EV Digest 6519
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Four LiFePo4 cells from batteryspace can work as a lead-acid
replacement
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: [EV] RE: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: [EV] RE: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Chevy Metro Weight
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Thundersky batteries again...
by "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: My next EV project, or Paul goes Datsun
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Safety Disconnect
by Tom Gocze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Portland Roadster Show Photos up
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Thundersky batteries again...
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Chevy Metro Weight
by Ian Page-Echols <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Chevy Metro Weight
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) BattEQ balancers test results was Re: Battery Woes
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Thundersky batteries again...
by "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: My next EV project, or Paul goes Datsun
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Portland Roadster Show Photos up
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: wheel hub motor
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Safety Disconnect
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Chevy Metro Weight - and your BLDC motor
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Need advice on Lee Hart's batt-bridge circuit
by Nick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
What, a 9000Ah cell?
Is there a 3V racing class?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dmitri
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 7:10 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Four LiFePo4 cells from batteryspace can work as a lead-acid
replacement
Just use these http://www.thunder-sky.com/products_en.asp?fid=66&fid2=70 for
EV Why bother with 18650s.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Hwang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 4:30 AM
Subject: Four LiFePo4 cells from batteryspace can work as a lead-acid
replacement
> Did some testing with a potential replacement for lead-acid 12V starter
> batteries, using lithium iron phosphate (Li-Fe-Po4) cells from
> batteryspace. Charged and discharged a string of 4 18650 LiFe cells as
> a lead-acid cell.
>
> It seems like the lithium phosphates can be used as lead-acid cells!
> The LiFePo4 cells don't fully charge, and don't fully discharge when
> treated as a lead-acid, but at a loss of under 150mAh (on a 1300mAh
> cell). It leaves about 90mAh capacity left, and less than 50mAh or so
> undercharged. I think the amount of undercharge will vary by which
> lead-acid charger you are using. (I'm using a Schulze isl 6-330D
> charger, which charges LiFe cells BTW) This will actually increase cell
> life by undercharging them, so I think it's ok. To maximize life of a
> lead-acid cell, you're only supposed to use 50% of it's capacity
> anyways. The PC680 is rated for 17Ah at the 20 hour rate, and I was
> able to only get slightly more than 9Ah at a 6.8A discharge rate.
>
> So I'm still probably going to add a shunt type regulator to prevent
> overcharging, though. Anyways, these can potentially be used for a motive
> pack, wired up in series, since these cells are rated for 10C discharge. I
> put the CBA charts up on my blog http://evconvert.blogspot.com/.
>
> - Tony
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> Of course, it is also entirely possible that your EV-200 may have welded
> prior to the 'event', for instance its life is severely compromised if
> you don't have a precharge resistor or allow the relay to close before
> the caps have precharged sufficiently (e.g. there is a 1000x reduction
> in life between precharging to 80% instead of 90%), or it may have
> welded if the high current event lasted longer than the contactor was
> capable of carrying that current (I think Bill Dube has suggested one
> should ensure that the contactor(s) are capable of surviving the fault
> current for longer than it takes for the fuse(s)/circuit breaker(s) to
> open).
>
What is the normal way to monitor precharging?
I am planning on having two contactors, one that comes on with the key
and another with the PB6.
How much time should I wait before allowing the second contactor to close?
--
Eduardo K. |
http://www.carfun.cl | I'm white and nerdy
http://e.nn.cl | Weird Al
http://ev.nn.cl |
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Brandt wrote:
> When I was running the escort (114V system of floodies with a
> Curtis 1221b), I had 2 EV-200's in series. The second in
> line was shorted by a precharge resistor, and a circuit would
> close that contactor when the system was precharged. So
> there was minimal inrush current. The first one welded shut
> after about 5 cycles and I had to replace it. If they do
> this on a system this far under their specs, I wouldn't use
> them again.
Is there any possibility that you had one of the contactors wired in
reverse polarity? Not the coil, but the main contacts; they are
polarised, and the switch life is *dramatically* reduced if connected in
reverse polarity. According to the datasheet, life is about 12 cycles @
200A if connected in reverse polarity vs 50,000 at about 350A when used
in the correct orientation, according to the 90% precharge capacitive
inrush spec.
Are you sure your precharge circuit was working the way you intended?
This failure is also what one would expect if, for example, the
contactor with the precharge relay were closing immediately, and the one
without was then closing afterwards.
In a nutshell, the contactor with the precharge resistor across it
couldn't possibly precharge anything unless the other contactor was
closed first, and if the first one closes while the other is open, then
it could not see much of an inrush at all.
