EV Digest 6613
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Yahoo! Auto Response
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: ev 8 seater apv
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: Minivan conversion was -- Re: ev 8 seater apv
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) MORE Fast EV's in Major Mags. PLEASE
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: ev 8 seater apv
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: ev 8 seater apv
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: ev 8 seater apv
by DAVID BARWICK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Quick PFC20 question
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Connector recs sought
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) negative side contactors & shunts.
by Jeff Mccabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Popular press bibliography?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Battery Weight Balalnce
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Fwd: Anyone want to climb Mt. Washington?
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Quick PFC20 question
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Who does the EVWiki?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: May C&D Article on White Zombie
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: Quick PFC20 question
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Who does the EVWiki?
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) practical grounding (RE: Quick PFC20 question)
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Minivan conversion was -- Re: ev 8 seater apv
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Quick PFC20 question
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) Re: Who does the EVWiki?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
23) Re: Quick PFC20 question
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Who does the EVWiki?
by Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Who does the EVWiki?
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Nimble Motorsports Hybrid Re: Minivan conversion was -- Re: ev 8
seater apv
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I will be away and unable to respond to your message until April 7, 2007.
Thanks,
Jim
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 3/30/2007 7:57:18 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Then again, it's going to be fairly tough to convert anything short of a
small bus to carry 8 passengers.
Is the 8 pass are definite requirement? What kind of range are yo looking
for?
Actually, carrying eight people is a rather effecient use of ICE technology!
Our problems are arising from almost all of us "going solo" in these big,
honkin' gassers....If someone used a mini-van (ICE-powered) to haul around 8
people, I'd call that "appropriate technology"!
Matt Parkhouse
Colorado Springs, CO
BMW m/c-Golf Cart trike - 48 volts, 30mph on the flat, 35 mile range
1972 VW Van - to be converted this year!
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd go with a plug-in hybrid instead. Forget the recharging from ICE, assist
up hills, and just have a small motor to drive your 10 or 15 miles up to
40 - 45 mph.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 11:10 AM
Subject: Minivan conversion was -- Re: ev 8 seater apv
This thread has intrigued me, as I have been thinking a lot about
converting my current minivan to a hybrid vehicle. I know that this list
is for electric vehicles, so I want to ask a question that deals with that
part.
The reason I want to do this is there are several times we fire up the ICE
for doing rounds around our neighborhood, stopping off at different
houses, idling, at each house, which takes up to 20 minutes to an hour to
be back home again. (Not 20 minutes to an hour at each house.) We also
have journeys that are 4 miles round trip to various locations. This
minivan isn't the most economical, getting around 16 mpg, which is bad for
minivans. My parent's minivan gets around 20 mpg. So I know that things
need to be fixed up on it. (And hopefully soon they will be.) These
types of journeys aren't good for ICEs, as I understand. I do have a
Honda Accord, which we usually take, so it isn't so bad, but I have a
growing family (our 4th baby is on its way) so the Accord won't fit the
family soon. So I would like to build a electrical drive for the minivan
for the short drives.
My requirements for the EV portion would be:
8 miles purely on battery power.
top speed of 40 - 45 mph.
be able to assist the small 3 liter engine at speeds up to 75 mph on the
freeway or driving up hills.
have the batteries recharge while the ICE is doing its cruising thing.
I think I have specified everything. Do these requirements sound
feasible? What are the suggestions for making this work? I hope this
draws as many good replies as the former thread, and better than some of
my other questions.
Thanks,Brian
---- Msg sent via @=WebMail - http://webmail.usu.edu/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As long as we are writing to C&D to thank them for a wonderful
POSATIVE article on EV's How about letting them watch yet another EV
WAISTE an
Lambo, and a NASCAR on an oval track !!!
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=interestedparty123
(I LOVED this Video...)
Just think of how may TaraBites they waste on $200,000 to $1,000,000.
million Dollar Cars, that not one out of Ten Million of us would ever be
able to afford or buy..
That goes especially for Road and Track and Motor Trend too....
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Umm, GVWR is the maximum TOTAL weight of the vehicle, this INCLUDES the
weight of the vehicle itself.
Since the vehicle weighs approx 1675 kg, that means you only have 488 kg
left. 8 passengers alone might exceed that weight.
It's not impossible to convert, but definitely sounds impractical.
Then again, it's going to be fairly tough to convert anything short of a
small bus to carry 8 passengers.
Thinking about it, to make an MPV conversion work with useful range
and carrying capacity, you need to look at batteries with higher
energy density than lead acid.
