EV Digest 6759
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: With all this talk about NiMH .... Is it still legal to build
sell 120 V / 10 A NiMH Module
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by "Patrick Robin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Belleville washer details
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Need help on Navitas controller strange behavior
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Need help on Navitas controller strange behavior
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: With all this talk about NiMH .... Is it still legal to
build sell 120 V / 10 A NiMH Module
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Need help on Navitas controller strange behavior
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Doin' the math
by Rob&Amy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Doin' the math
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: Need help on Navitas controller strange behavior
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Doin' the math
by Steve Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: magnetic field in EV car?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Motor equations
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: With all this talk about NiMH .... Is it still legal to build
sell 120 V / 10 A NiMH Module
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: FS: never used PFC20 with buck enhancement
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: GRM $2007 Challenge - Brainstorming
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Could the string of D'cells, be stacked on top of each other in a PVC
pipe, with spring loaded endcaps to keep them securely connected?
Pressure contacts work fine for lower-current packs; they are widely
used in consumer product battery boxes, for instance. But as soon as you
are drawing more than a few amps, you need something more substantial.
This is why you see welded interconnects instead.
Maybe even lube the entire mass of batteries in the pipe with a non
conducting compound... would keep the battery contacts from corroding,
might prevent arcing... help with heat sinking
There is merit to this. Cells can generate a lot of heat from high
discharge currents or near the end of a charge cycle, so attention needs
to be paid to getting that heat out of a tightly packed array. I've
considered a liquid coolant, like oil or fluorinert. Use a pump to
circulate it. This might make pressure contacts adequate for higher
currents.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Show me the peer-reviewed scientific studies that show harmful
effects of DC magnetic fields.
Don't worry about the Gauss meter reading when the BS meter is pegged.
Bill D.
At 09:06 AM 5/11/2007, you wrote:
Thanks Bruce for the detailed info.
I would be curious to see the actual numbers.
If anyone has measurments in Gauss or Teslas please post.
Having measured many different kind of equipment myslef I am most curious
about the motor readings since all other electronics can be dealt with by
shielding and positioning. But the motor is like a huge rotating
transfomer and is by far the largest emitter in the car (ignoring the
charging transformer) and the most difficult to shield (normal metal cases
don't help)
As far as what is safe in EMI, unfortunately, all companies still use
safety standards that were determined after world war II when science
firmly beleived the only action electro-magnetic emissions can have on
living things is by heating tissue (microwave standards are also based on
that, if it can't cook you, it can't be bad). Research as come a long way
since then . Many many pier reviewed an dpublished studies have shown the
non-thermal effects of EMI and eventually the safety standards will have
to reflect that but since this is such a huge economical, political and
dissruptive issue, standards will always lag research for business and
political reasons. In the various bio-medical studies, the common trend is
that reproducible effects start to be seen at 3 milliGauss and are
frequency dependent. More effects are seen at ELF than VLF/RF/Microwave
unless those are modulated by ELF. This is counter intuitive based on
energy/wave length alone but that is what the studies show.
Anyway, I do not want to start a debate on this subject, I am only looking
for numbers. Having measured many motors myslef, both small and large, my
main interest is what the numbers are in real life EVs, wether the metal
frame plays a role and how it compares in relation to current electronics
packed modern ICU cars. IE, is there a big difference between an EV and a
ICU car regardless of potential effects.
Thank You
Patrick Robin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Timothy,
Yes please do quote me. Most of what I (and other EVangels) have
done over the years to promote and help the EV cause was for
that purpose.
If anyone does record electro magnetic emission readings, please
consider submitting them to the http://evdl.org faq for future
EV'r use.
...
Patrick,
Sorry, I did not record those readings. Since these safety guys
were sticklers for following current regulations, perhaps one
could work backwards by knowing the electro magnetic field
emissions standards of 1992 in the work place for the Silicon
Valley, CA area.
A little history:
At those (pre-Agilent-split, pre-Carley days) the site was known
as the 'Pacific Technology Park' (PTP) Hewlett-Packard site,
located: 1266 Kifer Rd., Sunnyvale, CA 94086.
