EV Digest 6534
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: SCCA Problems with Electrics
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Jaguar XJ6 EV?
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Hybrid Car Crash - Tacoma WA - 3/6/07
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Chevy Volt again
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Nice AC motors on E-bay
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: BugE again
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Hybrid Car Crash - Tacoma WA - 3/6/07
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Jaguar XJ6 EV?
by "bortel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Chevy Volt again
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Nice AC motors on E-bay
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: SCCA Problems with Electrics
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: BugE again
by "bortel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Heatsinking a Curtis - necessary for golf cart versions?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Unsubscribe
by "Doug McKee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Jaguar XJ6 EV?
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: RAV4-EV (was: Electric Ford Ranger on E-bay)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) Re: Precharge alternatives
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Reading Material
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I wouldn't think floodeds would cause much damage to a race track
unless it is made of cotton. Isn't most of it concentrated with water
anyway? I haven't tried this or want to but I've read that it is
actually safe to dip your finger in a cell, like a US Battery or
Trojan flooded battery. It won't burn your skin off to the bone. Just
make sure to rinse off afterwards. I'm sure I've got some spilled on
my skin filling the batteries or cleaning them. I know it will eat up
jeans. I have several pairs to prove it. But a track, I don't think
it would eat it up if it was rinsed off thoroughly following a spill
along with baking soda to neutralize the acid.
Now I have noticed that when I left an old flooded battery on my
garage floor for awhile it started eating away at the concrete. I
didn't realize it had a small hole in it and was leaking. So yes I
have seen the acid eat away at concrete. That was over period of a
couple months. It ruined the surface of my garage floor where the
battery sat.
But in an accident if it was rinsed off a concrete or asphalt track
immediately with water and baking soda to neutralize the acid it
should be OK. It shouldn't cause permanent damage.
I'm sure it's not as bad as spilling oil, gas or grease which
requires chemicals or absorbant materials to get up. And a trace or
stain would still be left behind. With spilling oil it gets all in
the pores of the asphalt and resurfaces during a rainstorm and makes
the road slippery. So there are long lasting effects with spilling oil.
I wouldn't want to competitively race a vehicle in a slalom event
anyway with floodeds. They are heavy and the water sloshing around
inside the batteries would cause a car to roll more in the turns. But
there are times when you don't have a choice. Like taking your
commuter EV with floodeds for a fun jaunt in a slalom course. The
slaloms are fun so I see no reason to ban floodeds if the cars pass a
technical inspection and are held down and contained in the passenger
compartment. The biggest thing is the hold downs. Cars using fabric
hold down straps you get at Lowes wouldn't be safe. I can see SCCA
banning floodeds since that is more competitive. But for our slalom
events I would allow them if they are securely held down and don't
pose a problem with the weight causing the vehicle to tip easily.
NESEA would test the cars to see if they would roll too much before
the Tour de Sol. You had to go around a corner at a set speed and
judges would observe to see if the vehicles were safely cornering.
Those vehicle that looked like they would tip too easily were pulled
out.
Now sulfur sodium and batteries that have high operating
temperaturers, that is another story altogether. Li-Pos are dry so
that wouldn't be a problem.
I would like to know what battery chemistry was used on that Arizona
track.
Chip Gribben
On Mar 9, 2007, at 11:38 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: March 9, 2007 11:38:08 AM EST
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: SCCA Problems with Electrics
David,
Thanks for posting this link. It is a fun thread.
<http://sccaforums.com/forums/permalink/222005/221933/
ShowThread.aspx#221933>
Quoted from http://www.sccaforums.com:
Two years ago at the SCCA convention someone brought up the idea in
the main Town Hall meeting about electric race cars. He basically
sort of accused the SCCA of not bothering to care about electric race
cars in general and said we needed to be exploring it. Then
someone from Arizona (IIRC) said their region had several folks
who had
tried electric race cars but that they had several have battery
meltdowns on track and they were banned from at least one track
because
of the damage and cleanup problems from this kind of failure. I
can only imagine that even if you got the necessary monitoring
down to
prevent this that you'd still have to worry about the problems caused
by wrecks.
Let's see what the shared knowledge of the EV list can answer
whether battery powered cars are dangerous to track surfaces.
The most obvious suspect is flooded lead acid batteries. I have not
worked with these much. I know not to get the acid in my eyes, on
my clothes, on my tender bits (and I do not think I want to know
how some one found that out<G>) but what about splashed on the
skin? Does it hurt? How quickly do you need to wash off the acid?
Will it kill me? Will water cure me?
What about a spill on the track? Will it damage the pavement? Will
it discolor the pavement? How quickly? Will water get rid of the
problem?