Many precharge systems actually use a small 10A (P&B KUEP, etc) relay in
series with the precharge resistor so that when the ignition is off the
controller is completely disconnected from the traction battery, and if
these little relays can handle the inrush that your first EV200 would be
switching, then there is no way the EV200 can't.
If the EV200s were closing in the proper sequence, then the contactor
that should see the most stress is actually the second one to close...
> The newer EV-200 model (I forget the model designation - You
> can probably find it on the tyco electronics website) is
> twice as tall. I suspect they had minimal gaps and realized
> that to market the new model for aircraft, as they do, that
> they had to have better reliability, so they increased the
> travel of the contacts.
Actually, the newer LEV200 is only 3" tall vs 2.04-2.2" for the older
EV200, and carries identical ratings. It is grouped under "Aerospace,
Ground Power and Industrial High Performance Contactors", but is
identified as an "Industrial DC Contactor".
The CAP200 appears to be the aerospace counterpart and MAP200 is the
MIL/aerospace counterpart. Both of these parts appear to have similar
dimensions as the smaller EV200 rather than the larger LEV200 part...
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eduardo Kaftanski wrote:
> What is the normal way to monitor precharging?
>
> I am planning on having two contactors, one that
> comes on with the key and another with the PB6.
>
> How much time should I wait before allowing the second
> contactor to close?
Normal... What's that? ;^>
Problem is that you can't just wait some amount of time. This will work
most of the time, but if you're impatient or the resistor fails, or
something prevents the voltage on the controller from coming up like it
should, etc....
I like things to be foolproof so that someone who is not EV-savvy can
safely drive the car, and this means using a circuit that automatically
pulls in the contactor only when the voltage on the controller side of
the precharge resistor reaches a suitable level.
If you are OK with being the smarts controlling the relay, then a simple
way is to connect your battery-side voltmeter to the controller side of
the precharge resistor and only close the contactor when the voltage on
the meter gets close enough to your pack voltage (or quits rising,
etc.).
Another approach used by some is to use a lightbulb or hairdryer as the
precharge resistor so that there is a visible (lightbulb goes dim) or
audible (fan motor slows) signal that precharge has completed normally
(and audible/visible signs if it doesn't ;^).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mar 6, 2007, at 10:23 AM, Ian Page-Echols wrote:
As it's taking me forever to get started on building my electric car,
I've been doing a bunch of poring over stats of various cars trying to
figure out what features, shapes, weights, and sizes might be helpful.
Here's a link to a spreadsheet I've created with a bunch of this. If
anyone has any cars I should add, or different attributes of the cars
I should find, please let me know.
One specific thing I've had a hard time finding is the drag
coefficients of various vehicles. Does anyone know a place to find
this info?
The link:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pF3I_WlZtXKEUmB-YH-JnZA
Nice bit of data collection. You cover a wide range of different
vehicle types. For the EV community that is great, but for your use I
suggest focusing on a smaller range of cars that *you* like.
I just completed my search (current thread on-list.) I shot out a
dragnet for a pre-safety bumper era, RWD, subcompact car. By having a
focus I wasn't out looking at everything. By keeping the focus wide
enough I wasn't going to be forced to either wait for years or buy
someone's junk. I ended up with a low mile 1966 Datsun 411 wagon.
The last question I have is, where are you located? A country and
region is enough info (not prying for personal info.) It effects that
type and years of vehicles available. Other list members from your area
may also have useful insight. Oh, that reminds me - a Honda Insight
could make a fine EV :-)
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know how much these batteries cost expecially the LFP 60 AH
model. Are these batteries reliable? Do they meet the specs shown on their
website?
_________________________________________________________________
Buy what you want when you want it on Sympatico / MSN Shopping
http://shopping.sympatico.msn.ca/content/shp/?ctId=2,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=081805
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm going to clip a few posts together to reply. I'll try and keep
everything separated.
---------------------------
On Mar 4, 2007, at 6:28 PM, Jack Murray wrote:
cool, car looks to be in amazing good shape!
Might be tough with all that extra weight, make sure
all those 40 year suspension and drivetrain parts can handle it.
It really is better than I expected to find. The outside has its share
of minor dings, but all the paint was applied by Datsun in 1966 as near
as my critical eye can determine (I have done bodywork - I have a
critical eye for finding it.) As far as the drivetrain goes, the only
issue I have found is that the steering box is a bit loose. Even the
old (cracking sidewalls) tires seem to be wearing quite evenly. These
things will be carefully checked as the car is converted. I'm sure some
wear will be found.
---------------------------
On Mar 4, 2007, at 8:03 PM, Jeff Shanab wrote:
Well. perhaps my thoughts on my z car may have merit here.
hey, 2100lbs is not bad! My z weighed 3100 before conversion.
