EV Digest 6543
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: BugE again
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: datsun 1200
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Datsun 1200
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Motor mods
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Hybrid crash
by "George Swartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: SCCA Problems with Electrics
by "Roy Nutter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: SCCA Problems with Electrics
by "Roy Nutter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Economics of balancing amps
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: Hybrid Car Crash - Tacoma WA - 3/6/07
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Battery fumes
by Mike DeFelice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Battery Post Gooey Green Stuff
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: datsun 1200
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Battery Post Gooey Green Stuff
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Battery fumes
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Update on CivicWIthACord
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Nice AC motors on E-bay
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "David O'Neel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: BugE again
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2007 09:43:10 -0800
>Jerry,
>
>>And you expected different?
>
>Of course not, but due to the lack of information available
>, I have to use what IS available. I may be ignorant, but
>not stupid. Thanks for making me feel all warm and fuzzy
>inside. If you will look at my very next 3 words you will
>see that.
Sorry about that but it wasn't my intention. I was
just pointing out how hard, expensive it is to put a vehicle
that works together. And those hrs, materials need to be
paid for in the production or he'd go broke like so many
others have who didn't sell them for enough to stay in
business.
I've put probably 2,000 hrs into the Freedom EV. Do you
think I should get paid for them? The only way is charging
enough so I make a profit to pay those back who have helped
me and over the next yr or 2, get paid for all those hrs. To
do otherwise is not a good business plan or a way to get a
lot of EV's on the road.
I've studied most of the past EV companies and it's not
a pretty sight and have corrected their mistakes like not
going deeply in debt, good design, great after sales help
via internet group, multiple targeted groups to buy it and
fool proofing it. So when you look at a product, especially
a low production one, it's normally fairly high cost for the
above reasons.
To be honest, I could probably get twice the amount
I'm asking by putting them on
E-bay as EV demand is quite high and good no supply as
custom EV's.
>
>>>It is realistic, but unfortunate...
>
>>Just how many buyers do you think he needs?
>
>Frankly, I don't care how many buyers he needs, but the
>more the better right? I simply stated that with a higher
>price, there will be fewer buyers. Do you disagree?
No. Nor did I disagree with you that's it's too high
for you. Just what it is.
He will have a good number of buyers at that price I
believe. More than he probably can build so he is pricing it
to what the market will bear.
>
>>Others will assemble them probably with improvements.
>
>Yes, this is the whole reason I don't want to buy a
>completed unit since I am willing to sacrifice range for
>speed and power. Thats why I stated in the beginning I want
>to buy a kit. There's no sense in buying parts only to
>replace them right away. That is wasteful.
That's why I mention some other ways you could go
doing your own for much less money. I've put up many ways
for such low cost EV's. Personally I think some 8" steel
rim, 16" dia tires on a simple front suspension or one from
a larger ATV with a single rear drive wheel on a trailing
arm using a golf cart motor and 3 12v-130 amphr batts, a
simple bent panel aero body could be put together for under
$1k and hit 50 mph and go 60 miles range probably. But you'd
have to put the hrs in on it finding stuff, engineering,
building, testing it where bugE does all that work for you.
So it comes down to do you want to work or pay. Many prefer
to pay.
>
>>... not the Chinese, ect junk we have now that doesn't
>last more than a couple months.
>
>I have a Chinese motor kit on my bicycle right now and it
>works fine. I've been riding it for over a year and already
>put over 400 miles on it. It works as well as the day I
>installed it. (Wilderness Energy Crystal something motor..)
>In fact, the bike is falling apart around it.
I'm glad to hear it. It's not the norm though nor is
400 miles very far for an EV.
And hope it goes another 40,000 miles like my version
above will.
>
>>... as car costs go thru the roof like they are now.
>
>I can get a brand new Hyundai Accent for about $7500. How
>is that going through the roof? Thats cheap!
Not if it costs you $200-600/month to park it!! And a
Hyundai doesn't look anywhere near as cool. And it can't
drive pass all that rush hr traffic in the bicycle lane.
There are many places where a moped which this in many
states is that will easily beat a car in a commute. And much
easier to park like in a bike rack, MC space, odd corner and
fairly weather proof. So if it's worth it depends.
Thats
>basically the same price it was 5 years ago. No I am not
>going to get one even if they are only $5000 or $3000.
>
>> The difference is running costs.
>
>What about them? You provide nothing to go with that
>statement. To me the running costs are insignificant anyway
>, especially when compared to operating an ICE vehicle. It
>is the initial purchase cost that is the most significant
>cost.
