EV Digest 6511
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Portland Roadster Show
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Clarification on my high and low voltage on the Festiva
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: PFC 20 thermal compensation and Should I replace 2 batteries
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Processor Lockup Failsafe
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Motor shafts (was: Race Preps for DC Motors)
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Better Data Logging Options?
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Motor mods
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Race Preps for DC Motors
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Measuring Cable Resistance
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: My next EV project, or Paul goes Datsun
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Motor mods
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Battery Woes- reverse compensation?
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Measuring Cable Resistance
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Measuring Cable Resistance
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: electric power newbie
by "garyH" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) a complete list of early patents and inventors from the 1880's when
the electric wheel hub motor was first invented.
by Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) A great breakdown of the cost and efficiencies of an electric wheel
hub bus vs diesel vs diesel/electric wheel hub hybrid bus.
by Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Motor mods (by Mini Me, ROTFLMAO)
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Now, I am more confused about EV quality batteries than I have ever
been in the last 10 years
by Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: My next EV project, or Paul goes Datsun
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Cafe' Scientifique goes Cafe' Electrifique
by Joseph Lado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Better Data Logging Options?
by "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Measuring Cable Resistance
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Better Data Logging Options?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, all,
At 9 a.m. this morning I set off for the Portland Roadster Show. Three hours
later, I arrived at the Expo Center in Portland, only to learn that the
Roadster Show was at the Convention Center. (MIsinformation strikes again.)
Eventually I met up with John and Tim and spent some time at the Convention
Center babbling with the Public. Had it not been for the excellent
presentation of the White Zombie, including a 52" plasma screen continuously
playing smokeshows and several different gas cars being thoroughly trounced by
an electric 1200 Datsun, I'm not sure the show would have been worth a
three-hour drive. It was the same old rehash of what the gas-guzzling crowd
has been doing for the last 50 years.
The White Zombie presentation made a refreshing change. I enjoyed standing
back watching the "EV grins", as people experienced for the first time the raw
electric torque and the smokeshows electric cars can produce. These people
were hardened gas devotees, most of whom had no idea an electric car could
stomp all over their fancy V8's.
This year, 2007, should be an exciting year for electric vehicles in general as
well as the electric drag racing scene. I'm looking forward to seeing what
develops.
- Father Time
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
EarthLink Revolves Around You.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve,
I suggest that you check individual battery voltages while loaded,
immediately after a trip (it may be enough to keep the key on and
the controller running - I have done load-tests by depressing the
parking brake and giving a bit throttle for a short period, but
the best way is to make or buy a 12V load tester (around 50 to 100A)
and test each battery individually.
I think you will find some bad batteries and several may still be good,
in that case you can replace the bad ones.
If they all test bad, you need a new pack.
I have comparable experience when I over-discharged some of my
batteries and they started dropping to 10 and even 8V after just a
bit of discharge - I replaced the bad ones and the pack is fine now.
Please see the other discussion on how and when to test batteries.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Steve Powers
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 8:32 AM
To: ev
Subject: Clarification on my high and low voltage on the Festiva
96 V pack of AGM.
I fully charge and get about 105 V. That is OK.
I run it until is starts slowing down, poor performance. I measure the
pack (not under load) after I stop, and it is around 100 V. Then, it
bounces back to about 101 V after a few hours. Still, the perofrmance is
very bad, and I can't drive it in that state.
As for the inverter / charger plan, I have the parts, but not yet
installed.
Why not just 8 of the 120 Ah 12 V batts for $65 ea? They won't fit in the
car because they are group 29. I can only fit the 2 extra in the back.
Then, it is overloaded. They have 80 AH flooded, $63 / ea. I don't know
how well thy will hold up. Warrenty on 80 AH is 12 months, 18 months on 120
AH, so I went with 120 AH.
My whole throry is that the batts have pleanty of energy still in them, I
just can't get it out of them because unless they are hot off the charger,
my performance is very bad. The aux pack / inverter / charger just keept
the SOC higher that's all.
Steve
---------------------------------
Have a burning question? Go to Yahoo! Answers and get answers from real
people who know.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No, the regs adjust themselves because they are temp compensated.
The charger voltage is set through the small hole next to the Regbus
connector. The voltage scaling is very close to 20 volts per turn.
You only need to adjust the charger to your winter voltage. The regs will
hold the voltage down during the summer (unless the Regbus becomes
unconnected.)
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 5:20 AM
Subject: Re: PFC 20 thermal compensation and Should I replace 2 batteries
>
>
> Everyone: I have regs, I have had regs since day 1.
>
> So How the heck do I change charge voltage??? The regs control the
> charge voltage per battery, NOT THE CHARGER (but it can limit it to less
> than the regs) am I expected to mess with each reg's voltage adjustment
> twice a year?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Note that RPM monitoring is good to avoid over-revving and 'sploding a
motor.
You could make a difference between the official redline, where you'd want
to
turn a warning on for the driver (Idiot engine light or so) and possibly
kill
throttle input, and a (higher) level where you drop contactors, killing the
entire car's HV power.