You don't know me yet <G>. I'm the owner of the EV buggy in the
EValbum. My first conversion (the buggy) started at 1100 lb. and ended
at 1420 lb. My second conversion started as a 2000 lb. VW Rabbit Pickup
that I stuffed with flooded lead to end up at around 3300 lb. (that's
O.K. - it had a 4000 lb. GVWR) I tend toward light cars :-)
If you put the motor up front you won't have any room for batteries and
you will have to shift. If your batteries end up behind the rear wheel,
it would be a problem. This kindof forces you to put 1 row across in
front, in place of the radiator, and another row just behind the back
seat. Probably that wouldn't be so bad if not floodies.
Unless the motor is real short I can't have 1 row in the radiator area
(and its narrow - 2 batteries?). If I put batteries over the motor I
can get more - under hood height is not an issue. In back I have space,
but you are right, I need to control the weight balance. I can assure
you that floodies are not in my plans. My range needs are minimal so it
will be some type of AGMs.
8 miles each way 3000lb finish weight I am guessing about 300wh/mile to
start with. (mine weights 4050 and I get 431wh/mile)
Sorry I wasn't clear, 8 miles round trip (4 miles each way.) 12 miles
to 80% DOD in the winter when its raining, I'm running the heater and
the batteries are in the 50F temperature range is plenty. Western WA is
pretty mild and this thing won't be getting a break (but will be
getting a garage.)
Some batteries,lead, loose capacity with age, so, unless you want to
throw away the pack when it's capacity drops just a little, you need
some spare capacity.
lets pick 24miles @300wh/mile thats 7.2kwh. Divide by .8 for safe
discharge levels and we are talking 9kw. At the 1hr rate(34ah???) that
is 22 orbitals. 11 buddy pairs gets you 132V pack.
Wow, that is a less than optimistic range. I have come up with some
basic numbers that suggest that if I can get the finished EV in the
2600 lb. to 2700 lb. range with about 700 lb. of lead on board it
should do well. That would be a near 100% DOD range of 29 to 30 miles,
so 12 should be safe. The simple formula I use puts my Buggy range at
18 miles (actually the max is 20 miles) and at the other extreme puts
the Red Beastie (R.I.P.) at 151 miles.
Perhaps a little less conventional conversion thinking is in order.
what
if the spare tire area was used from the bottom instead. a pair of 8"
motors side by side and a series parallel shifting instead of a
mechanical one is somehow dropped into the existing differential (I
know
that thing is rear wheel drive, if independent, the differential
doesn't
move so this would be doable.maybe a 510sedan rear end upgrade?). The
entire under hood area gets turned into a battery box.
Still not gonna get 22 up there, but it helps to keep weight balance as
close to stock as possible.
Stock weight balance is about 55% front and 45% rear. This thing has a
solid rear axle, not IRS. I'm hoping that a more stock conversion will
do the job.
[snip]
---------------------------
On Mar 4, 2007, at 9:35 PM, David Roden wrote:
Thanks for the pics! Love the fuel filter. ;-)
The stock fuel pump died too. A noisy diaphragm pump was located in a
bad area (the lines touch the rear axle and the mounting transmits
noise into the car.) At least all that crud is going into the trash :-)
The overall styling brings back memories of my '65 Opel Kadett. I
sometimes
wish I'd kept it as it would have made an interesting conversion -
surprising amount of room for batteries, sturdy, decently if not
spectacularly agile, and remarkably light - about 1500lb.
If I were doing a car like that today, I might try to take advantage
of the
chair-height seats by putting the charger and controller under the
seats (on
my Kadett, the entire seat tipped forward, not just the backrest).
I'd put
the motor in the driveshaft tunnel if I could, moving the trans back a
bit.
That probably would mean going clutchless.
Under the seats is a good idea. The front seats don't tip forward in
any fashion (remember, its a 4-door.) Still, there is space under them.
I will have to look at the design under the front and rear seats more.
The car is a unibody, but its built like a frame vehicle still
(complete with frame rails - they just happened to be welded to the
body.)
One of the limitations of this vintage of subcompacts is their minimal
braking capacity. This might suggest an AC drive, or a sep-ex DC with
regen.
What, brakes?!? (sorry :-) It has 4 wheel manual drum brakes with duel
leading pads on the front. They work very well and the effort is
somewhere between a stock early VW Beetle (light) and '60's Mopar with
4 wheel manual drums (heavy.) I will be taking a close look at their
condition but I was impressed with how well (and strait) they worked
when I bought the car. I would like to convert to a duel master
cylinder and suspect parts to do that will be available, listed as '67
or '68 411 parts (stock '66 master cylinder diameter is 7/8th inch.)
