EV Digest 6818
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Lots of KillaCycle News
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Triangle wave generator
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Triangle wave generator
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Lots of KillaCycle News
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars ?
by Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars ?
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars ?
by Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Barkley Coggin wants to chat
by "Barkley Coggin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars ?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EVLN(Seabury Hall student Maui cruiser EV conversion)-long
by "martin emde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars ?
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Transmission Question
by Peter Eckhoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Transmission Question
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) New Member and a Project
by "Timothy W. Foreman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Transmission Question
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Transmission Question
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dana Havranek)
--- Begin Message ---
We have been busy lately. I'm going to put this info up on the
website soon, but I thought I'd give you folks a sneak preview:
>> NEDRA Wayland Invitational July 13th-14th <<
We are all set to go to the Wayland Invitational at PIR July
13th-14th. We are very excited about this.
>>> Wired NextFest Sept 13th - 16th <<
We have been invited to the Wired magazine "NextFest", Sept 13 - 16
in L.A. and we are gearing up to go. This is the ultimate "latest
technology" exhibit and we are honored to be invited.
http://www.wirednextfest.com/
>> NHRA Nationals Oct 24th - 28th <<
We still have some details to take care of, but it looks like we
will be running exhibition at the NHRA Nationals at Las Vegas October
24th through the 28th. This is also a real honor to get a slot in
this very major drag racing event.
>>> Newest KillaCycle Team member, Rebecca <<<
As you can see, things are really hopping for us lately. We have a
new team member that you will all get to meet at the Wayland
Invitational. Rebecca Bowering has joined on both as a pit crew
member and (thank god) to help us with the display type shows. We
have been turning down invitations to display the KillaCycle because
we just don't have the vacation time to spare to transport and
display the bike at all these events. In addition to being on the pit
crew at racing events, Rebecca is our new, self-appointed, "Road Show
Princess". She will take care of all our display type events, letting
the rest of us concentrate on making the bike go faster. She will
book these events, drive the rig to trade shows and car shows, set up
the display, and man the booth to tell folks all about the
KillaCycle, the batteries, EV drag racing, etc.
We are delighted to find such a charming, intelligent, and
knowledgeable person to take care of this end of the racing program for us.
You can see a few snapshots of Rebecca in the team photos section of
the KillaCycle web page:
http://www.killacycle.com/photos/teamphotos/
and also in the calendar girls section of Electrifying Times:
http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/KillaCycle/rebecca_bowering_killacycle_pit.html
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: tt2tjw
> Is there any reason to build your own other than being interested in
> electronics?
Yes!
Power modules like this are very conservative. Powerex doesn't know how you
will use it, so they design in a much larger safety margin -- more drive, more
isolation, more speed than necessary in most applications. You pay extra for
this safety margin.
Suppose you have a specialized application, like a low-voltage AC drive for a
fork lift. Then the isolation and high-voltage requirements aren't nearly as
bad, so you can design a far simpler (and cheaper) driver.
Suppose you work for a big company, designing a product that they plan to
manufacture by the millions. Then it is worth a year's salary to design
something that saves ten cents per unit.
Suppose you've already designed a similar product, so your parts bin already
has parts that while not appropriate, would work. Then you might use them in
your new design as an expedient solution.
Technology marches forward. Next year, there might be a new chip or circuit
that makes it much easier than last year's solution.
--
I would not waste my life in friction when it could be turned into momentum. --
Frances Willard
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't see how even a skilled engineer could build their own version
cheaper unless their time was worth nothing.
Is there any reason to build your own other than being interested in
electronics?
Yes, if you're building many more than maybe 20 or 50 of the
same product, you can build it much cheaper than the module.
Also, the module is a through-hole part that stands vertically
from the board. That is actually a pain since most boards
these days are designed as surface-mount. Using this module
means you have a multiple-step assembly process, and you
have to support it from vibration. None of these are a big
problem but the manufacturing steps do add cost as well.
For a small volume, the added hassle is less than the time
to design and debug your own gate driver, but when the volumes
go up it gets to be too expensive.
Even using the module takes some engineering time - the layout
of the circuitry around it needs a lot of care anyways. Also,
it is easier to customize the gate drive if you are designing
your own, although that is probably not a big issue, in the
end.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
WOOHOO Hot Dang, Bill and crew.
--- Bill Dube wrote:
> We have been busy lately. I'm going to put this info
> up on the
> website soon, but I thought I'd give you folks a
> sneak preview:
>
> >> NEDRA Wayland Invitational July 13th-14th <<
> We are all set to go to the Wayland Invitational at
> PIR July
> 13th-14th. We are very excited about this.
>
> >>> Wired NextFest Sept 13th - 16th <<
> We have been invited to the Wired magazine
> "NextFest", Sept 13 - 16
> in L.A. and we are gearing up to go. This is the
> ultimate "latest
> technology" exhibit and we are honored to be
> invited.
> http://www.wirednextfest.com/
>
> >> NHRA Nationals Oct 24th - 28th <<
> We still have some details to take care of, but it
> looks like we
> will be running exhibition at the NHRA Nationals at
> Las Vegas October
> 24th through the 28th. This is also a real honor to
> get a slot in
> this very major drag racing event.