I know there are a number of Arizona list members. Have any of you
heard about battery powered cars damaging a race track?
I have a vague recollection that at one of the APS EV races, there
was a sodium sulfur battery pack that cracked open. The sodium
sulfur battery had an operating range of 572 to 673 degrees F. If
the hot electrolyte spilled on the track, that might do some
serious damage. Where ever I heard the story mentioned a nice cloud
of toxic smoke. Anybody know the facts?
Any other suspects? The only other battery that I can think of that
has enough liquid to spill is nickel-cadmium. Anyone using EV ni-
cads have answers about how dangerous to pavement or persons a
spill is?
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Finn John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm making plans to have some sort of
> electric commuter vehicle
> the Jag's engine at 220,000 miles is starting to show signs
> of needing to be rebuilt.
Which also means the chassis has seen 220K miles, implying
that it will need attention too, 'specially if you're
thinking of adding another 1000lbs of weight to it.
> thinks I, maybe I should look at converting the Jag.
I would recommend against it, because it's a somewhat
difficult vehicle to support for another 10 or so years
that it will be electric. You just can't go to Pep Boys
or the boneyard and get stuff for it. Making any vehicle
into an EV doesn't magically transform it into a new car,
whatever issues exist or occur will have to be dealt with,
ICE or EV. If you don't want to deal with oddball chassis
issues you might be better off with a different vehicle.
At a minimum you will have to beef up the suspension and
possibly upgrade the brakes. One argument in your favor
is that it helps to love the car and you're more likely
to go through to extra expense and work it takes to
build it and keep it going. I've known several ex-EV'ers
that went through all the trouble and expense of building
an EV out of a vehicle that they already had, or bought
cheap, then ended up selling parting it out because it
was a car they hated to begin with. After having seen
POS EV's and some really nicely done ones, I would even
consider buying a relatively new ICE car with low miles
and starting with that. Then you're starting off with
a platform that you know will have some level of parts
availability and chassis life before you even make it
an EV. A POS ICE will net you a POS EV, unless you
do a lot of work to it.
> Jaguar I-6 only puts out around 100 peak horsepower
> I'm probably only getting 80 out of it now.
> That's not too far off of the peak power outputs of
> some of the 9" DC motors.
But, consider the vehicle will weigh about 1000lbs more
when it's an EV. Any less weight due to fewer batteries
would mean you wouldn't get the range you're looking for.
Put 1000lbs of sandbags in the trunk and back seat and drive
around with it, and see if you're happy with that level
of performance and handling.
> can I run an electric motor through an automatic
> transmission?
You can, but aside from the inefficiencies you noted,
there are other side effects such as being in the wrong
RPM range for the motor, changing the shift points and
having to idle the electric motor to keep the pump active.
It's easier to interface to a manual, they are more efficient
and you can drive it like an automatic anyway. Because
you don't need it to interface to the ICE, you should
be able to fit a more commonly used manual transmission in
place of the slushbox. You will be fabricating your own motor
mounts anyway, so the idea of retrofitting an alternate trans
with a custom driveshaft will be little or no additional
work over trying to get the slushbox modified and
integrated.
> Anybody have a ball-park guess as to how many miles
> per KwH I'd be looking at with a car like this?
My S-10 is 375wH/mi, and since the weights are similar,
I would say that's in the ballpark for yours. Bump that
up if you use the slushbox. This figure does not include
charger efficiency.
If you're willing to deal with the idea of having to
support this vehicle and don't mind hacking up a
sentimental object, you can certainly make it into an
EV. There is something to be said for using a chassis
that's already bought and paid for, as opposed to
spending additional funds to get a different one.
Your greatest challenge will be battery choice and
placement in the chassis, so consider that carefully
before you start tearing into the vehicle. After
that, range and speed are a matter of calculation and
you can readily determine if they will meet your
performance and budget requirements.
Mark "EV Basher" Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree, it's a stupid article
This is my favorite line
"I said you need to get out of there, that's a hybrid car," Smith said.
Oh my gosh, a hybrid car! Head for the hills before she blows!
There have been over 500,000 Prius' built and how many others have
decided the local mini-mart was a drive-thru?
Interesting.
Chip
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: March 9, 2007 4:49:16 AM EST
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Hybrid Car Crash - Tacoma WA - 3/6/07
Don't worry - The Prius brakes are the best I have ever seen on any
car I
owned.
This story is so full of contradictions that it is not even funny,
so I suggest you stop wasting your breath over it.
Example:
driver implies that it has a design fault, because the runaway car
could not
be shifted into neutral to disable it, but next statement is that
it all
happened so fast that there was no time for anything.
