EV Digest 6508
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Processor Lockup Failsafe
by "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV swamp cooler
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EVLN(New ratings reduce MPG numbers)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: axles
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: electric power newbie
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: BattEQ test (was Battery Woes)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Better Data Logging Options?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Processor Lockup Failsafe
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Motor blower
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Freedom EV Questions And a few answers. Peri contact me.
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Motor mods
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Processor Lockup Failsafe
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: A Must See - Portland Roadster Show and White Zombie
by "Ted C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: A Must See - Portland Roadster Show and White Zombie
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Processor Lockup Failsafe
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: swamp cooled EV?
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: swamp cooled EV?
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: BattEQ test (was Battery Woes)
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Now, I am more confused about EV quality batteries than I have ever been
in the last 10 years
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: swamp cooled EV?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Floor scrubbers
by "Sean Korb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Clarification on my high and low voltage on the Festiva
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Geo
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Race Preps for DC Motors
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) PowerCheq Modules and Zivan Charger Questions
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
26) Re: Now, I am more confused about EV quality batteries than I have ever
been in the last 10 years
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> If you're using a microprocessor to control charging, what's a good
way
> to have the system fail to a safe state, should the processor freeze
> up--for example, turn off the charger. One possibility that came to
> mind was some type of circuit or chip that expects its input to be
> flip-flopped every few seconds, and if it isn't, opens a relay. Is
> there a simple circuit or chip that already does this? Or is there a
> better way?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
Hi Bill,
I've seen a ssytem which uses a 50Hz square wave to keep a system
active. Can't remember what the system was exactly off the top of my
head.
What you could do is put a microprocessor or a an active filter on your
main contactor switch controller, so that should the 50Hz, for example,
not be received the micro drops the contactor, or in an active filter
the switch drops the contactor.
A safe bet will always be a manual kill switch somewhere within easy
reach of the driver !
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you could talk these folks into selling you a demo
unit you could have a nice 12v unit that could be duct
right into the car. No humidity as it is what they
call a 2 stage evaporative unit. All the moisture left
outside with just cool dry air coming in.
www.coolerado.com/
____________________________________________________________________________________
Have a burning question?
Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael wrote:
Why does it have to be political?
Because everyone involved in writing the specs are politicians? :-)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack Murray wrote:
sounds good, particularly if you use the smaller 7.5, the 8.8 seems way
too heavy for what will be a very lightweight car.
We haven't noticed any significant weight difference between the 7.5"
and 8.8" differentials. Given that we are using a WarP 9" motor and
Zilla, we opted for the stronger 8.8".
I found the 7.5 5:13 gear at Mark Williams
http://www.markwilliams.com/detail.aspx?ID=1477
but then found that Summit also had a Richmond gear
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=RMG%2DSFD7507&N=700+400137+4294918962+4294900886+4294776357+115&autoview=sku
Tim Medeck is doing the assembly on this part. He wrote me:
> Kenny at JMJ told me that it won't stand the torque put out by a
> WarP 9". That's why we went with the bigger 8.8". If Jack or someone
> else wants to try the 7.5" however, I'd be interested to see if it
> works under high load.
>
> Another problem with the 7.5" is buying quality gears in the 5.14
> range. Richmond Gear makes them, but again, Kenny warned us off using
> Richmond (noisy, lower quality). However, if it works, it opens up
> a lot more donor cars for the kit buyer.
What are you using to connect the motor to the differential?
In the Sunrise, we are using a McMaster-Carr "spider" coupler (see their
web page 1115). A 1-1/8" hub fits directly on the motor. A 2-1/16" hub
fits on the raised centering ringl on the differential pinion flange; it
needs 4 holes bored in it to bolt it the threaded holes in the pinion
flange.
it probably won't fit horizontal mounting, I'll have to rotate it up.
Is there an issue for the ADC motor to operate that way?
No; they work in any position. You'll have to attend to the differential
lubrication, though, if you operate it in any other position.
Another thought is to mount the motor above the diff and use a short
chain or belt drive onto the pinion. This drive can be 1:1 so no
problem getting the parts for that, in fact, with some gearing here, say
1:1.5 would only require a gear in the diff of 3.0, so the stock gears
could be used.
Yes, that is also possible.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm starting to build a small electric propulsion system . I
have a 24V Westinghouse aircraft starter-generator which were sold
by Princess Auto of Winnipeg at one time. It is 8 pole series
wound, around 3 Kw I believe, so should be ample power for my
application. I haven't been able to get any specs on this machine
so I'm not sure if its rated for continuous use or not. Does
anyone have any info for this motor?