The safety person was part of the EHS department and reported to
an Environmental, Health and Safety Manager. I knew the safety
guy previously as he was moved over from the hp Cupertino site
before before I was. He had supported the EHS needs of Cupertino's
(then) eleven building site.
At that time, that hp site developed and maintained: the Real-Time
Computing line which included their Automotive Electronics Test
System line, the sales department for the 'new' CPM Z80 based
terminal and touch screen PC lines, and was home to Corporate's
media relations department (I got to sneak a peak at all their
automotive magazines and post goodies from them to the EVDL -
most media was still paper back then with the media under
utilizing the Internet).
I was the site's Customer Engineer (the hardware guy) that kept
it all working. I mentioned the above because that three building
site had enough activity to warrant an EHS guy to regularly
check for electro magnetic emissions to keep hp workers safe.
Side-bar:
I recently saw the safety guy. He was also part of Carley's lay-
offs, and is now using his stickler-to-detail hp skills as a
manager of a Ham Radio parts store crammed in a shopping strip
off Lawrence Expressway in the Sunnyvale Fry's area. There are
two other Carley-cuts there that work for him.
Old hp'rs do not die, they just hp-way ...
-
Thats a GREAT story, and I am going to quote you in future. "As
measured by an HP safety tester, generally EVs emit less EMI than
microwave ovens, even while at maximum current and acceleration."
--T
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
: MEPIS Linux & WiFi powered :
____________________________________________________________________________________Be
a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5/11/07, Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Show me the peer-reviewed scientific studies that show harmful
effects of DC magnetic fields.
Don't worry about the Gauss meter reading when the BS meter is pegged.
Bill D.
Yeah.. I am really not worried about the magnetic effects, as much as
the EF (Electrical Field) effects. But then those are pretty limited
as long as you pair current carrying cables.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Timothy,
Yes please do quote me. Most of what I (and other EVangels) have
done over the years to promote and help the EV cause was for
that purpose.
If anyone does record electro magnetic emission readings, please
consider submitting them to the http://evdl.org faq for future
EV'r use.
...
Patrick,
Sorry, I did not record those readings. Since these safety guys
were sticklers for following current regulations, perhaps one
could work backwards by knowing the electro magnetic field
emissions standards of 1992 in the work place for the Silicon
Valley, CA area.
A little history:
At those (pre-Agilent-split, pre-Carley days) the site was known
as the 'Pacific Technology Park' (PTP) Hewlett-Packard site,
located: 1266 Kifer Rd., Sunnyvale, CA 94086.
The safety person was part of the EHS department and reported to
an Environmental, Health and Safety Manager. I knew the safety
guy previously as he was moved over from the hp Cupertino site
before before I was. He had supported the EHS needs of Cupertino's
(then) eleven building site.
At that time, that hp site developed and maintained: the Real-Time
Computing line which included their Automotive Electronics Test
System line, the sales department for the 'new' CPM Z80 based
terminal and touch screen PC lines, and was home to Corporate's
media relations department (I got to sneak a peak at all their
automotive magazines and post goodies from them to the EVDL -
most media was still paper back then with the media under
utilizing the Internet).
I was the site's Customer Engineer (the hardware guy) that kept
it all working. I mentioned the above because that three building
site had enough activity to warrant an EHS guy to regularly
check for electro magnetic emissions to keep hp workers safe.
Side-bar:
I recently saw the safety guy. He was also part of Carley's lay-
offs, and is now using his stickler-to-detail hp skills as a
manager of a Ham Radio parts store crammed in a shopping strip
off Lawrence Expressway in the Sunnyvale Fry's area. There are
two other Carley-cuts there that work for him.
Old hp'rs do not die, they just hp-way ...
-
Thats a GREAT story, and I am going to quote you in future. "As
measured by an HP safety tester, generally EVs emit less EMI than
microwave ovens, even while at maximum current and acceleration."
--T
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
: MEPIS Linux & WiFi powered :
____________________________________________________________________________________Looking
for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I have measured my Ford Escape Hybrid and it had levels above what I
> was happy with in the rear seat (all vehicles I have measured have
> high levels in the front seats. I would guess from the alternator) on
> the left hand side where the motor cables connect to the battery. The
> funny thing is that I tracked it down to the battery fan wire and the
> fuel pump wire! yes you heard right 'the fuel pump wire"!
