EV Digest 6500
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Compressed air as battery?
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Compressed air as battery?
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Tango lane splitting
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Compressed air as battery?
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Compressed air as battery?
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Connector choices
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Compressed air as battery?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Tango lane splitting
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Compressed air as battery?
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Compressed air as battery?
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Compressed air as battery?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Largest Capacity NiMH Cells?
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Compressed air as battery?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Compressed air as battery?
by xx xx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Compressed air as battery?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: u tube porsche video burn out
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Compressed air as battery?Yeah? Right!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Compressed air as battery?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
You can't store a lot of energy in a compressed gas, and you
give off a lot of heat in compressing that gas. It's a horribly
inefficient process, actually. The storage tank weight to
energy storage ratio (assuming you're using only compressed air
as energy) makes the heaviest, most ugly batteries look light.
Many people look at the storage tank weight (and size) for compressed
natural gas (which is a fuel - you burn it and get lots of energy), and
think that it is too high. You get a lot more energy (maybe 20 or
more times as much) out of a cylinder of CNG than you do out of
an equivalently pressurized cylinder of air, because you burn it.
A 60 pound carbon fibre cylinder, filled with 30 pounds of CNG,
will get you maybe 100 miles (from my last car, a CNG Chev Caprice
with 2.73 gears). The cylinder cost something like $1000 or $1500.
I would expect maybe a 3 to 10 mile range with the same cylinder
and compressed air.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Compressed air as battery?
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 07:49:20 -0500
I disagree. The one thing the air car offered was a quick fill up and
no emissions other than the electricity generated to fill the tanks. It
is a viable source. I like his hybrid idea. It is far cleaner than a
gas hybrid and with a high pressure compressor at home you could fill it
up and charge the battery pack. It could give us the long daily range
needed.
Maybe, and maybe not. Compressed air is very inefficient as energy
storage., and takes up a lot of volume. A lot of energy is lost as heat
during the compression process - that's why a typical 1 or 2 HP compressor
has as much cooling fin area as a 1 or 2 HP ICE - to get rid of the waste
heat.
And, to get a quick fill-up you either need a large storage facility of
pre-compressed air, or a huge motor and compressor ( and, the associated
industrial power lines) that can compress the air very quickly. (while
getting rid of the huge quantity of waste heat).
And, if you use a compressed air storage facility, you have substantial
losses twice - when you originally compress the air, and when you transfer
it to the vehicle's tanks.
There are good reasons that compressed air cars don't exist.
Phil
I would think it would be better to have a parallel hybrid
though - the series way the generator would have to be huge to power the
car and charge the battery. Maybe do it like the prius and use a
smaller generator and the motor drives the car while charging the
battery.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of xx xx
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 22:05
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Compressed air as battery?
But you are still carrying around a motor, even if it's air powered, and
it still has maintenance issues and inefficiencies. They really oversold
the aircar on Future Car.
John
--- Brandon Kruger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Has anyone thought about using compressed air to store energy as a
> replacement to batteries? After seeing the "aircar"
> on Future Car, I think
> compressed air has some potential for energy storage. Depending on
> the weight of the tanks (aircar used carbon fiber) and the energy
> being stored, it could definitely yield a higher energy density then
> lead-acid. Using a motor to drive a generator, it would be possible
> to electrically recharge the car and it would deliver life cycles many
> times higher than and battery of today. I made a diagram of how I
> imagined this vehicle.
> http://bmk789.dyndns.org/pics/aircar.png It could work as a serial
> PHEV.
> Compressed air tanks could also potentially be refilled quickly. Is
> there some obvious problem with this idea or am I overestimating the
> amount of energy that can be stored as compressed air?
>
>
> Brandon
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
____________
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_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
GWMobile wrote:
Maybe the whole lane splitting sharing discussion has run its course?
This is supposed to be about building and buying ev and not driving
techniques right?
I would say that driving techniques are indeed on topic, especially when
it comes to coasting, regen, and other energy saving techniques.