You'll have to provide more information for us to be able to tell what
you have. What does the nameplate on it say? What is its size and weight?
3kw is only about 3 horsepower; that's not much. OK for a golf cart or
small motorcycle, but not a car.
Most of these units are designed for continuous duty at high rpm, with a
very strong airflow for cooling.
I'm also not sure if drive will slow the motor down to the 900 or so
RPM it would like to run at. Maybe the controller will take care of this.
A controller can make it run slower, but you also decrease power. If it
produces 3kw at full speed, it will only produce 1.5kw at half speed, etc.
Is it possible to reverse this motor?
Yes, but they usually require some disassembly and internal wiring changes.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mick Abraham wrote:
When the voltage difference has narrowed to only 4 hundredths from
highest monobloc to lowest, the remaining energy doesn't need to
move in a hurry. Slow is fine when the voltages are this close.
But, the high ones are under load, and the low ones are being charged.
This pushes their voltages closer together, so you can't tell what the
real state of charge of each battery is from its voltage.
Cor would have to disconnect the equalizer for several hours, and see
what the battery voltages are without charging/discharging to estimate
their relative states of charge.
A simple way to see this: Start with two batteries at different states
of charge. Connect them directly in parallel -- they instantly go to the
same voltage! But they are still at different states of charge.
Now connect them thru an ammeter -- it starts at a high initial current,
but very quickly falls to a very low level. If you record the amphours
flowing between them, it will take many days for them to settle out at
the same state of charge because the current is so low.
For batteries that are well matched, or that aren't used much, you'll
have enough time for a low balance current to work.
[Mick says:] To drill down further from a simple before/after
capacity test, the critical questions are:
1. What is the maximum energy that the gizmo can pump?
2. How much energy does it lose in the process?
I agree. For an EV, your "daily drive" will produce some degree of
imbalance. This can be expressed by how many amphours difference is
required to bring each battery back to the same state of charge.
Then, you need a balancing system that can produce this much charge
differential per day.
Flying capacitor and small shunt regulators are good for providing small
numbers of amphours per day of balancing (like a couple amphours).
Often, that's enough. It only takes a small amount of force to keep
something balanced that is already almost perfectly balanced.
As the battery capacity gets bigger, or the batteries are used harder,
or as they get older, or when there are extenuating circumstances
(different ages or types of batteries mixed in the the pack, etc.), the
number of amphours needed to restore balance gets larger. That's where
higher power balancers like my battery balancer come into play. They can
deal with imbalances of 10's of amphours per day.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Chancey wrote:
As some of you may recall, I have been data logging my charge/discharge
cycles using the RS-232 port on my E-meter and an old P75 laptop. I
have been using the Hyperterminal software included in Windows 95 and
capturing the data to a text file. Since the E-meter sends a complete
data string every second, these files rapidly swell in size and contain
a lot redundant information.
My question is, is there a more flexible alternative?
I use an old QuickBASIC program to read the data stream from the
E-meter. It reads the line, deletes the unneeded data, averages the data
together over many lines, and saves the result in a comma-delimited file
that Excel or other programs can manipulate. It also displays a running
graph of volts, amps, and amphours vs. time on the screen, and can print
this graph if you like.
One of the tricks it uses to minimize data files: the faster the data is
changing, the more often it saves the averaged samples. During charging,
it might only save a data point once an hour. During driving, it might
save every single 1-second sample.
I'd be glad to send you a copy if you like.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I use MSP430 processors, and they (many most? others) have what is
called watchdog timer. It can be configured to reboot the processor if
the watchdog doesn't get reset periodically by the software.
Of course if the processor itself burns up it won't be rebooting, but
you can do the circuit such that passive components will have the normal
state OFF, so the MPU must run to turn them on. There are also external
supervisor chips you can use to do monitoring and turn on/off things
when fail conditions occur. I find it easier to just us another MPU.
This is what I have made for a "pre-charge" controller, before it turns
on the main contactor it turns on the pre-charge and makes sure the
current stops flowing before allowing the main to turn on. It also
monitors the RPM and will shut off the main contactor if it goes too
high. And checks the throttle and turns off the contactor if the
throttle is closed and battery current is still flowing.
And it monitors the current drain to give a fuel-gauge output.