For example, a Zebra Z5 17.8kWh battery weighs 184kG, and measures 826
x 530 x 292mm, which might fit on the floor behind the back row of
seats (well, there's not much room anywhere else). Coupled with a
Brusa AC drive and charger, this could be close to a plug and play
solution, and you might get the components for the $34000 mentioned.
If you wish to use lead acid technology, you will probably need to
look at a bigger vehicle, for example a ford transit minibus (120
model) which has room under the floor and will carry the weight of a
reasonable size flooded pack.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David, Chrysler has made two electric versions of their Dodge Caravan /
Plymouth Voyager minivans. One is called the TEVan, and the other is the Epic.
I think both were (or could be) 8-seaters; 2 in front, 3 in the middle, and 3
in back. These vans were sold by Chrysler, and occasionally turn up for sale
used. A few memebers of the EV list have, or have had them, and can provide
more detailed information.
It would be far easier and more likely to succeed to simply purchase a working
EV that suits your needs than to build one.
--
"Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it." -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
THANK YOU
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: David, Chrysler has made two electric
versions of their Dodge Caravan / Plymouth Voyager minivans. One is called the
TEVan, and the other is the Epic. I think both were (or could be) 8-seaters; 2
in front, 3 in the middle, and 3 in back. These vans were sold by Chrysler, and
occasionally turn up for sale used. A few memebers of the EV list have, or have
had them, and can provide more detailed information.
It would be far easier and more likely to succeed to simply purchase a working
EV that suits your needs than to build one.
--
"Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it." -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK now we are talking practical procedures.. and not that we all are going
to get killed...
Now we can get some discusion that is meaningfull.
As most of you know I kind of have a reputation for finding myself
in...er... akward EV places..
Were Gonna Do What??? OH...sh!! Or What just fell into that battery
box...??
Having done this on TV a couple of times.... I do have my safety rules and
checks..
The old lineman's trick whipe the object of Question with the BACK of your
hand... if it's hot your muscles will pull your hand back.. not lock your
hand onto the hot object.
And if it tickles... Go unplug it or just open the breaker first.. before
anything else.
Paranoia says start as far away from the Ev in question ... work you way to
the EV... With meter in hand check don't assume that every piece you have to
handle is at zero volts.. before you have to touch it.
If you have to reach into the high voltage stuff.. Do so with one hand..
single point contacts will save you skin if it's DC, If it's AC... keep in
mind AC ground can be anywheres... And AC can get around single point
breakers...
And I find 12 volts uncomfortable... I am a sack of salty water....Other
peoples opions vary.... I get bit all the time.
HOT BOAT... did a interview on me once while I was Vairac/Rectifrier
charging a Electric Hydroplane... he lost count at about 30 seprate shocks.
I was in a hurry and had absolutely no safties of any sort. We had Kids
playing around the boats once... We asked they play around something else
not so sharp and expensive... they didn't listen.. We had a talk with thier
folks.. about E boats and still no action... Then they started playing with
something back by the Props.. I heard a Ouch!.. they then left the Eboats
alone... I was contimplating a Neon transformer .. before they solved our
problem for us....
This was the same day I grabbed a 100 lbs LIVE vairac as it slid off the
boat heading into water. No shock But months of ripped back muscles made
for a long lasting lesson in just how stupid we got that day.. and we all
lived to tell about it. That was one hairy EV race.
I don't know how many times I have opened up a battery box to find Green
Fuzz everywhere.. and Grounds left open.. Cuse the GFI won't stay in.. or
the Breaker won't stay in...
It's also very hard to keep expensive electronics functioning in this
forgotten Green Fuzz zone.... Even Iso formers... just let the fun keep
going while the rest gets down right hazzardous.
Keep a clean pack and motor and controller.. and you won't need GFI and
double insulated equipment, and rubber gloves.
Or that Keen eye and nose for that Green Fuzz that can light up your day.
I still have nightmares of what should have happend on Monster Garage..Luck
was with us.. And you might remeber that it was Shawn that did the Big Arcy
Sparky.. I had chickened out by that time.
We did have to remove a pack of batteries to complete that connection and
live to tell about it. If I could just find that Damn Wrench!!....
There are also really good reasons for having plastic covers. on the hot
stuff.. even when it's not being charged.. is coverd from prying fingers. Or
for us Gray hairs.. the dropped wrench test...