Remember, me and safety only get along so well - my buggy doesn't even
*have* seat belts (legal, its a '64.) The Datsun has lap belts. They
will work :-)
Actually, sep-ex is an idea. I mostly like the lack of current limit
(aside from my right foot :-) Yea, I like the idea of regen too. Plus,
and idling motor could solve the current EV DC to DC converter problem
(that we worked over thoroughly a few months back.) That is almost new
ground for a modern conversion, but not one that requires significant
vehicle modifications.
[snip]
---------------------------
On Mar 5, 2007, at 2:50 AM, jerryd wrote:
You have a couple things going for you. The
engine, other ICE weight was fairly high in these so it will
drop a fair amount when you take them out.
You hit on something with that point! I have an cast iron block and
head in this old car. Here are some of the weights I have been able to
determine:
Engine with accessories but dry;
292 lb.
Fuel tank with filler complete;
22 lb.
Cooling system (radiator, hoses, clamps);
18 lb.
Exhaust system;
23 lb.
Spare tire;
29 lb.
Stock 12v battery;
35 lb. (a 20 ah AGM should work fine as a replacement)
Fluids (gas, oil, coolant);
98 lb. (I still need the tranny and rear axle oil!)
I have nearly 500 lb. to toss away! The glider should weigh around 1650
lb.
For tires, the 14" Prius/Insight tires are
about the same dia, 22.5" so with some $49 mags from Pep
Boys with universal bolt patterns give you a combined
tire/rim weight of just 25 lbs each with excellent LRR and
saving a few more pounds.
Actually, its about 23 inches tall for the Prius. Its a bit shorter but
could work. The current tires are 23.2 inches (nearly worn out
P165/80R-13) and the speedo reads just a tiny bit slow. Using my wife's
Prius as a comparison (running stock "revs per mile" replacement tires)
I get the indication that 62 mph is in fact 60 mph. That hints that a
24 inch tall tire would make the speedo right on but the odometer
should be calibrated for the stock tire (5.60-13) which is generally
listed as 23.6 inches tall. So many choices here...
[snip]
---------------------------
On Mar 5, 2007, at 8:49 AM, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Ah the old Datsun wagons. I had one.(a 67) I didn't consider it
because of
weight but it's not much more than my Aspire & it is all metal. Real
simple
drive train. There are a couple of transmissions that fit. Yours
might EVen
have the transmission dipstick infront of the shifter.
I haven't looked. I'm pretty sure its the original full syncro 4-speed.
I know its the original engine block (its number is on the body tag.)
All that old stuff seems to work pretty good but the engine shows a
little blue smoke when cold. Unless I have a reason I think I will keep
the old 4-speed. Electric motors like to rev for efficiency anyway, why
drag around an overdrive 5th gear?
There is the funky
cardboard holder under the glove box but you can fab one out of ABS to
replace it when it disintergrates.
I'll keep that in mind but the glove box is sound for now.
These cars have a rear seat area and
hidden cargo space around the tire that are covered with metal. I
used to
get a fairly big tool box back there. These cars are made to hold a
lot of
weight as cargo. The rear tray EVen has a little rod to hold it up
while
you get the spare tire out. The back of the Seat is metal and when
you put
it down the whole back of the wagon is flat as a pancake.
I have noticed :-) The area under the rear tray looks like a great area
to create a battery box. It will be out of site but very accessible.
Thanx for the memories!
[snip]
---------------------------
On Mar 5, 2007, at 12:17 PM, Pestka, Dennis J wrote:
It would look great sitting next to my 65 pickup.
I will keep an eye on your web site.
Still trying to decide a few things myself.
As soon as we both are done we can park together at any EVent we can
both attend :-)
Figuring out the details is 1/2 the work but fun!
Thanx to everyone who responded,
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
A friend suggested this as a cheap, strong manual disconnect. He used
a big barrel fuse holder with a piece of copper pipe of the proper
diameter
as the connector. You can then feed a plastic rope through the tube
into the passenger compartment. Pull when freaked out!
It is a little crude, but it beats ruining a motor. It is unlikely to
weld shut. It could be set up with some conductive grease for good
contact and ease
of use.
I wonder how many amps it could handle. I will try it in my S10. I
have a couple big DC breakers, but I like the lack simplicity of this.
Tom in Maine
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mar 6, 2007, at 7:57 AM, John Wayland wrote:
Just a quick note to let everyone know that a few of the many photos I
took from this past weekend's car show, are up at the Plasma Boy
Racing web page. Look for a post all about the fun, excitement, and
exhaustion of this EVent a bit later.