As long as brakes and possible regen braking are not affected by this safety
then you are OK, but your solution of unannounced dropping contactor can
lead to sudden loss of control in a quick long descent, if any of the
systems
depends on the presence of HV.
Just a thought,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jack Murray
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 10:06 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Processor Lockup Failsafe
I use MSP430 processors, and they (many most? others) have what is called
watchdog timer. It can be configured to reboot the processor if the
watchdog doesn't get reset periodically by the software.
Of course if the processor itself burns up it won't be rebooting, but you
can do the circuit such that passive components will have the normal state
OFF, so the MPU must run to turn them on. There are also external
supervisor chips you can use to do monitoring and turn on/off things when
fail conditions occur. I find it easier to just us another MPU.
This is what I have made for a "pre-charge" controller, before it turns on
the main contactor it turns on the pre-charge and makes sure the current
stops flowing before allowing the main to turn on. It also monitors the RPM
and will shut off the main contactor if it goes too high. And checks the
throttle and turns off the contactor if the throttle is closed and battery
current is still flowing.
And it monitors the current drain to give a fuel-gauge output.
Jack
Bill Dennis wrote:
> If you're using a microprocessor to control charging, what's a good way
> to have the system fail to a safe state, should the processor freeze
> up--for example, turn off the charger. One possibility that came to
> mind was some type of circuit or chip that expects its input to be
> flip-flopped every few seconds, and if it isn't, opens a relay. Is
> there a simple circuit or chip that already does this? Or is there a
> better way?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think that you use stronger shaft material and keep the same size
shaft. You just need to pay.
I'm not sure what standard motor shafts are made out of, but judging
from the ease of cutting and drilling, they aren't the very strongest
possible alloy.
You could use 4340 chrome-moly steel. It is commonly available and
has a tensile strength of 160,000 psi. If you wanted to go exotic,
you could use maraging steel. You can machine it like stainless in
its annealed state. Then you heat treat it (just bake it) and its
tensile strength goes up over 350,000 psi (350 alloy.)
It isn't cheap, of course:
http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?id=912&step=2
Notice that 1 inch shaft of 350 alloy maraging steel costs about $170
per foot. (One inch 4340 steel is about $11 per foot.)
You would just need to replace the shaft in the "drive end"
motor. Don't get them mixed up later, however. :-)
Bill Dube'
Keith at Dutchmans and I go around on this a lot. He
always wants to put in a bigger shaft diameter but I'm
always telling him that's all I can fit in, lmao!
. I believe
more inline twins would be used if the shaft issue
wasn't there. Comparing Waylands twin motor to Otmars
twin set up shows just how many ways there is to skin
a cat.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you want the hands down most reliable standalone data logger check out
Campbell Scientific http://www.campbellsci.com/index.cfm Years ago I used the
CR10X and CR500 and CR510 for remote microwave site power systems. These
dataloggers are used from Antarctic research facilities to high performance
dragsters. I haven't touched these in several years (although I have an older
model in my garage) and I see they have some newer offerings. So take a look.
You can call them for pricing. Expect that it'll be a little on the expensive
side. If you were going to build a data logger though, these would be the ones
to emulate.
Another option that a co-worker built to monitor battery temps at some of our
remote earth stations are the RabbitCore boards.
http://www.rabbitsemiconductor.com/products/kits/ He used the BL2100 SmartCat.
He needed an ehternet interface to hook these to our M&C network and it
performs nicely and even has its own onboard server for displaying results.
You'd just have to pick the most appropriate board and program it yourself. I
spec'd the Campbell Scientific and he Spec'd a RabbitCore dev board. His
design came in cheaper but he had to build code, boxes and additional sensor
interfaces. They do however have several development packages and application
packages available. Cheaper than Campbell Sci. but still gonna cost you some.
I would love to have the time to play with some of these.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Lee Hart
> Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 6:54 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Better Data Logging Options?
>
>
> Mike Chancey wrote:
> >> I have been data logging my charge/discharge cycles using
> >> the RS-232 port on my E-meter and an old P75 laptop.
> >> My question is, is there a more flexible alternative?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 10:46 AM 4/03/07 -0800, Jim wrote:
> >Hey James, all
> >I like what you did with the new lead setup but
> they
> >appear pretty thick and I'm wondering if you've
> >checked to see they'll fit between the riser yet??
>
> And there lies the voice of experience (could have
> given me a 'heads up' on
> the chance of that!) - the bars before being
> insulated cleared, but I think
> (in hindsight) they were moving a bit to find a
> "home" between the various
> field connections. Once the insulation went on there
> was no room at the inn.
Hey Man
Sorry I wasn't there for you earlier than 5AM my time.
I don't recall any pics on that first email either,
not to mention I'm not worth a hoot without my morning
coffee. I was chicken pecking fast as I could boss
hoping I'd catch you before you hacked something up
and blame me for it 8^P I'll try harder to be at your
becken call but you have to allow me time to respond,
LMAO!