The most at risk on a EV is the builder designer.. the guy who has to cross
the safety barriers to get the job done. They guy who makes the safety
equipment and has to install it. So yea I kinda to know where the hot stuff
is.. and what not to touch. The point is you almost have to have a Suiside
wish to get bitten hard enough to hurt your self. It takes a really solid
connection to kill somebody, or my worries are absent mindeness... brushing
up against a 120 to 240 VDC is going to hurt.. but not kill. Mistakenly
grabbing the main Neg cable and leaning over and vise gripping onto the Main
positve.. or something like that, Slipping and having to place a hand
badly.. that's what I worry about.
What other good stories do we have out there that shows how to EV safely..
even it the EV is..er questionably built??
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 2:42 PM
Subject: RE: Quick PFC20 question
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > It rains a LOT here in Seattle, I charge a completely un
> > grounded EV off of 240..
> >
> > I don't get shocked.. and I am asking to be totally vaporized any
> > second..Right???
> >
> > According to the Safety Regs I should be Dead years ago.
> >
> > Funny Why am I NOT????
>
> I know, I know! ;^> Perhaps because you use sealed AGMs that don't leak
> acid nearly as much as floodies (so aren't as prone to leakage to
> chassis), and generally are an experienced EVer who took proper
> precautions elsewhere in the design of your EV?
>
> Bear in mind that you are now an experienced EVer, but I believe you
> started out many many moons ago with fairly low voltage systems (48V?)
> and may well have learned some valuable lessons in a non-fatal way
> before progressing up to the higher pack voltages. And, you were an
> experienced tech to start with; this is a distinctly different situation
> from a newbie starting out with a "low voltage" 120V vehicle and having
> just enough elecrical knowledge to connect the batteries together -ve to
> +ve... ;^>
>
> > The harder part is not too toss regs and safety procedures at
> > the Newbies, and explain why the hazzards known are not that
> > hazzardous.
>
> I think this is a very good point. It is very important that people
> understand why something is or is not a recommended practice, and what
> the risks are if they decide not to follow recommended practices.
>
> > The last time I got shocked really hard was IN a grounded
> > situation... I was plugged into a "Grounded" Out let it
> > was a public site...
> > The fact that the ground was not connected some wheres
> > unseen.. Lit me up.
>
> So, let's be clear about this: you did not get shocked in a grounded
> situation, or because ground was properly connected, but rather because
> you *thought* ground was connected and it wasn't. Sounds like exactly
> the sort of situation that a GFCI could have avoided or mitigated, and
> exactly why people like Neon often remind us that a GFCI is always a
> good idea even with an isolated and/or grounded charger.
>
> > I think the clearer question and solution is to make sure you
> > don't have a fault.. and to never get yourself in a situation
> > that can kill you.
>
> So maybe that is something we should focus on: what are the dangerous
> situations we need to avoid, and how do we tell if such a situation
> exists each and every time before we plug in? What can we do to
> minimise the risk of walking away from our EV after safely plugging it
> in and returning to find the neighbour kid lying next to it because
> something became unsafe afterwards?
>
> > And never let the neibour Kids mess with your EV while it's charging.
>
> This one seems straightforward, but it kind of precludes ever charging
> in public unless one is committed to guarding the car the whole time.
>
> What we do in our own (locked) garage is one thing, but if the car's in
> the driveway and the neighbour kid reaches under it for his ball, etc.
> and gets fried, or if you're charging in public and someone gets injured
> or killed touching the car it's a different situation entirely.
>
> And remember that individual susceptibility to shock varies greatly.
> I've got a co-worker that jumps when he brushes against 30VDC, while I
> think the lowest voltage I've ever felt is 72V or higher. A child could
> be seriously injured by a leakage current level that would only give
> some of us a good tingle.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
A 3 amp Soneil 1206cc charger is connected to each of
12 AGMs in my Geo EV using the wire pair harnesses
that come with the chargers. They include an inline
fuse holder and 10 amp fuse.
The plan is to also connect 1 Datel digital voltage
monitor per batt. It would be easier to connect the
Datels along the wire pairs (making use of the
existing fuse) then to connect at the battery
terminals.
Anyway connector recommendations are sought and would
be appreciated. Radio Shack is down the street and
they sell some tap-in connectors like these:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103312&cp=&kw=wire+tap&parentPage=search
Other options?
Mark
____________________________________________________________________________________
It's here! Your new message!
Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To John Wayland and others,
My name is Jeff mccabe, I'm in the final stages of a 928 Porsche conversion.
My setup is as follows.
