Tim ate up the boys uncle in a mach1 (plasma boy
can confirm this)just smoked him. Another time that
sticks out for me was at the truck stop after the
Hooter girl show and shine 8^o. One of the guys had a
low 11 sec car, but he walked away from Tim's ride
with utter respect. I also believe that for
KillaCycle to attend an "all Harley" race and run with
the boys at least proves EV's can run with the pack
(no pun intended).
As far as costs go I'm sure that their are ICE racers
throwing equal bucks on their machines. Waylands got
a lot of things sponsored but John's a good stewert of
that sponsorship, well except for that sex scandal,
drug bust, petty B&E, anyway bad example, lets take
Bill. Even with his A123's I bet he's in ballpark of
what others are spending. If nothing else looking at
my new HotRod magazine I see a really good write up on
Bills bike 8^)
I'm actually new to the whole race thing really, but
ol Wayland's got me hooked. I think Wayland said it
best after Ted West's run... "Ted West just ran a 12.3
at 103 MPH in a battey powered car, Take that gasoline
people"! I have it on tape 8^) I will admit I may be
a little bias on my oppinion 8^)
Had fun
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- Chris Tromley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
GWMobile wrote:
> The day the majority of hotrodders realize an
electric vehicle can kick
> their $#% is the day that electric vehicles will
start to really take
> off.
It's good to be up to date on the list for the first
time in many
months and be able to contribute again.
The sentiment above is one I had myself when I was
new to EVs, even
though I have some experience at a pretty high level
of professional
(ICE) racing. It's easy to get caught up in the
excitement of showing
the world how EVs really are viable. But let's not
go too far.
Beating an ICE with a comparable EV is very hard, if
not impossible
(so far). Of course "comparable" is very difficult
to define.
The top guns in the EV racing world are John
Wayland's White Zombie,
Bill Dube's Killacycle and Dennis Berube's Current
Eliminator. I
don't know much about rail dragsters, so better not
to comment on
Dennis' amazing achievements.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Answered last year Aug 29, see the copy from the archives below Randii's
question.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Randy Burleson
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 6:21 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Contactor controller control?
> Well, there is the tried-and-true drum controller as used (perfected?)
> in turn of the century electrics.
I need training wheels on this. I'm guessing you mean turn of the LAST
century. :p
Regardless, can you explain? Nothing on Google jumped easily to hand...
Randii (enamored of simple solutions)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Harris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Building a controller yourself
> The 1912 Detroit uses a large drum with heavy copper contacts and carbon
> brushes. As the drum is rotated by the throttle lever (not peddle) it
> changes the battery configuration. It's worked for 94 years and counting.
>
> Lawrence
>
> Mike Chancey wrote:
> > How did the early electric cars handle the controller issue? I know
> > they used voltage switching, series, parallel and such, but since the
> > didn't use actual solenoid type contactors, how did they work?
> > Sliding contacts or some such? Could such a thing be built at home
> > today? How do you prevent arcing?
> >
> > Thanks,
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
wow, you really must excuse me for saying, but for all the negatives I
hear about the NiMH battery solution I'm working on, if replacing an
entire lead pack is the answer to having some batteries go bad after a
while,
the "cheap" lead acid pack initial cost is really not cheap at all.
The large-number-of-small-cells that are paralleled and can be replaced
in relatively small units looks even better.
Jack
Cor van de Water wrote:
Jeff,
Adding new batteries to an aging pack will only work if you are also adding
regulators, otherwise you are setting the whole pack up to get out of
balance again real soon.
Do you have zener regs on them already? That is the minimum required to
survive different aged batteries and keep them together.
BUT - only add new batts if you have tested the remaining batteries to have
good capacity, otherwise you better buy an entire new pack.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 6:47 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Should I buy 2 more batteries?
Here is the scenario. When thanksgiving arrived and it turned cold my range
dropped dramatically. Couldn't even make it to work and back.
(about 5kwh)
24orbitals at 34ah 1hr rate * .8 should be 7.8kwh so I am useing 50% per
day.
I though it was just the cold, but as I did some testing 4 batteries didn't
look so good and 2 were obvious. So I bought a new battery and swapped the
other with the aux battery as it was the same type, newer and has seen very
light duty. This was an improvement but yesterday and today I commuted to
work.
I am checking these voltages immediately after the commute.
The new battery, which I am useing as a capacity guage was 12.3V both
days.
