EV Digest 6576
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Live from PIR, Fireball Incident
by "Adrian DeLeon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Bumpers
by "Brian M. Sutin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Datsun motor adapter?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: charging while driving question
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: charging while driving question
by Finn John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) How I am planning to use NiMH (construction in progress right now)
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Live from PIR, Fireball Incident
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Fwd: Thanks for front page coverage!
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: charging while driving question
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Mike Willmons shaft question
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Better Data Logging Options?
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: NiMH Battery Packs in Parallel
by "Mick Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: charging while driving question
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: Live from PIR, Fireball Incident
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Would any EV groups like a "motor info" FAQ's page?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Better Data Logging Options?
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: charging while driving question
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: charging while driving question
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: NiMH Battery Packs in Parallel
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 10:18:26 -0800, Jim Husted wrote:
Actually what I'm hoping you felt was the armature
rubbing against the poleshoes on that back side.
[snip]
In fact being that at least one full 3rd of that motor
is just hanging there unmounted, which I know I have
told both you and John about a few times.
I wonder if this could be the cause of the "mysterious vibration" I've
heard talked about? Was that speed sucking vibration ever tracked down?
-Adrian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I replaced my Alfa bumpers with sugarpine 2x4's. No one seems to care
except NEDRA.
Brian
http://www.skewray.com/alfa
> I was wondering if anyone has any experience or insight into the
> consequences of removing the 5 mph bumpers on my Fiat 124 and
> replacing them with the pre 1975 bumpers [...snip...]
--
Brian M. Sutin, Ph.D. Space System Engineering and Optical Design
Skewray Research/316 W Green St/Claremont CA 91711 USA/(909) 621-3122
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
An MG 1600 head is interchangable with the 1300 motor. Many a MG 1600
twoseater had Nissan heads. Maybe the trannys are copied too. The Japanese
of that time sometimes copied exactly. LR..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 4:25 PM
Subject: Datsun motor adapter?
> I'm trying to get a handle on what I require to stick a motor into my
> '66 Datsun 411. Obviously, I can't just go to the EV parts suppliers
> and ask for that - I need to figure out what its *like*.
>
> I've been searching the web for information about Datsun engine and
> transmission swaps. There is lots of info out there but most of it
> centers on the engine mounts or transmission mounts. If anyone is aware
> of a site that centers more on the engine mounting and/or bellhousing
> patterns please share it with me. An interchange list of that should
> allow me to ask for something "normal." Adapters are available off the
> shelf for a number of Datsun/Nissan vehicles.
>
> I suspect this will be pretty easy, once I figure out what to ask for.
> Lots of people (including Plasma Boy) have stuffed Z-car, or other
> Datsun 5 speeds into older Datsuns. The J13 engine in my 411 was also
> used in a number of early Datsun Pickups and some of those have been
> converted. The J13 engine is also similar to the A12 engine used in the
> Datsun 1200 series (and John still runs the 4-speed in the Blue
> Meanie.)
>
> Any help would be appreciated, even if you don't have *all* the
> answers. If a number of people can give me some answers I can hopefully
> put them together.
>
> Paul "neon" G.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 20 Mar 2007 at 21:25, John Fisher wrote:
> Can you plug the charger into the output of the genset and charge while you
> are driving off the battery pack?
Depends on how you define "charge." In most cases, unless you are driving
very slowly, the battery will continue to discharge because the genset will
offset only part of the power required to keep the car moving.
Considerations :
1. The above.
2. Typical home gensets are horribly inefficient, especially cheap ones.
3. Typical low cost home gensets are meant to be used only very
occasionally. If used regularly, they will wear quickly and the engine will
have to be rebuilt.
4. I've read that many can't produce full output for any appreciable length of
time.
5. They're gross polluters. They emit horrendous amounts of unburned
hydrocarbons.
Your existing ICE will be cleaner and more efficient - even if it's a heavy
truck
or SUV. I seriously suggest that you stick to driving that until you can
afford
to build an EV which will have enough range to serve at least a substantial
portion of your regular transportation needs. You'll waste less energy and
pollute MUCH less.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Homeowner-grade generators can't keep up, 'tis true. Even if they could, for me
the deal-breaker would be the bloody racket. There's a reason we don't drive
souped-up lawn tractors back and forth to work! Who wants to listen to a
12-horse Tecumseh screaming at 3600 through a pitifully inadequate muffler all
the way to work and back? Not me!