1200raptor
26 PC1500 odysseys(156v. series paralleled with buddy pairs.)
9" ADC
SW200 main contactors
SW202 for reverse
mkb-500-50 shunt
My question is , I was looking at white zombies 2007 cont actor and shunt
setup and didn't see a negative side contactor. Also on the positive side you
are using three shunts in parallel.
I had planned on just running an SW200 + & - side contactor and a paralleled
250 amp breaker. I was told that this would be good for my daily driver with
flooded batteries, but I'm now using the odysseys so I can take full advantage
of the raptor controller.
Should I run paralleled positive and negative side contactors and a
paralleled shunt setup to be on the safe side.
Also with paralleled shunts will my 500 amp gauge still read correctly.
This is my first conversion, so any guidance you or the group could provide
would be greatly appreciated.
thanks, Jeff
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ken> This is such a fantastic article!
I still have yet to locate it, however, you also wrote:
ken> And one suggestion for Roderick Wilde; make up some fake tattoos of
ken> the Suck Amps logo ...
so I googled for Suck Amps and the first hit was this Wired article from
March 1999:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/7.03/drag.html
I think that captures an essential aspect of the potential EV market - that
you have to make the cars interesting. John Wayland certainly does.
Which brings me to my question. Is there a bibliography of EV articles in
the popular press (e.g., Wired, Newsweek, not EVWorld)?
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
"The hippies and the hipsters did some great stuff in the sixties,
but the geeks pulled their weight too." -- Billy Bragg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is it a good idea to offset the driver weight by placing 150lbs or so of
more weight on the right side of the Porsche? In my Cushman I was in the
center but now I notice that the left side of the Porsche sits 1/2 inch
lower than the right with me in it and no battery offset.
Thanks,
Mark
_________________________________________________________________
Mortgage refinance is hot 1) Rates near 30-yr lows 2) Good credit get
intro-rate 4.625%*
https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h2a5f&s=4056&p=5117&disc=y&vers=743
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I encourage everyone in the northeast to try to make it to this event. It's
> a great chance to
> generate some good EV publicity. For those who've never been, the Auto Road
> is 8 miles long and
> the elevation change is about 4500'. Very challenging (to say the least) and
> if you can't
> regenerate, you better have good brakes! The summit is above the tree line
> and offers
> outstanding views on clear days. It looks like there will be an exhibition
> and space for
> vendors. I'll keep the List updated as I learn
>
This sounds very interesting, and it's in my backyard (sorta.) I'm usually in
the White Mountains
at least once a year to go backpacking. And I've climbed Washington at least a
dozen times (and
driven up at least 3 times.)
But I'm a little concerned about driving an EV up that hill. I haven't
calculated how much battery
capacity I would need to drive the seven (?) or so miles to the top. And I
wouldn't think of doing
it without some additional motor cooling. But my concern is coming down. I have
a DC controller
with no regen. In a regular car, you always want to use a low gear to ease the
burden on the
brakes. I'll have practially new brakes on my car, but I still don't like going
down that hill
with just brakes. Does anyone have any secret method to use on a long downhill?
How about leaving the car in reverse and ever so lightly feathering the gas?
Just enough to resist
the motor spinning in the opposite direction of rotation? Or is that just a
good way to buy new
parts?
Maybe I'll attend, but leave it parked at the bottom.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Home Depot..
GET 50 amp HOT tub GFI breaker..
They are about $105 each.
I suppose you will also need a certified electrical contractor to install
that also right.. you wouldn't want to break any rules now would you??
That electrician cost about $75a hour list... I get deals, Wife and
landlord at the power shop are or work for electrical outfits...
Ok.. from the real world of EVers.. GFI won't stay in..Darn!! remove it I am
not walking home...
Piece of Crap.... That GFI just got dissabled.. ... How safe are you now????
I have seen this happen... while I was trying to explain that we really
should find the fault... Opened the battery Box.. and Oh...that's Why...
Floodies.. and Green fuzz.
So the GFI.. ain't gonna happen on a EV charger.
It will on a OEM system Because I can pass the cost along and they expect
to pay for that needed feature.
Fear and loathing and leagalese, fear of lawyers and What "if's" rule ....
Lee Hart .. takes years to make a fail safe design.. Nice job when you get
paid for it.
I make aLOT of power.. knowing that if I add just couple more "features".. I
will basicly eliminate my market.
Ev listers are Not going to pay a Buck a watt for a EV charger.. heck they
will make thier own for pennys a watt.. and live long to tell about it.