Sounds to me as searching for a stick to hit a dog - you find that
the car
has no true disconnect from the wheels and you use that to blame an
error or
defect that is not even known yet and you could not have prevented
On 3/8/07, Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi,
I own a Prius, you cam't just shut off the ign switch. In order to
shut it off while it is moving, you have to hit the power button
twice, because of the computer programming. I learned this just
recently, even tough I have owned it for a year and a half. A new
owner may not be aware of this.
Bill
Richard Acuti wrote:
What a stupid article. In over 100 years of use, an ICE powered car
has never crashed into a building due to a stuck accelerator? The
12v electrical system has never sparked a gasoline fire after an
accident?
I can see some upset soccer mommy in front of a Congressional
committee
now: "Hybrids and electric-drive cars are a menace to our highways
and must be stopped!"
You know, although the article quoted the guy saying he applied the
brakes, never once did he say "I shut off the ignition switch". I
realize he was taken by surprise and probably only had seconds to
act but that probably would have prevented the whole thing. Just as
it would for any other ICE vehicle.
Rich A.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Peter Gabrielsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Apologies if this has been posted already..
>
> There are some interesting pictures of what's under
> the hood of the
> Volt concept vehicle here:
>
http://sirymarketing.blogspot.com/2007/03/more-on-volt.html
I found this blog interesting, especially the post
from a GM worker (Chris Preuss
Executive Director Product Communications)
chris preuss said...
(Are you going to develop new battery technology
in house or partner with a battery vendor? Or are you
going to try and utilize existing technology to
squeeze out performance, similar to Tesla)
Okay, now I will be practicing without a license,
but I'll do my best to answer this one. We have issued
two development contracts with battery parterns
(A123/Cobysys and JCI/SAFT) and have two more in the
works. So, we will likely have a partner. As most know
here there are several key challenges to tackle, the
biggest being cost and thermal management. With the
range extending generator, we won't need as big
battery pack as what Tesla used on the TR, but the
nature of the beast is that you must string many small
cells together. We're essentially having a bake-off on
what cell chemistry and arrangements work best. The
next big question will be how to ramp up the
production. This is one area that we know we can be a
significant player in helping put all the pieces
together for the company that gets the right cell.
We've got several very promising "working" cells that
are past preliminary bench testing and we're still
very encouraged by what we see. Still, there's a lot
of risk. But honestly, given where the company has
been over the last two years, there's nothing to lose!
We're actually doing a media program on how we are
approaching the battery issue on Monday...I'll see if
there's a way for our guys to post some of the
materials or presentations.
(As far as "not a running vehicle" remark is
concerned, I have seen this car move on Bob Lutz's
presentation and the atmosphere the presentation have
successfully created did not even hint at the vehicle
being so far off. I was honestly led to believe that
this is something really close and maybe even
roadworthy. Guess, not.)
We are not that far off from the vehicle. We
revealed the new Camaro at the Detroit show in 2006
and made a production announcement about six months
later. It will come out in 2009. You can use that same
math to get a fix on how we plan to do the Volt. The
vehicle drive components are very far along...they're
rooted in the EV-1 and have been developed over three
generations of fuel cell vehicles. The ONLY issue in
giving a firm production date is we don't have a firm
timeline on the battery for the reasons stated above.
But we will have those questions answered soon enough
and will confirm production dates once we do. We will
NOT drag this out and walk at the last minute by
blaming the battery, as some are predicting.
Internally, the development program is like the
Manhattan project and we've bet arguably all our
credibility on this one. We've got work going on 24/7
on three continents with several hundred engineers and
scientists. The interesting thing on the Volt is what
it's doing internally at GM -- it's become a real
rallying point for a pretty embattled group. I can't
say haven't earned much of the grief that many are and
have heaped on us...I can only tell you that if there
is a way to get this done...we're going to do it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dale,
By 'encoder', do you mean the $0.50 optical rpm sensor from HP printers?
That is what is used on the Hughes 50kW AC motors as used on US Electricar.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dale Ulan
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 7:11 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Nice AC motors on E-bay
$2K for a 33KW continous 3-phase AC motor is a tad overpriced, isnt it ?
how much does one weigh, by the way ?
Probably not 'that' overpriced given that there's an encoder in there and
everything. Peak power output is probably 80 to 100 kW with a reasonable
controller for it. The Azure equivalent is in the same ballpark price-wise.
Industrial (Baldor, Leeson) motors seem to be priced around $1000 or so
without an encoder. I was seriously thinking of building a controller for
one of those at one point, but I dunno.