Jack
Bill Dennis wrote:
If you're using a microprocessor to control charging, what's a good way
to have the system fail to a safe state, should the processor freeze
up--for example, turn off the charger. One possibility that came to
mind was some type of circuit or chip that expects its input to be
flip-flopped every few seconds, and if it isn't, opens a relay. Is
there a simple circuit or chip that already does this? Or is there a
better way?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My LeSled EV (Lectric Leopard based on Renault LeCar, but using 120V
of floodeds) is inching toward full-time use. After my close-to-home
trials the motor is usually too hot to leave my hand on it.
For general info, the MTA 4001 Prestolite motor in the Leopard is
known to do well at 120V, even though it's rated at 48V. However this
only applies to light cars. LeSled is 3000+ lbs.
I'd like to hook up a blower to extend its life. I have little space,
either for a blower or a larger DC/DC to power it. Questions:
1) I understand a blower is needed rather than a fan (centrifugal or
radial, not axial) in order to generate enough pressure to cram air
through the tight gaps inside a motor. Does anyone know what is an
appropriate flow rate to be effective?
2) I'd prefer that it run from pack voltage to keep the load off my
DC/DC. The descriptions of these motors is generally brief. If it is
a 115 VAC brushed motor, does that mean it's a universal motor that I
can run off DC (with proper DC-rated switching)? If it has a starting
cap, does that mean AC only?
So far I've found a few possible candidates. This one is listed as
50/60 Hz with one speed (3400 rpm), so I thought it might be
universal. But that looks like a cap on the side of the motor:
http://www.candhsales.biz/cgi-bin/shop991/shop.pl/SID=1089914489/page=60CB.htm#ACB2300
Here's one that looks promising, except the flow rate is probably a typo:
http://www.herbach.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=HAR&Product_Code=TM00BLR4428&Category_Code=FAN
I compared it to this one just to get a sanity check. Not sure what
to think - this one is the wrong voltage, but suggests the H&R unit is
a universal motor, centrifugal, though not continuous duty:
http://www.candhsales.biz/cgi-bin/shop991/shop.pl/SID=1089914489/page=60CB.htm#ACB2100
are two that look pretty similar, but with different descriptions
The search continues. Does anyone have any advice that might narrow the search?
Thanks for any info.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tom and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Tom Gocze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Freedom EV Questions And a few answers.
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 16:40:38 -0500
>Hey Bob,
>That is a great story! I have followed it in the bits and
>pieces that we see from day to day on EVDL. It great fun
>to read it all in one fell swoop!
>
>Thanks for taking the time to put it all down in one place.
>Tom in Maine
Yes it was a great story as only Bob can.
Regretfully I didn't see it until now as I never received
it. After your post I went to the archives and found it and
others I didn't get.
Bob has been a shining light to get EV's built
doing whatever he can, whenever he can. Thanks Bob, your the
best!!!!
Jerry Dycus
813-671-3059
Peri, my e mail answer can't get though your e mail
filter.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey James, all
James and I have had a one on one chat on these motors
but I thought it'd be nice to do a public post for all
the other motor dorks out there 8^P I also wasn't
able to respond back as much as I'd have liked so here
goes.
The MKZ motors were just to small for the lift they
were in and had a bad issue with burning the fields
up. It appears to me that although dark these coils
seemed to have faired okay.
I do see a little burning on the brush ring where the
brushes ride. Another sign of it's hard life as a
lift truck motor. Although not great, it looks like
it's not burnt to bad.
I like what you did with the new lead setup but they
appear pretty thick and I'm wondering if you've
checked to see they'll fit between the riser yet??
I ask cause I can see that the CE bearing is locked
into the plate still (making it harder for a test
fit). I also ask because in doing Bill Dube's first
CE plate, the lead hit the coils (I didn't check) and
I had to redo the whole thing, really ticked me off,
lol.
James is running low on the FusasFab I sent him and
asked if a Nomex sheet would be okay for a seperater
between the two leads. I responded yes, but on seeing
the pics I see you need to make sure that you protect
it from the opposing holder which I see you posted
about already.
Hope you don't feel I'm picking on you here 8^P
Just trying to point out things to look for as FYI's.
I really like the way you tied the lead / terminal
connection for the face mount 8^)
Keep up the good work helping to get EV's on the road.
I know James doesn't have 5 flavors of motor shop
down there so it's gotta be tough to do with what's at
hand. I guess I'm saying it's pretty easy to make a
hamburger when you work at McDonalds, LMAO!
Please keep me posted on how they workout for the guy.
Hope this helps. Yeah I know, like salt on a snail,
hehe.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> G'day All
>
> I've been busy modifying Prestolite motors (well,
> the first one of a pair).