You have to know what your limits are.... nice quote.. Building a meets all
specs for everybody EV charger.. well I don't do that at the moment.
There is a demand for it.. as of this spring.. and I have to evaluate
weather I want to spend the Kilo bucks doing it.
This EV world has been nice to me... I don't need to have a room full of
engineers and lawyers to make a widget for FORD or .. who ever.
Maybe it's time I did. But I can pretty much garentee that the price per
watt will double if not triple.
Save your dooms day line for a a off line rant....
Now you are just scaring the newbies.. on a subject that is just about all
scare tactic anyways.
Build your EV s for safety.. and the rest gets easy.
No pack faults to chassis... isolate the high voltages line while charging.
Cover anything that gets hot while charging or powered up.
You should anyways...I do!
Iso and GFIs are bandaids...
Common sense rules.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 8:38 PM
Subject: RE: Quick PFC20 question
> > > According to the Safety Regs I should be Dead years ago.
> > >
> > > Funny Why am I NOT????
>
> Not to drag Lee Hart into the discussion, but the difference between the
way Rich designs
> and the way Lee designs couldn't be more stark. Lee thinks about what
could go wrong and
> how to prevent it. Rich just thinks, "what could go wrong?"
>
> In a way, I understand where he's coming from. The EV hobbyist community
generally cares
> very much about what the charger costs and how much power it can produce.
Safety is well
> down the list. Isolation would cost a fair bit more, so this is "safe
enough."
>
> I suspect that a lot of execs at Ford said the Pinto was "safe enough,"
too.
>
> I know, that's a bit of a cheap shot, maybe overly dramatic, but think
about it. With no
> isolation in the PFC range, GFI protection is critical. I'm pretty sure
Rich agrees with me on
> that point. But PFCs don't come with this essential safety device (unless
Rich has changed
> them recently).
>
> It wouldn't be that hard to add one to at least some models. TRC makes
250 volt GFIs.
> They're available as panel mount (up to 20 amps IIRC) and integrated into
power cables (up to
> 30 amps). In quantity it might add $40 or so to the price of the charger.
Here are a couple of
> examples :
>
> http://www.trcelectrical.com/product.php?Item_ID=929
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160080441188
>
> I'm told that there's a note in the PFC manual suggesting that they be
connected to GFIs.
> Fine, as far as it goes. But other than GFI breakers, 250 volt GFIs
aren't the sort of item one
> finds at the local Home Despot. I haven't read the PFC manual, so I don't
know - does it offer
> any suggestions as to where one might find a 250 volt GFI?
>
> Is suggesting that the user connect the charger to a GFI sufficient to
ward off liability for any
> hazards or accidents that occur without one?
>
> How many of you who have PFC chargers followed the instructions and fitted
a GFI when you
> installed them? Is the GFI permanently attached to the cord or to the
vehicle, so that it's GFI
> protected every time and everywhere you plug in?
>
> How many of you read that note and plan to fit a GFI someday, but just
haven't gotten round
> to it yet? Do you even know where to buy a 250v GFI?
>
> How many don't think it's very important and aren't going to bother?
>
> How many didn't even notice that sentence in the manual?
>
> Put enough unisolated, non-GFI protected chargers in service, and the law
of averages is
> going to catch up with you. Who's going to be the first to electrocute
his kid? The neighbor's
> kid? Even a nonfatal but frightening shock would be enough to prompt a
lawsuit for pain and
> suffering. Who's going to pay Rich's legal bills and the judgement if
that happens?
>
> The ethical and liability issues aside, consider what could happen to the
hobbyist EV world if
> some kid gets electrocuted by an EV on charge. You know how legislators
work, especially
> when they're lobbied by people whose interests are best served by
marginalizing EVs.
> Chances are, they won't just pass laws banning unisolated and unprotected
chargers, they'll
> ban hobbyist EVs altogether.
>
> Got that GFI? Tested it lately?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The EVWiki (evwiki.org) seems to have been spammed awhile ago. Who manages
that site? It seems like a/the logical place for the community to collect
useful information, but its value is diminished if it's all gummed up with
spam.
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
"The hippies and the hipsters did some great stuff in the sixties,
but the geeks pulled their weight too." -- Billy Bragg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: May C&D Article on White Zombie
>Glad you liked it. Say, wanna pass one around to me? Ironic, isn't it, that I
>have not yet seen the actual magazine? Oh well, I at least have the electronic
>version for now.
Ironic? That's insane!
Here is a thought; I could send you two, then you could autograph one and send
it back to me!