My ICE car (VW Golf) was in a crash last night (with an
18-wheeler) so we'll see what the insurance company says about it.... By the
way, I'm ok - other driver's fault.
One thing with most AC induction controllers is they need to be configured
to the motor's characteristics - rotor resistance, inductance, turns ratios,
stator resistance, encoder characteristics, etc. I would say a seasoned
electrical engineer (familiar with high power electronics and DSP's) could
probably build a controller for it and program it and tune it, and if the
goal is to spend a year doing it, it could be done. It almost certainly
would be possible to program another controller to drive it but I think
you'd be time (and possibly
money) ahead by just buying a complete matched system from Victor (or
Azure).
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "David O'Neel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: BugE again
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 10:37:46 -0800
>What got my attention was the original kit cost estimate of
>$3000, but then I added up the replacement parts costs on
>the order form and it was over $3000 without any of the
>drive components!
And you expected different? Dealing with parts at a
time and a whole unit is a completely different cost
structure. Where one is 1 customer at 1 time where parts
means many transactions at a much greater labor, inventory
involved. It's the difference between retail and wholesale.
It is realistic, but unfortunate because
>that difference in cost will likely discourage many buyers.
Just how many buyers do you think he needs? He
couldn't build enough if just .1% wanted one. I'm sure if
it's built well and he has the experience to do it, it can
be easily worth that to those who unlike me and probably
you, would put in 100-300 hrs to build one cheap. But others
want cool toys and gladly pay someone to design, get the
parts ready to assemble. Others will assemble them probably
with improvements.
I think he'll sell lots of them hopefully as we need
a good lightweight but reliable, not the Chinese, ect junk
we have now that doesn't last more than a couple months.
There is quite a good market for these size EV's
using real EV parts for reliability, low cost. I believe
these small, as I call them, Personal Transport Modules
will be the next big thing in transportation as car costs go
thru the roof like they are now. As competetion rises, costs
will come down to about $2-3k finished.
>Any more than $5000 and I would more likely take the plunge
>for a full-on conversion.
The difference is running costs. While you could do
a $5k conversion if you are cheap or do a 50 mph VW bug
conversion, many like the small size and just want that.
Think of a student or many others who don't want, can't have
a car, and just want to get around, especially in the cities
where parking is expensive. With a curtain enclosure in the
rear, it would be a fairly all weather vehicle. It's fairly
easy to get 50 mile range in this size EV. Even more if you
go Ni-cad, Li-ion, Ni-mh which because of the small pack
size, can be somewhat affordable.
And I really like tooling around in these size EV's,
they are fun.
Jerry Dycus
>
>It really looks like a fun vehicle though, thanks for the
>links.
>
>Dave O.
>
>On 3/8/07, Michael Perry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> This week's Eugene Weekly has an article on the BugE.
>> http://www.eugeneweekly.com
>>
>> For those who don't recall, he designed the Gizmo, which
>> had some success, despite its relatively high cost. The
>> BugE is now expecting to sell in the $5K range for the
>> kit... which makes it about 1/3 the cost the Gizmo would
>be today (if still being built). It appears he leveraged
>> his Electrathon experience (he's been building a kit for
>> years) and made a rig that is more
>> practical for every day driving... at neighborhood
>>speeds.
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually almost any newer car will stop quickly, even with the gas pedal
floored.
Some autocrossers with turbos will floor the gas pedal the whole time, and
left-foot brake, to keep the turbo spooled up.
It's long downhills riding the brakes, or racetrack use, that will fade the
brakes. A single stop with the gas pedal floored won't come close.
Here's a quick proof: A typical car can stop 2 or 3 times faster than it can
accelerate to freeway speed. This means the brakes can absorb 2 or 3 times the
power the motor puts out (actually it is more, the limiting factor is tire
traction). Even better proof: Under safe conditions try it.
----- Original Message ----
From: Finn John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Friday, March 9, 2007 12:16:54 PM
Subject: Re: Hybrid Car Crash - Tacoma WA - 3/6/07
... But no standard-issue
brake system will stop a car from freeway speed with
the throttle wide open. Disc brakes are great but they
will fade, and that Prius is a real torque monster
with both power sources howling. I could be wrong but
I just don't believe the brake system exists in a
production car selling for under 75 kiloquid that
could do that. ...
____________________________________________________________________________________
Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John,
That vehicle is about the same weight as an S-10 or Ranger, so you might
look at those conversions for ideas.
I think a 30 mile range at 50mph (or better) is possible with an AC drive
system (check with www.metricmind.com ) and about 28 AGM forklift batteries
(like Champions, John Wayland can help with this). The car will end up being
about 6000lbs. so the suspension will need some work too.