But here's a thought: If you keep a small generator in the back seat of the
car, you can probably use it in an emergency to put some power back in your
batteries while you sip coffee in a nearby diner if the thing leaves you high
and dry. (Assuming your charger is a 110-volt unit, that is.) Having this
option might make you more comfortable using a car with, say, 30 mile range for
a 25-mile trip, knowing that if it craps out you won't be stuck calling for a
tow. So it's not necessarily a bad idea, I don't think. Those little lawnmower
motors do pour out the pollutants, though, especially the ones with L-head
engines. Do try to find one with an OHV setup at least.
Good luck! Have fun!
--Finn (super new, NOT an expert, just sharing my thoughts)
----- Original Message ----
From: David Roden (Akron OH USA) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 11:22:07 PM
Subject: Re: charging while driving question
On 20 Mar 2007 at 21:25, John Fisher wrote:
> Can you plug the charger into the output of the genset and charge while you
> are driving off the battery pack?
Depends on how you define "charge." In most cases, unless you are driving
very slowly, the battery will continue to discharge because the genset will
offset only part of the power required to keep the car moving.
Considerations :
1. The above.
2. Typical home gensets are horribly inefficient, especially cheap ones.
3. Typical low cost home gensets are meant to be used only very
occasionally. If used regularly, they will wear quickly and the engine will
have to be rebuilt.
4. I've read that many can't produce full output for any appreciable length of
time.
5. They're gross polluters. They emit horrendous amounts of unburned
hydrocarbons.
Your existing ICE will be cleaner and more efficient - even if it's a heavy
truck
or SUV. I seriously suggest that you stick to driving that until you can
afford
to build an EV which will have enough range to serve at least a substantial
portion of your regular transportation needs. You'll waste less energy and
pollute MUCH less.
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There has been a lot of discussion about NiMH, and I have mentioned some plans
to use it. I am in fact getting ready to install a few strings very soon.
Here is what I am doing and why I expect it to work.
1. I am keeping the AGM pack to help regulate the min / max voltage of each
group of NiMH cells.
2. I am building short strings (21 cells each), of fully tested / well
balanced cells.
3. For any given string, I put a diode (actually several in parallel) in
series with it to only allow discharge only.
4. Also in series with the 21 cells and diode is a 20 - 30 Amp fuse. I plan
to replace the fuse with a 13 A polyswitch as soon as they arrive. That (13 A)
is 1C for the F cells that I am using.
5. That is the complete plan as far as discharging goes. I don't see any
issues stacking up 4-6 of these 21 cell strings across each pair of Group 24
AGMs.
... Charging ... I haven't completely worked this out yet, but below is the
plan.
6. First, I am limiting the charge voltage of the strings to 13.2 * 2 = 26.4
V which on average is 1.26 V / cell. They are not fully charged, not even
close. That is key to making this work.
7. I plan to put the 4-6 groups of 21 cells each in parallel, each connected
to the common charger, each through through its own 1 A fuse. That limits the
current into each string to 1 A. Or, current between any two strings to 2 A.
I plan to use a fast blow fuse. If cross current goes over 2 A, the low
voltage string simply drops out (permanently until the issue is resolved and
fuse is replaced). I only charge the strings with a nominal 1 A per string, 5A
for a string of 5, up to a fixed voltage of 26.4 V.
8. If this doesn't work, or it is too slow because of my 26.4 V termination
voltage, I will put 25 A relays in the string, 3 relays per string. One relay
every 7 cells. Then, get three 5 Amp R/C car chargers for each string. This
will fully charge each one, but leaves me with 12 chargers for each stngle
string of 84 cells. If I end up with that, I plan to stack two flip flop
circuits such that it charges 15 min, 15 min, 15 min, 15 min each string per
hour sequentialy and limit the number of strings to 4 total. That will still
work, but I'll have to change to a 5 A fuse and add thermisters on each pack of
7 cells. This allows more use of the capacity of the cells, but is an issue
for discharge because no I can no longer leave it in parallel with my AGM pack
because the voltage is mismatched. Then, I have to wait until the AGM is low
enough and literally dump charge from the NiMH into the AGM and get the
voltages even. That would also be done through some type of
voltage trigger on the AGMs and a polyswitch to regulate the "dump charge".
This is a similar concept (not exactly the same, but similar) to what some of
the plug in hybrids use when the stiffen the existing pack with a secondary
pack.
Like I said, I am literally building this right now, so we'll see how it
goes. Last night I finished the first booster string and plan to have at least
4 fully installed in the car within 2 weeks.