Right on! The photos you posted look good but I want more. Sorry I
couldn't be there.
The auto show season is coming up. What do we have in store for 2007?
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Their text only website has prices
http://everspring.net/txt/product-battery-pricing.htm
On 3/6/07, Tim Gamber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Does anyone know how much these batteries cost expecially the LFP 60 AH
model. Are these batteries reliable? Do they meet the specs shown on their
website?
_________________________________________________________________
Buy what you want when you want it on Sympatico / MSN Shopping
http://shopping.sympatico.msn.ca/content/shp/?ctId=2,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=081805
--
www.electric-lemon.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Until I get going, I don't really mind trying to gather some data
that was hard for me to find. As much information as I've found,
I've had to look in just about as many places.
But you are right, I've been trying to focus. I'm stuck between a
light pickup, ubiquitous car like a Civic or Neon, or something
strange like a Nash Metropolitan. In other words, I have had very
little luck in narrowing down my options. It seems like there are a
large amount of the light pickups around here (Seattle) for cheap so
that might be what I end up doing. Seems easier to deal with than
being upside down inside of a small sedan working on wiring and whatnot.
On Mar 6, 2007, at 3:29 PM, Paul G. wrote:
On Mar 6, 2007, at 10:23 AM, Ian Page-Echols wrote:
As it's taking me forever to get started on building my electric
car, I've been doing a bunch of poring over stats of various cars
trying to figure out what features, shapes, weights, and sizes
might be helpful. Here's a link to a spreadsheet I've created
with a bunch of this. If anyone has any cars I should add, or
different attributes of the cars I should find, please let me know.
One specific thing I've had a hard time finding is the drag
coefficients of various vehicles. Does anyone know a place to
find this info?
The link:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pF3I_WlZtXKEUmB-YH-JnZA
Nice bit of data collection. You cover a wide range of different
vehicle types. For the EV community that is great, but for your use
I suggest focusing on a smaller range of cars that *you* like.
I just completed my search (current thread on-list.) I shot out a
dragnet for a pre-safety bumper era, RWD, subcompact car. By having
a focus I wasn't out looking at everything. By keeping the focus
wide enough I wasn't going to be forced to either wait for years or
buy someone's junk. I ended up with a low mile 1966 Datsun 411 wagon.
The last question I have is, where are you located? A country and
region is enough info (not prying for personal info.) It effects
that type and years of vehicles available. Other list members from
your area may also have useful insight. Oh, that reminds me - a
Honda Insight could make a fine EV :-)
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
i was thinking g29 motor with the logi upgraded curtis
1205 for 72volts, and then get 9 of those sam's club
8v golf cart batteries. I was going to leave the
manual tranny in there. I hope to get the adapter
plate from wilderness ev, but if you other suggestions
let me know,
thanks!
--- dale henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> what kind of motor/controller/trans/batteries are
> you planning on?
>
> mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hello
>
> I recently purchased a 1998 Chevy Metro.
> GM dropped the "Geo" name in that year.
>
> It seems to be a little heavier. I haven't found the
> weight on the car, but some books say 1895 pounds,
> not
> exactly the 1600 pounds, I was hoping for.
>
> I can't get the car to scale, because it doesn't
> run.
>
> Does anyone know what years of the Geo Metro were
> the
> lightest?
>
> And are there any improvements that are worth the
> weight?
> Maybe better crash protection?
>
> Thanks a lot!
>
> Michael Golub
> Fairbanks, AK
>
> http://community.uaf.edu/~ffmig/home.htm
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Have a burning question?
> Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from
> real people who know.
>
>
>
>
> Albuquerque, NM
> http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
> http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
>
> ---------------------------------
> TV dinner still cooling?
> Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just finished testing Batteq Model LA-50-12-4 SN:04A06410045 on a 48V7Ah
tired UPS pack (7Ah for faster tests)
6 ohms load (8,5A discharge)
2,30Ah with this batteq (until one touch 10,5V)
1,89Ah without (19% loss)
then, to play a little, i connected the Batteq and discharged another 0,21Ah
to 2,1Ah (10% more gain here)
So i note a valide 19% capacity usable gain at 8,5A discharge rate on 7Ah
battery with Batteq connected.
I never saw more than 1,1A equalizing current (i heard about 2A advertised)
It should only give near 3% usable capacity gain for a 50Ah battery (i will
take some time to test this IRL) so imho this model is not powerfull enough
for something bigger than 14Ah in EV use (1C continuous discharge)
For a 50Ah scooter battery, modele 250 (16A advertised current) should be
correct though 250$...
some more data here (in french but numbers are internationnal...)