A well set up light MC EV will easily be lower than
any car in running costs which is little more than battery,
tire costs vs gas, oil, tag, insurance, parking, ect, cost.
Electricity sould be under 35wthr/mile or $.003/mile for
$.10kwhr electricty. Even at 50 mpg that's at least
$.05/mile just in gas and just going higher.
I'm not saying it's for everyone or even you. In fact I
wonder why you care if you don't like it's price. Wouldn't a
better thing be asking how to buy or do one less expensively
than his?
>
>I hate to bring this up now, but I can't help but feel that
>participating here on the EVDL is not a fun thing to do. I
>have tried several times to share my (minimal) knowledge
>and opinion, and EVERY time someone comes along with a
>negative attitude to try and discredit me and my *opinion*.
We were just showing you some facts, nothing more. And
just as you have an opinion, so does most everyone one else.
Add to that e mail is a rather hard to express form makes
it seem more harsh than it is.
But we are here to give facts to EVer's so most any
piece of info is questioned, many times just to inform
others who are reading a post of the details. My answers are
actually more for others than the postee, explaining things
more deeply, like how hard it really is to do an EV
business, that some postee's take the wrong way.
Any good info, training takes work and the EVDL is a
Uni level education in EV's.
>I have belonged to many online forums, but this is unique
>to this list. I can see why many of the long-time
>professional EVers I know do not participate. I think I
>will follow their example: read, but do not write. It's too
>bad it took me this long to figure it out.
It's a milder one than other lists I'm on. Real
professionals like the list on technical terms. Most who are
not on it just can't take the time to keeps up.
But you get out of it what you put in I've found. If
you are here to learn the correct way to do EV's, it's a
great list.
Jerry Dycus
>
>Regards,
>Dave O.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's a very practical & sturdy car. 5 people fit. It's all metal except
for the crappy front map holder. I replaced mine with ABS plastic. Looked
like stock. Wayland would approve. My girl at the time made me get rid of
it. I regret it to this day. Simple and durable. I replaced the rearend
on it myself. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: datsun 1200
> On Mar 10, 2007, at 10:50 PM, KARSTEN GOPINATH wrote:
>
> > I am debating between a 240z and a Datsun 1200 both same conditon and
> > same price. Which would be easier to convert? I know that White Zombie
> > is a Datsun 1200. Is that a pretty light chassis to start with? Any
> > pitfalls with the 1200 or the 240z I should know about. Thanks.
>
> I'd go with the 1200 based on weight. If you start with a lighter car
> the same performance or range or conversion cost will be less.
>
> Now if you happen to really like 240z's, or dislike 1200's, that has to
> effect your decision too! I just chose to ignore weight and start on a
> Datsun 411 (its not that heavy, around 2100 lb.) If you're going to go
> to the effort and cost of converting a car it needs to be one you like!
>
> Paul "neon" G.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> (2) Get the 1200, learn from my mistakes (all listed the 'White Zombie
> History' pages) do the right performance mods, add a few new ones of
> your own, and go tear it up at the drag strip.
> (4) Get the 1200 and build a fun, spunky street sedan with minimal costs
> involved.
>
> See Ya...John Wayland
If the 1200 is available as a fast back are there rigidity crossmembers
available for behind the rear seat or would you have to make up some?
Lawrence Rhodes........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
G'day All
Heed the tales of caution....
At 08:08 AM 11/03/07 -0700, Jim wrote:
Morning Evil, all
Ahh we meet again my little down under motor hacker
8^P You know I'm starting to think you're a sadist,
lmao! I mean for God's sake man, you know how I am
and you keep giving me ammo! You know I thought you
were being aweful quite down there 8^o
Hey, it was the weekend so I slept in...
<snip>
You know I can't either so I went to wikipedia and
they have a great write up, <snip>
Actually their deffinition confirms to me my useage of
this term when addressing James!
Hey, more a Bizarro than a twin!
<snip the fun story> Anyway it takes a
lot to cook a set of coils.
Possible real cause of coils being burnt are as
follows:
They threw them in a burnout oven, not a bake oven
Their bake oven is an insulated box with some elements they switch it on
when they shove something in there and switch it off when it starts to
stink/smoke/get back in the morning/whatever. Thermostat? these guys work
like it is still 1954!
They just left them outside in the sun down there.
Nah, too close to Antarctica where I am (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasmania if anyone is interested).