I am looking at a total of 84 F cells / string divided in groups of 21 each
and 4 minimum each in parallel, maybe as many as 6 in parallel. We'll just
have to see how it works out.
I do know that a friend of mine has already done this (at least a varient of
it) and was successful, so I don't see why it wouldn't work for me.
Steve
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey Jim!
If you feel a bit "weird" from all the "weird" talk about you "loving" your
"child" motors, don't feel bad. You are in very good company. It turns out
that to do extraordinary things, you have to be an extraordinary person.
Normal people do normal things, not great things. Albert Einstein was
considered "weird", so was Nikola Tesla. So, the next time someone suggests
you may be not quite normal, smile and realize that is a great compliment!
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 10:14 PM
Subject: RE: Live from PIR, Fireball Incident
Hey Mike, all
--- Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jim,
> The way you're talking man we would think you gave
> birth to the thing ;-P
Tell you what! Lets see you insert a 37" Dutchman
shaft and see if you don't feel like you just gave
birth! Hows that sound?? You ain't one of those guys
who enjoy a good prostate exam now, Are you?
LMAO 8^P Hell just dealing with Waylands like child
birth, LMAO!
Hopefully it is just rigging. Tim told John there
were "noises" though, would you look at all you hall
of flame freaks drooling, LMAO! See James I told you!
never funnier than when the top man falls 8^P
Anyway with at least the mylar chips appearing (from
Johns discription) there appears to be more than just
rigging issues.
>From the reports I've gotten, 1 John says the new
Hawkers rule and 2 it seems to me that John was able
to get some fast back to back daytime runs in where
normaly it's had time to cool in the night air. John
admits to getting the motor hotter than it's ever
been.
I'd love to invite you all in to the horrors in my
mind of all the terrible things that could have
happened but I've learned to wait and see before
assuming anything and besides I don't want to sound
anymore insane than I have to 8^)
Anyway hopefull hannible will post soon with all the
details, I'm sure he's very pleased with himself right
now. There is more to the story but I will let the
butcher fill in the details as I'm not fully informed.
BTW They might not all be named but I love all my
little children. Bum me out if any of them had an
issue, doesn't matter if it was "my" fault or not.
I don't think one has to push his kid in front of a
car to feel bad the kid got hit by a car! For me
something like this is either
1, It's my fault or
2, I pushed my kid in front of the car knowing I was
giving it to a racer, LMAO! So I'm catch 22 here.
As to the mylar. It's sandwiched between two Nomex
sheets and keeps the Nomex from cracking. The way I
understand it is the Nomex insulates but can crack so
they add that inner Mylar so it doesn't. On my hard
accounts thier arms are wound with Nomex only. John's
armatures are factory wound and that's how they come.
I just threw them on a big popcicle stick 8^)
Anyway I'll keep everyone posted as I learn more.
Also, I see a few of you calling me momma. I'd rather
think of myself as a motor fairy God Mother. Turning
an old forklift motor into an EV drive is kinda like a
Cinderella story, for the motor anyway 8^) That is
unless I give it to some evil witch in a Plasmaboy
disguise, which is a whole other story!
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey everyone,
A message from Janaia Donaldson. The producer from that great
interview with Otmar.
Chip Gribben
NEDRA
http://www.nedra.com
Begin forwarded message:
From: Janaia Donaldson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: March 21, 2007 2:28:23 AM EST
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Thanks for front page coverage!
Hi NEDRA folks,
We're jazzed to see our Peak Moment Conversation on your home page,
and pleased that you feel the coverage was so comprehensive. As
host, my interest is to ask questions for the mainstream--and to
get EVs out there and happening. And frankly, because I want one.
When we take to the road in a small motorhome to videotape our Peak
Moment shows, I want to be towing an EV (with PVs on the roof) that
can carry our video gear wherever we need to set up to tape!
Gratefully,
Janaia & Robyn
Janaia Donaldson, producer & host
Robyn Mallgren, director
Peak Moment Television
watch online at
www.peakmoment.tv
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
530-265-4244 (California)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you look at the science of a battery in what its doing during the
discharge and charge cycle, you will understand you cannot make battery
electricity run in both directions exactly at the same time.
You can make it run in two different directions at different times, as
during the discharge cycle, the current flow is from the positive post
through the plates, through a interchange in the electrolyte and than to the
negative plates.
During the charge cycle, the current now flows from the negative post, the
negative plates, the chemical exchange in the electrolyte and to the
positive plates and positive post.