> It is hard to tell what is coming from the motor because of all the
> electronics in the front of the car. I figure the alternator has a
> large magnetic field. Also power windows have high readings while
> they are being operated.
>
> When I get my pickup converted I would be happy to take readings. If
> you want specific numbers on the Escape for now, let me know.
> Large batteries I have measured have a field a few inches above the
> case but it drops off pretty quick.
Thank you Tehben.
That seems encouraging to me. I was expecting the Motor to completely
drown everything else in the car in terms of EMI. Assuming your meter can
read correctly the relatively low (ELF) emissions of the motor.
If your highest reading came from something completely different and wire
based, that can be fixed.
Batteries and wires (as long as you don't have large loops) normaly are
not the issue. If you measure even a small motor in action, it normaly
drowns everything in its suroundind including the wires/battery feeding
it.
I am mainly curious about the readings at the driver/passenger seats and
you seem to say they were not that high. Do you have actual numbers? In
ICE car, numbers are normaly bellow 3 mGauss at the chest but much higher
at the feet (up to 15 mGauss). Anything in that ballpark means there is no
real difference between ICE and EV.
Thanks
Patrick
>
> Tehben
>
> On May 11, 2007, at 7:06 AM, Patrick Robin wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Thanks Bruce for the detailed info.
>>
>> I would be curious to see the actual numbers.
>>
>> If anyone has measurments in Gauss or Teslas please post.
>>
>> Having measured many different kind of equipment myslef I am most
>> curious
>> about the motor readings since all other electronics can be dealt
>> with by
>> shielding and positioning. But the motor is like a huge rotating
>> transfomer and is by far the largest emitter in the car (ignoring the
>> charging transformer) and the most difficult to shield (normal
>> metal cases
>> don't help)
>>
>> As far as what is safe in EMI, unfortunately, all companies still use
>> safety standards that were determined after world war II when science
>> firmly beleived the only action electro-magnetic emissions can have on
>> living things is by heating tissue (microwave standards are also
>> based on
>> that, if it can't cook you, it can't be bad). Research as come a
>> long way
>> since then . Many many pier reviewed an dpublished studies have
>> shown the
>> non-thermal effects of EMI and eventually the safety standards will
>> have
>> to reflect that but since this is such a huge economical, political
>> and
>> dissruptive issue, standards will always lag research for business and
>> political reasons. In the various bio-medical studies, the common
>> trend is
>> that reproducible effects start to be seen at 3 milliGauss and are
>> frequency dependent. More effects are seen at ELF than VLF/RF/
>> Microwave
>> unless those are modulated by ELF. This is counter intuitive based on
>> energy/wave length alone but that is what the studies show.
>>
>> Anyway, I do not want to start a debate on this subject, I am only
>> looking
>> for numbers. Having measured many motors myslef, both small and
>> large, my
>> main interest is what the numbers are in real life EVs, wether the
>> metal
>> frame plays a role and how it compares in relation to current
>> electronics
>> packed modern ICU cars. IE, is there a big difference between an EV
>> and a
>> ICU car regardless of potential effects.
>>
>> Thank You
>>
>> Patrick Robin
>>
>>
>
--
Patrick Robin
http://atelierrobin.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dana Havranek wrote [a good description on using belleville washers]:
One other thing. Take one of your belleville washers and try to bend it
in half with two pairs of pliers. It should be spring steel; i.e. will
spring back. It should not be a soft ordinary washer, which simply bends
and stays bent.
I bought some belleville spring washers from a reputable supplier that
turned out to be junk; ordinary soft steel washers just "dished" to look
like belleville spring washers. Caveat emptor!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
this message doesn't appeared so i try again:
I'm playing with a navitas TSP100-36 which is 24-36V100A bruhed motor
controler.
it's told to accept hall effect and potentiometer, i'm having problem with
potentiometer control.
i use a tested ok 4,7kohms potentiometer connected to + pot, ground pot,
throttle pot as indicated in the manual schematic.
From 0 to 1,5k nothing happen, upper that motor start at a jerk and from now
can be linearly speed controled to full speed.
so my problem is i have no speed control until a brutal start near 1,5kohms
!