The old Aux battery and all the others except #8 and #9 were 12.1+/- .1V
#8 and #9 are at 11.1 and 11.2 :-(
I am interpreting this as most my batteries are in the 40-50% SOC range
(since this is an off-throttle voltage and will rise a little if i waited) I
am interpreting #8 and #9 to be at 0%!
The goal is just to commute the 14ish miles a day.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At the All Harley Drag Racing Association meets we go to with the
KillaCycle, we are faster than 2/3 of all the bikes that compete.
Only very few bikes (of any brand or type) running pump gasoline are
going faster than we are.
Generally, you have to modify even the fastest stock bikes to get
into the 9's. They typically extend the swing arm, run a slick, and
change the rear sprocket (at a minimum.) A 100% stock bike has a very
tough time getting into the 9's. You just can't hold the front end
down with the stock swing arm.
You also have to keep in mind that the gas guys have been drag racing
for over 50 years. Electrics have been drag racing for less than 20 years.
In a bracket race, I actually have had someone say, "Oh crap, they
paired me up against the electric."
Bill Dube'
At 07:29 PM 2/27/2007, you wrote:
GWMobile wrote:
The day the majority of hotrodders realize an electric vehicle can kick
their $#% is the day that electric vehicles will start to really take
off.
It's good to be up to date on the list for the first time in many
months and be able to contribute again.
The sentiment above is one I had myself when I was new to EVs, even
though I have some experience at a pretty high level of professional
(ICE) racing. It's easy to get caught up in the excitement of showing
the world how EVs really are viable. But let's not go too far.
Beating an ICE with a comparable EV is very hard, if not impossible
(so far). Of course "comparable" is very difficult to define.
The top guns in the EV racing world are John Wayland's White Zombie,
Bill Dube's Killacycle and Dennis Berube's Current Eliminator. I
don't know much about rail dragsters, so better not to comment on
Dennis' amazing achievements.
John has poured his heart and soul into the Zombie and it shows. I
have no doubt he will hit 11's this year. But step back a minute.
How much re-engineering of that car has he done? How can you really
compare it to an ICE drag car? Imagine John had *not* been an EVer,
and instead simply dropped a crate V-6 into his little Datsun years
ago. Isn't his current EV a bit more elaborate than a typical engine
swap? What if he then spent all that time developing a V-6 Zombie -
what would he be running now? Low 10's? High 9's? And probably for
far less money.
The performance differential gets even more stunning with motorcycles.
For quite a while Bill's Killacycle, the meanest, baddest, full-gonzo
electric motorcycle on the planet, was running 9.8 at 150 mph. About
the same as a bone stock Suzuki GSXR 1000 (9.77 at 148.7 per
Motorcyclist magazine).
If you really want to showcase the difference between EV and ICE, you
need to put them on an even playing field. So let's tweak the
road-racing-oriented Suzuki a bit for the drag strip. We'll give it a
solid rear frame wrapped around a huge wrinkle-wall slick, lower it a
few inches, add some wheelie bars and optimize the gearing, just like
the Killacycle. Now you're crowding (or beating) Bill's new record of
8.76.
Notice we haven't changed the engine at all. It still has its smooth
idle, whisper quiet exhaust, original air box, stock cam timing and
fuel injection map. Once you get into engine mods you can pull *way*
over 200 hp out of a GSXR. That's not a typo. (Stock, it makes 160
hp.) Do the math.
The point is that head-to-head comparisons with ICE vehicles is not
the point. By all means be enthusiastic about the future of EVs.
Support the racers that do so much to advance the breed, because
they're doing a fabulous job. Do not get carried away. There have
been too many disappointments, over-hyped claims and broken promises
about EVs in the past.
Things really *are* looking up these days. We don't need to inflate
our abilities anymore. Maybe we can't beat the ICEs heads up, but
this is a type of racing that is in its infancy. The message is the
incredible progress we're making. And that viability on the track
means viability on the road.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I object to lane splitting because
1. It puts me at risk of an accident or it puts my car at risk of being
damaged and the motorcyclist may drive on or blame me. Someone else
doesnot have the right to you me in such danger or circumstance anymore
than I have the right to make you stand on the edge of a buildings
roof.
2. It is a result of someone who feels they can jump the line.
Impatience, rudeness, superiority, uncivilized behavior, flauting the
law, being an $#%hole call it what you will but lane splitting is all
about the motorcyclists putting his desires ahead of others.