If you connect a generator to the batteries, which was done on my EV which
was used only for transporting the EV for about 600 miles, the generator was
large enough to charge the batteries while they are not being used, (current
flow in the battery is now from negative to positive) and the generator is
providing the full power to the controller and motor at this time.
The generator size to be able to run my EV motor and charge the 300 AH
batteries at the same time which got up to speeds of 92 mphs, was a 3 phase
37.5 kw 250 VAC Delta, that use a 900 amp three phase full wave bridge that
boast the voltage to 280 VDC at about 150 amps per phase.
The cost of this unit back in 1975 was $8000.00 which was also use for
emergency generator backup to commercial power. Today we install a 32 KW
unit for 120/240 volts that cost us $32,000.00!!
It is not cost effected, unless you are going to use it for emergency power
for a building or job site.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Fisher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 10:25 PM
Subject: charging while driving question
> I gather that pluggable hybrids are not really the thread of this list,
> yet the expertise is here, and I can't find another resource, so please
> bear with me...
>
> I am on a low budget, and will have to build my green car in phases. It
> seems unlikely that I can afford a battery pack with a satisfactory
> range in Li at one swallow, and anyway I need the room to experiment
> with differing solutions. I may still use lead, but it's too heavy for
> my primary spec. So the first EV phase may require an on-board genset to
> add some range.
>
> So what won't work with this:
>
> Li pack of say 120V
> commercial charger for 115-125 VAC - Zivan?
> DC motor or maybe D&D shunt wound DC to get regen
> commercial controller - Curtis?
> commercial 120V genset of say 5500 W 120 V continuous duty
>
>
> Can you plug the charger into the output of the genset and charge while
> you are driving off the battery pack?
>
> Ok now that you laughed until you wet your pants, please explain why not
> and what might work instead...
>
>
> TIA
>
>
> JF
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Mike
You sounded tired? I'm not wearing you out now am I,
hell I'm just warming up funny boy, LMAO. Actually
I'm sorry I wasn't able to hook up when I was up there
last year!
--- Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I suppose you could be right. Except for the
> splines you say bite into the armature, eh?
Because the shaft is splined and doesn't have a solid
body (and then the little knurl lines)(which is all
the OEM shaft uses to hold the arm tight) the diameter
had to be increased a little. On the case of the OEM
shaft the diameter matches the bore hole with those
knurl lines which increases the diameter just enough
for a press fit. On Dutchmans shaft those 4 knurl
lines were replaced with the spline teeth that hold
the arm. If he had left it the same diameter it would
have just dropped in. Like I said he made me two
shaft samples where I test pressed them to see exactly
how tight we could make it and still cram it in.
> > (I just pretend to hang out with them), They
> > said they'd call when they needed me again. Looks
> > like I took that call Sunday, Yeah 8^D!
>
> Hey at least they call you. I just have to settle
> for reading the ocaisional post and third party
> reports from PIR. I'm going to
> change that though, I'll race you to Portland!! for
> the Wayland invitational.
Ya Waylands been slacking here on his follow ups huh?
Maybe it's a if you don't go, you won't know attitude
in hopes more show up 8^) I'll be there, so if you're
there that'd be a hoot, PIR won't be the same EVer but
what the Hell, hehe.
Being I wasn't there (I really wanted to go but it
costs me about a hundred buck a trip so I'm damned if
I do, damned if I don't most of the time 8^( I've
been waiting for Wayland to post also. I do know
Tim's 5th run was a solo run. John said he'd beat the
other 4 racers he ran against though.
> > > I was also wondering if you could tell us motor
> > > challanged individuals what size thrust bearing
> you
> > > used on the DE?
> >
> > Us? or you?? and well, yes I could.
>
> Well duh, its me who asked. I figured I'd take one
> for the team of those who are to afraid to ask,
> fearing you might take a comm
> stone to sharpen your Spartan spear tip and then cut
> off their neck and spit down their throat.
Well your brave I'll give you that!
> > Some PlasmaBoy fan you are, have you EVen been
> >there?
>
> Yes I have, but I've slept since then. And who's
> Plasmaboy? I thought you said that was a Witch in a
> cheap costume.
Tell you what, drive 6 days and 4000 miles with John
and Tim in your truck and tell me if you come away
with different opinion 8^o John plays a nice guy on
TV but he's sicker than I am in person, with twice my
A.D.D. issues hehe.
> > They say a picture's worth a thousand words, so
> this is all you get!
http://photos.plasmaboyracing.com/buildsequence/Shaft_Spicer?full=1
> So it is, I remember seeing this last year. Care to
> spell out the 1000 words on your FAQ page? I can't
> read pictures to well.