You'll probably be in it about $10-15k for all of the parts and pieces.
Later,
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Finn John
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 11:58 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Jaguar XJ6 EV?
Hi everybody! My name's Finn John, I live about 10 miles out of Corvallis,
Ore., where I work, and I'm making plans to have some sort of electric
commuter vehicle before the end of this summer. Would any of you guys have
time to give me a bit of advice on the whole thing? Sorry if I'm asking
stupid questions, but I had to start somewhere.
Initially I wanted to find an old Fiat 500 or similar 900-pound unit with a
dead motor and go from there, but then I realized I really don't use my
Jaguar (an '84 Series 3, given to me by my dad, sentimental value, etc.) for
anything other than commuting and taking my son to school. My wife has a
Honda hybrid that we use for all our longer trips. And to top it off, the
Jag's engine at 220,000 miles is starting to show signs of needing to be
rebuilt.
So, thinks I, maybe I should look at converting the Jag.
Now, this is a 4,000-pound car, heavier than most of the electric
conversions I've been able to track down data on. But the smog-tuned
4.2-liter Jaguar I-6 only puts out around 100 peak horsepower in top
condition, and I'm probably only getting 80 out of it now. That's not too
far off of the peak power outputs of some of the 9" DC motors. I guess I'd
have to run 144 volts through it to get that, which would mean buying a few
extra Optima Red Tops, but I could handle that.
So my first question is, does that sound like it could be done? And if so,
would it have the 30-mile range I need to get to work and back?
My next question is, can I run an electric motor through an automatic
transmission? The car has a Borg-Warner Model 66, a fairly inefficient
3-speed slushbox pushing a 2.88:1 rear end. Would this drivetrain absorb too
much of the motor's output to effectively drive the car?
Fourth question: Anybody have a ball-park guess as to how many miles per KwH
I'd be looking at with a car like this? Nothing precise, just trying to get
some idea of what it'll cost to run. If it's high enough, it may actually
pencil to convert a smaller car and keep the Jag intact. I don't need much
in the way of performance, 50 mph will do. Most of my commute is on back
roads.
Thanks a million for any help and advice you can give!
--Finn
____________________________________________________________________________
________
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Chevy Volt again
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 11:41:08 -0800
>Apologies if this has been posted already..
>
>There are some interesting pictures of what's under the
>hood of the Volt concept vehicle here:
>http://sirymarketing.blogspot.com/2007/03/more-on-volt.html
>I particularly liked the DC motor, lead acid battery and
>the bucket of laundry detergent.
>
>That aside, there's some really interesting comment from a
>GM official on the same page.
I couldn't help myself and posted a comment there.
jerry dycus said...
It's amazing GM is still using the same old excuse, the
batteries are not good enough yet. While lead has been
laughed at, it's easily capable of 100 mile range, it just
needs a glider designed as an EV instead of the conversions
GM, others call EV's.
Now the EV-1 was a good, built as an EV and GM ripped them
away for the lessors and crushed them. Our taxes paid big
time for them and they should have been allowed to live on.
But the EV-1 was designed to fail, to show EV's were too
expensive to be practical. And his saying they are using the
EV-1's controller shows they have not learned their lesson
that DC motors, controllers are the way for a good
reasonable cost EV that everyone can afford.
A Geo Metro 3cyl motor with a flywheel or clutched DC
motor/gen, clutched to a EV DC drive motor with a driveshaft
to the differential with 20% of the vehicles weight in lead
batteries, is all that's needed to make a great 30 mile
range on EV plug in power before the ICE even starts!!! Many
will rarely fill up as that's all they normally need. With a
good battery management and quality batteries, not like the
EV-1's, they should last 6-8 yrs or so, in time to be
converted to Li-ions as their price will have dropped
greatly by then.
As for Li-ion batteries, Kokam's are great and you don't
need thousands of cells to make a pack as they come in 100
amphr cells. A friend of mine, Cliff at Pro-EV races SCCA
with them and is the current SE Fla SCCA champion in the
modified class!! Not only does it win races, but also goes
over 100 mile range!!
But I guess this is too easy for GM so they want to do it
the expensive, hard to make work way so it too will fail.
Fair warning to GM, either get on the stick with EV's, plug
in hybrids with good cost effective designs or you will fall
farther behind. Sadly I used to be a GM fan.
My last EV got the equivilent of 230mpg cost wise and
150-400 mpg energy wise depending on the source of fuel to
make the electricity. Think of it, a penny/mile fuel costs!!
Now why doesn't GM build those for us?