> Seperate the fields from 4 windings in series to 2 +
> 2, and for convenience
> bringing the new connections out via the old A1 & A2
> terminals. New
> armature terminals through the end plate so that
> they do not need any
> flexible cables to the brush holders, with new
> cross-connection bars. The
> bars sit against each other for nearly 1/4 the way
> around the motor, so
> will need good insulation between them!
>
> Pics at:
>
http://jcmassey.gallery.netspace.net.au/Electric-vehicle-pics
> in
> the album "Dons' EV Parts build-up"
>
> Mods include an industrial temperature sensor jammed
> into the windings (in
> a space between the pole shoe and the field winding,
> not ideal but a simple
> fit). Don will time his motors once they get back to
> him (his friend who is
> the transport leaves in 10 days). Hopefully I'll get
> a control panel built
> for him in that time, too, so no spare time for
> James at the moment!
>
> Comments welcome
>
> Regards
>
> [Technik] James
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
If you're using a microprocessor to control charging, what's a good way
to have the system fail to a safe state, should the processor freeze
up--for example, turn off the charger. One possibility that came to
mind was some type of circuit or chip that expects its input to be
flip-flopped every few seconds, and if it isn't, opens a relay. Is
there a simple circuit or chip that already does this? Or is there a
better way?
There are lots of ways. Here are just a few.
- Use a micro with a watchdog timer that resets it if the program
"crashes". Be sure the watchdog can't be disabled by the micro!
- Use a reset circuit that always resets the micro every so often,
no matter what. Write the program so this causes no difficulties
for operation.
- Have hardware circuits to control the whole charging algorithm.
Only use the micro for displays, communications, or other non-
critical functions.
- Make critical outputs AC-coupled (not DC-coupled), so the micro
has to output an AC signal to turn them on. Write the program so
this AC signal is only generated when it passes completely thru
the main loop. A "crash" or hardware failure leave the output
stuck high or stuck low; but of which turn the load off.
- Split the tasks between two smaller micros. Require that they
both agree to turn critical outputs on.
- "The juggler": Write your program so the necessary output is only
produced by a precisely timed sequence of events. If the micro
screws up, it fails to produce this sequence and things shut down.
For example, the micro has to phase control an SCR to power a 12v
relay coil from the 120vac line -- get it wrong and the relay is
off or overvoltaged and blows a fuse.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<snip>
Ted, you may have misunderstood me. I told you that the photo in that
poster was from the magazine's story. The poster you saw was one I put
together (with permission granted by Car and Driver) especially for this
show. It may have looked more like a magazine front cover shot because of
the way I used the photo and surrounded it with special fonts and such,
but it was not a cover shot, for sure....I can only wish for that. The
photo 'is' one from many that will be in the May issue's article. To
repeat....we are not on the cover of the May issue. We 'are' in the issue
though, along with Rod Wilde and Father Time, with what should be a four
page spread about NEDRA and their night drag racing in White Zombie.
Thanks for taking the four hour round trip to Portland and back home, I
appreciate it very much. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.
Thanks for clearing that up before I go to work and tell EVeryone what to be
looking for. You did such a good job with the poster that it looked like the
real deal. Front cover or not, it's great to have an EV be a major article
in a main stream magazine.
Thanks again for the being there to answer questions. I'm sure the long
hours of the show make for a long day. Keep up the good work.
Ted
Olympia, WA
N47 03.442 W122 49.108
What this power is I cannot say; all I know is that it exists and it becomes
available only when a man is in that state of mind in which he knows exactly
what he wants and is fully determined not to quit until he finds it. -
Alexander Graham Bell
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- "Ted C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So I saw the posting on the list about the White
> Zombie at the Portland Roadster Show. I thought to
> myself, "Am I going to do the two hour drive from
> Olympia, WA to Portland,
Hey all
I wish I could have attended but I got stuck helping
my sister and mom this weekend 8^( I also know if
wasn't anywhere near as fun 8..^(
I am looking forward to a full report from Wayland
though after he recoups lol. I know when I went to
the other show last year I was pretty horse from all
the talking (and I'm told I'm a talker)LMAO!
So how'd it go John??
Cya
Jim Husted
____________________________________________________________________________________
Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.
Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's commonly called a "watchdog".
Most microcontrollers have a watchdog timer on board. You configure how
long it takes to timeout when you program the chip, in many case the
code can't overwrite it to turn off the watchdog or change the timeout
period. The code must issue a specific command to clear the timer
before it times out or the watchdog will force a reset.