>
> Plan 'b' - rather than spend a lot of time making
> convoluted leads that
> will clear I'm just going to make two more 'L'
> pieces (the parts attached
> to the terminals), two more insulators and so have
> four studs out the back,
> with crossover bars on the outside. Hopefully the
> crossover bars are long
> enough to be used on the outside, if not then cables
> will have to do.
Now see here, you've probably hacked everything up
already before I can even offer any ideas. So now I'm
stuck wondering rether or not to add thoughts here or
just wait for your next post 8^o
I guess thats what you get for living today tomorrow,
bunch of time zone wierdos LMAO!
> >I ask cause I can see that the CE bearing is locked
> >into the plate still (making it harder for a test
> >fit). I also ask because in doing Bill Dube's
> first
> >CE plate, the lead hit the coils (I didn't check)
> and
> >I had to redo the whole thing, really ticked me
> off,
> >lol.
>
> And so came the experience... that I now have, too!
I thought I saw a couple new bumps on your head, hehe.
Kind of lessons not taught in books. One of the
things that take me so long are all the dry fits. The
locked in bearing was a dead give away that you hadn't
(at least I doubted) checked the distance.
To be honest it was during my second look that I
caught it, at which point, I so dutifully reported my
findings.
> The insulating all went so well, a piece of Nomex
> wrapped around the
> 'under' lead where it passes the brush holder, with
> a curved tail back to
> where the bars seperated. Wrapped in Fusa-Fab then
> the pair wrapped
> together... AAARRGHHH when it wouldn't assemble. It
> looked neatly as good
> as a Hi-Torque job :^)
So what you're saying is you've killed it before I
could get back to you, LMAO!
Here's hoping I dont have a new group of pics to view
at 5AM tomorrow 8^P I've been laughing so hard my
wife just came in to ask me whats so funny, I think
you have to be a motor guy to get it. People think,
"but there's just one moving part" hehe.
Let me know if I can heckel you I mean help you
further...
Hopefully you have a wiser day tomorrow 8^o
Isn't that "my" two days from now?? what ever it is I
guess I'll see you then 8^)
I think I'm gonna start calling James: Mini Me, LMAO!
My little evil down under motor imposter.
Thats so dang funny I can't stop laughing!!
Dress him up in a little Hi-Torque motor wear suit 8^o
I got to get away from this email
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need Mail bonding?
Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Jim Husted wrote:
>
> ...I would have to say that this reminds me a
> little of a dream I had last night... Where I was on
> stage, in the spotlight, ...
premonitions like that'll get you in the same boat as Otmar, needing help in
the shop, he he ;-)
Didn't mean to turn the spotlight on, just wanted to get you thinking about
getting hands on 2 brand new Warp9's.
> I will say upfront that a Dutchman shaft isn't cheap
> but Wayland's inability to break his yet says a lot
> 8^)
Maybe Dutchman oughtta get ahold of Netgain about providing Warfield some race
prep'd shafts, eh?
> Matt Graham cracked his Warp 9 shafts, but it's the
> rear output shaft that goes when connecting motors
> inline. Waylands motor was the same way. It wasn't
> the small coupled end but that final drive that has
> issues.
I just hit the NetGain Technologies page and see they revamped it. I also noted
they have their TransWarP9 listed as well. Will
having a 1.370", 32-tooth involute spline on the output help a motor in the
"wheel dog" position? It seems they are also making
the TransWarP9 CE cshaft the same 1.125" as the output of the WarP9. Do you
think this'll help the inline coupled survivability
of this motors shaft? Man, if they could make the input a female spline you
could real easily couple two of the TransWarP's
together. Sled dogs will stack up that way too if you're not careful :-O
>
> Getting back to your in-line question, I really lean
> toward the in-line motor setup...
Me too, it seems a waste of a usefull amount of energy running belts, gears and
or chains. Not to mention the complexity of
building the coupling unit. I'm starting to like the looks of this TransWarP9
unit....question now would be 2 TransWarP's or 1
TransWarP and a regular WarP?
>
> I'll end this little novel with this.
Thanks for the rather thorough response ;-)
> Hey Mike! you intrested in throwing a slightly
> scratched two year old 13" Yellow Beast Allis Chalmers
> motor into that Pinto, hehehe!
>
If someone could make the case to me that it would be faster than the two
WarP9's I'd consider it. I'm not sure the the RPM
limitation could be overcome by the extra up front torque. Plus I'd totally
kill any stock 9" rearend housing I put in the thing.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How exactly does one measure the resistance of battery cables? It is too
small of an amount to measure with my common multimeter.
Bruce
Cor van de Water wrote:
> you need to add the resistance of your cabling.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the pics! Love the fuel filter. ;-)
The overall styling brings back memories of my '65 Opel Kadett. I sometimes
wish I'd kept it as it would have made an interesting conversion -
surprising amount of room for batteries, sturdy, decently if not
spectacularly agile, and remarkably light - about 1500lb.
If I were doing a car like that today, I might try to take advantage of the
chair-height seats by putting the charger and controller under the seats (on
my Kadett, the entire seat tipped forward, not just the backrest). I'd put
the motor in the driveshaft tunnel if I could, moving the trans back a bit.