Fri Mar 09, 01:35:00 PM 2007
Jerry Dycus
>
>
>
>
>--
>www.electric-lemon.com
>
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By 'encoder', do you mean the $0.50 optical rpm sensor from HP printers?
That is what is used on the Hughes 50kW AC motors as used on US Electricar.
Well, yea. But you have to mount it and mount an encoder wheel, all the
little things that add up. Although I thought that Siemens used a larger
wheel and hall-effect sensing like on a lot of ICE crankshaft position
sensors. Check out the price of a Leeson or Baldor with and without
an encoder.
-Dale
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I am a motorcycle guy not a car guy, but the tracks in the US South West are shared between them. The problems with
spilled stuff in bike races are more in the line of time-to-clean-up and slipperyness, and training rather than pavement
damage. I assume its similar for cars. While the cornerworkers and track personnel are mostly dedicated, they aren't
highly trained nor paid, and it could be a significant burden to train them to clean up or fight fire differently. The
tracks are non-profit or not very profitable outside IRL and NASCAR, so they haven't much flexibility.
For example, lately its become universal to require bellypans to catch oil&water, and for a long time antifreeze has
been banned in motorcycles. Its common to require hardened engine covers too. A bad crash with an oil spill can take an
hour or more to clean up at a bike race.
Last thought: what about oval track racing? the weight of the batteries might actually help because you can set them to
the inside.
Just my two cents
JF
I would like to know what battery chemistry was used on that Arizona track.
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--- Begin Message ---
I went down and spent a few hours with Mark Murphy about a week ago looking
at and talking about the BugE prototype. I have to say he has really done a
nice job with this design. The fit and finish is almost perfect and what
small problems the prototype still has will be fixed by the time it is
produced.
Although it is only about half the weight of his earlier design the Gizmo,
it appears to be a much safer design. The reduced weight also makes it a
much more peppy and efficient vehicle.
I had some concern about the open back and the Oregon rain, but Mark has the
aerodynamics worked out keep this from being a problem. The wind and rain
simply passes by the shell and doesn't blow onto the driver.
The other nice thing about this design is it's elegant simplicity. Mark
thinks that someone with moderate skills could put this kit together less
than 40 hours. After looking at it in depth, I think anyone that has worked
at all with EVs could do it in much less time.
Also it is an extremely flexible design. If you want to use a bigger motor
or more voltage for more speed, it can be done. If you want to add a second
seat for a child or a motorcycle double seat, you can do that. If you want
to make it an HPV hybrid, that's also possible.
The local alternative newspaper in Eugene just did a great front page
article on the BugE that you can read at: www.eugeneweekly.com .
This is IMHO a great all weather motorcycle at an incredible price and I
want to be one of the first to get one.
Later,
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: Darin - at - metrompg.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 8:33 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: BugE again
I see there are also a few more videos of the machine in action, posted
on the BugE site (and at YouTube):
http://www.blueskydsn.com/BugE_First_Movie.html
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Cor van de Water wrote:
After half an hour Googling I still had no hits for "gas filled" in
combination with Czonka,
so I started clicking away at the Czonka Contactor hits and first found
several specs saying that it was a sealed contactor, without specifying what
was inside, like:
http://www.answers.com/topic/contactor200ampsealed-jpg
Then I suddenly stumbled upon this site - is this the original (Chinese?)
producer or a copy-cat of the Czonka?
They are all Vacuum or SF-6 filled (the high voltage versions) except the
larger contactors in the EV range which are..... Hydrogen filled!
Aha! We were all right :-) Good detective work, Cor.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
I was quoting *motor* current, not battery current with the wheels
in the air... Motor current is roughly proportional to torque, so
it is the one to measure when trying to get an idea of drive train
losses and drag.
Roger Stockton wrote:
This seems counter intuitive, Lee.
Every motor model makes a different amount of torque per amp, so while
motor current might be a useful metric for before and after measurements
on a particular vehicle, it seems relatively useless for comparing
between dissimilar vehicles.
I didn't mean to compare the numeric motor current readings between
different cars, because as you said, every type of motor has a different
torque-current relationship. I just meant that for testing *your own
vehicle*, motor current is a good way to see if some change was an
improvement or not.
However, our motors and controllers will have similar efficiency, so if
you were to measure the battery current and voltage instead you have a
measure of the power required to perform the test, and this seems to be
a metric that both allows useful before and after comparisons on a
single vehicle as well as comparisons between any pair of vehicles.
Yes; power from the batteries (or better yet, power to the motor) would
be a better metric for comparing losses between vehicles.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 1:01 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Kilovac EV-200 as safety disconnect?