HOWEVER, this particular discussion is certainly OT (despite the EV in
question), as the lane sharing / lane splitting issue applies equally if
the Tango was an ICE.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They didn't elude to it on Future car but on another discovery channel
show (Beyond Tomorrow) they actually did a full story on it. The
compressor they used was one for a scuba tank. It filled the entire
system in 15 minutes. The compressor was about the size of a suitcase
and ran off 115V power.
I understand that we are talking efficiency when we discuss Evs. What I
think we also need to consider is that you have to take into account the
efficiency of the ICE it replaces - most ICE vehicles are only about 30%
efficient. Even if you have losses of transfer from electricity to air
and then from air to motion it is better overall than the ICE. You also
have a zero emissions vehicle or very low emission if you count the
electricity generation.
We should embrace these new technologies instead of pointing out all of
their shortcomings.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Phil Marino
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 12:19
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Compressed air as battery?
>From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: <[email protected]>
>Subject: RE: Compressed air as battery?
>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 07:49:20 -0500
>
>I disagree. The one thing the air car offered was a quick fill up and
>no emissions other than the electricity generated to fill the tanks.
>It is a viable source. I like his hybrid idea. It is far cleaner than
>a gas hybrid and with a high pressure compressor at home you could fill
>it up and charge the battery pack. It could give us the long daily
>range needed.
Maybe, and maybe not. Compressed air is very inefficient as energy
storage., and takes up a lot of volume. A lot of energy is lost as
heat
during the compression process - that's why a typical 1 or 2 HP
compressor has as much cooling fin area as a 1 or 2 HP ICE - to get rid
of the waste heat.
And, to get a quick fill-up you either need a large storage facility of
pre-compressed air, or a huge motor and compressor ( and, the associated
industrial power lines) that can compress the air very quickly. (while
getting rid of the huge quantity of waste heat).
And, if you use a compressed air storage facility, you have substantial
losses twice - when you originally compress the air, and when you
transfer it to the vehicle's tanks.
There are good reasons that compressed air cars don't exist.
Phil
I would think it would be better to have a parallel hybrid
>though - the series way the generator would have to be huge to power
>the car and charge the battery. Maybe do it like the prius and use a
>smaller generator and the motor drives the car while charging the
>battery.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>Behalf Of xx xx
>Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 22:05
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: Compressed air as battery?
>
>But you are still carrying around a motor, even if it's air powered,
>and it still has maintenance issues and inefficiencies. They really
>oversold the aircar on Future Car.
>
>John
>
>
>--- Brandon Kruger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > Has anyone thought about using compressed air to store energy as a
> > replacement to batteries? After seeing the "aircar"
> > on Future Car, I think
> > compressed air has some potential for energy storage. Depending on
> > the weight of the tanks (aircar used carbon fiber) and the energy
> > being stored, it could definitely yield a higher energy density then
> > lead-acid. Using a motor to drive a generator, it would be possible
> > to electrically recharge the car and it would deliver life cycles
> > many
>
> > times higher than and battery of today. I made a diagram of how I
> > imagined this vehicle.
> > http://bmk789.dyndns.org/pics/aircar.png It could work as a serial
> > PHEV.
> > Compressed air tanks could also potentially be refilled quickly. Is
> > there some obvious problem with this idea or am I overestimating the
> > amount of energy that can be stored as compressed air?
> >
> >
> > Brandon
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________________
>_
>____________
>Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000
>destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
>http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
>
_________________________________________________________________
Play Flexicon: the crossword game that feeds your brain. PLAY now for
FREE.
http://zone.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmtagline
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually the car they showed on both Future car and Beyond tomorrow
(same car) gets 120 miles from a charge of air. It can be charged from
a scuba tank compressor in about 5 minutes. As for weight they said
the car weighed in at 1700 pounds.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dale Ulan
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 10:01
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Compressed air as battery?
You can't store a lot of energy in a compressed gas, and you give off a
lot of heat in compressing that gas. It's a horribly inefficient
process, actually. The storage tank weight to energy storage ratio
(assuming you're using only compressed air as energy) makes the
heaviest, most ugly batteries look light.
Many people look at the storage tank weight (and size) for compressed
natural gas (which is a fuel - you burn it and get lots of energy), and
think that it is too high. You get a lot more energy (maybe 20 or more
times as much) out of a cylinder of CNG than you do out of an
equivalently pressurized cylinder of air, because you burn it.