That probably would mean going clutchless.
One of the limitations of this vintage of subcompacts is their minimal
braking capacity. This might suggest an AC drive, or a sep-ex DC with
regen.
Batteries could fill up the underhood area, line the bottom of the rear
cargo area, and maybe even sit under the back seat. If the unibody's
unrusted it's likely to do fine as these guys were overbuilt (unlike today,
no computer aided design to make them just-strong-enough). Provided you can
beef up the suspension to handle the weight, you should be able to get 40+%
of your weight in lead on this one for excellent range.
The only downsides I can think of would be the problems getting parts, which
would limit its utility as a daily driver, and its lack of crashworthiness.
Get some good 4-point seat belts.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It looked nearly as good as a Hi-Torque job :^)
You know I've just barely carved out a name for myself
and already the hacks are posting over inflated
results concerning cheaply made copies.
In response to this post I had to caution people to
except no subsitute 8^P
nearly as good, phew. I wanna see pictures buddy 8^o
I must be tired, I've been tickling myself about this
thread for an hour now, so hard my face hurts (sorry
James). Amy says I have to go now.
Sorry also to those who lack my sick humor.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nawaz -
I was hoping that you could set the record straight for us on this issue of
US Batteries not lasting a long life unless you charge them with a higher
finish voltage.
Many of us are using non-adjustable chargers. Someone mentioned that in the
EV Photo Album the Zivan was the most popular charger used . If we can't
adjust the charging, will we get less life from US Batteries than from
Trojans?
Bruce
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nawaz Qureshi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Phil Marino'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 8:12 AM
Subject: RE: Battery Woes- reverse compensation?
> Phil Is right.
> I directly quote our web site recommendation which I wrote:
>
> "* Charge Time = 10 Hours. Battery temperature adjustment: reduce the
> voltage by 0.028 Volts per Cell for every 10°F above 80°F, increase by the
> same amount for temperatures below 80°F."
>
> It cannot be any more clear that you reduce (subtract) the Voltage at
higher
> temperatures......
>
> Sincerely
> Nawaz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> How exactly does one measure the resistance of battery cables? It
is too
> small of an amount to measure with my common multimeter.
>
I don't know how to do it with a basic VOM, but it's done under load,
measuring voltage drop at a set amperage.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The "four point" or "Kelvin" method:
- run a known current through the cable (preferably from lug to lug, so you
include contact resistance between cable and lugs). This is easiest with a
lab supply (or another way) to generate a constant and known current
(You could use your battery tester to create a 10A or 100A current using one
battery, for example)
- then with a digital voltmeter set to milliVolt (or lower) range, you can
measure parts of milliOhms, as a 10A current will create 10mV drop in a
1milliOhm cable. If your meter has 0.1 mV steps, you measure increments of
10 microOhm at 10A.
Note: if you need to measure real small resistance, you can use higher
current: 100A will create 0.1 mV for every microOhm.
Make sure you do not measure at the clamps that you use to inject the
current, the name "four point" comes from the four contact areas: two used
to inject the current, two others to measure resistance.
If you suspect a bad lug crimp is giving you high resistance, you can follow
the cable with your DVM (Digital Volt Meter) to see where the voltage is
largest: between first lug and start of cable, between start and end of
cable, between end of cable and second lug. This way it is easy to
trouble-shoot problems in cables.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bruce
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 9:45 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Measuring Cable Resistance
How exactly does one measure the resistance of battery cables? It is too
small of an amount to measure with my common multimeter.
Bruce
Cor van de Water wrote:
> you need to add the resistance of your cabling.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Lee for your reply,the motor is 6 inches diameter and weighs 44
lbs..The nameplate has the manufacturers serial no. which I've searched the
web for and the fact it operates on 24 V systems and not much else.The
application is for a boat which I realize isn't a common application for
this forum ,but its basically the same sysyem up to the motor output shaft
,and I have already been directed to the electric boat sites which are great
for pretty pictures but little else.The motor does have a intake for
external fan but being a starter generator I am a little worried that
continuous use as a motor may not be something it is capable of doing. I am
not well versed on controllers but my understanding is that they switch off
and on to reduce voltage to motor as required.What happens to a motor that
is too powerful for its application and is always being used at say 60%
load. If this were a 100V motor would it be continuously running on 60V and
would this damage the motor ...Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: electric power newbie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm starting to build a small electric propulsion system . I
have a 24V Westinghouse aircraft starter-generator which were sold
by Princess Auto of Winnipeg at one time. It is 8 pole series
wound, around 3 Kw I believe, so should be ample power for my
application. I haven't been able to get any specs on this machine
so I'm not sure if its rated for continuous use or not. Does
anyone have any info for this motor?
You'll have to provide more information for us to be able to tell what you
have. What does the nameplate on it say? What is its size and weight?
3kw is only about 3 horsepower; that's not much. OK for a golf cart or
small motorcycle, but not a car.
Most of these units are designed for continuous duty at high rpm, with a
very strong airflow for cooling.