If the chip somehow has its state corrupted and stops executing
instructions the timer won't get cleared and the part will reset and
hopefully recover.
Most common cause of a problem is the power fluctuation as the power is
first turned on.
It can help recover from a software bug too. The use of watchdogs
requires some thought though, in particular where the smartest place in
the code is to clear the timer.
Watchdog timers usually cannot make a chip recover from latch-up from
having a high voltage spike on Vdd.
Danny
Bill Dennis wrote:
If you're using a microprocessor to control charging, what's a good
way to have the system fail to a safe state, should the processor
freeze up--for example, turn off the charger. One possibility that
came to mind was some type of circuit or chip that expects its input
to be flip-flopped every few seconds, and if it isn't, opens a relay.
Is there a simple circuit or chip that already does this? Or is there
a better way?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
(snip)
Another possibility is that an a/c u..nit will operate more
effectively- and more efficiently- the cooler the condensor coil is.
It's possible to swamp-cool the coil and boost the output of the
system. However, I suspect it's not all that great since home central
a/c units are always fighting to get more efficiency and more BTUs yet
I have not seen such a system being tried.
(snip)
Last summer, I rigged a couple of those porch / patio mister heads on
either side of my central AC unit, so that the mist was sucked into the
radiator.
Believe it or not, it worked TOO well. The AC was colder for a while,
then nothing. I checked the interior exchanger to find that it had iced
up. Had to turn it off and let it defrost.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had been contemplating doing this to my A/C. I used to have a
10.000BTU window unit and it would piss a constant stream of
condensation water on most days. I wanted to pump condensation water
through a mister to improve cooling of the radiator. I newer got
around to testing it so I'm glad to hear it could have worked. Maybe
all it needs is a thermostat to control the mister so it shuts off
before the A/C freezes.
Of course, on humid days when you get the most condensation
evaporation cooling wouldn't do anything and on dry days when evap
cooling would be the most effective you don't get any condensation.
The latter case can be remedied by manually refilling the water
reservoir.
On 3/4/07, Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Danny Miller wrote:
> (snip)
> Another possibility is that an a/c u..nit will operate more
> effectively- and more efficiently- the cooler the condensor coil is.
> It's possible to swamp-cool the coil and boost the output of the
> system. However, I suspect it's not all that great since home central
> a/c units are always fighting to get more efficiency and more BTUs yet
> I have not seen such a system being tried.
>
> (snip)
Last summer, I rigged a couple of those porch / patio mister heads on
either side of my central AC unit, so that the mist was sucked into the
radiator.
Believe it or not, it worked TOO well. The AC was colder for a while,
then nothing. I checked the interior exchanger to find that it had iced
up. Had to turn it off and let it defrost.
--
www.electric-lemon.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3/4/07, Mick Abraham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Philippe said: "Most important test and simplest for proving battery
equaliser benefit is just showing it's able to charge the weakest from the
other string batteries and the rate, in these essential aspects test 2 will
say all tomorrow."
[Mick says:] I respectfully differ; your test 2 will not necessarily tell
all, because it doesn't simulate what really happens when a battery string
is at work. I earlier suggested that "the acid test for any battery string
is the number of amp-hours it can deliver before it hits a low voltage
shutoff point." If a balancing solution can increase that amp-hour delivery
that's the best way to measure the benefit of that balancing solution.
Hello Mick,
I read the "test report" on your website
(http://www.abrahamsolar.com/framespages/topfloor/batteq/testreport.htm),
and with equal respect, I suggest that the criteria you state above
can be very misleading. Measured capacity can improve dramatically
over several charge/discharge cycles without any magical black boxes
attached, especially if you are starting with cells that have been
sitting unexercised for a while.
You would need to have a very controlled environment (temperature
controlled, and a battery where the capacity has stabilised to a very
repeatable figure) for this to be meaningful.
From your report:
[..]
My very next measured discharge on this string of golf cart batteries
yielded an astonishing 88.3 amp hours. This represented a capacity
increase of over 6.5 times versus my earlier tests.I know this is hard
to believe, but I saw it with my own eyes.
[..]
As the old saying goes, if something is too good to be true, it probably is.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So, I need a new pack. I figured that anyway. The ones I was using were take
outs from a friend's EV, and they were pretty bad when I go them.
Still trying to make the right decision for the Festiva EV, and I need to
keep the voltage between 96 and 120 and need about a 4kW-hr pack minimum.