That motor is a cousin of an MKZ.
Maybe, totally enclosed, non-ventilated, 4.5hp 9". 22 field turns, all in
series so possibly.
That shops boss thinks James is a butthead.
Nah, they think James is who to call on when they have a problem (like when
they put a coil back into a 3-phase transformer upside down and couldn't
work out why the breaker kept tripping!).
They burnt due to low batteries and plain old abuse.
Wouldn't have helped, but the motor guy did admit to his oops.
Anyway aren't you guys glad I got all of "my" evil out
when I was young, LMAO!
I thought yoy were just starting to let it out (splicing motors together is
hardly normal behaviour)
> So I sent the fields to another shop <snip>
Okay this proves to me that you are in fact a sadist!
Couldn't they have just scratched off the insulation
to have got that info?
Of couse they could, especially since I told them "go a bit bigger in cross
section, an lower turns" so they didn't need to know *exactly* how big!
Maybe my first boss shoulda
sent those coils down to you boys for a little BBQ
party, LMAO!
:^) anytime!
Another fine example of where a quick write to me
could have saved a little pain, BTW how much they
charge you to cook up your coils ROFLMAO!
Hey, they did that for FREE!
You know what? screw the pics I want video!!! LMAO!
Why, you planning on winning Funniest Videos at my expense? I want a
contract to go halves in those winnings before you see MY videos!..
Being that this motor may in fact have an MKZ field
coil issue using a little less coil might be a good
thing here.
22 turns down to 12 is a big step, though...
Man I can't catch a break here, see how he puts it off
like it's all my fault and he can't do anything more
until I get off my lazy butt. I'm surprised that he
didn't type "get" my care package, hehehe.
Hey any excuse, gives me a chance to play with something else...
You know I just contacted Lee yesterday asking if he
knew where I could unload those plugs you sent me for
that last care pack I sent you. Luckily I won't have
to pay him much to take them 8^P
Great! more junk to clutter up Lees' workshop.
You know if I didn't know better I'd almost believe
that Australia was founded by a bunch of thieves and
criminals! 8^P
Not all of it, we have this invisible "Mason-Dixon line" across the state -
criminals to the south (where the government is), free settlers to the
north (I'm in the north).
Another life ago story is I used to do these 8 pole
Porter Peerless motors. They had a coil wire of
something like 1" X .010" and the wire was just not
available without buying a spool costing thousands of
bucks. I ended up subbing them out to a place who
specialized in that motor. They unwound each coil and
rewound it up with a sandwiched layer of Nomex and
they came out very nice.
That is about what I'd planned to do, shed a few turns and layer in the
Nomex, but then I found out what they'd done for free for me...
Anyway when you get a minute to post some pics I'd
like to have a look and make sure you aren't going to
have to backtrack any more than you have already.
Matter of fact I ain't sending you the FusaFab till
you do, so I can make sure you aren't gonna just waste
it, LMAO!
Call it a feeling but I don't think we're done with
this thread quite yet 8^o
Had fun keep me posted!
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Rice, send me the address of the impound yard and I will go check it
out, if I can. George E. Swartz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich is right it was Bromine not Benzene....Roy
>>> "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 3/9/2007 12:30 PM >>>
It was a liquid Bromine battery that I heard about.
And a NimH one caught fire in the pits.
This is all back in the mid 90s at the APS races.
Many moons ago...
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2007 8:38 AM
Subject: Re: SCCA Problems with Electrics
> David,
>
> Thanks for posting this link. It is a fun thread.
>
> >
<http://sccaforums.com/forums/permalink/222005/221933/ShowThread.aspx#221933
>
> > Quoted from http://www.sccaforums.com:
> > Two years ago at the SCCA convention someone brought up the idea in
> > the main Town Hall meeting about electric race cars. He basically
> > sort of accused the SCCA of not bothering to care about electric race
> > cars in general and said we needed to be exploring it. Then
> > someone from Arizona (IIRC) said their region had several folks who had
> > tried electric race cars but that they had several have battery
> > meltdowns on track and they were banned from at least one track because
> > of the damage and cleanup problems from this kind of failure. I
> > can only imagine that even if you got the necessary monitoring down to
> > prevent this that you'd still have to worry about the problems caused
> > by wrecks.
>
> Let's see what the shared knowledge of the EV list can answer whether
> battery powered cars are dangerous to track surfaces.