What i'm missing ?
thanks for your advise,
Cordialement,
Philippe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think it is the frequency (megahertz) that counts which I guess
maybe in the case of AC is what it is pulsed at. With DC motors I
don't know, they must be creating an electromagnetic field at some
sort of frequency. Even though DC is what is says Direct Current the
controller is pulsing energy to it.
Some studies I believe have shown certain frequencies to be worse
than others.
Anyway all motors put out emf radiation.
I just did a test in the shop using a TriField Meter, I tested DC
hand power tools, AC hand power tools, a drill press and band saw,
and a 3-phase industrial grinder. All of them had electromagnetic
fields which varied between 4 and 8 feet before dropping completely
off. And were well over 100milligause up close. Using the variable
speed trigger vs. full on with the battery hand drill created a
higher field.
I think one of the theories is that we have evolved with the magnetic
and frequency field of the earth and all the electrical things we
have created are running at different frequencies and so mess up our
internal electronics.
Don't worry about the Gauss meter reading when the BS meter is pegged.
Yes there is controversy over this and for example: Cell Phones,
Chemicals in food, Genetic Engineering, Global Warming, Pollution
from SUV's :), Aliens, Nuclear Power, Mac's vs. PC's... the list goes
on. They used to spray DDT on children to kill mosquitoes.(shrug)
I am not claiming anything... (besides my tests I mentioned in the
shop :)
Cheers,
Tehben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't have specific numbers at the moment but I think that with the
alternator (that is what I am guessing is the source) there is not
much difference between EV and ICE. This is not saying that it is ok
because its no different than a gas car ;)
But yep as I recall there was nothing coming off of the high current
battery/motor cable.
The controller and/or inverter will probably put out a lot.
I do know that putting house wiring in metal conduit helps block
magnetic fields while close proximity and twisting helps council the
electrical field.
There seems to be some interest in this issue so I will certainly do
some testing when I get my EV started and finished:P
Tehben
On May 11, 2007, at 9:37 AM, Patrick Robin wrote:
I have measured my Ford Escape Hybrid and it had levels above what I
was happy with in the rear seat (all vehicles I have measured have
high levels in the front seats. I would guess from the alternator) on
the left hand side where the motor cables connect to the battery. The
funny thing is that I tracked it down to the battery fan wire and the
fuel pump wire! yes you heard right 'the fuel pump wire"!
It is hard to tell what is coming from the motor because of all the
electronics in the front of the car. I figure the alternator has a
large magnetic field. Also power windows have high readings while
they are being operated.
When I get my pickup converted I would be happy to take readings. If
you want specific numbers on the Escape for now, let me know.
Large batteries I have measured have a field a few inches above the
case but it drops off pretty quick.
Thank you Tehben.
That seems encouraging to me. I was expecting the Motor to completely
drown everything else in the car in terms of EMI. Assuming your
meter can
read correctly the relatively low (ELF) emissions of the motor.
If your highest reading came from something completely different
and wire
based, that can be fixed.
Batteries and wires (as long as you don't have large loops) normaly
are
not the issue. If you measure even a small motor in action, it normaly
drowns everything in its suroundind including the wires/battery
feeding
it.
I am mainly curious about the readings at the driver/passenger
seats and
you seem to say they were not that high. Do you have actual
numbers? In
ICE car, numbers are normaly bellow 3 mGauss at the chest but much
higher
at the feet (up to 15 mGauss). Anything in that ballpark means
there is no
real difference between ICE and EV.
Thanks
Patrick
Tehben
On May 11, 2007, at 7:06 AM, Patrick Robin wrote:
Thanks Bruce for the detailed info.
I would be curious to see the actual numbers.
If anyone has measurments in Gauss or Teslas please post.