A 60 pound carbon fibre cylinder, filled with 30 pounds of CNG, will get
you maybe 100 miles (from my last car, a CNG Chev Caprice with 2.73
gears). The cylinder cost something like $1000 or $1500.
I would expect maybe a 3 to 10 mile range with the same cylinder and
compressed air.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you Rod and Don. If you guys have the specific model numbers used,
that will help too. There are so many choices!
JJ
> When I worked at Caterpillar (1989 to 1992) most of
> the harness connectors for underhood transportation
> and earth moving equipment used Deutsch connectors,
> http://www.deutschipd.com/Products/DT_Series/dt_series.html
> These offer excellent protection from contamination
> and a unique patented crimping method that offers high
> reliability.
> I have one connector in the basement that is
> rectangular and can accommodate up to 40 pins/sockets.
> Since extraction force is high it uses a hex head bolt
> in the center to pull the two halfs together or apart.
> When I worked at GE-EVS (1993-96) we used these
> connectors on golf cart and GEM EV controls.
> The connectors with the orange inserts are also cool.
> You don't need an extraction tool to get wires out.
> Just use a small screwdriver to pop out the orange
> piece, then use the screw driver to bend the plastic
> finger out that locks in the 'collar' of the
> pin/socket.
> Rod
> Rod
>
> --- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Of course, it depends...
>>
>> - voltage rating
>> - current rating
>> - weatherproof requirements
>>
>> People use Anderson for the high voltage/high
>> amperage connections.
>>
>> For me, I like the low voltage connectors from
>> waytek wire. OEM quality and
>> weather proof. Reasonable price.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------
>> See the New Beetle EV project
>> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>>
>> Check the EVDL Archives:
>> http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
>>
>> Check out the EV FAQ: www.evparts.com/faq
>>
>> Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Sent: March 1, 2007 12:46 PM
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: Connector choices
>>
>> I see lots of types of connectors for use in various
>> EV applications like
>> Molex, Anderson, Deutsch etc for high and low
>> voltage connectors and
>> harnesses etc. Is there a streamlined way to figure
>> out the best for each
>> application?
>>
>> Those with experience with these connectors, can you
>> please share your
>> wisdom, thanks JJ
>>
>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Dewey, Jody R A
>Actually the car they showed on both Future car and Beyond tomorrow
>(same car) gets 120 miles from a charge of air. It can be charged from
>a scuba tank compressor in about 5 minutes. As for weight they said
>the car weighed in at 1700 pounds.
No; these are what they *say* it will do, if they ever build it. Talk is cheap.
I'll believe them when I see independent test results.
--
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." -- Isaac Asimov
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, Mar 02, 2007 at 09:26:01AM -0800, Eric Poulsen wrote:
<..snip..>
> HOWEVER, this particular discussion is certainly OT (despite the EV in
> question), as the lane sharing / lane splitting issue applies equally if
> the Tango was an ICE.
Could the Tango be an ICE?
Would the Tango even work with advanced batteries?
The Tango needs all that lead for ballast right?
The Tango is one of the best examples I've seen of taking the biggest
liability of PbA batteries and turning it into an advantage.
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is a French outfit that has been talking/building such a thing for a
couple of years.
Was that the car on TV? I am sure its covered on one of the green car blogs or
gizmodo or slashdot.
Objections raised in this thread seem reasonable to me, but the hydraulic and flywheel flavors also seem kooky. I
thought hydraulics weren't very efficient.
As for CF high-psi tanks, they have been well tested for the H2 vehicles I
believe.
JF
Brandon Kruger wrote:
Hello,
Has anyone thought about using compressed air to store energy as a
replacement to batteries? After seeing the "aircar" on Future Car, I think
compressed air has some potential for energy storage. Depending on the
weight of the tanks (aircar used carbon fiber) and the energy being stored,
it could definitely yield a higher energy density then lead-acid. Using a
motor to drive a generator, it would be possible to electrically recharge
the car and it would deliver life cycles many times higher than and battery
of today. I made a diagram of how I imagined this vehicle.
http://bmk789.dyndns.org/pics/aircar.png It could work as a serial PHEV.