Cor van de Water wrote:
> After half an hour Googling I still had no hits for "gas filled" in
> combination with Czonka,
> so I started clicking away at the Czonka Contactor hits and first
found
> several specs saying that it was a sealed contactor, without
specifying what
> was inside, like:
> http://www.answers.com/topic/contactor200ampsealed-jpg
>
> Then I suddenly stumbled upon this site - is this the original
(Chinese?)
> producer or a copy-cat of the Czonka?
> They are all Vacuum or SF-6 filled (the high voltage versions) except
the
> larger contactors in the EV range which are..... Hydrogen filled!
Aha! We were all right :-) Good detective work, Cor.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I almost bought one of these a while back to convert.
There are some good things about this car, being heavy already it is
designed to handle more weight, the engine and trans are big and heavy,
so you can stuff under the hood with a lot of batteries once you remove
the engine and trans. I'm pretty sure has an IRS rear, so you connect
the motor directly to the differential in back, if no freeway use, you
can gear it for around town only.
THe downside is that there is probably a computer that might not like
having the engine removed, might be ok to just yank it all, but its an
unknown, there are a lot of power controls in the car that might not
work anymore.
Nobody has converted one before, so you'll need some fab and problem
solving skills to get it done.
I say if you like the car go for it, its a lot of work and expense to
convert any car, so you really need to do a car you want to own and drive.
Jack
Finn John wrote:
Hi everybody! My name's Finn John, I live about 10 miles out of Corvallis,
Ore., where I work, and I'm making plans to have some sort of electric commuter
vehicle before the end of this summer. Would any of you guys have time to give
me a bit of advice on the whole thing? Sorry if I'm asking stupid questions,
but I had to start somewhere.
Initially I wanted to find an old Fiat 500 or similar 900-pound unit with a
dead motor and go from there, but then I realized I really don't use my Jaguar
(an '84 Series 3, given to me by my dad, sentimental value, etc.) for anything
other than commuting and taking my son to school. My wife has a Honda hybrid
that we use for all our longer trips. And to top it off, the Jag's engine at
220,000 miles is starting to show signs of needing to be rebuilt.
So, thinks I, maybe I should look at converting the Jag.
Now, this is a 4,000-pound car, heavier than most of the electric conversions I've
been able to track down data on. But the smog-tuned 4.2-liter Jaguar I-6 only puts
out around 100 peak horsepower in top condition, and I'm probably only getting 80
out of it now. That's not too far off of the peak power outputs of some of the
9" DC motors. I guess I'd have to run 144 volts through it to get that, which
would mean buying a few extra Optima Red Tops, but I could handle that.
So my first question is, does that sound like it could be done? And if so,
would it have the 30-mile range I need to get to work and back?
My next question is, can I run an electric motor through an automatic
transmission? The car has a Borg-Warner Model 66, a fairly inefficient 3-speed
slushbox pushing a 2.88:1 rear end. Would this drivetrain absorb too much of
the motor's output to effectively drive the car?
Fourth question: Anybody have a ball-park guess as to how many miles per KwH
I'd be looking at with a car like this? Nothing precise, just trying to get
some idea of what it'll cost to run. If it's high enough, it may actually
pencil to convert a smaller car and keep the Jag intact. I don't need much in
the way of performance, 50 mph will do. Most of my commute is on back roads.
Thanks a million for any help and advice you can give!
--Finn
____________________________________________________________________________________
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
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--- Begin Message ---
Mark> Rav 4 seems to be gone!
Well, the auction ended at $39,100 without meeting reserve. Perhaps the URL
in my previous post got chopped up. Here's a tiny version:
http://tinyurl.com/yr99zo
Skip
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--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Neon John wrote:
I'm unhappy with the current practice and techniques of precharging
the controller caps.
I'm using a 130v 75w light bulb as my precharge resistor. It precharges
in a fraction of a second; far faster than the recommended 750 ohm
resistor. Yet it still limits the current to a reasonable value.
The Zilla precharger uses a MOSFET to switch in a string of computer
power supply inrush limiters. Needs a little PC board with a dozen or so
parts.
Does that mean that you could use a mosfet-based SSR and a light-bulb?
The mosfet SSRs are two mosfets back-to-back, and should pass DC. It's
not uncommon to find one rated in the 10's of amps, cheap. Also, they're
isolated.
(snip)
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Karsten have you looked into kit cars ? there are bunches of styles and many
fit on vw chassis , I was reading about the way that ac propulsion made their
choice for the t-zero and found that he got a kit car that was light (fibre
glass body and went from there . I belive that if you include kit cars that
are already built and may be the orginal owner decided to move on or lost
interest you may get a good deal and still be light enough to convert to an ev
. one of the guys in the mnevaa is doing a wombat another a bradley gt me a
bradley gt2 lee hart a the sunrise . the kit cars are off the beaten path and
will take more seaarching but may pay bigger dividends .