Having measured many different kind of equipment myslef I am most
curious
about the motor readings since all other electronics can be dealt
with by
shielding and positioning. But the motor is like a huge rotating
transfomer and is by far the largest emitter in the car (ignoring
the
charging transformer) and the most difficult to shield (normal
metal cases
don't help)
As far as what is safe in EMI, unfortunately, all companies still
use
safety standards that were determined after world war II when
science
firmly beleived the only action electro-magnetic emissions can
have on
living things is by heating tissue (microwave standards are also
based on
that, if it can't cook you, it can't be bad). Research as come a
long way
since then . Many many pier reviewed an dpublished studies have
shown the
non-thermal effects of EMI and eventually the safety standards will
have
to reflect that but since this is such a huge economical, political
and
dissruptive issue, standards will always lag research for
business and
political reasons. In the various bio-medical studies, the common
trend is
that reproducible effects start to be seen at 3 milliGauss and are
frequency dependent. More effects are seen at ELF than VLF/RF/
Microwave
unless those are modulated by ELF. This is counter intuitive
based on
energy/wave length alone but that is what the studies show.
Anyway, I do not want to start a debate on this subject, I am only
looking
for numbers. Having measured many motors myslef, both small and
large, my
main interest is what the numbers are in real life EVs, wether the
metal
frame plays a role and how it compares in relation to current
electronics
packed modern ICU cars. IE, is there a big difference between an EV
and a
ICU car regardless of potential effects.
Thank You
Patrick Robin
--
Patrick Robin
http://atelierrobin.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm playing with a navitas TSP100-36 which is 24-36V100A bruhed motor
controler.
it's told to accept hall effect and potentiometer, i'm having problem with
potentiometer control.
i use a tested ok 4,7kohms potentiometer connected to + pot, ground pot,
throttle pot as indicated in the manual schematic.
From 0 to 1,5k nothing happen, upper that motor start at a jerk and from now
can be linearly speed controled to full speed.
so my problem is i have no speed control until a brutal start near 1,5kohms
!
What i'm missing ?
thanks for your advise,
Cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait du volant, quel carburant choisiriez-vous
?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 7:08 AM
Subject: Re: With all this talk about NiMH .... Is it still legal to build
sell 120 V / 10 A NiMH Module
Could the string of D'cells, be stacked on top of each other in a PVC
pipe, with spring loaded endcaps to keep them securely connected?
Pressure contacts work fine for lower-current packs; they are widely used
in consumer product battery boxes, for instance. But as soon as you are
drawing more than a few amps, you need something more substantial. This is
why you see welded interconnects instead.
Maybe even lube the entire mass of batteries in the pipe with a non
conducting compound... would keep the battery contacts from corroding,
might prevent arcing... help with heat sinking
There is merit to this. Cells can generate a lot of heat from high
discharge currents or near the end of a charge cycle, so attention needs
to be paid to getting that heat out of a tightly packed array. I've
considered a liquid coolant, like oil or fluorinert. Use a pump to
circulate it. This might make pressure contacts adequate for higher
currents.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:08 PM 5/10/2007, Lee Hart wrote:
Could the string of D'cells, be stacked on top of each other in a PVC
pipe, with spring loaded endcaps to keep them securely connected?
Pressure contacts work fine for lower-current packs; they are widely
used in consumer product battery boxes, for instance. But as soon as
you are drawing more than a few amps, you need something more
substantial. This is why you see welded interconnects instead.
What about putting some conductive foam between the batteries to help
spread the conduction area?
Even a piece of steel wool (hmm, don't they make copper wool as well?)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5/11/07, Philippe Borges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>From 0 to 1,5k nothing happen, upper that motor start at a jerk and from now
can be linearly speed controled to full speed.
so my problem is i have no speed control until a brutal start near 1,5kohms
!
Hi Philippe, I think you can tune the throttle settings (min, max,
ramp etc) by PC for those controllers.. Might be worth a try?
Best regards
Evan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here are my numbers if anyone's interested. I set out to prove that
6V floodies weren't that cheap, guess I was wrong :-) Performance
really isn't there for my application though. Once you get into the
12V flooded though, it looks like you might as well go AGM.
The numbers I'm targeting are a 2500lb vehicle plus ~1000-1200lb
pack. That puts me right up around the GVW rating for the vehicle
with 1-2 passengers. Daily Commute is ~15mi round trip, mostly 65mph
freeway driving. Commute 5 days a week, 50 weeks/yr for 250 cycles
per year. For now I'm assuming controller current limit of 500A and
a Warp 9 motor.
Case 1: USB 1-HC (the lightest 6V GC FLAs I could find)
Assumptions Imax = 300A, Ri = 0.008Ohm, Price $50?