On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 9:14 pm, john fisher wrote:
Me too. My wife hates it from the car's POV, I used to do it all the
time. Car drivers also don't realize the level of contempt that
motorcyclists have for their driving skills. That said, the current
craze for stunting is giving everybody on two wheels a bad name. ditto
loud pipes. I do think the use of sportbikes' amazing acceleration
regularly startles drivers. Riders should be careful, riding among cars
is already like bicycling in a buffalo herd, its not wise to stampede
them.
John Fisher
Steve Condie wrote:
The emotional response people have to lane splitting interests me. My
wife feels the same way, and I struggle to understand why. I think
it's a response to being startled. Ironically, if lane splitting were
more common don't think it would arouse the kinds of negative
responses it does now, because people wouldn't be surprised by having
a motorcycle slip by, whereas now it's a combination of a fast, noisy
object suddenly appearing where you don't expect it - and a certain
amount of jealousy caused by the fact that you're stuck there in
traffic and they're not.
Seriously - lane splitting isn't going to cause the downfall of Life
As We Know It.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
oh please, racing is always about the money and the ego, it is
neccessary but not sufficient to have both to win.
The exceptions just prove the rule.
I wondered early on the list "are EV's just a rich man's hobby?"
Well racing them certainly is.
That EV's can go fast (for a short time) was never in doubt, ask any R/C
racer.
But let's get a reality check, how many times have I read on the list
telling people to coast to stops in their ev's, but try not to piss off
too many people doing it, going 55 when everyone else is going 70, take
off the EV sticker on the car so you don't get EVs a bad rep for being
slow, etc, etc.
If you want to change perceptions, build EVs that actually solve the
real world problems of range, maintaince, charging, conversion cost and
effort, etc, etc.
jack
Roderick Wilde wrote:
Chris, I'm going to have to side with GW and Jim on this one. I also
noticed that you didn't mention my Mazda which was doing 11 flat 8 years
ago and blowing the doors off the quickest production car in the world
at the time. Even the 2000 Dodge Viper Hennessy Venom with it's 800
horsepower and price tag of over a quarter of a million dollars could
only beat it by 3/10th of a second. But hey this was all a very long
time ago and so old school. Chris. I think you need to spend more time
at the track and find out just how much money these gas racers really
dump into their cars. I built my car in my yard because my shop at the
time was an 8 by 10 foot shed and would only hold my tool boxes and my
compressor. You can talk to Rudman and Damon from Alltrax about that.
They were there and helped work on the car as well as a good friend who
flew in from New Zealand, Justin Southam, just to help out. Yes I was
able to get sponsored batteries and I did borrow several controllers.
You just do what you can to get by. It isn't about the money at all. It
is about trying new ideas, about innovations. These cars that are out
there changing perceptions are not the big buck race cars you imagine.
In fact that is exactly what the whole point is, to change peoples
perceptions on electric cars. When the sport eventually gets popular you
will see the big bucks people come in and the times will drop by
incredible amounts. We aren't waiting for the batteries any more. We are
just waiting until we can afford them :-)
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Husted"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
Hey Chris, all
I think EVeryone would have to concede that the best
EV out there can't take down the best gasser (yet)lol.
I tend to side with GW on this one though. More often
than not WZ wins it's runs against average track
racers. Add to that the fact of when WZ ran it's
first bracket race, the other racers were telling Tim
he was in the wrong lane because he was in the big dog
lane. Zombie was the slowest big dog but big enough
bite, hehe.
Maybe you weren't there when Tim made a little boy cry
when Tim ate up the boys uncle in a mach1 (plasma boy
can confirm this)just smoked him. Another time that
sticks out for me was at the truck stop after the
Hooter girl show and shine 8^o. One of the guys had a
low 11 sec car, but he walked away from Tim's ride
with utter respect. I also believe that for
KillaCycle to attend an "all Harley" race and run with
the boys at least proves EV's can run with the pack
(no pun intended).
As far as costs go I'm sure that their are ICE racers
throwing equal bucks on their machines. Waylands got
a lot of things sponsored but John's a good stewert of
that sponsorship, well except for that sex scandal,
drug bust, petty B&E, anyway bad example, lets take
Bill. Even with his A123's I bet he's in ballpark of
what others are spending. If nothing else looking at
my new HotRod magazine I see a really good write up on
Bills bike 8^)
I'm actually new to the whole race thing really, but
ol Wayland's got me hooked. I think Wayland said it
best after Ted West's run... "Ted West just ran a 12.3
at 103 MPH in a battey powered car, Take that gasoline
people"! I have it on tape 8^) I will admit I may be
a little bias on my oppinion 8^)
Had fun
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- Chris Tromley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
GWMobile wrote:
> The day the majority of hotrodders realize an
electric vehicle can kick
> their $#% is the day that electric vehicles will
start to really take
> off.