>
> The most obvious suspect is flooded lead acid batteries. I have not worked
> with these much. I know not to get the acid in my eyes, on my clothes, on
my
> tender bits (and I do not think I want to know how some one found that
> out<G>) but what about splashed on the skin? Does it hurt? How quickly do
> you need to wash off the acid? Will it kill me? Will water cure me?
>
> What about a spill on the track? Will it damage the pavement? Will it
> discolor the pavement? How quickly? Will water get rid of the problem?
>
> I know there are a number of Arizona list members. Have any of you heard
> about battery powered cars damaging a race track?
>
> I have a vague recollection that at one of the APS EV races, there was a
> sodium sulfur battery pack that cracked open. The sodium sulfur battery
had
> an operating range of 572 to 673 degrees F. If the hot electrolyte spilled
> on the track, that might do some serious damage. Where ever I heard the
> story mentioned a nice cloud of toxic smoke. Anybody know the facts?
>
> Any other suspects? The only other battery that I can think of that has
> enough liquid to spill is nickel-cadmium. Anyone using EV ni-cads have
> answers about how dangerous to pavement or persons a spill is?
>
> Cliff
> www.ProEV.com
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chip:
I think it was a benzine based battery at Phoenix International in about 1994
during a SERA race. (Solar Electric Racing Association, no longer exists) Have
heard of NO problems since then at all. We (Formula Lightning crashed (T-boned
actually) two FL's with Optimas at Cleveland CART race venue. Trashed the side
pod full of Optimas. NO problems at all really. diapered the cars and brought
them in on hooks. Batteries lost next to no fluid at all. Set broken batteries
in dish pans. Nothing at all ran out even then. I really thin the batteries
could have been used except the plastic cases were broken away. :-)
...Roy Nutter
>>> Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 3/9/2007 2:15 PM >>>
I wouldn't think floodeds would cause much damage to a race track
unless it is made of cotton. Isn't most of it concentrated with water
anyway? I haven't tried this or want to but I've read that it is
actually safe to dip your finger in a cell, like a US Battery or
Trojan flooded battery. It won't burn your skin off to the bone. Just
make sure to rinse off afterwards. I'm sure I've got some spilled on
my skin filling the batteries or cleaning them. I know it will eat up
jeans. I have several pairs to prove it. But a track, I don't think
it would eat it up if it was rinsed off thoroughly following a spill
along with baking soda to neutralize the acid.
Now I have noticed that when I left an old flooded battery on my
garage floor for awhile it started eating away at the concrete. I
didn't realize it had a small hole in it and was leaking. So yes I
have seen the acid eat away at concrete. That was over period of a
couple months. It ruined the surface of my garage floor where the
battery sat.
But in an accident if it was rinsed off a concrete or asphalt track
immediately with water and baking soda to neutralize the acid it
should be OK. It shouldn't cause permanent damage.
I'm sure it's not as bad as spilling oil, gas or grease which
requires chemicals or absorbant materials to get up. And a trace or
stain would still be left behind. With spilling oil it gets all in
the pores of the asphalt and resurfaces during a rainstorm and makes
the road slippery. So there are long lasting effects with spilling oil.
I wouldn't want to competitively race a vehicle in a slalom event
anyway with floodeds. They are heavy and the water sloshing around
inside the batteries would cause a car to roll more in the turns. But
there are times when you don't have a choice. Like taking your
commuter EV with floodeds for a fun jaunt in a slalom course. The
slaloms are fun so I see no reason to ban floodeds if the cars pass a
technical inspection and are held down and contained in the passenger
compartment. The biggest thing is the hold downs. Cars using fabric
hold down straps you get at Lowes wouldn't be safe. I can see SCCA
banning floodeds since that is more competitive. But for our slalom
events I would allow them if they are securely held down and don't
pose a problem with the weight causing the vehicle to tip easily.
NESEA would test the cars to see if they would roll too much before
the Tour de Sol. You had to go around a corner at a set speed and
judges would observe to see if the vehicles were safely cornering.
Those vehicle that looked like they would tip too easily were pulled
out.
Now sulfur sodium and batteries that have high operating
temperaturers, that is another story altogether. Li-Pos are dry so
that wouldn't be a problem.
I would like to know what battery chemistry was used on that Arizona
track.
Chip Gribben
On Mar 9, 2007, at 11:38 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
> From: "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: March 9, 2007 11:38:08 AM EST
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Subject: Re: SCCA Problems with Electrics
>
>
> David,
>
> Thanks for posting this link. It is a fun thread.