2x19 pack yields 114V and 1140 lbs.
Max level speed is ~70mph
Max speed on 10% grade is ~35mph
0-60 is ~22.4s
65mph require 280A @103V, 140A per string results in 48.75Ah capacity
per string down from 95Ah.
range is 22.4 mi @ 65mph, so 15mi per day is ~67% DOD
@67% DOD lifecycle is ~700 or 2.8yrs
$1900 packs every 2.8 years @ 3750mi/yr = $0.18 per mile
Case 2: Trojan T105 FLA
Assumptions Imax = 500A, Ri = 0.004Ohm, Price = $100
1x18 pack yields 108V and 1116 lbs
Max level speed is ~65mph
Max speed on 10% grade is ~30mph
0-60 is ~25.1s
65mph require 349A @ 82.9V, results in 100 Ah capacity down from 225Ah.
range is 18.4 mi @ 65mph, so 15mi per day is ~81.5% DOD
@80% DOD lifecycle is 754 or ~3yrs
$1800 packs every 3 years @ 3750mi/yr = $0.16 per mile
Case 3: Trojan 30XHS FLA
Assumptions Ri = 0.008Ohm, price = $150
1x17 pack yields 204V and 1122 lbs
Max level speed is ~92mph
Max speed on 10% grade is ~52mph
0-60 is ~13.1s
65mph require 158.5A @ 182V, results in 59 Ah capacity down from 130Ah.
range is 24.1 mi @ 65mph, so 15mi per day is ~62% DOD
@80% DOD lifecycle is 300, so lets say 62% is 450 or ~1.8yrs
$2550 packs every 1.8 years @ 3750mi/yr = $0.37 per mile
Case 4: Lifeline/Concorde GPL-31T AGM
Assumptions Ri = 0.005Ohm, price = $230
1x16 pack yields 192V and 1104 lbs
Max level speed is ~96mph
Max speed on 10% grade is ~57mph
0-60 is ~13.6s
65mph require 161A @ 179V, results in 59.8 Ah capacity down from 105Ah.
range is 23.9 mi @ 65mph, so 15mi per day is ~62% DOD
@63% DOD lifecycle is 800 or ~3.2yrs
$3680 packs every 3.2 years @ 3750mi/yr = $0.30 per mile
Case 5: Deka Intimidator 9A34 AGM
Assumptions Ri = 0.003Ohm, price = $109
2x14 pack yields 168V and 1148 lbs
Max level speed is ~100mph
Max speed on 10% grade is ~80mph
0-60 is ~15.2s
65mph require 174.5A @ 166V, results in 47.4Ah capacity per string
down from 55Ah.
range is 35.06 mi @ 65mph, so 15mi per day is ~43% DOD
@43% DOD lifecycle is ~500 or ~2yrs
$3052 packs every 2 years @ 3750mi/yr = $0.41 per mile
Rob
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The needle on the BS meter has now spun around three times and has
flown off. :-)
You are concerned about 100 milliGauss. I have personally
worked in DC fields as high as 150,000,000 milliGauss. If 100
milliGuass DC was at all harmful, I would be dead 1,500,000 times over!
The typical MRI scan is 15,000 Gauss. (15,000,000 milliGauss)
The Earth's field is about 300 milliGauss. I guess we all will die
from that very quickly as it is 3 times the amount you are concerned about.
Again, show me the peer-reviewed scientific studies that show that DC
fields are harmful. There are none because DC fields are not harmful.
Bill Dube'
At 12:15 PM 5/11/2007, you wrote:
I think it is the frequency (megahertz) that counts which I guess
maybe in the case of AC is what it is pulsed at. With DC motors I
don't know, they must be creating an electromagnetic field at some
sort of frequency. Even though DC is what is says Direct Current the
controller is pulsing energy to it.
Some studies I believe have shown certain frequencies to be worse
than others.
Anyway all motors put out emf radiation.
I just did a test in the shop using a TriField Meter, I tested DC
hand power tools, AC hand power tools, a drill press and band saw,
and a 3-phase industrial grinder. All of them had electromagnetic
fields which varied between 4 and 8 feet before dropping completely
off. And were well over 100milligause up close. Using the variable
speed trigger vs. full on with the battery hand drill created a
higher field.