It's good to be up to date on the list for the first
time in many
months and be able to contribute again.
The sentiment above is one I had myself when I was
new to EVs, even
though I have some experience at a pretty high level
of professional
(ICE) racing. It's easy to get caught up in the
excitement of showing
the world how EVs really are viable. But let's not
go too far.
Beating an ICE with a comparable EV is very hard, if
not impossible
(so far). Of course "comparable" is very difficult
to define.
The top guns in the EV racing world are John
Wayland's White Zombie,
Bill Dube's Killacycle and Dennis Berube's Current
Eliminator. I
don't know much about rail dragsters, so better not
to comment on
Dennis' amazing achievements.
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--- Begin Message ---
Jack,
I am not sure that you actually read my message.
You can replace bad lead-acid batteries (I did it myself)
but you need to know the rest is OK.
Adding new batteries to a dead pack is not going to do anybody any good,
so assuming that the majority of his batts are OK, he will only need to
replace the stinkers.
But if he measures the rest and every battery is marginal or worse,
then his pack is dead and better replaced now than buying one or two
batteries every month until the whole pack is replaced anyway.
(Buying a bulk has better price than single retail units)
When the batts are not old, then replacing the stinkers should do the trick.
Since the absence of a BMS can cause unbalanced, reversed and hurt
batteries,
it was my suggestion to add at least zener regs to make sure his pack stays
in balance, so he can actually get the 400 give or take full cycles.
Without some sort of BMS, the lead-acid usually gets unbalanced after
about 100 cycles, lots of people murder their pack around 5,000 miles.
Live and learn.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jack Murray
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 10:25 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Should I buy 2 more batteries?
wow, you really must excuse me for saying, but for all the negatives I hear
about the NiMH battery solution I'm working on, if replacing an entire lead
pack is the answer to having some batteries go bad after a while, the
"cheap" lead acid pack initial cost is really not cheap at all.
The large-number-of-small-cells that are paralleled and can be replaced in
relatively small units looks even better.
Jack
Cor van de Water wrote:
> Jeff,
>
> Adding new batteries to an aging pack will only work if you are also
> adding regulators, otherwise you are setting the whole pack up to get
> out of balance again real soon.
> Do you have zener regs on them already? That is the minimum required
> to survive different aged batteries and keep them together.
>
> BUT - only add new batts if you have tested the remaining batteries to
> have good capacity, otherwise you better buy an entire new pack.
>
> Success,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 6:47 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Should I buy 2 more batteries?
>
> Here is the scenario. When thanksgiving arrived and it turned cold my
> range dropped dramatically. Couldn't even make it to work and back.
> (about 5kwh)
>
> 24orbitals at 34ah 1hr rate * .8 should be 7.8kwh so I am useing 50%
> per day.
>
> I though it was just the cold, but as I did some testing 4 batteries
> didn't look so good and 2 were obvious. So I bought a new battery and
> swapped the other with the aux battery as it was the same type, newer
> and has seen very light duty. This was an improvement but yesterday
> and today I commuted to work.
>
> I am checking these voltages immediately after the commute.
>
> The new battery, which I am useing as a capacity guage was 12.3V
> both days.
> The old Aux battery and all the others except #8 and #9 were
> 12.1+/- .1V
>
> #8 and #9 are at 11.1 and 11.2 :-(
>
> I am interpreting this as most my batteries are in the 40-50% SOC
> range (since this is an off-throttle voltage and will rise a little if
> i waited) I am interpreting #8 and #9 to be at 0%!
>
> The goal is just to commute the 14ish miles a day.
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm sure you'll get a lot of feedback on this one. Let me start it
off. (Disclaimer: I am not a racer of either variety of vehicle.)
On Feb 27, 2007, at 7:29 PM, Chris Tromley wrote:
Beating an ICE with a comparable EV is very hard, if not impossible
(so far).
Beating an ICE with an EV seems to be pretty straightforward when
you're bracket racing. Perhaps this (if true) is because EVs are
subject to fewer variables that impact their performance, making them
easier to predict.
Of course "comparable" is very difficult to define.