>
>> <http://sccaforums.com/forums/permalink/222005/221933/
>> ShowThread.aspx#221933>
>> Quoted from http://www.sccaforums.com:
>> Two years ago at the SCCA convention someone brought up the idea in
>> the main Town Hall meeting about electric race cars. He basically
>> sort of accused the SCCA of not bothering to care about electric race
>> cars in general and said we needed to be exploring it. Then
>> someone from Arizona (IIRC) said their region had several folks
>> who had
>> tried electric race cars but that they had several have battery
>> meltdowns on track and they were banned from at least one track
>> because
>> of the damage and cleanup problems from this kind of failure. I
>> can only imagine that even if you got the necessary monitoring
>> down to
>> prevent this that you'd still have to worry about the problems caused
>> by wrecks.
>
> Let's see what the shared knowledge of the EV list can answer
> whether battery powered cars are dangerous to track surfaces.
>
> The most obvious suspect is flooded lead acid batteries. I have not
> worked with these much. I know not to get the acid in my eyes, on
> my clothes, on my tender bits (and I do not think I want to know
> how some one found that out<G>) but what about splashed on the
> skin? Does it hurt? How quickly do you need to wash off the acid?
> Will it kill me? Will water cure me?
>
> What about a spill on the track? Will it damage the pavement? Will
> it discolor the pavement? How quickly? Will water get rid of the
> problem?
>
> I know there are a number of Arizona list members. Have any of you
> heard about battery powered cars damaging a race track?
>
> I have a vague recollection that at one of the APS EV races, there
> was a sodium sulfur battery pack that cracked open. The sodium
> sulfur battery had an operating range of 572 to 673 degrees F. If
> the hot electrolyte spilled on the track, that might do some
> serious damage. Where ever I heard the story mentioned a nice cloud
> of toxic smoke. Anybody know the facts?
>
> Any other suspects? The only other battery that I can think of that
> has enough liquid to spill is nickel-cadmium. Anyone using EV ni-
> cads have answers about how dangerous to pavement or persons a
> spill is?
>
> Cliff
> www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill
I have been using a system that does what you have listed 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7
below going on four years. It also provides live readings of the voltage and
SOC of every battery. The temperature of the pack in six locations. Adjust the
temperature of the ambient air coming in if needed. Circulates air in the
pack to achieve uniform temperature. Adjusts the amount of air flow to
maintain the temperature. Will not allow any battery to go below voltage
during use.
Gives warnings before going into battery protection limit and retains
information on what battery or batteries are causing the fault. It also does a
lot
more but for all it does it could be improved on with a better balancing
system.
I took a serious look at regulators and found they will not work for my
situation. My batteries are not easily accessed so that by itself eliminates
using them. The regulators need to be used where you can easily get to in
order
to monitor and adjust them.
I was also surprised to learn regulators are not as failure free as one
would hope. If one goes out you do not just lose the regulator it will most
likely cost you a battery as well. They also are not fool proof. If you do not
keep a regular watch of them any that get out of adjustment could also cost
you
more batteries. They also need to be adjusted as the batteries age.
Regulators are not inexpensive with a 312 volt system of 26 batteries the cost
is 1200
dollars.
It is only when you can closely do live individual monitoring of the
batteries during use and charging that you will see how a balancer would be
very
beneficial. In the last 4 years I have gone well over 32,000 electric miles.
There were many miles traveled that I would have really liked to have put a
charge the low batteries in transit. I can see the value of a balancer that
works not only when charging but also while your driving the vehicle.
Don
In a message dated 3/6/2007 11:00:46 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Your reply makes no sense to me. I don't think you understand what is
commonly meant when we speak of a "BMS."
The typical BMS will sense battery (or cell) voltage, and
then by-pass or transfer charge as needed. Sometimes the BMS will
sense temperature too. In addition to by-passing or transferring
charge, the BMS might signal the charger (or controller) to shut off,
or cut back because of some out-of-bounds condition that it has sensed.
The charger provides the current for charging (and
purposeful overcharging) not the BMS.
A typical (intelligent charging system) sequence for
charging when a BMS is present on AGM lead-acid is as follows:
1) Bulk charge at normal current until the BMS signals one or more
batteries are at the voltage limit.
2) Cut back the charge current to what the BMS can by-pass.
3) Continue at reduced current until all batteries have reached the
"full" voltage.
4) Hold at the specified pack voltage until the current tapers off to
the specified level (like an amp or less.)
5) Signal the battery regulators to switch off (or switch up to
"finish" voltage.)