I think one of the theories is that we have evolved with the magnetic
and frequency field of the earth and all the electrical things we
have created are running at different frequencies and so mess up our
internal electronics.
Don't worry about the Gauss meter reading when the BS meter is pegged.
Yes there is controversy over this and for example: Cell Phones,
Chemicals in food, Genetic Engineering, Global Warming, Pollution
from SUV's :), Aliens, Nuclear Power, Mac's vs. PC's... the list goes
on. They used to spray DDT on children to kill mosquitoes.(shrug)
I am not claiming anything... (besides my tests I mentioned in the
shop :)
Cheers,
Tehben
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--- Begin Message ---
Rob> Here are my numbers if anyone's interested.
Got a spreadsheet? I'm new to all these calculations. It would be helpful
for me to examine your equations.
Thx,
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
"The hippies and the hipsters did some great stuff in the sixties,
but the geeks pulled their weight too." -- Billy Bragg
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Evan,
unfortunately not this one.
Cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait du volant, quel carburant choisiriez-vous
?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 8:58 PM
Subject: Re: Need help on Navitas controller strange behavior
On 5/11/07, Philippe Borges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>From 0 to 1,5k nothing happen, upper that motor start at a jerk and from
>now
can be linearly speed controled to full speed.
so my problem is i have no speed control until a brutal start near
1,5kohms
!
Hi Philippe, I think you can tune the throttle settings (min, max,
ramp etc) by PC for those controllers.. Might be worth a try?
Best regards
Evan
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--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 2007-05-11 at 14:19 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Rob> Here are my numbers if anyone's interested.
>
> Got a spreadsheet? I'm new to all these calculations. It would be helpful
> for me to examine your equations.
>
> Thx,
One is available here:
http://www.evconvert.com/batteries.zip
Also, check around his site, he has some other tools you may find
handy.
--Steve
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--- Begin Message ---
Patrick Robin wrote:
Having measured many different kind of equipment myself I am most
curious about the motor readings since all other electronics can be
dealt with by shielding and positioning. But the motor is like a huge
rotating transfomer and is by far the largest emitter in the car
I don't think you will find this to be the case with EV motors. They are
built quite a bit differently than the normal open-frame AC motors you
find in consumer products.
An EV motor is in a very thick, strong steel case. There are very few
ventilation holes if it's air cooled, and *none* if it's liquid cooled.
As a consequence, the motor itself has very little external magnetic field.
The wires going to the motor radiate far more than the motor itself.
They are often completely unshielded, and not even bundled close
together. This is easily fixed -- put the terminals in a terminal box,
and pair the wires in a single conduit to shield them. This is standard
practice in most industrial motors.
(ignoring the charging transformer)
Transformers come in many sizes and types. Some are very good, and some
are very poor. I think the main problem is most designers that pick a
transformer don't think about its EMI.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Steve Peterson wrote:
> I got the curves from the EVParts site:
>
>
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=536&product_id=11
28
>
> All I know is one graph says "Ventilated - Not Fan Cooled"
> and the other says "Fan Cooled". The EVParts site doesn't say which
> version they sell, so as a newbie, I was at a loss to really be sure
> which version Uwe's calculator referred to.
Fan-cooled. AFAIK, every ADC motor you buy new will have the internal
fan present.
> But it gets better: I was alerted to this whole issue because
> I noticed a couple of local EVers had directed the output of
> some small external fans into their ADC motors--so I figured
> they were creating the "fan cooled" version.
The internal fan is on the motor shaft, so it only spins when the motor
spins, and provides little cooling airflow when the motor is spinning
slowly. Some people add external blowers to give the motor more cooling
air, especially at low speeds where the internal fan is less effective.
> Having noticed that the curves were much better for the fan-cooled
> version (as you'd expect).
Actually, I'd expect the opposite! The internal fan *consumes* some of
the shaft torque and leaves less available at the shaft for external
loads (i.e. turning the wheels). The curves do show that the motor
without the fan delivers more torque per amp, which is what I would
expect (although I didn't expect the RPM at that load to be lower w/o
the fan...).