Option #1 -
8 x 12 set of Optimas. I can get the yellow tops at the Sams Club for $165 /
ea. $1320*1.07(tax) = $1412. They are 50 AH, and have a very decent warranty.
Something like 8 years. But, it sounds like I have to have regulators on
them, or I'll toast them. Will Lee's regulators do, or do I have to get a set
of balancers. If I need balancers, the price is probably out of my range
(considering it will give me only about 10 mile range)
Option #2 -
8 x 12 V set of deep cycle, trolling, starting marine batteries. This is
what I bought one of to test. I'm talking about the MAXX-29 from Walmart made
by Johnson Controls. It has an 18 month warranty and is $65 / ea. With tax,
that's $556. But, they won't fit in the car unless I do some serious mods to
the battery boxes (which were made for 15 golf cart or Group 24 size).
Option #3-
9 x 12 V set of similar quality batts as option #2, but rated only 80 AH
each. I can fit in 9 no problem, and my charger (BC-20) goes up to 108 V. No
regulators needed. The batteries have a 1 year warranty. I fear they will
last 6 months and I'll just be out a couple hundred dollars.
Option #4-
Flooded lead golf cart batts. I'd need 8 V to get the voltage. My car
originally had 13 of these, but it was a lead sled and only went 20 miles with
very poor performance. With the 550 A controller, it would be better than 400
A, but I just have bad feelings about these. Trojans are too expensive. That
leaves me with good old Exide which I have heard nothing but bad stuff about.
I didn't have too much luch with US2200 that I put in my Jet 007 in 2004.
Option #5 and up ...
I even considered Li Ion. What would 8 Valance cost? It would give me
everything I ever wanted in an EV, but severely break my budget.
Then, there are the DeWalt packs made of A123. I only need about a 4 kW-hr
pack. Could one be fabricated by buying these off e-bay at $100 / ea. I think
they typically for for about $100 / 36 V pack. I figure about $2000 to build a
pack, but what about a management system?
Finally, there is NiMH. And a lot of them. Get a lot of Sub C (best cost
per Watt-hr because of high volume) cells 1.2 V / 2.7 Ah each. 80 in series =
1 string of 96 V = 259 Watt-hr / ea string. Do that 15 times. That's 1200
cells. Thats about $1350 delivered and time to weld it up (about 4-6 hours).
Put a 25 A automotive relay on each string along with a 25 A fuse. Charge each
string seperate with relays open. Discharge in parallel. One bad cell, and
the fuse on that string will blow. Then, you get the chore of finding the bad
cell in the string of 80. I started doing this 2 years ago, and built a 36 in
series x 5 in parallel. Each one was fused. Anyway, it really didn't work
because I didn't have enough cells.
Based on all that, I have no idea what a good solution is. So, I just bought
my secondary battery pack (yesterday) and plan to use the inverter to keep
charging my current pack when it goes dead every 4 miles. It'll probably last
a few months like this. Then, I have no idea what I am going to do.
I'm wiulling to spend some good money on a pack, but I want results for my
money. I want something that has the performance I have right now, and can do
at least 15 miles. If I could get 30-50 miles, I'd be willing to pay for it,
within reason.
I'm open to suggestions.
Steve
---------------------------------
Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
LOL
Sorry, but the light coming thru glass that causes the heat build up is
not in the visible spectrum. The coatings(actually they put it in the
laminate between the two pieces of glass that make up a windshield)
reduces visible light less than 2% (was 4% a few years back, they are
getting better)
I was on GM's internal service email list for a while, (Don't know how,
I think the service manager accidently added me to his CC list as I was
emailing him about something else) Anyway, I got the stuff they send to
the service department managers and apparently aftermarket replacement
of windshields where the repair shop didn't know about the special tent
was causing AC service complaints from customers in hot areas and
nightmares of return visits to the service bay because they were unable
to solve the problem. (darn service bays are indoors!)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I hate to add more to the mix... lots of battery discussions going on at the
moment. I've been looking at 12V floor scrubber batteries from Trojan and
US Battery, and they have very attractive AH ratings. The weight is a bit
high, but I'm re-engineering my rear suspension and frame anyway (1600lb car
+ 800lb battery pack = wheels gonna fall off) and looking at battery box
construction. I should settle on my battery dimensions soon, but I'd really
like to get 50 miles range out of the thing. At over 200 minutes at 25A, it
doesn't seem as much a pipe dream as a battery dream.