Compressed air tanks could also potentially be refilled quickly. Is there
some obvious problem with this idea or am I overestimating the amount of
energy that can be stored as compressed air?
Brandon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Compressed air as battery?
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 12:35:38 -0500
They didn't elude to it on Future car but on another discovery channel
show (Beyond Tomorrow) they actually did a full story on it. The
compressor they used was one for a scuba tank. It filled the entire
system in 15 minutes. The compressor was about the size of a suitcase
and ran off 115V power.
I understand that we are talking efficiency when we discuss Evs. What I
think we also need to consider is that you have to take into account the
efficiency of the ICE it replaces - most ICE vehicles are only about 30%
efficient. Even if you have losses of transfer from electricity to air
and then from air to motion it is better overall than the ICE.
Maybe, or maybe not. It depends on what the magnitude of those losses are.
I haven't done ( or seen) the calculations needed to know the overall
efficiency ( and, whether it's better or worse than an ICE vehicle).
Does anyone have real numbers as to what one can expect from a compressed
air system?
You also
have a zero emissions vehicle or very low emission if you count the
electricity generation.
But, with all of the inefficiencies, it would likely produce more emissions
than an EV, since it would use more electrical energy ( from the plug) per
mile.
Phil
We should embrace these new technologies instead of pointing out all of
their shortcomings.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Phil Marino
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 12:19
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Compressed air as battery?
>From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: <[email protected]>
>Subject: RE: Compressed air as battery?
>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 07:49:20 -0500
>
>I disagree. The one thing the air car offered was a quick fill up and
>no emissions other than the electricity generated to fill the tanks.
>It is a viable source. I like his hybrid idea. It is far cleaner than
>a gas hybrid and with a high pressure compressor at home you could fill
>it up and charge the battery pack. It could give us the long daily
>range needed.
Maybe, and maybe not. Compressed air is very inefficient as energy
storage., and takes up a lot of volume. A lot of energy is lost as
heat
during the compression process - that's why a typical 1 or 2 HP
compressor has as much cooling fin area as a 1 or 2 HP ICE - to get rid
of the waste heat.
And, to get a quick fill-up you either need a large storage facility of
pre-compressed air, or a huge motor and compressor ( and, the associated
industrial power lines) that can compress the air very quickly. (while
getting rid of the huge quantity of waste heat).
And, if you use a compressed air storage facility, you have substantial
losses twice - when you originally compress the air, and when you
transfer it to the vehicle's tanks.
There are good reasons that compressed air cars don't exist.
Phil
I would think it would be better to have a parallel hybrid
>though - the series way the generator would have to be huge to power
>the car and charge the battery. Maybe do it like the prius and use a
>smaller generator and the motor drives the car while charging the
>battery.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>Behalf Of xx xx
>Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 22:05
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: Compressed air as battery?
>
>But you are still carrying around a motor, even if it's air powered,
>and it still has maintenance issues and inefficiencies. They really
>oversold the aircar on Future Car.
>
>John
>
>
>--- Brandon Kruger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > Has anyone thought about using compressed air to store energy as a
> > replacement to batteries? After seeing the "aircar"
> > on Future Car, I think
> > compressed air has some potential for energy storage. Depending on
> > the weight of the tanks (aircar used carbon fiber) and the energy
> > being stored, it could definitely yield a higher energy density then
> > lead-acid. Using a motor to drive a generator, it would be possible
> > to electrically recharge the car and it would deliver life cycles
> > many
>
> > times higher than and battery of today. I made a diagram of how I
> > imagined this vehicle.
> > http://bmk789.dyndns.org/pics/aircar.png It could work as a serial
> > PHEV.
> > Compressed air tanks could also potentially be refilled quickly. Is
> > there some obvious problem with this idea or am I overestimating the
> > amount of energy that can be stored as compressed air?