I'm also not sure if drive will slow the motor down to the 900 or so
RPM it would like to run at. Maybe the controller will take care of this.
A controller can make it run slower, but you also decrease power. If it
produces 3kw at full speed, it will only produce 1.5kw at half speed, etc.
Is it possible to reverse this motor?
Yes, but they usually require some disassembly and internal wiring
changes.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.6/709 - Release Date: 3/3/2007
8:12 AM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have made many additions to the history of the wheel hub motor in
wikipedia which can be seen here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:A-Hrafn/Wheel_motor
I created the complete list of early patents and inventors from the
1880's when the electric wheel hub motor was first invented in the
HISTORY section of the article.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A great breakdown of the cost and efficiencies of an electric wheel hub
bus vs diesel vs diesel/electric wheel hub hybrid bus.
http://www.e-traction.com/operational_efficiency.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Jim, lay off the coffee man. Else you're going to turn into a comedian
working for tips ;-P (although you can't drink coffe
all day unless you start at 5 am)
I still can't keep a straight face. I can't believe I can still type. My wife
thinks this is so special, she never see's me
crying. he he.
> Jim Husted wrote (among other things)
>
> I think I'm gonna start calling James: Mini Me, LMAO!
> My little evil down under motor imposter.
> Thats so dang funny I can't stop laughing!!
> Dress him up in a little Hi-Torque motor wear suit 8^o
>
> I got to get away from this email
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 05/03/2007, at 6:11 AM, Steve Powers wrote:
So, I need a new pack. I figured that anyway. The ones I was
using were take outs from a friend's EV, and they were pretty bad
when I go them.
Still trying to make the right decision for the Festiva EV, and I
need to keep the voltage between 96 and 120 and need about a 4kW-hr
pack minimum.
Option #1 - <snip> Option #4-
So, option 1-4 were all lead acid.. boring. (But seriously, the more
of us who adopt lithium now, the cheaper & better it will get!)
Option #5 and up ...
I even considered Li Ion. What would 8 Valance cost? It would
give me everything I ever wanted in an EV, but severely break my
budget.
Valence Saphions work out to about $1.65/Wh, though that's including
nice built-in BMS. Here's the price list they sent me earlier this
year FYI:
U1-12RTL: $600 per unit
U1-12RT, U1-12XP: $860 per unit
U24-12RT, U24-12XP: $2030 per unit
U27-12RT, U27-12XP: $2550 per unit
UEV-18XP: $1935 per unit
Then, there are the DeWalt packs made of A123. I only need about
a 4 kW-hr pack. Could one be fabricated by buying these off e-bay
at $100 / ea. I think they typically for for about $100 / 36 V
pack. I figure about $2000 to build a pack, but what about a
management system?
A123 lithiums end up being about $1.30/Wh if you buy those Dewalt
packs. There are a few commercial BMSs available e.g:
http://www.reapsystems.co.uk/index.php?
option=com_content&task=view&id=23&Itemid=36
http://www.metricmind.com/bms.htm
http://www.ime-actia.de/web_onboard/steuergeraete/bms.htm
Finally, there is NiMH. And a lot of them. Get a lot of Sub C
(best cost per Watt-hr because of high volume) cells 1.2 V / 2.7 Ah
each. 80 in series = 1 string of 96 V = 259 Watt-hr / ea string.
Do that 15 times. That's 1200 cells. Thats about $1350 delivered
and time to weld it up (about 4-6 hours). Put a 25 A automotive
relay on each string along with a 25 A fuse. Charge each string
seperate with relays open. Discharge in parallel. One bad cell,
and the fuse on that string will blow. Then, you get the chore of
finding the bad cell in the string of 80. I started doing this 2
years ago, and built a 36 in series x 5 in parallel. Each one was
fused. Anyway, it really didn't work because I didn't have enough
cells.
I was dead keen on NiMHs for a while, since you can get them around
$0.40/Wh for decent cells, but there are a whole lot of problems
running a few thousand cells in a large series & parallel array. From
all I've seen, Lithium does appear to be the better option, and
considering the projected lifespan of the new Lithium Iron Phosphate
type cells, they might actually be the most economical of all. (Time
will tell..)
Based on all that, I have no idea what a good solution is. So, I
just bought my secondary battery pack (yesterday) and plan to use
the inverter to keep charging my current pack when it goes dead
every 4 miles. It'll probably last a few months like this. Then,
I have no idea what I am going to do.
Unless you're extremely rich (and too lazy to organise your own BMS),
I don't think the Valence are worth the money. And unless you need
bucketloads of power, it's hard to justify the cost of the A123s.
Check out ThunderSky, Kokam and GAIA brands for more affordable
lithiums - as something $0.55/Wh and over 100Wh/kg, which is ~5x the
energy density of lead acid!
My 2c for you :)
-Ian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Paul and All,
You have a couple things going for you. The
engine, other ICE weight was fairly high in these so it will
drop a fair amount when you take them out.
For tires, the 14" Prius/Insight tires are
about the same dia, 22.5" so with some $49 mags from Pep
Boys with universal bolt patterns give you a combined
tire/rim weight of just 25 lbs each with excellent LRR and
saving a few more pounds.