That might be a tall order, but if I'm just a battery pack with wheels, I
might make it. Maybe I should design it for a popular floor scrubber
battery and just sink some cheaper batteries in there to see how much I like
it as I gleefully burn them out.
--
Sean Korb [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.spkorb.org
'65, '68 Mustangs, '68 Cougar, '78 R100/7, '71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some things that might help. Adjust the timing of your motor forward.
Properly inflate your tires. Some of us run regular tires at 40psi. If you
have 44psi tires fully inflate them. Check alignment. Check brake drag.
Add synthetic oil to your transmission. In your case I think it runs on
ATF. Use synthetic ATF. If you can put LRR tires on that is EVen better.
You are at 100 vdc taking your pack down to about 50% DOD. Your Festiva is
lighter than a VW Rabbit by a bit so it should be fairly peppy. If you went
over 30 miles and came up with this voltage you are doing very good. I
suspect you got between 10 & 20 miles. Not so great. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Powers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "ev" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 8:31 AM
Subject: Clarification on my high and low voltage on the Festiva
> 96 V pack of AGM.
>
> I fully charge and get about 105 V. That is OK.
>
> I run it until is starts slowing down, poor performance. I measure the
pack (not under load) after I stop, and it is around 100 V. Then, it
bounces back to about 101 V after a few hours. Still, the perofrmance is
very bad, and I can't drive it in that state.
>
> As for the inverter / charger plan, I have the parts, but not yet
installed.
>
> Why not just 8 of the 120 Ah 12 V batts for $65 ea? They won't fit in
the car because they are group 29. I can only fit the 2 extra in the back.
Then, it is overloaded. They have 80 AH flooded, $63 / ea. I don't know
how well thy will hold up. Warrenty on 80 AH is 12 months, 18 months on 120
AH, so I went with 120 AH.
>
> My whole throry is that the batts have pleanty of energy still in them,
I just can't get it out of them because unless they are hot off the charger,
my performance is very bad. The aux pack / inverter / charger just keept
the SOC higher that's all.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Have a burning question? Go to Yahoo! Answers and get answers from real
people who know.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
is this a racecar?
do you really need a 9" motor?
--- Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jody,
> You don't say what model year your Metro is, but
> when I asked this
> same question on the list a couple of years ago
> concerning a 1992 Geo
> Metro, I received the following response:
>
> If you can find an '89-'94 Suzuki Swift in a
> junkyard that has the 4
> cylinder engine (SOHC or DOHC), you could get the
> motor & tranny mounts
> and the halfshafts from that, and using them would
> be a "bolt in"
> solution that would shift the tranny a couple of
> inches(?) towards the
> left side of the car. I'm not positive it would give
> enough room for an
> ADC 9" (it might), but it certainly would give
> enough room for an 8" in
> a '92 Metro without right fender well mods.
> An added benefit would be that I think the
> halfshafts on the 4 cylinder
> cars are beefier than those on the 3-cyl cars. (The
> end splines are the
> same though, so fit to the tranny and hubs is not an
> issue.)
> cheers,
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G wrote:
> > Hello Everyone,
> >
> > I was wondering, has anyone ever put a full size
> netgain 9" into
> > a Geo Metro? I know an Impulse will fit but if I
> was willing to alter
> > the framerail on that side would the 9" regular
> motor fit?
> >
> >
> > Jody
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Have a burning question?
Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Jim,
Didn't want to highjack your "Motor Mod" thread so I created this one for "Race
Preps". Two things, I wanna have two WarP9's
droped by your shop for banding and a little extra love before I throw them
into the Pinto. Any chance you would post a price on
what an EV racer could expect to pay you for "Race Prep Package", on a new 9"
motor of course :-)
The second thing I wanted to ask about was coupling two WarP9's together. I
don't see that Warfield (or Netgain) is producing a
motor with the same size CE shaft as on the DE. I'm leary about coupling them
in series (mechanically) because of the smaller
input shaft on the "wheel dog" (dog sledding term for the dog in the back of
the lineup). So in light of that I'm looking into
some of the parallel setups like Otmar's and I sure would like to see inside
John Bisby's parallel unit down in Perth. Do you
know of anyone else with a dual set up to a drive shaft that would be worth
building?
Mike,
Anchorage.
p.s. got a kid here with a '71 Super Beetle that would like to know if you have
any surplus motors you could sell. No extra love
needed, maybe just like a first date or somthing ;-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Group,
I am seriously considering buying 11 PowerCheq battery equalizer modules for
my pack of 12, 12 Volt Lead Acid Batteries. I have an on-board Zivan NG-3
Charger. Is there any known challenge to running this 3 step charger with the
Powercheq modules on the batteries? Will I get any error indication on the
charger?