----- Original Message -----
From: KARSTEN GOPINATH<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 12:49 AM
Subject: Re: Reading Material
Thanks. I appreciate it. I'm sure I will be asking more question once I
find a donor vehicle.
On Mar 8, 2007, at 10:02 PM, Roderick Wilde wrote:
> Karsten, At the moment there are only two choices of AC drives that
> are affordable. Contact Metric Mind at
www.metricmind.com<http://www.metricmind.com/> or Electro
> Automotive. www.electroauto.com<http://www.electroauto.com/> Both these
sources are great people
> who will be very helpful. If you want sources for AC drives that are
> unaffordable I am sure that there are many on this list who will be
> more than willing to help you with contact information. If you do have
> that much money I have some spare bridges I want to offload at an
> incredible bargain price :-)
>
> Roderick Wilde
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karsten Gopinath" <[EMAIL
PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>>
> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 9:15 PM
> Subject: Re: Reading Material
>
>
>> BIrds and Bees aside... Can you recommend some reading material I can
>> go through while I wait for my perfect donor vehicle to appear? A lot
>> of the material I'm going through seems a little dated. I'm finding
>> it hard trying to track down reading material on AC motors and
>> regeneration of power. Also trying to research some new battery
>> technology. Thanks for your help.
>> On Mar 8, 2007, at 9:03 PM, Roderick Wilde wrote:
>>
>>> A little something you may find of interest. Although there are some
>>> people in this world who are very good at assembling information
>>> there are other people in this world who are actually good at
>>> producing real things. Among these real things are electric
>>> conversions. I hate to be the one to burst your bubble about the
>>> idolization of Bob Brandt but the real truth is that he has never
>>> done an electric conversion in his lifetime on the planet Earth. I
>>> know that will come as a shock to many on this list including some
>>> old timers, but hey, reality is reality. For all you armchair
>>> converters/engineers you know exactly what I am talking about.
>>> First, I tell people that if you are intelligent enough to wire a
>>> flashlight you can build your own electric car. There is a negative
>>> side and a positive side. The bulb is the motor, the switch is a
>>> little more complicated and more like a light dimmer. You will want
>>> to have a fuse and a safety switch. It is one heck of a lot less
>>> complicated than auto mechanics.
>>> Here is a very interesting comparison for you. If you are a doctor
>>> you work on two models of human beings. They have eleven systems
>>> some of which are the skeletal system, a nervous system, a
>>> circulatory system, respiratory system, digestive system, etc, just
>>> to name a few. Now take the average automobile. They have the
>>> skeletal, (body/frame) fuel, heating, cooling, (drivetrain), engine,
>>> transmission, dirrerential, all called the drive train, suspension,
>>> fuel, computer, braking, etc. Now think about the knowledge in bits
>>> of information that it takes to understand all of these makes and
>>> models which change yearly. Remember that they are still making the
>>> same two models of humans year after year. I have even figured out
>>> how they do that :-)
>>> In the case of a doctor they have these two models, a male and a
>>> female, all systems the same except reproductive. Now you take the
>>> automobile, similar systems yet totally different for each year make
>>> and model. So many years out there and so many different models.
>>> They change all the time. From my experience in the field there is
>>> no way in hell you will do a successful transplant operation trying
>>> to put a Chevy clutch into a Saab. The very simple point that I have
>>> been elaborately trying to point out here is that an auto mechanic
>>> has to know many, many more bits of information than a doctor. Also,
>>> that electrics are so simple that a layman can work on them.
>>>
>>> Roderick Wilde
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "David Hrivnak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
>>> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>>
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 7:11 PM
>>> Subject: RE: Reading Material
>>>
>>>
>>>> I was very impressed with Bob Brant's Build your own electric
>>>> vehicle.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>>>> Behalf Of KARSTEN GOPINATH
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 5:58 PM
>>>> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>>>> Subject: Reading Material
>>>>
>>>> Hello I am researching building my electric car and I was wondering
>>>> whether anyone could recommend some reading material for me. I have
>>>> Convert It, Electric Vehicle Technology Explained, and Building your
>>>> own Electric Car. I am specifically interested in AC motors and
>>>> Lithium
>>>> Ion tech. Thanks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.8/714 - Release Date:
>>>> 3/8/2007 10:58 AM
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.8/714 - Release Date:
>> 3/8/2007 10:58 AM
>>
>
--- End Message ---