I'd go with twin motors and axe the trans for
more battery room, eff. Either mount them where the trans
was or on the rear end, belted.
Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: My next EV project, or Paul goes Datsun
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 17:10:49 -0800
>After a successful search for just the right donor car I
>have my next EV project, a 1966 Datsun 411 wagon. I had a
>preference for a early small sedan, but its not often you
>get a chance to buy a 41 year old car with only 92,000
>miles on it. I'm hoping to hear your ideas on how to help
>it meet my needs. I put up a quickie page with links to
>some photos of it at:
>
><http://paul-g.home.comcast.net/next.htm>.
>
>My goal is to build a vehicle for my commute and local
>errands. My commute is short, around 8 miles round trip
>with about 1/2 of it freeway miles (and yes, I expect to
>keep up.)
>
>What I have in mind is a small pack of AGMs and a suitable
>motor feeding the stock 4 speed gearbox (its in great
>shape.) This old car is a bit heavy, at around 2100 lb. It
>is also not the greatest on battery room. The under hood
>area is about 24 inches by 24 inches and naturally not all
>of it is available for batteries (mostly the master
>cylinder cuts into it a little.) In the back, where the
>spare tire sits now with the fuel tank underneath, I can
>create a space around 29 inches by 24 inches and keep the
>stock load floor in place. Front and rear, depth is not an
>issue. I'm targeting a pack voltage between 120 and 156
>volts. Initially I was thinking about using group 31 AGMs,
>but shape of the available space hints that group 34 AGMs
>(such as the standard YT Optima or Exide Orbital battery)
>may fit better. I'm open to ideas.
>
>I want to get a new set of wheels and tires on it before I
>tear out the ICE. Right now its running on 3 P165/80R13
>tires (complete with cracking side walls) and an old
>5.60-13 bias-ply whitewall tire on the left front corner
>(that made for some "interesting" handling on the
>freeway.) Wheel selection is somewhat limited but the bolt
>pattern and required offset is the same as a Geo Metro (4
>lug on a 4.5 inch pattern, about +38 offset.) My options
>are either 13 inch with the same P-metric tire size or 14
>inch with either P175/70R14 or P185/65R15. Anything larger
>than that could present some rear tire fit issues (the
>rear fender wells are designed to maximize the back seat.)
>Ideas here to minimize wheel weight and tire rolling
>resistance are welcome (but
> >$200 each Panasport wheels are a bit rich for me.)
>
>Enough of me talking. Please check it out and give me your
>ideas!
>
>Paul "neon" G.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just a reminder to the people in the Arlington, Virginia and
Washington, DC area that the National Science Foundation is having its
Cafe' Scientifique focusing on electric vehicles this month. The Cafe'
is being held on Tuesday from 6 to 9pm at NSF head quarters at 4201
Wilson Boulevard, Arlington, Virginia 22230, Ballston Mall metro. There
will be a bunch of a plug-in Prius from Hymotion, a RAV4 EV, two home
built behicles and the AZTEC, MIT's enterent in the 1994 Tour de Sol.
Dave Goldstein and Charlie Garlow will be the guests of honor. Thank
you.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Could Labview be used as a BMS for lithium cells?
terveisin,
Osmo
Mark Brueggemann kirjoitti 5.3.2007 kello 5.19:
--- Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I have been data logging my charge/discharge cycles using
the RS-232 port on my E-meter and an old P75 laptop.
..
My question is, is there a more flexible alternative?
Flexible? Yes. But not on a P75. But in terms of flexibility
you could do a lot of data manipulation with LabView. It's
a real resource pig, but for what you're trying to do you could
have a really slick app running in no time. All programming
is done via GUI, just connect the dots and it can do just
about anything you can think of. It is my future intent to put a
mobile PC in the EV running LabView to do just what you describe,
and more, since it can also do data acquisition, crunch data and
discrete analog/digital I/O. They have an FPGA based I/O card
that is fast enough to do real time motor control if you want
to take it that far.
http://www.ni.com
Mark "EV Basher" Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, they make special meters for measuring resistance that is less than
1 ohm.
Or you can pass a known current through it and measure the voltage drop,
then use Ohm's Law to calculate the resistance.
> How exactly does one measure the resistance of battery cables? It is too
> small of an amount to measure with my common multimeter.
>
> Bruce
>
> Cor van de Water wrote:
>> you need to add the resistance of your cabling.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
But Lee, where's the GUI? :-)
> Mike Chancey wrote:
>>> I have been data logging my charge/discharge cycles using
>>> the RS-232 port on my E-meter and an old P75 laptop.
>>> My question is, is there a more flexible alternative?
>
> From: Mark Brueggemann
>>Flexible? Yes. But not on a P75.
>
> Oh, for Pete's sake... my E-meter data logger BASIC program started life
> on a Radio Shack model 100 laptop, which ran at the blazing speed of 2 MHz
> (not GHz) and had all of 32k bytes (not megabytes) of memory. I *had* to
> have the program compress the data, because there was no place to store
> it.