> >
> >
> > Brandon
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________________
>_
>____________
>Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000
>destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
>http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
>
_________________________________________________________________
Play Flexicon: the crossword game that feeds your brain. PLAY now for
FREE.
http://zone.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmtagline
_________________________________________________________________
Rates near 39yr lows! $430K Loan for $1,399/mo - Paying Too Much? Calculate
new payment
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I visited them in Carros, near Nice in Southern France, met with Guy and his
son and other engineers.
They already had the larger van-style cars in 2000, see my photos on the MDI
yahoo group.
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/mdiaircar/
Compressor was there too, but coupled to large storage tanks, so you can
refill from the large storage tank in 5 min, not from a single compressor.
They never proved their range and when they took the film crew out for a
spin, the rumor was that they frequently suffered from power loss, which
enforced the mathematical result that their engine would freeze up.
(They hinted that they could make it work with very dry air, but then the
efficiency is still the biggest problem, kind of the Hydrogen problem in a
tame variant)
So, be confident that the ONLY high-efficiency drive I have been able to
find in practical cars is the well known electric drivetrain.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 9:50 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Compressed air as battery?
From: "Dewey, Jody R A
>Actually the car they showed on both Future car and Beyond tomorrow
>(same car) gets 120 miles from a charge of air. It can be charged from
>a scuba tank compressor in about 5 minutes. As for weight they said
>the car weighed in at 1700 pounds.
No; these are what they *say* it will do, if they ever build it. Talk is
cheap. I'll believe them when I see independent test results.
--
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." -- Isaac Asimov
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
GoldPeak produces a 30Ah NiMH cell that Vectrix (www.vectrix.com) is using
in its electric maxi-scooter.
BTW, Doug Hartley asked me in a separate thread several days ago if I had
heard when Vectrix is due to start deliveries in Europe. I told him that
the last I heard, it was supposed to be sometime in March. Well, yesterday
I received a 4MB video clip of the first fully homologated production bike
to come off the assembly line at Vectrix's Wroclaw, Poland factory being
loaded onto a truck for transport to market, mostly likely destined either
for London or Rome (which is where first deliveries will be). Right on
schedule, March 1. Pretty boring video actually, but at least it confirms
deliveries have started.
Charles Whalen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 1:38 AM
Subject: Largest Capacity NiMH Cells?
What are the largest advertised capacity, non PowerStream NiMH cells that
anyone has seen?
These claim 14AH but aren't there bigger cells than these available?
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=834
Bruce
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have to disagree.
This is a focused list, so we can achieve a certain goal.
The goal of this list is to promote and build and further the EV.
By embracing all technologies (does that include Hydrogen?) we would be
scattering our energy and become ineffective by definition.
Let's keep it to EVs until there is a better technology, as there is none at
this moment.
If you want more info on the MDI Aircar then please read the many groups and
discussion boards, I hope MDI is still hosting their forum although a lot of
(scientific proven) critique was issued there so you may need Archive.org to
read it today.
You can send me off-list email to get more details about my experience with
and visit to MDI and why I think the idea is interesting, but their
execution stinks.
The Aircar will not be efficient to run until they make an IsoTherm engine,
although they are very creative in the car execution and making it
lightweight.
Only in that respect are they interesting at the moment, as EVs can benefit
from those aspects.
Like the Hydrogen hype - at least it will give us the electric car platform,
once they figure out that Hydrogen is not going to happen in a lifetime, so
not all is bad, although so much energy and time is wasted. Unfortunately I
have had too many times the experience of "I told you so", which does not
work, so I offer my opinion and patiently wait until someone eventually
comes to the same conclusion as the laws of physics don't lie, they never
skip a beat unless by Godly intervention. But that is a whole other story
;-)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 9:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Compressed air as battery?
They didn't elude to it on Future car but on another discovery channel show
(Beyond Tomorrow) they actually did a full story on it. The compressor they
used was one for a scuba tank. It filled the entire system in 15 minutes.
The compressor was about the size of a suitcase and ran off 115V power.
I understand that we are talking efficiency when we discuss Evs. What I
think we also need to consider is that you have to take into account the
efficiency of the ICE it replaces - most ICE vehicles are only about 30%
efficient. Even if you have losses of transfer from electricity to air and
then from air to motion it is better overall than the ICE. You also have a
zero emissions vehicle or very low emission if you count the electricity
generation.