I think this is the problem in a nutshell. You say that EVs can't beat
comparable ICEs. I believe that they can and will, given a fair
definition of "comparable".
As far as heads-up racing, I would be interested to see how various
types of "comparable" cars would do against each other. Who would you
pick as the winner in the following races?
1) ICE vs. EV of equal hp
2) ICE vs. EV of equal timeslip (duh)
3) ICE vs. EV of equal cost
4) ICE vs. EV of equal weight
5) ICE vs. EV that puts out the same amount of noise
6) ICE vs. EV that puts out the same amount of C02
7) ICE vs. EV that have the same number of Kwhrs on board
8) Insert your own comparison category here
I'm not sure about 3) (John has written about owners of gasser racers
being shocked at how little he has spent on White Zombie to achieve his
timeslips), and I'm pretty sure that EV energy density compared to
gasoline would handicap the EV in 4) and 7). But otherwise, it looks
like the advantage goes to the EV. Theoretically, anyway, since we
don't have a lot of EVs that compare to the fastest ICE vehicles.
Did I miss something?
Imagine John had *not* been an EVer,
and instead simply dropped a crate V-6 into his little Datsun years
ago. Isn't his current EV a bit more elaborate than a typical engine
swap?
From my point of view, his (any) EV is quite a bit less elaborate than
any ICE. Just compare the number of moving parts.
Or compare the number of systems he removed vs. the number of systems
he put in. The White Zombie no longer has a transmission, exhaust
system, lubricant pumping system, air intake, and probably others I
haven't thought of. He swapped a gas engine for an electric motor, and
a gas tank for a battery pack, and a fuel metering system (carb/fuel
injection system) for a Zilla.
What do you mean by "elaborate"? Are you talking about the number of
changes to a stock ICE required to make it go fast, as in your Suzuki
motorcycle example? That's not a fair comparison! For one thing,
there aren't any stock EVs to speak of! If you're comparing the race
car to the stock version, you have to start with a "stock" EV. These
days, that would most likely be an EV conversion.
Let's compare White Zombie to a comparable daily driver EV conversion.
How many changes did John need to go from Blue Meanie to White Zombie?
Would it be comparable to dropping a V6 into a piston-powered Datsun
1200? I don't know; does anyone else? (John Wayland probably does.)
Pull the tranny, swap the ADC 9incher for the Siamese 8, beef up the
driveline, put in a lighter pack.
The point is that head-to-head comparisons with ICE vehicles is not
the point.
I don't see why not. It depends on the categories you're comparing.
ICE racing contains many categories, most of which aren't compared to
each other. (Is this correct? I wouldn't expect funny cars to be
compared to rail dragsters to pro stockers.) Yet head-to-head
comparisons still happen, inside the compatible categories.
Once we get enough EV racers out there to start to figure out how to
fairly compare them to ICE racers, I think we'll see a lot more
embarrassed ICE racers.
It looks like we come to the same basic conclusion - I just didn't
agree with the way you got there :)
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://www.gdunge.com/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack,
Not sure what you see as the problem, I certainly do not see the awareness
of the difference in energy consumption between doing 55 and 70 as a
problem. That EVs are so efficient that you can clearly see the difference,
while a gasser is so inefficient that the difference is hardly noticeable,
only some small change in the margin of the enormous inefficiency, is only a
benefit of the EV to me.
So, my choice to drive efficiently and maximize my range and reduce the
number of kWh that I need to buy at night is not a problem for me, so I need
no solution.
(And yes, I will stay in the right lane when going slow and if I go in the
carpool lane I will speed up to at least 65 where that is the limit)
What do you see as problem?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jack Murray
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 10:44 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver confirmed)
oh please, racing is always about the money and the ego, it is neccessary
but not sufficient to have both to win.
The exceptions just prove the rule.
I wondered early on the list "are EV's just a rich man's hobby?"
Well racing them certainly is.
That EV's can go fast (for a short time) was never in doubt, ask any R/C
racer.
But let's get a reality check, how many times have I read on the list
telling people to coast to stops in their ev's, but try not to piss off too
many people doing it, going 55 when everyone else is going 70, take off the
EV sticker on the car so you don't get EVs a bad rep for being slow, etc,
etc.