>
> The program is so short (under 7K bytes) that I can post it here, without
> danger of an excessively large email message. Note that it still has line
> numbers from the "old days", but runs with Microsoft QuickBASIC. Watch out
> for the long lines; be sure your email program doesn't break them up!
> --
> 10 REM Cruising Equipment E-Meter Serial Data Logger
> 20 REM by Lee A. Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 5/4/2005
> 30 REM
> 35 REM For use with 12v battery and 50amp 50mv shunt.
> 36 REM
> 40 REM Initialization. Averages data over 2 sec if test
> 45 REM duration = 4 minutes, 24 sec if duration = 10 hours, etc.
> 46 REM
> 47 ahmax = 4: ahstep = -2: ahmin = ahmax + (10 * ahstep): REM set min/max
> ah
> 48 vmin = 10: vstep = .6: vmax = vmin + (10 * vstep): REM set min/max
> volts
> 49 amin = 0: astep = 3: amax = amin + (10 * astep): REM set min/max amps
> 50 CLS
> 55 cflag = 0: REM cflag=1 if charging to 14.4v, =0 if discharging to 10.5v
> 60 INPUT "Test Description? ", comment$
> 70 PRINT : INPUT "Test Duration in hours? ", duration
> 80 duration = duration * 3600: IF duration < 240 THEN duration = 240
> 90 average% = 5: REM average samples to improve resolution
> 100 REM
> 110 REM If outputting to disk, open file. Data is comma delimited.
> 120 REM Line 1 is column headings, date, and comment$ string.
> 130 REM Lines 2-58 are time, averaged volts, amphours, averaged
> amps.
> 140 PRINT
> 145 ON ERROR GOTO 175
> 150 FILES "*.DAT"
> 155 INPUT "Output to disk [ENTER for no, or C:\PATH\FILENAME.DAT for yes]?
> ", filename$
> 160 IF LEN(filename$) = 0 GOTO 230
> 170 OPEN filename$ FOR INPUT AS #2
> 172 INPUT "That file already exists. Append data to it [y/n]? ", a$
> 174 CLOSE #2: IF a$ = "y" OR a$ = "Y" THEN OPEN filename$ FOR APPEND AS
> #2: GOTO 180 ELSE GOTO 150
> 175 OPEN filename$ FOR OUTPUT AS #2
> 180 PRINT #2, ";Time,Volts,AmpHrs,Amps, "; DATE$; ", "; comment$
> 190 REM
> 200 REM If printing, initialize printer for 88 lines per page (8
> lpi).
> 210 REM (If Epson FX-80 or equiv; ESC"0"=8 lpi).
> 220 REM
> 230 PRINT : INPUT "Output to printer [ENTER for no, y for yes]? ", print$
> 235 IF print$ = "Y" THEN print$ = "y"
> 240 IF print$ = "y" THEN LPRINT CHR$(27); "0"; DATE$; " "; filename$; " ";
> comment$: LPRINT
> 250 REM
> 260 REM Display (and optionally print) graph headings.
> 270 CLS
> 275 LOCATE 25, 40: PRINT "Test in progress: Press any key to abort":
> LOCATE 1, 1
> 280 PRINT DATE$; " "; filename$; " "; comment$
> 290 GOSUB 1230
> 300 COLOR 7, 1: PRINT volt$: IF print$ = "y" THEN LPRINT volt$
> 310 GOSUB 1330
> 320 PRINT amphr$: IF print$ = "y" THEN LPRINT amphr$
> 330 GOSUB 1430
> 340 PRINT amp$: IF print$ = "y" THEN LPRINT amp$
> 350 REM
> 360 REM Set up serial port to read E-meter data.
> 370 REM
> 380 OPEN "COM2: 9600,n,8,1" FOR INPUT AS #1: LINE INPUT #1, dummy$
> 390 REM
> 400 REM Main loop. Get data from E-meter.
> 410 REM
> 420 FOR i = 0 TO duration * .95
> 430 INPUT #1, time, kwhr, amp, volt, ahr, pahrs, pamps, timerem, bargraph
> 440 REM
> 450 REM Compute running averages for volts and amps, or use last
> value
> 460 REM for fast changes. Write fast changes to disk if it is
> enabled.
> 470 REM
> 475 amp = amp / 10: ahr = ahr / 10: REM for use with 50amp 50mv shunt
> 480 wflag = 0
> 490 IF ABS((volt - volts) / volt) > .1 THEN volts = volt: wflag = 1 ELSE
> volts = (volts * (average% - 1) + volt) / average%
> 500 IF ABS(amp - amps) > .5 THEN amps = amp: wflag = 1 ELSE amps = (amps *
> (average% - 1) + amp) / average%
> 510 amps = FIX(amps * 1000) / 1000
> 520 IF ABS(ahrs - ahr) > .2 THEN wflag = 1
> 525 ahrs = ahr
> 530 REM
> 540 REM Display current data, and "beep" if it is off the graph.
> 545 REM Write data to disk if voltage hits upper/lower limits.