> > The first entry on Uve's motor page is for the standard FB4001 (with
> > internal fan):
> >
> > <http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/8679/motor.html>
>
> That may be, but if you use Uwe's (n,k) values (1.55, .0085) for the
> FB4001 and calc the points for the torque vs. amps line, you'll find
> they match (within 6-7% worst case) the ADC chart for "Ventilated--not
> fan cooled" and fit less well the chart for "Fan Cooled".
> That (plus the EVers with their fans) lead me to believe the
calculator
> was really modelling the "not fan cooled" motor.
Unfortunately, Uwe's calculator doesn't identify what curves/values were
used to derive the paramters for his model of the FB1-4001, so we can
only guess.
> I'd do that, but the whole reason I started looking into this
> is that I *do* need some confidence in the numbers at the low
> RPM/high torque extreme because I actually need more RPM at
> the higher torque levels if I'm going to climb some 8% grades
> at 50 mph or so.
More RPM at the same (high) torque suggests that you need to run more
voltage than what the curves are for. This is a problem with the
curve-fit model used by the calculator: it may fit the motor curve you
plug in for a specific voltage, but may not accurately reflect the
behaviour if try to simulate the motor with a different pack voltage.
What I'd be more concerned with here is how long that 8% grade is, and
what power for how long is required to climb it. Check the motor
thermal specs to see if it can even sustain the required power level for
the required time without overheating.
Cheers,
Roger.
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>>Pressure contacts work fine for lower-current packs; they are widely
>>used in consumer product battery boxes, for instance. But as soon as
>>you are drawing more than a few amps, you need something more
>>substantial. This is why you see welded interconnects instead.
>
> What about putting some conductive foam between the batteries to help
> spread the conduction area?
I used to build cheap preassure sensors using conductive foam. Sandwitch
a peice of foam between two copper discs and you have a variable resistor
who's value changes with the ammount of preasure applied.
Putting resistors between each contact in a battery pack doesn't sound
like a good idea to me.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually I was being a bit of a smartass and trying to get you to post how
much you wanted for the regs. Apparently it didn't work.
>> Same deal? Do you mean $1800 for 10 regs? Seems a little steep.
>
> Oddly, this is the oldest message I sent, and it appeared just now. I
> don't know why. No, what I meant was same deal in terms of using them in
> the car in PA, which when I am less screwed I will explain.
>
> And the PFC20, well, $1650 if you want it now.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Well, let's see... If the point is to win a race, not build a practical
> daily driver, then cheap starting batteries will be fine. They'll supply
> lots of power for a short time, but be shot after a dozen deep cycles.
> That's OK -- put your "good" deep-cycle batteries in it for normal
> driving.
People only replace their starting batteries when they can no longer start
the car. The Winners in this race ar hitting 10's in the quater mile and
the top 25 are in the 14's
Do you REALLY think you can be that competitive with batteries that are so
worn out they won't even start a car? Actually, do you even think you
could do it with BRAND NEW starting batteries?
> Find an old car (to be cheap) that has good suspension (to have a chance
> at the autocross) and strong drive train (for the drag race). Something
> that also looks good (for the show). A 1965-69 Corvair or Beetle with a
> lightweight fiberglass body (Bradley GT) occurs to me, but I'm sure
> there are other candidates.
They had a bettle race last year. It came in near the back of the pack,
and that was WITHOUT adding a 1/2 ton of lead.
> Get a *big* old forklift motor, and have Jim Husted work his magic on
> it.
You'd have to pay him his fair market value, or deduct that ammount if he
did it for free. Plus, unless you live in Oregon, you'd have to deduct
the shipping costs. I'm guessing that would blow most of your $2007 budget
on the motor alone.
> On appearance, give it the Wayland touch -- something that will make
> them sit up and take notice, and *remember* you. Wild sound system
> (which doesn't have to cost much), and meticulous attention to detail
> (labor).
>
> Even if you don't win, you'll sure have a heck of a lot of fun in the
> process, and surprise a lot of people! :-)
If you were really lucky and stumbled on some really sweet details, you
/might/ be able to build a car that managed last place in every event.
Even then, I think you'd have to start with an electric car, maybe an old
Commuta Car, or a NEV.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