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=1347&start=73
Cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait du volant, quel carburant choisiriez-vous
?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks alot!
From: "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Thundersky batteries again...
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 16:29:48 -0800
Their text only website has prices
http://everspring.net/txt/product-battery-pricing.htm
On 3/6/07, Tim Gamber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Does anyone know how much these batteries cost expecially the LFP 60 AH
model. Are these batteries reliable? Do they meet the specs shown on their
website?
_________________________________________________________________
Buy what you want when you want it on Sympatico / MSN Shopping
http://shopping.sympatico.msn.ca/content/shp/?ctId=2,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=081805
--
www.electric-lemon.com
_________________________________________________________________
Buy what you want when you want it on Sympatico / MSN Shopping
http://shopping.sympatico.msn.ca/content/shp/?ctId=2,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=081805
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G. wrote:
> After a successful search for just the right donor car I
> have my next EV project, a 1966 Datsun 411 wagon.
> I put up a quickie page with links to some photos of it at:
>
> <http://paul-g.home.comcast.net/next.htm>.
Cool project choice! In all honesty, when I clicked on the link to see
the first EV part installed, I fully expected to see a picture of the
nut behind the wheel ;^>
I drove a '74 B210 during high school, after the rear end went on the
prior owner. Even with the absolutely gripless BFG tires I was running,
I managed to go through another rear end in short order. While there
are enough years separating this car from yours that the similarity
between them may be slight, my experience would lead me to doubt the
stock differential's ability to cope with spirited EV driving. The
4-speed in my B210 was trouble-free, for what that is worth.
My sedan/wagon of choice from this era would be a Volvo 122, based on
the copious underhood space and the ability of its drivetrain to shrug
off everything I threw at it back in high school ;^> The 4-link rear
suspension, stock front seatbelts (lap & shoulder), and availability of
4-wheel disks if the front disk/rear drum setup was inadequate are all
bonuses. I'd take a P1800 wagon over the 122 based purely on looks, but
it didn't come out until the '70s and I don't know that it is as tough
as the 122.
> What I have in mind is a small pack of AGMs and a suitable motor
> feeding the stock 4 speed gearbox (its in great shape.)
> The under hood area is about 24 inches by 24 inches and
> naturally not all of it is available for batteries (mostly
> the master cylinder cuts into it a little.) In the back,
> where the spare tire sits now with the fuel tank underneath,
> I can create a space around 29 inches by 24 inches and keep
> the stock load floor in place.
> I'm targeting a pack voltage between 120 and 156 volts.
This seems ideal for a pack of the group 34 Optimas; the rear box is
just enough space to hold 8 YTs comfortably, leaving just 5 to stuff
under the hood. The underhood 24"x24" space could hold as many as 6 YTs
(pushing you up to 168V), but with the master cylinder cutting in 5 may
be more realistic.
Is there any hope of putting a couple under the rear seat to keep the
underhood area from getting cluttered (and the front end too heavy)? 5
YTs and an ADC 8" would put close to 350lbs under there.
You didn't mention what your range requirements are.
> Wheel selection is somewhat limited but the bolt pattern and
> required offset is the same as a Geo Metro (4 lug on a 4.5 inch
> pattern, about +38 offset.)
It might not be that bad. The 4x114.3mm pattern (and required offset)
gives you 13x4.5 and 14x5 wheels from the Switft/Metro, or 13x5, 14x6,
and 15x6 from the Honda Accord or '92-on Prelude, 14x6 from the pre-85
Toyota Celica (offset may be a bit lower than desired), or 13x5.5 (Mazda
GLC or pre-'90 323), or 14x5.5 from the 84-88 RX7 GSL/SE or 83-87 626.
The Celica had some nice chrome wheels (OK, maybe not quite as nice as
the mags you suggest on your site ;^), and probably some of these other
cars did also (or perhaps factory alloy wheels?), which might free up
more cash to spend on the tires while keeping the classic look of the
car.
Tire-wise, I like the Toyo 800 Ultra, and it is available in all 3 sizes
you list (165/80R13, 175/70R14, and 185/65R14). They worked well on my
'97 Escort wagon and delivered good fuel economy, but I haven't run any
on an EV yet so I can't offer any quantitative rolling resistance
numbers.
Can't wait to see what you build!
Cheers,
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
--- John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello to All,
>
> Just a quick note to let everyone know that a few of
> the many photos I took from this past weekend's car
> show, are up at the Plasma Boy Racing web page.
Miss Oregon, huh, man I want your life! putz!