6) Switch the charger to constant current mode and push the specified
finish current though the batteries until the correct percentage of
overcharge amp-hrs has gone into the batteries.
7) All done.
The BMS need not be able to by-pass (or transfer) more than
the difference in self-discharge or difference in charge efficiency.
It need not be able to by-pass more than an amp, maybe two. A bypass
system typically needs to be able to handle more current than a
transfer (continuous) system because you don't want to extend the
charge period excessively. You size the by-pass current to pass the
expected amp-hr imbalance in, say, 30 minutes. Thus, an amp or two is
adequate. If the BMS is very intelligent, and is built to sense
voltage differences during the bulk charge, the by-pass current can
be even lower, because it has more time to correct any imbalance.
A continuous system has all day and all night to transfer
the expected amp-hr imbalance. Thus, a fraction of an amp is all that
is typically needed.
Of course, the numbers and steps all change with the battery
chemistry. The above example is for AGM lead-acid.
Bill Dube'
At 02:32 PM 3/5/2007, you wrote:
>
>Hello Bill
>
>A couple of factors your over looking.
>
>AGM and NiMH batteries do get out of balance. Most BMS systems address this
>by applying a slight over charge to all the batteries. Batteries are not
all
>perfect some fail very soon others a little later then the rest.
>
>You are not giving any value to the effect of not taking all the good
>batteries and exposing them to the highest level of charge they can
>possibly take.
>
>So not are you only bringing up the lowest batteries your also keeping your
>best batteries good longer. One might be able to replace a few
>failed modules
>and retain the others because of less over charging. It is a better
charging
>algorithm not to kill your best modules in order to just bring up a few
low
>ones. The ones that are going to fail before the others do
>no matter how they
>are charged.
>
>The greatest cost of running an EV is the batteries. A thousand dollars up
>front is going to save for years. A great value of the balancer is
>the damage
>you do not have from years of over charging them.
>
>Don
>
>
>
>In a message dated 3/5/2007 11:22:11 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
>It is "penny wise and pound foolish" to implement a continuous
>balancing system that pushes around a large number of amps. Once you
>do the accounting, you discover that it costs you more than you save
>if you push around much more than an amp with a continuous type BMS.
>
>The key to this is that individual "bad" batteries in a pack don't
>typically "fail" slowly, but rather quickly. Propping up a failing
>battery by feeding it significant charge through the BMS increases
>its life span just a few percent. When you compare the cost of the
>earlier failed individual battery replacement, with the cost of
>increasing the transfer amperage of the BMS, you discover you are
>spending a lot of money to save a few pennies.
>
>The BMS needs to cover the expected differences in charge efficiency
>and self-discharge plus a reasonable margin. That's it. It also
>should flag a weak battery, (like a "check engine" light) so you know
>you'd better replace it soon.
>
>It is different in an application where you cannot easily replace a
>bad battery, like in a spacecraft, or a combat vehicle. However, a
>daily driver EV is not that sort of application.
>
>Bill Dube'
>
>
>
>
>At 10:53 AM 3/5/2007, you wrote:
> >Lee Hart said:
> >
> >"Start with two batteries at different states of charge. Connect them
> >directly in parallel -- they instantly go to the same voltage!"
> >
> >Mick says: Check. The paralleled batteries instantly display an average
> >voltage. There is still a subtle delta-v, however, and that drives energy
> >movement until the batteries match. The current drops, the
> delta-v drops and
> >the battery differences approach zero. This does take time but eventually
> >results in near perfect equalization. The battery differences cannot
vanish
> >unless the amperage transfer and the delta-v also vanish.
> >
> >Once the batteries "settle out at the same state of charge" (to use Lee's
> >phrase), one battery is no longer trying to finish charge the other one.
> >Lee's hypothetical paralleled batteries would then share any
> >charge/discharge energy evenly, and there will never be a need to move x
> >number of amp-hours from one paralleled battery to the other.
> >
> >If you clip a load onto the terminals of one battery which is
> parallel with
> >another, its voltage drops slightly compared to the other one, but the
> >difference can never become very great. As soon as the delta-v increases
> >energy moves through the parallel cables so that a state of charge
> >difference does not develop and no subsequent amp hour restoration is
> >needed. A BattEQ equipped series string behaves much the same as if the
> >batteries were in parallel, provided that the balancer is
> properly sized for
> >the application.
> >
> >Lee said: "It only takes a small amount of force to keep something
balanced
> >that is already almost perfectly balanced."