> No, I get your message 599. I asked because those
> don't look like thrust bearings. But who am I to
> know. Maybe the 800 ft lbs
> of torque on the rear-end isn't enough to jam the
> slip yoke all the way up to the face of the motor,
> or so I would hope :-O
Thay're not thrust bearings just EMQ (electric motor
quality) bearings just like what came out of it and
what you'll see in your motors. The rear output
bearing is much bigger though. I had to add an
aluminum add on plate to increase the size of the
plate bearing journal as the OEM journal wouldn't fit
the larger bearing. The middle bearing is mounted on
a tube spacer with a fan and bearing journal machined
into it. After the first arm was pressed the middle
bearing, fan, and plate assy were pressed on next
followed by the other armature. In order to do this
on the cheap, I used a bearing for the middle plate
that matched the plate journal. I didn't use the
snapring though and added a wave washer so it could
expand as needed. Dutchman even said I was smarter
than I looked when he saw that 8^) Course that's not
saying much 8^o
> >
> > I hope you have to cut and paste that link to,
> hahaha.
> > To bad you can't zoom in enough to read the
> numbers
> > huh! 8^o LMAO!
>
> Why cut and paste? I chicken pecked it in, like you
> did.
Thats funny I just had to click the link, LMAO!
> You sure talk a mean talk about the Witch in a
> Plasmaboy suit but you seem to have that WZ history
> page memorized.
Well all those pics are ones John took (I didn't have
the shop camera yet!) He never sent me copies so I
have to go there and ring up his counters if I want to
see them! That's why there are no Siamese8 pics at my
site also!
> Oh I forgot
> its half about you anyway ;-p
Well thats true but I'm getting old so I like to look
back and remember what I did.
> I don't need to kype
> the drawing though. I'll just send MY motors to
> some guys motor shop down in
> Redmond :-) Know any good shops down there??
Well I did, but I think they went under, to many
Plasma Boy warranties or something!
> > Yeah! Big city Mountain Boy's getting ready to
> race!
>
> Hey no pokin' fun, we actually have a paved drag
> strip. It doubles as the runway during the day.
Pilot capital of the world or so I heard. Okay I
understand that the shit flipping has to be flung
south, got it! 8^P Hey Massey you reading this??
That boy just can't get a break, LMAO!
> Why don't you just open up a seasonal shop up in
> Palmer so I can leave the motors with you every day
> when I leave the track :-O I
> can't believe you'd build such a nice motor for
> Zombie and not even be there to see your baby(ies)
> compete. What kind of mother
> are you anyway ;-)
Well to be honest my sis up there has been trying to
get me to move there since she got there, LMAO! I
loved the all light summers but I'd hate the winters
and dark. And you guys think I'm cranky with Oregon
winters, HA! Now a seasonal Alaska, Florida type
thing I might be into 8^) I've actually thought how
fun it be to load the shop into a semi truck and drive
all over, building motors for people, eating all their
food, kinda like a big motor locust would be a hoot!
To bad Wayland made me sign a contract preventing me
from moving from Oregon for 5 years 8^o Tell you what
I'll let you know more in 3 more years, LMAO!
He wanted me to stay in his garage the whole time, but
I wouldn't sign that one, LMAO!
Fun to dream but in reality I can't buy gas to go to
Portland most of the time, LMAO! As far as what type
of mother I am I feel like the welfare type half the
time 8^o Kids running around with snot hanging out
their noses, naked most the time. You know typical
white trash mom. LMAO!
> Yeah, like a rusty fish hook.
> damn that red yarn works good !!
Yep that's what Wayland said after I signed his
contract, God I'm a sucker!
There, does this help??
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
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--- Begin Message ---
--- john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> no fun unless you get to write some code...
> actually I was thinking of realtime display plus more elegant
> analysis. Life is too short to use Hyperterminal.
I'm with you on that one.
> I thought from my last foray into data acquisition that USB and
> serial hardware was common as dirt...LabView as the universal
> first choice in drivers, "works with LabView" was a common theme.
This is one place where LabView shines. They have got the I/O
thing down. It will talk just about anything you can come up
with, even including bit-banging the PC parallel port. RS-232,
USB, ethernet, firewire, CAN, I2C, and of course, GPIB all well
covered. For custom protocols of your own you could use a digital
I/O interface and read/write bit, byte, or word-wide data with or
without handshaking. The product I've written LabView test code
for I use RS-232 for control, UDP over ethernet for data, and 8
bit wide digital I/0 for programming a synthesizer serially.