You know, I just knew I should have came down, it just
ate at me all weekend long, one of those sixth sence
kind of feelings. Not because Miss Oregon was there,
but because I know I could have talked her into
putting her tiara on you so I could get that perfect
"electric prinsess" picture for my website, LMAO!!!
I'm so bummed out now. I could have scored big time
but NOoo I was helping Mother (oh BTW this makes that
seem so much funner, thanks).
I tell you what though I'll use this for years to come
as an excuse to not miss any more of your madass
adventures. I just had to chime in and say you're one
lucky bastard 8^P Not in sqeeking into the show by
special invite, or the Plasma screen, or even Miss
Oregon, you got lucky cause I wasn't there to haunt
your world mister. Anyway I just wanted to let you
know you're breaking my heart here Wayland, freaking
Miss Oregon...
Jim Husted
Motor Dork
____________________________________________________________________________________
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel
bargains.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED],com<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED],com> represents a company In
the uk I believe that sells hub motors . if I remember correctly they have
several sizes . she is cc ed on this e mail so if I goofed she can email me
and I will let you guys know if you are interested you can email her
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter VanDerWal<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 9:43 PM
Subject: Re: wheel hub motor
Are there any other manufacturers than who? For the hub motor that is.
The only one I'm aware of for full size EVs is the NGM motor and they co$t
big buck$ for each one. They aren't all that powerful, relatively low
torque.
Using four of them is definitely NOT a budget conversion. In fact the
cost of just one is about twice what most people spend on their entire
conversion.
Well, there was the company that made the motors they used in the hybrid
Humvee, but they cost even more than the NGM motors, and I've never seen
they advertised as available.
Also, have you actually weighed a bronco with a fiberglass body? Unless
you custom build the body by hand, I don't think you're going to save more
than one or two hundred pounds at most.
Plus they are expensive, even if you build them yourself.
Doesn't sound like much of a budget vehicle.
You might want to rethink the basic concept. If you want to build an off
road EV, great. But if you want to do it on a budget, I'd consider
converting a quad ATV.
> Hello my name is Karsten and I am researching building my first
> electric vehicle. I am interested in using an electric in wheel motor.
> I wanted to build an offroad (but street legal) vehicle to start with,
> because I know my range and speed will be limited by my budget. I was
> thinking of taking an old ford bronco rolling chassis and converting it
> to electric. The ford Bronco with a fiberglass body is a pretty light
> vehicle if I could take out the transfer case, transmission, etc...
> Having 4 independent electric motors as wheels would be incredible for
> 4wdriving. Are there any other manufacturers for in wheel electric
> motors? Are there any other options that I can convert to make an
> electric wheel? Any info regarding electric motors in wheels would be
> greatly appreciated. Thank You.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
if you want a safety disconnect try the old knife switch or a real safety
disconnect . you can buy either at your local electric supply house
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Gocze<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: Safety Disconnect
Hi All,
A friend suggested this as a cheap, strong manual disconnect. He used
a big barrel fuse holder with a piece of copper pipe of the proper
diameter
as the connector. You can then feed a plastic rope through the tube
into the passenger compartment. Pull when freaked out!
It is a little crude, but it beats ruining a motor. It is unlikely to
weld shut. It could be set up with some conductive grease for good
contact and ease
of use.
I wonder how many amps it could handle. I will try it in my S10. I
have a couple big DC breakers, but I like the lack simplicity of this.
Tom in Maine
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--- Begin Message ---
Who makes this motor? Can you describe the control,
current limit, max voltage etc.
Thanks,
Rod
I have two Solectria BRLS-16 motors, 16hp continuous,30hp
(or maybe 32) intermittent. The original controllers were
also built by Solectria. The schematic is posted in the
EVDL document library, although the schematic doesn't show
the power stages. The power stages are what you'd expect.
The controller, as-built, was set to 240 amps maximum
motoring current and somewhere around 150 amps maximum
regeneration current. The minimum voltage the controller
will start up at is around 100 volts, but then it will
continue to run down to 24 volts. The nominal voltage is
144 volts, maximum is listed at 170. There is an overvoltage
protection at around 180 volts which turns off all of the
MOSFET's.
The motor efficiency is quite high - generally in the range
of 85 to 95% throughout most of its speed and torque range.
The torque curve is substantially flat, at around 56 N*m or
41 ft*lbs, dropping very slightly as the motor speeds up.
The current remains the same at 240 amps, not falling as the
motor speeds up - until the motor's back-EMF hits the battery
voltage - conveniently, the motor's redline.