We should embrace these new technologies instead of pointing out all of
their shortcomings.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Phil Marino
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 12:19
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Compressed air as battery?
>From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: <[email protected]>
>Subject: RE: Compressed air as battery?
>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 07:49:20 -0500
>
>I disagree. The one thing the air car offered was a quick fill up and
>no emissions other than the electricity generated to fill the tanks.
>It is a viable source. I like his hybrid idea. It is far cleaner than
>a gas hybrid and with a high pressure compressor at home you could fill
>it up and charge the battery pack. It could give us the long daily
>range needed.
Maybe, and maybe not. Compressed air is very inefficient as energy
storage., and takes up a lot of volume. A lot of energy is lost as
heat
during the compression process - that's why a typical 1 or 2 HP compressor
has as much cooling fin area as a 1 or 2 HP ICE - to get rid of the waste
heat.
And, to get a quick fill-up you either need a large storage facility of
pre-compressed air, or a huge motor and compressor ( and, the associated
industrial power lines) that can compress the air very quickly. (while
getting rid of the huge quantity of waste heat).
And, if you use a compressed air storage facility, you have substantial
losses twice - when you originally compress the air, and when you transfer
it to the vehicle's tanks.
There are good reasons that compressed air cars don't exist.
Phil
I would think it would be better to have a parallel hybrid
>though - the series way the generator would have to be huge to power
>the car and charge the battery. Maybe do it like the prius and use a
>smaller generator and the motor drives the car while charging the
>battery.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>Behalf Of xx xx
>Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 22:05
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: Compressed air as battery?
>
>But you are still carrying around a motor, even if it's air powered,
>and it still has maintenance issues and inefficiencies. They really
>oversold the aircar on Future Car.
>
>John
>
>
>--- Brandon Kruger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > Has anyone thought about using compressed air to store energy as a
> > replacement to batteries? After seeing the "aircar"
> > on Future Car, I think
> > compressed air has some potential for energy storage. Depending on
> > the weight of the tanks (aircar used carbon fiber) and the energy
> > being stored, it could definitely yield a higher energy density then
> > lead-acid. Using a motor to drive a generator, it would be possible
> > to electrically recharge the car and it would deliver life cycles
> > many
>
> > times higher than and battery of today. I made a diagram of how I
> > imagined this vehicle.
> > http://bmk789.dyndns.org/pics/aircar.png It could work as a serial
> > PHEV.
> > Compressed air tanks could also potentially be refilled quickly. Is
> > there some obvious problem with this idea or am I overestimating the
> > amount of energy that can be stored as compressed air?
> >
> >
> > Brandon
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> We should embrace these new technologies instead of
> pointing out all of
> their shortcomings.
>
No we should point out all shortcomings of every
technology and then decide if the positives outweigh
the negatives. I think in this case you are ignoring
the inefficiencies involved in this technology.
Compressing a gas generates heat, which is wasted
energy, (which may or may not be recoverable to some
degree at the source but does not add to the
efficiency of the vehicle.) There are also frictional
losses in a compressor since it's similar to an ICE.
Then when you run the compressed air in your air
engine you again have frictional losses. As has been
stated you cannot store much energy in compressed air,
and the claimed mileage has not been proven, not even
close. I doubt you can pump enough air in 15 minutes
to power a car for 100 miles. My 5HP 2 cylinder 230
volt air compressor takes about 10 minutes to fill
it's 20 gallon tank to 120psi. Don't forget that with
this system you have two compression motors to
maintain as well, compressor and air motor. At this
point the aircar looks like a lot of hot air, (excuse
the pun).
John
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It depends strongly on what you do with the heat.
Search on "Isotherm" and "Adiabatic" to get the differences.
In theory the Isotherm process can be without losses, but
an efficient process requires a large number of small
de-compression steps, making it impractical.
Adiabatic is wasteful.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 8:09 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Compressed air as battery?
Anyone know the overall efficiency of electricity --> Compressor -->
Compressed Air --> mechanical energy --> electricity? You could skip the
last step ...