> >
> >Mick says: The word "force" is very appropriate. Instead of waiting until
> >big "state of charge" differences have developed, BattEQ applies
continual
> >force which scales up as needed to prevent SOC differences from
occurring.
> >The PowerCheq(TM) product is similar in this regard, but the biggest
> >PowerCheq can only pump in the same power range as the smallest BattEQ
> >devices. Two amps of balancing current is fine for relatively small
> >batteries, but drive packs for golf carts or bigger would
> require the bigger
> >BattEQ units.
> >
> >Lee said:
> >"For batteries that are well matched, or that aren't used much, you'll
> >have enough time for a low balance current to work." He later
> said: "...when
> >there are extenuating circumstances...the number of amphours needed to
> >restore balance gets larger. That's where higher power balancers like my
> >battery balancer come into play."
> >
> >Mick says: Please do not equate BattEQ with "low balance current"
> and please
> >do not categorically state that other solutions are "higher power". I
have
> >BattEQ units in stock which can pump 16 amps out from each channel
> >continuously. This can be verified by those who take the trouble. If
that's
> >not enough, additional units could be added in parallel. Even with a big
> >balancer, the current goes no higher than that required to
> maintain balance.
> >As soon as one monobloc tries to outperform or under perform, the
> group will
> >receive "energy discipline" which scales up or down with the delta-v.
With
> >unruly batteries, the balance current will ramp up until things realign
or
> >until the design limit of the balancer is reached.
> >
> >Even when the battery is being recharged, BattEQ does not burn off excess
> >energy through heat dissipation. Instead it pumps that into the monoblocs
> >that need it. With BattEQ one cannot detect high power in the form of
hot
> >dissipaters atop a battery bank, because instead the power is
> going into the
> >weak monoblocs to improve the balancing process.
> >
> >Lee said: "For an EV, your "daily drive" will produce some degree of
> >imbalance. This can be expressed by how many amphours difference is
> >required to bring each battery back to the same state of charge. Then,
you
> >need a balancing system that can produce this much charge differential
per
> >day."
> >
> >Mick says: Lee's description above would be correct only if the
balancing
> >system is deployed after the daily drive is complete. However, because
> >BattEQ works 24/7 the battery doesn't develop imbalances to be corrected
> >later with "10's of amp hours". Since BattEQ pumps energy in real time to
> >maintain alignment, the balancing game becomes one of instantaneous
energy
> >transfer instead of amp-hour restoration after the fact. So long as the
> >instantaneous energy transfer is sufficient, there's never a need
> to correct
> >an accumulated state of charge deficit.
> >
> >Mick Abraham
> >www.abrahamsolar.com
>
>
>
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 11 Mar 2007 at 11:14, Roland Wiench wrote:
> My body shop just received a Prius to be work on. The owner and manual said
> it
> is recommended to [disconnect] the battery by removing a cable [from] the
> battery
> pack before you work on this car, WHY?
My guess is to avoid induced surge. A Toyota service tech told me that he
won't weld anything on a Prius because "we did that once and it fried all
the computers." Of course he may have been, uh, blowing smoke.
Actually, though, I think this question would be better answered by people
who really know the Prius. I suggest joing the Prius Tech Group on Yahoo.
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Prius_Technical_Stuff/
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can anyone elaborate on the amount of sulfuric acid vapor (fumes) that is
produced during normal charging of a flooded lead acid battery? Is the amount
produced from 20 6v batteries being charged in a residential neighborhood
considered an emission (i.e. compared to the exhaust and/or evaporative fumes
of a gas car)?
Also, any comparisons with vapors produced by AGM batteries?
In my limited experience with your forum I haven't experienced this topic
being discussed.
Is there a preferred battery vapor recapture/automatic watering device for
use with EVs?
---------------------------------
Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
always stay connected to friends.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello everybody:
What is that green stuff I found around a few of my battery posts?
Needless to say, I am talking floodies here :)
mm./
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The z is only designed for two passengers. It's built to the edge. The
1200 was a workhorse for four passengers. I suspect the gross vehicle
weight ratio is better in the 1200. Lawrence Rhodes........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a word, corrosion. It's caused by sulfuric acid
mist reacting with the post and the copper
interconnect. Baking soda + water will get rid of it.
If it is building up quickly, your batteries are
going. If not, treat with NoCote, or vaseline after
cleanup. It increases the resistance between your
connections.