I have to do something for equalization. I have three batteries getting full
before the others. Don't want to just "Cook" those three while the others
fill up.
Thanks!
David
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Most of us on the list get pretty frustrated. We all
want to pull decent current for long distances, pay as
little as possible, and have a computer take care of
making sure each battery gets the right amount of
juice for the longest life.
My vote is for flooded, for right now.
Cost.
Ease of maintenance/charging.
I wish you luck with your decision, and I commiserate
with you.
All the best,
--- Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So, I need a new pack. I figured that anyway. The
> ones I was using were take outs from a friend's EV,
> and they were pretty bad when I go them.
>
> Still trying to make the right decision for the
> Festiva EV, and I need to keep the voltage between
> 96 and 120 and need about a 4kW-hr pack minimum.
>
> Option #1 -
> 8 x 12 set of Optimas. I can get the yellow tops
> at the Sams Club for $165 / ea. $1320*1.07(tax) =
> $1412. They are 50 AH, and have a very decent
> warranty. Something like 8 years. But, it sounds
> like I have to have regulators on them, or I'll
> toast them. Will Lee's regulators do, or do I have
> to get a set of balancers. If I need balancers, the
> price is probably out of my range (considering it
> will give me only about 10 mile range)
>
> Option #2 -
> 8 x 12 V set of deep cycle, trolling, starting
> marine batteries. This is what I bought one of to
> test. I'm talking about the MAXX-29 from Walmart
> made by Johnson Controls. It has an 18 month
> warranty and is $65 / ea. With tax, that's $556.
> But, they won't fit in the car unless I do some
> serious mods to the battery boxes (which were made
> for 15 golf cart or Group 24 size).
>
> Option #3-
> 9 x 12 V set of similar quality batts as option
> #2, but rated only 80 AH each. I can fit in 9 no
> problem, and my charger (BC-20) goes up to 108 V.
> No regulators needed. The batteries have a 1 year
> warranty. I fear they will last 6 months and I'll
> just be out a couple hundred dollars.
>
> Option #4-
> Flooded lead golf cart batts. I'd need 8 V to get
> the voltage. My car originally had 13 of these, but
> it was a lead sled and only went 20 miles with very
> poor performance. With the 550 A controller, it
> would be better than 400 A, but I just have bad
> feelings about these. Trojans are too expensive.
> That leaves me with good old Exide which I have
> heard nothing but bad stuff about. I didn't have
> too much luch with US2200 that I put in my Jet 007
> in 2004.
>
> Option #5 and up ...
>
> I even considered Li Ion. What would 8 Valance
> cost? It would give me everything I ever wanted in
> an EV, but severely break my budget.
>
> Then, there are the DeWalt packs made of A123. I
> only need about a 4 kW-hr pack. Could one be
> fabricated by buying these off e-bay at $100 / ea.
> I think they typically for for about $100 / 36 V
> pack. I figure about $2000 to build a pack, but
> what about a management system?
>
> Finally, there is NiMH. And a lot of them. Get a
> lot of Sub C (best cost per Watt-hr because of high
> volume) cells 1.2 V / 2.7 Ah each. 80 in series = 1
> string of 96 V = 259 Watt-hr / ea string. Do that
> 15 times. That's 1200 cells. Thats about $1350
> delivered and time to weld it up (about 4-6 hours).
> Put a 25 A automotive relay on each string along
> with a 25 A fuse. Charge each string seperate with
> relays open. Discharge in parallel. One bad cell,
> and the fuse on that string will blow. Then, you
> get the chore of finding the bad cell in the string
> of 80. I started doing this 2 years ago, and built
> a 36 in series x 5 in parallel. Each one was fused.
> Anyway, it really didn't work because I didn't have
> enough cells.
>
> Based on all that, I have no idea what a good
> solution is. So, I just bought my secondary battery
> pack (yesterday) and plan to use the inverter to
> keep charging my current pack when it goes dead
> every 4 miles. It'll probably last a few months
> like this. Then, I have no idea what I am going to
> do.
>
> I'm wiulling to spend some good money on a pack,
> but I want results for my money. I want something
> that has the performance I have right now, and can
> do at least 15 miles. If I could get 30-50 miles,
> I'd be willing to pay for it, within reason.
>
> I'm open to suggestions.
>
> Steve
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo!
> Answers. Try it now.
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
--- End Message ---