Just so you know, I went out to pick up a couple more copies during lunch.
Well, it's raining here. Actually down-poring, flooding, thundering and
lightning! I'm driving Tweety, my wife's NmG so in addition to all the
storming, I'm getting additional lightning from other drivers camera flashes at
nearly every stop.
So I get there, and the store is sold out!! Isn't that classic!
I'll get some tomorrow...
Ken
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from
AOL at AOL.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Look EVAN
You and I know all EV's chassis should be grounded..
Then you just pop breakers or GFI or break chargers...
That's the Safe way, That's the way that is published in my install manuals.
I don't do that... I don't have a leak or a fault that is dangerous.. and
Yes I check every so often.
I don't find anything hazzardous.. I would find it and remove if I did.
But.. in the last what now 15 years of Ev racing and building.. I find the
efforts of the safe folks is out of line for the acutal hazzards that are
present.
All of us racers and real EV runners almost to a fault don't have GFI or
even chassis grounds hooked up while we are charing. In racing ... it gets
in the way.
The Story to be learned here is that we don't have shocks and ground faluts
or any of the ...Oh Gee we gonna die issues.
Why Because we have clean Battery packs, look for and solve leaks and
potential fail points on a minute by minute bassis, and we watch each others
backs while we are doing seriously fun and dangerous stuff called racing...
And we don't have safety issues. So Standing up on your Soap box once a
year and telling me I have dangerous chargers and habits that I continually
challenge is a Waste of this EV list's bandwidth.
I think one of the points is that we specifically don't run a Grid ground to
a race car.. that way you can't get shocked unless the fault is to the track
from the battery post and wires.
Adding in the grounded chassis adjacent to the pack and charge port just
puts both sides of circuit within hands reach. We don't race or charge in
the wet. We know that's pushing it just a bit too far.
Though in Hydroplane racing.. we draw the line at Salt water...
In a street EV.. or a OEM fools aloud.. EV.. all saftey precautions are
indeed needed . If you can't charge your EV in your shop safley.. you should
not do so in public.
What I am trying to point out here is that with minor amouts of comon sense
.. EVs are pretty darn safe.
Even with Racing and a pretty much lack of safety equipment.. We are still
pretty darn safe.
Adding on Iso and GFI to those that don't have a Safe EV.. is just going to
fool them into thinking they are safe.
Are you a safe Ev driver or are you a fool that needs the added protection??
I hate passive restraints in Cars.. I prefer a 5 point harnes.. And a good
helmet when I get really dangerous.
Maybe this after thought is the main point.. If you really want a safe EV
build it that way to start. Then Iso.NON iso GFI etc is a moot point.
Like air bags are a waste of time if your upper body is strapped to the seat
in the first place.
Real safety takes real actions.
Madman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I prefer the SEVAwiki, wikipedia or the wikibooks over
the multitude of other possible wiki sites that spring
up.
--- skipwrote:
> The EVWiki (evwiki.org) seems to have been spammed
> awhile ago. Who manages
> that site? It seems like a/the logical place for
> the community to collect
> useful information, but its value is diminished if
> it's all gummed up with
> spam.
>
> --
> Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -
> http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
> "The hippies and the hipsters did some great stuff
> in the sixties,
> but the geeks pulled their weight too." -- Billy
> Bragg
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > And never let the neibour Kids mess with your EV while it's
charging.
> Easier said than done, that one. Never charge anywhere except in
> your closed garage? Never let anyone touch it in case they get a
> shock?
So let's take this discussion in a different way... how do you ground a
vehicle best? Using fully grounded equipment makes sense, but is there
an easy way to do supplemental grounding to actual earth?
Reason I ask is that I have a big pine tree that is slowly tearing up my
slab sidewalk, and have an 'opportunity' to replace it -- should I run a
Ufer ground (concrete encased electrode) simultaneously and provide a
secondary ground where I'll be charging? BTW, I had to check the
spelling of that, and Googled up a nice history on Herbert G. Ufer:
http://www.scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm
I'm running a sizable underground conduit from the shop for later use,
as well.
Comments, advice? Laughter? ;)
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> This thread has intrigued me, as I have been thinking
> a lot about converting my current minivan to a hybrid
> vehicle.
It would seem that minivans are particularly well-suited for conversion
to through-the-road hybrid systems. Keep the ICE setup, but use a
smaller tank, and add an electric-converted rear axle. Seems like
there's an opportunity for some manufacture to make a one-size-fits most
rear axle setup...