The deal with LabView is you don't need to be an expert in C
to get an application up quickly with a nice user interface.
*If* the virtual instrument you need for the function you want
already exists (and odds are it does), you connect the dots,
hit run and your application is doing it's thing.
The issue Roger brings up about isolation is a good one, most
DAQ modules are expecting basically TTL levels referenced to
ground. Not that a suitable module doesn't exist, but since
I've never had a need for one I've never sought one out. Since
my goal is to incorporate DAQ in my EV refurbish, it's on my
list to solve this issue. I have the benefit of a National
Instruments rep that visits the facility once a week, so I
can pick his brain and put that resource to work to come up
with potential solutions.
Since the battery equalizer my buddy and I are working on uses
an I2C interface, I will likely steer towards that as the bus
of choice for DAQ data. It would be relatively academic
to isolate that signal prior to piping it into the PC. The
nice part about LabView is you can mix/match all the protocols
you want, so if I have a serial E-meter I can monitor/control
that while communicating with another module via I2C, USB, or
any other combination. LabView is very bloated, but also
very flexible and configurable.
Some might consider the idea of $1200 for a software program
and maybe a like amount for DAQ hardware to be extravagent or
superfluous, but consider the time investment you would have
to make to build an equivalent system from scratch, using
discrete components and "free" PC's. You could spend months
getting the hardware built and bugs worked out, with an off
the shelf solution you could be experimenting and playing
with data within a few hours. All depends on your core interest
and what you're trying to achieve. It's pretty much a
foregone conclusion that you're not building an EV to save
money, you're doing it for a multitude of other reasons.
For those of us looking beyond just an "EV Grin", having a
serious DAQ system and being able to analyze our EV's performance
over time and conditions might be where our true interest lies.
What EV'er *wouldn't* like to have quantitive data on
specific performance aspects of their creation? Personally
I would rather pay the price for the off the shelf solution
and get the benefit of working with data, rather than working
on the acquisition system.
> Actually a list of what we'd need to measure would be really
> helpful. I mean I assume amperage and voltage at various
> places, plus safety stuff like motor temp and performance
> stuff like ground speed and rpms. What else?
What I've always wanted to implement is power (battery amps
and volts) vs GPS position, speed and direction, even ambient
temperature. You could plot your power use not as only a
function of time as you would with just an E-meter, but also
know the conditions such as grade and speed. The ability to
store power use profiles for repeated trips could be very useful
in determining the impact of different tires or changing the
goop in the differential. Takes a lot of the subjective
interpretation out of just what effect a change we make has
on some aspect of performance. What data you monitor is
limited only by your imagination, from torque to G-forces,
temperatures, voltages, currents, pressures, you name it.
Once it's a data stream, you can process, display and store
it however you want. Dumping the data via wireless LAN while
parked in the garage allows for all sorts of post processing
and storage with the home PC.
Mark "EV Basher" Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
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--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
"I keep coming across info about NiMH being a problem when you are trying
to charge them in parallel- Can someone explain what the problem is? or a
site that details it?"
Mick says:
Charging strings of Ni-MH in parallel has been discussed heatedly on
this list (pun intended). The RC aircraft guys are fine with discharging
ni-MH strings in parallel, but most do not charge them in parallel. I think
the reason is that if one string reaches full charge before the other one
does, the voltage in that string drops but the charger can't detect that
because the other string is still there with higher voltage, so destructive
overcharge energy keeps moving into the string that's already charged. It's
sort of a thermal runaway problem."
Mick Abraham
www.abrahamsolar.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Roland> If you look at the science of a battery in what its doing during
Roland> the discharge and charge cycle, you will understand you cannot
Roland> make battery electricity run in both directions exactly at the
Roland> same time.
Roland> You can make it run in two different directions at different
Roland> times, as during the discharge cycle, the current flow is from
Roland> the positive post through the plates, through a interchange in
Roland> the electrolyte and than to the negative plates.
How will the Chevy Volt work? I thought at least one of its possible
configurations was to have battery only drive power and a small engine whose
sole purpose would be to charge the batteris and thus extend the car's
range.
Roland> The generator size to be able to run my EV motor and charge the
Roland> 300 AH batteries at the same time which got up to speeds of 92
Roland> mphs, was a 3 phase 37.5 kw 250 VAC Delta, that use a 900 amp
Roland> three phase full wave bridge that boast the voltage to 280 VDC
Roland> at about 150 amps per phase.