I have not driven an EV built with these motors, but the
University of Alberta hybrid electric Ford from 1993 did
use a pair of them. I have driven (and worked on) the later
U of A HEV which used a pair of UQM motors. Those had a
lot of pulling power. I dunno if anyone else on this list
is an ex-HEV'er from those competitions.
The accelerator and brake inputs sum together to generate
a desired current setpoint, and a direction signal to the
digital part of the controller. A constant-ripple current PWM
strategy is used in this controller.
The original MOSFET's were not available any more, so I
rebuilt the one controller of mine that was not working,
using a Fairchild FMG2G300US60E dual IGBT, 300A, 600V.
The controller works now, but I have not tested this above
about 100 amps, and I can only do that for a second or two
because I don't have a battery pack - or a power supply that is
capable of doing that. I calibrated the current setpoint
using data sheet curves for current vs. voltage drop. Using
the IGBT means that I could use a higher supply voltage - up
to 400 volts is reasonable for a 600V IGBT.
There are a couple of shortcomings in the original controller:
There is no speed limiter built into the controller, the
maximum motor back-emf limits the motor speed if you are
running the recommended voltage. This controller does not
do phase advance or field weakening so that is less of a
problem. The motor is rated at 5500 RPM. The hall effect
encoder blows up before the rest of the motor. I don't know
what the rest of the motor will take.
I would like to add a speed limiter to this controller, I
can't imagine designing a controller without a speed limiter.
Also, the encoder interface does not deal with illegal state
transitions, and, being a 60 degree encoder, a sensor
disconnected state is legal. The motor stops very abruptly
if the cable is disconnected. That may have actually been what
blew up the controller in the first place. I did not blow
it up - that's how I managed to get it for a good price.
An encoder state 'watchdog' circuit would also be a prudent
addition to a BLDC controller - a simple model of motor speed
and a window of expected commutation sequence should be
relatively easy to add. Illegal commutation = turn off
all devices = coast down.
When I look at what I think a BLDC motor controller should do,
I almost feel as though I should design my own controller, and
I might just do that. I'm just a bit afraid to do that, although
maybe I should not be.
To be realistic, some of the newer induction motors offer similar
power-to-weight ratios as these older BLDC's, but since I have
these, it makes sense to use them.
I have been looking for a good glider to put either one or two of
these motors in. Hopefully soon....
-Dale
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--- Begin Message ---
Humm, I was advised to do both, and to use the EV250. The EV200 specs
look good, but I will let the experts comment on that.
Maybe becuase I have a 288V (nominal) pack.
mid pack I have two heinemans in series(pin the handles together), the
ev250 is handled by the hairball in my case.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello all,
I just constructed the circuit shown in the email below. It seems pretty
simple and straight-forward, so I figured I couldn't screw anything up.
Well, when I fired it up, all three lights come on. I checked
everything, and figured out that if I disconnected my DC-DC converter,
the two red lights would turn off. But, I don't want to leave my DC-DC
disconnected (Duh!) and I also discovered that when I drive it (without
the DC-DC) both red lights would come on faintly whenever I accelerated
(even slightly). I suspect this has something to do with AC ripple
current from the controller or something like that, but I don't know
enough about such things to troubleshoot this myself.
Any recommendations, anyone?
Thanks,
Nick
Lee Hart wrote:
Edward Ang wrote:
How about this circuit below? [snip]
Yes, this is a variant of my "batt-bridge" circuit. It's a good way to
indicate the *relative* differences between batteries (which in most
cases is all you need to know).
The simplest version is:
Pack+______________
|
>
red > R1
LED >
___|/|___|
| |\| _|_
Center___| _\_/_ green
tap | | LED
|___|\|___|
|/| |
red >
LED > R2
>
Pack-______________|
This deceptively simple circuit lights the green LED whenever pack power
is available, and one of the red LEDs if the voltage of *any* battery is
about 1 volt different than the rest.
For example, while you are driving, the first cell that goes dead drops
rapidly under load from 2v to 1v. This lowers its half-pack voltage by
1v. If it's in the upper half, the upper red LED lights. If it's in the
lower half, the lower red LED lights.
While charging, the first battery that goes into overcharge has a rapid
rise in its voltage. When it is 1v high (like 15v when the rest are 14v,
this also lights oneo of the red LEDs.
Use high-brightness red LEDs, and a normal-brightness green LED. R1 and
R2 should be chosen for about 10-20ma with your pack voltage, and both
must be identical values (use 1% resistors). With a 144v pack and 14.4ma
for example, R1+R2 = 144v/0.0144a = 10k, or 5k each. These are power
resistors; each one dissipates P = I^2 x R = (0.0144)^2 x 5000 = 1 watt,
so use at least 2 watt resistors.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