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> > According to the Safety Regs I should be Dead years ago.
>> >
>> > Funny Why am I NOT????
>
> Not to drag Lee Hart into the discussion, but the difference between the
> way Rich designs
> and the way Lee designs couldn't be more stark. Lee thinks about what
> could go wrong and
> how to prevent it. Rich just thinks, "what could go wrong?"
>
> In a way, I understand where he's coming from. The EV hobbyist community
> generally cares
> very much about what the charger costs and how much power it can produce.
> Safety is well
> down the list. Isolation would cost a fair bit more, so this is "safe
> enough."
>
> I suspect that a lot of execs at Ford said the Pinto was "safe enough,"
> too.
>
> I know, that's a bit of a cheap shot, maybe overly dramatic, but think
> about it. With no
> isolation in the PFC range, GFI protection is critical. I'm pretty sure
> Rich agrees with me on
> that point. But PFCs don't come with this essential safety device (unless
> Rich has changed
> them recently).
>
> It wouldn't be that hard to add one to at least some models. TRC makes
> 250 volt GFIs.
> They're available as panel mount (up to 20 amps IIRC) and integrated into
> power cables (up to
> 30 amps). In quantity it might add $40 or so to the price of the charger.
> Here are a couple of
> examples :
>
> http://www.trcelectrical.com/product.php?Item_ID=929
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160080441188
>
> I'm told that there's a note in the PFC manual suggesting that they be
> connected to GFIs.
> Fine, as far as it goes. But other than GFI breakers, 250 volt GFIs
> aren't the sort of item one
> finds at the local Home Despot. I haven't read the PFC manual, so I don't
> know - does it offer
> any suggestions as to where one might find a 250 volt GFI?
>
> Is suggesting that the user connect the charger to a GFI sufficient to
> ward off liability for any
> hazards or accidents that occur without one?
>
> How many of you who have PFC chargers followed the instructions and fitted
> a GFI when you
> installed them? Is the GFI permanently attached to the cord or to the
> vehicle, so that it's GFI
> protected every time and everywhere you plug in?
>
> How many of you read that note and plan to fit a GFI someday, but just
> haven't gotten round
> to it yet? Do you even know where to buy a 250v GFI?
>
> How many don't think it's very important and aren't going to bother?
>
> How many didn't even notice that sentence in the manual?
>
> Put enough unisolated, non-GFI protected chargers in service, and the law
> of averages is
> going to catch up with you. Who's going to be the first to electrocute
> his kid? The neighbor's
> kid? Even a nonfatal but frightening shock would be enough to prompt a
> lawsuit for pain and
> suffering. Who's going to pay Rich's legal bills and the judgement if
> that happens?
>
> The ethical and liability issues aside, consider what could happen to the
> hobbyist EV world if
> some kid gets electrocuted by an EV on charge. You know how legislators
> work, especially
> when they're lobbied by people whose interests are best served by
> marginalizing EVs.
> Chances are, they won't just pass laws banning unisolated and unprotected
> chargers, they'll
> ban hobbyist EVs altogether.
>
> Got that GFI? Tested it lately?
Did somebody mention a GFCI and an EV charger?
This discussion started with Paul asking if his buggy chassis should be
grounded to the utility. Joe, the designer of Paul's charger, said yes.
Richard, the manufacturer of Paul's charger, said no. Later Richard said
to ground the vehicle chassis, but he himself doesn't ground the chassis.
Confusing? Yes. Correct information or just personal opinion?
Being a manufacturer of EV chargers, I must produce a charger that is
safe. This means meeting the current electrical codes, specifically the
NEC, section 625, that applies to EV charging requirements.
After spending considerable time poring over the NEC, certain requirements
on EV charging present themselves:
1) The charging of an EV shall be GFCI protected, just as any outdoor
receptacle shall be GFCI protected, such as a garage or patio receptacle.
In the EV application a GFCI will shut off power is a leakage is detected
between the propulsion system and vehicle chassis, because...
2) The vehicle chassis shall be grounded. Period. NO exception. With
the vehicle chassis at ground potential, there can be no voltage between
the vehicle chassis and earth, thus no chance of shock between chassis and
ground.
3) The EV charging system considers the EV as a continuous load, so the
utility charging circuit must be sized at 125% of continuous rating. Or,
from another perspective, if the charging system is rated at 100%
(example, 20 amp breaker, 20 amp wiring, 20 amp receptacle) only 80% may
be drawn. (16 amps in this example.)