What about using a medium size motorcycle engine as a generator?
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
"The hippies and the hipsters did some great stuff in the sixties,
but the geeks pulled their weight too." -- Billy Bragg
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey Ken
Well thanks for the kind words. As for me I'm just a
normal (least I'd like to think that) guy just like
all of you who are trying to help shift the worlds
paradigm to electric powered cars. I have no
illusions of grandure but am proud to be a member of
what we call the EV community 8^)
Einstein? ya right!, Tesla, worng again, Man your
funnier than Mike Willmon, hehe. A Spartan with a
sharp stick, that might be getting close, LMAO.
Anyway stop shouting encouragement from behind that
rock and get up here and help me chop up those damn
motor Persians would you! My arms getting tired (no
pun intended) 8^)
It's like shooting fish in a barrel but there are so
damn many of them!
You post tells me in fact that I might have more of
you guys fooled than Wayland does 8^) Not sure what
posts you've been reading but as for me I feel more
like Steve Martin in Planes, trains, and automobiles.
Than the brainiacs you mention.
If nothing else hopefully I'll have gained good
friends and one hell of a story to tell my grandkids
(the real ones) about a little road trip Wayland got
me into.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hey Jim!
>
> If you feel a bit "weird" from all the "weird" talk
> about you "loving" your "child" motors, don't feel
> bad. You are in very good company. It turns out
> that to do extraordinary things, you have to be an
> extraordinary person. Normal people do normal
> things, not great things. Albert Einstein was
> considered "weird", so was Nikola Tesla. So, the
> next time someone suggests you may be not quite
> normal, smile and realize that is a great
> compliment!
>
> Ken
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 10:14 PM
> Subject: RE: Live from PIR, Fireball Incident
>
>
> Hey Mike, all
>
> --- Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Jim,
> > The way you're talking man we would think you gave
> > birth to the thing ;-P
>
> Tell you what! Lets see you insert a 37" Dutchman
> shaft and see if you don't feel like you just gave
> birth! Hows that sound?? You ain't one of those
> guys
> who enjoy a good prostate exam now, Are you?
> LMAO 8^P Hell just dealing with Waylands like child
> birth, LMAO!
>
> Hopefully it is just rigging. Tim told John there
> were "noises" though, would you look at all you hall
> of flame freaks drooling, LMAO! See James I told
> you!
> never funnier than when the top man falls 8^P
> Anyway with at least the mylar chips appearing (from
> Johns discription) there appears to be more than
> just
> rigging issues.
>
> >From the reports I've gotten, 1 John says the new
> Hawkers rule and 2 it seems to me that John was able
> to get some fast back to back daytime runs in where
> normaly it's had time to cool in the night air.
> John
> admits to getting the motor hotter than it's ever
> been.
>
> I'd love to invite you all in to the horrors in my
> mind of all the terrible things that could have
> happened but I've learned to wait and see before
> assuming anything and besides I don't want to sound
> anymore insane than I have to 8^)
> Anyway hopefull hannible will post soon with all the
> details, I'm sure he's very pleased with himself
> right
> now. There is more to the story but I will let the
> butcher fill in the details as I'm not fully
> informed.
>
> BTW They might not all be named but I love all my
> little children. Bum me out if any of them had an
> issue, doesn't matter if it was "my" fault or not.
> I don't think one has to push his kid in front of a
> car to feel bad the kid got hit by a car! For me
> something like this is either
> 1, It's my fault or
> 2, I pushed my kid in front of the car knowing I was
> giving it to a racer, LMAO! So I'm catch 22 here.
>
> As to the mylar. It's sandwiched between two Nomex
> sheets and keeps the Nomex from cracking. The way I
> understand it is the Nomex insulates but can crack
> so
> they add that inner Mylar so it doesn't. On my hard
> accounts thier arms are wound with Nomex only.
> John's
> armatures are factory wound and that's how they
> come.
> I just threw them on a big popcicle stick 8^)
>
> Anyway I'll keep everyone posted as I learn more.
>
> Also, I see a few of you calling me momma. I'd
> rather
> think of myself as a motor fairy God Mother.
> Turning
> an old forklift motor into an EV drive is kinda like
> a
> Cinderella story, for the motor anyway 8^) That is
> unless I give it to some evil witch in a Plasmaboy
> disguise, which is a whole other story!