Brandon Kruger wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Has anyone thought about using compressed air to store energy as a
> replacement to batteries? After seeing the "aircar" on Future Car, I
> think compressed air has some potential for energy storage. Depending
> on the weight of the tanks (aircar used carbon fiber) and the energy
> being stored, it could definitely yield a higher energy density then
> lead-acid.
> Using a
> motor to drive a generator, it would be possible to electrically
> recharge the car and it would deliver life cycles many times higher
> than and battery of today. I made a diagram of how I imagined this
> vehicle.
> http://bmk789.dyndns.org/pics/aircar.png It could work as a serial PHEV.
> Compressed air tanks could also potentially be refilled quickly. Is
> there some obvious problem with this idea or am I overestimating the
> amount of energy that can be stored as compressed air?
>
>
> Brandon
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ahh a Goldie Launch!!!
Nice.
No sound though.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 7:33 AM
Subject: u tube porsche video burn out
>
> A friend took this on my camara ,, and down loaded to u tube this was a
film crue taking some video of my porsche , its under battery powered
Porsche . The film crue was for the discovery channel in Cannada , don't
know if or when it will air
>
>
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=battery+powered+porsche&search=Search
> Steve Clunn
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 12:37 PM
Subject: RE: Compressed air as battery?
> Actually the car they showed on both Future car and Beyond tomorrow
> (same car) gets 120 miles from a charge of air. It can be charged from
> a scuba tank compressor in about 5 minutes. As for weight they said
> the car weighed in at 1700 pounds.
>
> Hi EVerybody;
You believe all that I have a nice bridge in Brooklyn to sell you!!Only
100 years old , but in good shape, still,too.
Damn! We have been hearing about electrics that will charge up from a
wall outlet, in 15 minutes and go for hundreds of miles, on a charge, too.
In that this gets on main stream TV is amazing! Nobody has stepped forward
to cry "Foul"? The laws of Physics are in effect till further notice. EVen
the Bush Adm. hasn't taken on this one!<g>
Seems like the Hot Aire Line has taken the EV hucksters lines. Compressed
air? You have a compresser out in the garage? Right? How LOOOONG it takes to
pump up?How HOT iy gets on the compressor/feed lines? Locomotives, who only
pump up to 140 PSI have hundreds of feet of lines folded back and forth
along their mainframes, not for looks, but for cooling!They have automatic
"Spitters" to drain condensation of water OUT of the big resoivoir tanks,
underneith. If you are standing near a relatively new lokie it will sound,
well, almost, like it is spitting at you.If it didn't you would have "Air in
the Water tanks" I would call it with the old ones, which it was part of
your duty to drain the water EVery day, when you worked them. Amazing how
much water would piss out if you missed a few daze!
Points I'm trying to make: Air isn't that easy to handle. Stuffing
thousands of psi into a car tank has a lot of 19th century problems, not
addressed today, by the Hot Aire Folks. Trolley cars were sorta successfully
run on compressed air, back in the 1880's. A car built with a "Double
Botton"like a ship, could store enough air for a 10-15 mile run, at a modest
80-90 lbs, the engine, like a recip. steam engine COULD recharge going down
hill, by valve shifting, like a Steam Locomotive, could be reversed easily,
wasn't hy tech in the 80's.The above mentioned issues, heat, condensation,
leakage, were lived with as daily nuncenses. EVerything on the car had to be
extreamly "Tight" to save the air pressure. Airlines were run along the
route to be able to get a recharge if the car ran out of breath.
Often wonder if, with todaze upgrades in tech, Higher pressures, etc you
could run a modest performing air trolley?But why bother? Just string wires
or state of the art batteries? Does the Chevron Patent stop ya from building
Nmh RAILCARS, busses, ferrys, trux? Oh ,Ho, that's getting very "Hiway"
The air car turns up every now and again, rediculous claims made but if
you do the math? Forgetaboutit!Guys! We know better, EVen our crappy
conversions do better. There are a hellova lot more EV conversions out there
than any aircars. Like whens the last time you saw an air car in
traffic?They would be chuffeling along right with you. IF they were real.
Dale is right on target here! See below.