--- Michaela Merz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hello everybody:
>
> What is that green stuff I found around a few of my
> battery posts?
> Needless to say, I am talking floodies here :)
>
> mm./
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The mist is actually pretty sparse! If you lost lots,
you'd be adding sulfuric acid, instead of water, and
your range would suffer quite rapidly! So generally,
you're losing _hydrogen_, and replacing it (water).
Obviously, anyone who cleans the tops of their
floodies will say that there is acid there, and
they're right, but when it's ml...
You lose more in the hygrometer when you're checking
them-- put it that way!
On the other hand, a rotten egg smell is hydrogen
sulfide, which tells you that you have a bad cell.
Hope that helps,
--- Mike DeFelice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Can anyone elaborate on the amount of sulfuric
> acid vapor (fumes) that is produced during normal
> charging of a flooded lead acid battery? Is the
> amount produced from 20 6v batteries being charged
> in a residential neighborhood considered an emission
> (i.e. compared to the exhaust and/or evaporative
> fumes of a gas car)?
>
> Also, any comparisons with vapors produced by AGM
> batteries?
>
> In my limited experience with your forum I haven't
> experienced this topic being discussed.
>
> Is there a preferred battery vapor
> recapture/automatic watering device for use with
> EVs?
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
> always stay connected to friends.
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey!
This journey has been one heck of a ride this
winter. Specifically, Murphy's law of EVs says that
when batteries fail, it will be in winter. First my
Raptor 600 failed. Since it has been long
discontinued (suspected culprit is condensation), I
upgraded to the 1200. (Apparently much more
reliable).
The last I posted about my own car, it was
frustration over what I perceived to be either a
battery issue, or a charger issue. Well, it was
definitely batteries. I will not elaborate now, as
much has been posted on the topic lately. (Trojan v.
USB; how long to hold the finish voltage, just to name
a couple).
So now I have so much power at my disposal, I
could switch packs to AGM batteries and race at
Woodburn, but will keep my max current control at
1/2-way, so as to keep my current draw on the flooded
batteries at a safe level for them.
When I replaced the batteries, I used 165 Ah
batteries, instead of 178. Doing so left me with
neater battery tops on charging, and 70 pounds in
saved weight, so slightly shorter braking distances.
(Losing a slight amount of range is not critical in my
case; I'd need lithium or nickel to do my
once-per-month long haul anyway).
I still say that the Civic is perfect for 144V
conversions. Part of me really wants to do another,
so I can do component mount templates, and package
them with my video. I just don't trust GM to get the
Volt on the road... Besides, Mike Brown said it took
him two cars to get everything just perfect with his
conversions & accompanying manual.
Doing another conversion would also let me:
- purchase a Belkin DCDC converter and give their
product a trial run in real-world conditions.
- mount my E-meter on the pillar, instead of the side
window adjusting knockout.
- try an EX model (has power door locks, windows, and
sunroof).
- try a 2 x 1 x 2 firewall battery rack configuration
- try a 9" ADC motor. No, I don't _need_ more torque,
but they got both of those two accomplished in Jeremy
Phillip's del Sol...
- change my charging pigtail from a 6-30 (3 conductor,
240V outlet with 120V capability), to a 4- cond 240V
outlet, which won't set off GFCIs.
(You'll note these are incredibly minor changes, but
that's the nature of my journey right now).
- film more of the step-by-step process. That in
turn, would merit a higher selling price for the DVD,
and supplemental materials.
I'm bummed when I think about the concept of selling
this ride, but I do enjoy the converting process
immensely, and I MISS IT!
Stay charged!
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for earth-friendly autos?
Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Siemens motor encoders consist of a pair of hall effect sensors
and two 64 teeth gears offset by 90' to provide quadrature output
that allow to detect rotation direction not only the speed.
If you would see it you will realize it is slightly more robust
system than $0.50 HP printer encoder. If Hughes chose to use them
and they are automotive grate, than means HP printers' encoders
are way overkill, but I doubt HP will spend a 1/2 extra penny
for a consumer product.
Victor
Dale Ulan wrote:
By 'encoder', do you mean the $0.50 optical rpm sensor from HP printers?
That is what is used on the Hughes 50kW AC motors as used on US Electricar.
Well, yea. But you have to mount it and mount an encoder wheel, all the
little things that add up. Although I thought that Siemens used a larger
wheel and hall-effect sensing like on a lot of ICE crankshaft position
sensors. Check out the price of a Leeson or Baldor with and without
an encoder.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