>
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
> with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
>
________________________________________________________________________
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out
> more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/
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--- Begin Message ---
On 20 Mar 2007 at 7:25, Jim Husted wrote:
> As to where and
> how to post, I'll just throw it out there and let you
> all post it where and how, as you feel fit 8^)
OK, I'll do the same. That is, I'll save 'em up in a special email folder
and put them together in a simple log format for the EVDL Library
http://www.evdl.org/lib/
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
If it's only 100X larger, then you're doing pretty good.
Lee Hart wrote:
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
But Lee, where's the GUI? :-)
I'm sure you can rewrite it in Java or something so it's only 100
times bigger, and only misses data "sometimes" (because it's too busy
drawing pretty pictures to bother to take data). :-)
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--- Begin Message ---
On 21 Mar 2007 at 9:27, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> How will the Chevy Volt work?
Every time someone posts this question, Roland answers this way. I think
the way he states it confuses people.
The answer is that a genset can provide part of the energy required to keep
the vehicle moving down the road. How much it can make up depends on how
much capacity the genset has.
That is, if it takes 10kW to keep the EV moving, a 5kW genset can
theoretically double the range at that fixed speed (assuming it can actually
produce that much power continuously); and a 15kW genset can not only keep
the vehicle rolling but also charge the battery (with the same caveat).
Note that I'm neglecting issues like the additional weight - this is a very
crude, terribly oversimplified analysis.
All that said, there are some very serious disadvantages to using homeowner
or construction gensets in EVs. These have been discussed in this thread
already; please review it.
IMO, from an emissions standpoint, if you expect to use such a genset more
than a couple times a year, you may as well not build the EV. Home gensets'
uncontrolled engines pour out so much filth (emissions) that they will more
than offset the emissions you save in driving the EV. Of course it's true
that emissions aren't a priority for some people, but the other concerns
remain.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
Sounds like the subject should be "Hybrid Electric Vehicles" or HEV. And
there are many different approaches, like series or parallel. One
configuration getting a lot of press lately is called a "Plug-In" hybrid. We
used to call it a HEV using a charge depleting strategy. Meaning you would
plug the car in and charge the battery from the grid. But the vehicle would be
capable of full performance after the grid charge was depleted by starting an
engine-generator and use fuel as the energy source. You should be able to find
much info from web search or your local library on HEVs. Here's one
http://www.eere.energy.gov/cleancities/hev/
Putting an AC gen set and AC to DC battery charger on board is not a good
idea.
Jeff
John Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I gather that pluggable hybrids are not really the thread of this list,
yet the expertise is here, and I can't find another resource, so please
bear with me...
I am on a low budget, and will have to build my green car in phases. It
seems unlikely that I can afford a battery pack with a satisfactory
range in Li at one swallow, and anyway I need the room to experiment
with differing solutions. I may still use lead, but it's too heavy for
my primary spec. So the first EV phase may require an on-board genset to
add some range.
So what won't work with this:
Li pack of say 120V
commercial charger for 115-125 VAC - Zivan?
DC motor or maybe D&D shunt wound DC to get regen
commercial controller - Curtis?
commercial 120V genset of say 5500 W 120 V continuous duty
Can you plug the charger into the output of the genset and charge while
you are driving off the battery pack?
Ok now that you laughed until you wet your pants, please explain why not
and what might work instead...
TIA
JF
---------------------------------
Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I keep coming across info about NiMH being a problem when you are
trying to charge them in parallel- Can someone explain what the
problem is?
Look at a graph of an nimh cell's charging voltage. It starts at the
discharged voltage (around 1.2v), and slowly rises to about 1.4v as the
cell charges.
When the cell is almost full, several things happen. First, the voltage
starts to increase much more rapidly, to 1.55v or so. Second, the cell's
temperature starts rising. Third, the voltage starts to *fall*, because
the increasing temperature is lowering the voltage.
If you don't shut off the charger when this voltage peaks and
temperature rises, the cell will be destroyed from overheating and
overcharging.
If you charge two nimh cells in parallel, and they aren't identical and
at the same state of charge, then one of them reaches full first. Its
voltage peaks, its temperature rises, and it starts "hogging" all the
charging current. The other cell, instead of charging, will be
DISCHARGING into the hot full cell. If not stopped, this will damage or
destroy the hot cell.
Thus, you can't use voltage alone as the "full" indicator for
parallelled nimh cells on charge. You have to measure individual
temperatures (for example), and stop charging when either of them starts
heating up. This means the other cell will never reach "full"; you'll
just have to accept that as a consequence.
Because of this problem, nimh cells are normally charged separately; not
in parallel.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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