> 550 REM
> 560 a$ = LEFT$(TIME$, 5) + " v h a | . . . .
> . . . . . |"
> 570 MID$(a$, 12 - LEN(LEFT$(STR$(volts + .005), 6))) = LEFT$(STR$(volts +
> .005), 6)
> 580 MID$(a$, 19 - LEN(LEFT$(STR$(ahrs), 5))) = LEFT$(STR$(ahrs), 5)
> 590 MID$(a$, 27 - LEN(LEFT$(STR$(amps), 6))) = LEFT$(STR$(amps), 6)
> 600 LOCATE CSRLIN, 1: COLOR 7, 1: PRINT LEFT$(a$, 27);
> 610 IF volt < vmin OR volt > vmax OR ABS(amp) > amax OR ahrs < ahmin OR
> ahrs > ahmax THEN PRINT CHR$(7);
> 614 IF cflag = 0 AND volt < (vmin + vstep) THEN cflag = 1: wflag = 1
> 616 IF cflag = 1 AND volt > (vmax - vstep) THEN cflag = 0: wflag = 1
> 618 IF wflag = 1 AND LEN(filename$) > 0 THEN GOSUB 1140
> 620 IF LEN(INKEY$) > 0 THEN i = duration
> 622 REM
> 624 REM Print and/or save data to disk if 1/80th of duration and
> they
> 626 REM are enabled. Display data if 1/20th of duration.
> 628 REM
> 630 IF i MOD (duration / 80) > 0 GOTO 860
> 640 REM
> 650 REM Initialize a line of graphical data to display or print.
> 660 REM 29th char in a$ is left limit, 79th is right limit.
> 670 REM
> 680 REM Put "h" on graph to represent amphours.
> 690 REM
> 700 hpos = 29 + (ahmax - ahrs) * (79 - 29) / (ahmax - ahmin)
> 710 IF ahrs <= ahmax AND ahrs >= ahmin THEN MID$(a$, hpos, 1) = "h"
> 720 REM
> 730 REM Put "v" on graph to represent volts.
> 740 REM
> 750 vpos = 29 + (volts - vmin) * (79 - 29) / (vmax - vmin)
> 760 IF volts >= vmin AND volts <= vmax THEN MID$(a$, vpos, 1) = "v"
> 770 REM
> 780 REM Put "a" on graph to represent amps (unsigned).
> 790 REM
> 800 apos = 29 + (ABS(amps) - amin) * (79 - 29) / (amax - amin)
> 810 IF ABS(amps) <= amax THEN MID$(a$, apos, 1) = "a"
> 820 IF i MOD (duration / 20) = 0 THEN COLOR 7, 0: PRINT RIGHT$(a$, 52); :
> LOCATE CSRLIN + 1, 1
> 830 IF print$ = "y" THEN LPRINT a$
> 840 IF wflag = 0 AND LEN(filename$) > 0 THEN GOSUB 1140
> 860 NEXT i
> 870 REM Finish; close files, restore printer to 80 char/line, 66
> lines.
> 880 REM (If Epson FX-80 or equiv; ESC"P"=10 cpi, ESC"2"=6 lpi,
> 12=FF).
> 890 REM
> 900 CLOSE #1: CLOSE #2
> 920 IF print$ = "y" THEN LPRINT CHR$(27); "2"; CHR$(12)
> 999 END
> 1100 REM
> 1110 REM Write data to disk file every 1/80th of test duration, or
> 1120 REM if there is a fast change in volts, amps, or amphours.
> 1130 REM
> 1140 PRINT #2, TIME$; ",";
> 1150 PRINT #2, LEFT$(STR$(volts + .005), 6); ",";
> 1160 PRINT #2, LEFT$(STR$(ahrs), 5); ",";
> 1170 PRINT #2, LEFT$(STR$(amps), 6): RETURN
> 1200 REM
> 1210 REM Make title line to display/print max and min voltage
> limits
> 1220 REM
> 1230 volt$ = " Volts ------------->
> "
> 1240 FOR i = 0 TO 10
> 1250 MID$(volt$, 30 + i * 5 - LEN(STR$(vmin + (vstep * i)))) = STR$(vmin +
> (vstep * i))
> 1260 NEXT
> 1270 RETURN
> 1300 REM
> 1310 REM Make title line to display/print max and min amphour
> limits
> 1320 REM
> 1330 amphr$ = " | AmpHrs ---->
> "
> 1340 FOR i = 0 TO 10
> 1350 MID$(amphr$, 30 + i * 5 - LEN(STR$(ahmax + (ahstep * i)))) =
> STR$(ahmax + (ahstep * i))
> 1360 NEXT
> 1370 RETURN
> 1400 REM
> 1410 REM Make title line to display/print max and min current
> limits
> 1420 REM
> 1430 amp$ =
> "_Time___v_______v_____Amps_____________________________________________________"
> 1440 FOR i = 0 TO 10
> 1450 MID$(amp$, 30 + i * 5 - LEN(STR$(amin + (astep * i)))) = STR$(amin +
> (astep * i))
> 1460 NEXT
> 1470 RETURN
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