If you want to change perceptions, build EVs that actually solve the real
world problems of range, maintaince, charging, conversion cost and effort,
etc, etc.
jack
Roderick Wilde wrote:
> Chris, I'm going to have to side with GW and Jim on this one. I also
> noticed that you didn't mention my Mazda which was doing 11 flat 8
> years ago and blowing the doors off the quickest production car in the
> world at the time. Even the 2000 Dodge Viper Hennessy Venom with it's
> 800 horsepower and price tag of over a quarter of a million dollars
> could only beat it by 3/10th of a second. But hey this was all a very
> long time ago and so old school. Chris. I think you need to spend more
> time at the track and find out just how much money these gas racers
> really dump into their cars. I built my car in my yard because my shop
> at the time was an 8 by 10 foot shed and would only hold my tool boxes
> and my compressor. You can talk to Rudman and Damon from Alltrax about
that.
> They were there and helped work on the car as well as a good friend
> who flew in from New Zealand, Justin Southam, just to help out. Yes I
> was able to get sponsored batteries and I did borrow several controllers.
> You just do what you can to get by. It isn't about the money at all.
> It is about trying new ideas, about innovations. These cars that are
> out there changing perceptions are not the big buck race cars you imagine.
> In fact that is exactly what the whole point is, to change peoples
> perceptions on electric cars. When the sport eventually gets popular
> you will see the big bucks people come in and the times will drop by
> incredible amounts. We aren't waiting for the batteries any more. We
> are just waiting until we can afford them :-)
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Husted"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:50 PM
> Subject: Re: EV vs. ICE (was: Re: May issue of Car and Driver
> confirmed)
>
>
>> Hey Chris, all
>>
>> I think EVeryone would have to concede that the best EV out there
>> can't take down the best gasser (yet)lol.
>> I tend to side with GW on this one though. More often than not WZ
>> wins it's runs against average track racers. Add to that the fact of
>> when WZ ran it's first bracket race, the other racers were telling
>> Tim he was in the wrong lane because he was in the big dog lane.
>> Zombie was the slowest big dog but big enough bite, hehe.
>>
>> Maybe you weren't there when Tim made a little boy cry when Tim ate
>> up the boys uncle in a mach1 (plasma boy can confirm this)just smoked
>> him. Another time that sticks out for me was at the truck stop after
>> the Hooter girl show and shine 8^o. One of the guys had a low 11 sec
>> car, but he walked away from Tim's ride with utter respect. I also
>> believe that for KillaCycle to attend an "all Harley" race and run
>> with the boys at least proves EV's can run with the pack (no pun
>> intended).
>>
>> As far as costs go I'm sure that their are ICE racers throwing equal
>> bucks on their machines. Waylands got a lot of things sponsored but
>> John's a good stewert of that sponsorship, well except for that sex
>> scandal, drug bust, petty B&E, anyway bad example, lets take Bill.
>> Even with his A123's I bet he's in ballpark of what others are
>> spending. If nothing else looking at my new HotRod magazine I see a
>> really good write up on Bills bike 8^)
>>
>> I'm actually new to the whole race thing really, but ol Wayland's got
>> me hooked. I think Wayland said it best after Ted West's run... "Ted
>> West just ran a 12.3 at 103 MPH in a battey powered car, Take that
>> gasoline people"! I have it on tape 8^) I will admit I may be a
>> little bias on my oppinion 8^) Had fun Cya Jim Husted Hi-Torque
>> Electric
>>
>>
>>
>> --- Chris Tromley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>> GWMobile wrote:
>>>
>>> > The day the majority of hotrodders realize an
>>> electric vehicle can kick
>>> > their $#% is the day that electric vehicles will
>>> start to really take
>>> > off.
>>>
>>> It's good to be up to date on the list for the first time in many
>>> months and be able to contribute again.
>>>
>>> The sentiment above is one I had myself when I was new to EVs, even
>>> though I have some experience at a pretty high level of professional
>>> (ICE) racing. It's easy to get caught up in the excitement of
>>> showing the world how EVs really are viable. But let's not go too
>>> far.
>>> Beating an ICE with a comparable EV is very hard, if not impossible
>>> (so far). Of course "comparable" is very difficult to define.
>>>
>>> The top guns in the EV racing world are John Wayland's White Zombie,
>>> Bill Dube's Killacycle and Dennis Berube's Current Eliminator. I
>>> don't know much about rail dragsters, so better not to comment on
>>> Dennis' amazing achievements.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _____________________________________________________________________
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>>
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>>
>>
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>> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.3/700 - Release Date:
>> 2/24/2007 8:14 PM
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>>
>
>
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