Sorry! No free Lunch. EV's issues aren't technical, but political.
My two psi worth.
Bob
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Dale Ulan
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 10:01
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Compressed air as battery?
>
> You can't store a lot of energy in a compressed gas, and you give off a
> lot of heat in compressing that gas. It's a horribly inefficient
> process, actually. The storage tank weight to energy storage ratio
> (assuming you're using only compressed air as energy) makes the
> heaviest, most ugly batteries look light.
>
> Many people look at the storage tank weight (and size) for compressed
> natural gas (which is a fuel - you burn it and get lots of energy), and
> think that it is too high. You get a lot more energy (maybe 20 or more
> times as much) out of a cylinder of CNG than you do out of an
> equivalently pressurized cylinder of air, because you burn it.
>
> A 60 pound carbon fibre cylinder, filled with 30 pounds of CNG, will get
> you maybe 100 miles (from my last car, a CNG Chev Caprice with 2.73
> gears). The cylinder cost something like $1000 or $1500.
> I would expect maybe a 3 to 10 mile range with the same cylinder and
> compressed air.
>
> -Dale
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.413 / Virus Database: 268.18.6/708 - Release Date: 3/2/07
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's not all a matter of shortcomings such a noise, but the validity of
their claims. You said they presented these numbers. Those numbers are
the basis for it being a very cheap, efficient vehicle with a very
practical range.
Well let's calculate some estimates.
15 min of 115V, let's say 15 amps. 431 watt-hours.
A decent size of a single 12v deep cycle battery can deliver 36 amp-hrs
for 432 [EMAIL PROTECTED], and this will hardly move an EV for very far.
OK, a lighter vehicle not carrying a great deal of lead will do somewhat
better, but the inefficiency of compressing and using compressed air
hasn't yet been accounted for.
Now that later email mentions 120mi on a scuba tank compressor in 5
min. I don't see how anything like that could be possible. Let's say
your vehicle needs 300w-hr per mi. 36KWH. At 220V and not even taking
into account inefficiencies, the compressor would have to draw 1964 amps
to charge in 5 min. I have no basis for hard numbers on energy lost due
to heating and cooling but I'd be shocked if it were less than 30%, and
wouldn't be surprised at 70% at higher power where the airflow would get
very cold.
As far as capacity goes, I saw some calcs showing a tank holding
345watt-hrs, little more than a mile's worth of energy (expansion
cooling losses still unknown). It's worth noting that not all this
pressure is usable either. I could imagine 10 or 20 times that volume
for a sedan, with more extreme designs which are basically a tank on
wheels 120 mi could be possible in theory. Well, that would be around
5x the length, height, and width, something like a very large couch.
But still, a heck of a large electrical input will be required to charge
a tank of this size.
I don't see where the numbers show it can replace an ICE for a great
deal of long range driving since the tank size appears impractical
unless there are frequent stops at compressor stations; it should be
possible to dump precompressed air into your tank quite quickly. The
lack of great efficiency, possibly very poor efficiency, is a
considerable concern even if one only wanted it as a shorter range
commuter car. Its practical range sounds similar to an EV at best
(though my suspicions would suggest less). There may be no gains as far
as carbon dioxide emissions required to make the electricity to compress
the air to make it go. If gasoline becomes unavailable but we have
plenty of coal or nat gas fired plants, there could be a case for it
though you'd need to compare total costs with an EV.
Danny
Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G wrote:
They didn't elude to it on Future car but on another discovery channel
show (Beyond Tomorrow) they actually did a full story on it. The
compressor they used was one for a scuba tank. It filled the entire
system in 15 minutes. The compressor was about the size of a suitcase
and ran off 115V power.
I understand that we are talking efficiency when we discuss Evs. What I
think we also need to consider is that you have to take into account the
efficiency of the ICE it replaces - most ICE vehicles are only about 30%
efficient. Even if you have losses of transfer from electricity to air
and then from air to motion it is better overall than the ICE. You also
have a zero emissions vehicle or very low emission if you count the
electricity generation.
We should embrace these new technologies instead of pointing out all of
their shortcomings.
--- End Message ---