Our Russco chargers have always had a built-in GFCI, grounded charger case
and grounded vehicle chassis wiring. The installation manual requires the
proper rating receptacle so the charger will never draw over 80% from the
utility circuit.
Anything less is not meeting the requirements of the NEC and is, in my
opinion, an unsafe installation.
Russ Kaufmann
RUSSCO Engineering
http://russcoev.com
The Other PFC Charger With Built In GFCI
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
lyle> I prefer the SEVAwiki, wikipedia or the wikibooks over the
lyle> multitude of other possible wiki sites that spring up.
Got a link for SEVAwiki? Google seems to be blind to it (or I am).
Thx,
Skip
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If I understand correctly, the connection to ground on Rich's PFC
chargers is made back at the utility box, not inside the charger
itself. That is to say, inside the charger, the green and white AC
wires are not connected. The green wire is the only one that's
connected to the charger case, so the charger case gets connected to
ground only when the charger is actually plugged into an AC outlet.
Therefore, when the charger is unplugged from AC, there is no electrical
connection between the traction pack and the charger case (and thus the
car chassis). Did I get that right?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 2007-03-30 at 11:44 -0700, lyle sloan wrote:
> I prefer the SEVAwiki, wikipedia or the wikibooks over
> the multitude of other possible wiki sites that spring
> up.
>
> --- skipwrote:
>
> > The EVWiki (evwiki.org) seems to have been spammed
> > awhile ago. Who manages
> > that site? It seems like a/the logical place for
> > the community to collect
> > useful information, but its value is diminished if
> > it's all gummed up with
> > spam.
> >
I started EVWiki as an experiment some time ago (when my life was
somewhat different and I had a lot more spare time to get into helpful
stuff like this) after being frustrated at the frequency of repeat
questions on EVDL. My plan was to work on it for a few months, build up
some content to make it a respectable offering instead of just a lame
me-too, and then announce it and get people to start contributing to it.
I then saw that useful EV information was starting to appear in
Wikipedia, and the EV-related articles there have expanded in number and
detail since then. It's still proven ineffective at preventing the sort
of stuff that first got me started (hey, I found these great AC motors
on Ebay; what's best, a dc/dc or a big battery?) but the Wikipedia
articles seem good enough to prevent any sort of EV-specific site from
gaining traction, as Lyle has pointed out.
Unless there's a bunch of EV-knowledgeable folks who are interested in
contributing to maintain its content, I really need to take the site
down and give up the name.
--
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was referring to the Seattle Electric Vehicle
Association's home page
http://www.seattleeva.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle . In
my opinion, it is one of the better maintained EV
association sites.
--- skipwrote:
>
> lyle> I prefer the SEVAwiki, wikipedia or the
> wikibooks over the
> lyle> multitude of other possible wiki sites
> that spring up.
>
> Got a link for SEVAwiki? Google seems to be blind
> to it (or I am).
>
> Thx,
>
> Skip
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for earth-friendly autos?
Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm glad to see many on the list coming around to my hybrid approach!
Almost like it is a typical configuration...
Besides the Aspire prototype I'm working on, which BTW, I put in a CVT
belt drive in it that I hope to test this weekend (more info later when
I have data to report) I also own a Taurus Wagon that is being
considered for a hybrid conversion so I can get a vehicle with 4WD that
can tow my sailboat and electric jetski and cars too and take long trips
with my kids. I currently use my Ford Explorer that gets 15mpg and rides
like the truck it is and I want to replace it.
I want an all-wheel-drive IRS car that can tow. But it looks very hard
to put driven wheels in the back of the Taurus. So I've been thinking
about using a Ford T-bird and add a FWD to it, I think that might be
easier, but I do like the gen 2 taurus wagons very much and the 4-door
is important, so I may just take the hard-road and build the 4wd taurus
wagon hybrid. I'd replace the 3.8 v6 with a tiny 4-cyl for the ICE.
What I find really exciting is building late-model custom cars are
possible once again because of electrics, the very restrictive smog
rules that govern ICEs get thrown out the window, so we now have the
freedom to build almost anything again, like its the 60's again :)
Jack
Randy Burleson wrote:
This thread has intrigued me, as I have been thinking
a lot about converting my current minivan to a hybrid
vehicle.
It would seem that minivans are particularly well-suited for conversion
to through-the-road hybrid systems. Keep the ICE setup, but use a
smaller tank, and add an electric-converted rear axle. Seems like
there's an opportunity for some manufacture to make a one-size-fits most
rear axle setup...
Randii
--- End Message ---