>
> >>> Newest KillaCycle Team member, Rebecca <<<
>
> As you can see, things are really hopping for us
> lately. We have a
> new team member that you will all get to meet at the
> Wayland
> Invitational. Rebecca Bowering has joined on both as
> a pit crew
> member and (thank god) to help us with the display
> type shows. We
> have been turning down invitations to display the
> KillaCycle because
> we just don't have the vacation time to spare to
> transport and
> display the bike at all these events. In addition to
> being on the pit
> crew at racing events, Rebecca is our new,
> self-appointed, "Road Show
> Princess". She will take care of all our display
> type events, letting
> the rest of us concentrate on making the bike go
> faster. She will
> book these events, drive the rig to trade shows and
> car shows, set up
> the display, and man the booth to tell folks all
> about the
> KillaCycle, the batteries, EV drag racing, etc.
>
> We are delighted to find such a charming,
> intelligent, and
> knowledgeable person to take care of this end of the
> racing program for us.
>
> You can see a few snapshots of Rebecca in the team
> photos section of
> the KillaCycle web page:
> http://www.killacycle.com/photos/teamphotos/
> and also in the calendar girls section of
> Electrifying Times:
>
http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/KillaCycle/rebecca_bowering_killacycle_pit.html
>
> Bill Dube'
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________Got
a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Would taking a length of copper tubing, run it through
some rollers to flatten it, cut it to needed lengths,
drill holes to match the batteries threaded posts
along with using the following silverplating compound
on the bussbars and lock washers:
http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/silverpl.htm
Work for interconnecting the batteries in a battery
bank? I don't mind using either rigid or soft copper
tubing, it seems like an easy solution for
interconnecting batteries, and thought that the silver
plating might help keep down corrosion.
I want to get away from lead terminal clamps and
copper wire, that has to many joints to keep in check
with. I've arranged the batteries in the bank, so
that all the buss bars will connect in a way that the
refill caps (using flooded batts) are accessible
without removing any interconnections.
Michael Barkley
www.texomaev.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The problem I see with this is connecting the terminals rigidly. You need
flex when connecting in a moving vehicle. How about taking a stack of real
thin copper strips with holes drilled in each end. Stack them to get your
current requirement. You can by a roll of copper strip 1" wide that's
really thin and flexible.
If you use a tube, it will probably either crack at the hole once it work
hardens, or fatigue the battery terminal which can cause leaks, cracks, etc.
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Barkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 11:42 AM
Subject: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars ?
Would taking a length of copper tubing, run it through
some rollers to flatten it, cut it to needed lengths,
drill holes to match the batteries threaded posts
along with using the following silverplating compound
on the bussbars and lock washers:
http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/silverpl.htm
Work for interconnecting the batteries in a battery
bank? I don't mind using either rigid or soft copper
tubing, it seems like an easy solution for
interconnecting batteries, and thought that the silver
plating might help keep down corrosion.
I want to get away from lead terminal clamps and
copper wire, that has to many joints to keep in check
with. I've arranged the batteries in the bank, so
that all the buss bars will connect in a way that the
refill caps (using flooded batts) are accessible
without removing any interconnections.
Michael Barkley
www.texomaev.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks guys, I knew someone would know if it was a
good or bad idea..... Keep me on my toes!
I'll keep my ol' wrench handy, along with some axle
grease.
Boy, it's hard to be lazy.........
--- "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The problem I see with this is connecting the
> terminals rigidly. You need
> flex when connecting in a moving vehicle. How about
> taking a stack of real
> thin copper strips with holes drilled in each end.
> Stack them to get your
> current requirement. You can by a roll of copper
> strip 1" wide that's
> really thin and flexible.
>
> If you use a tube, it will probably either crack at
> the hole once it work
> hardens, or fatigue the battery terminal which can
> cause leaks, cracks, etc.
>
> -Phil
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Barkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 11:42 AM
> Subject: Copper tubing & Silver Plating for bussbars
> ?
>
>
> > Would taking a length of copper tubing, run it
> through
> > some rollers to flatten it, cut it to needed
> lengths,
> > drill holes to match the batteries threaded posts
> > along with using the following silverplating
> compound
> > on the bussbars and lock washers:
> >
> > http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/silverpl.htm
> >
> > Work for interconnecting the batteries in a
> battery
> > bank? I don't mind using either rigid or soft
> copper
> > tubing, it seems like an easy solution for
> > interconnecting batteries, and thought that the
> silver
> > plating might help keep down corrosion.
> >
> > I want to get away from lead terminal clamps and
> > copper wire, that has to many joints to keep in
> check
> > with. I've arranged the batteries in the bank, so
> > that all the buss bars will connect in a way that
> the
> > refill caps (using flooded batts) are accessible
> > without removing any interconnections.
> >
> > Michael Barkley
> >
> > www.texomaev.com
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
From Michael barkley:
Would taking a length of copper tubing...flatten it, cut it to needed lengths,
drill holes to match the batteries threaded posts
..bussbars...Work for interconnecting the batteries in a battery
bank?
From Phil:
The problem I see with this is connecting the
terminals rigidly.
If you use a tube, it will probably either crack at
the hole once it work
hardens, or fatigue the battery terminal which can
cause leaks, cracks, etc.
Or, you can build your EV properly with solid construction techniques
and use solid bus bars with no problems at all.
Well-designed battery compartments and hold-down brackets that don't
allow the batteries to wobble and move about in a road-going EV make it
fine for using bus bars.
I just finished the swap-out of the tired 6+ year old Optima YTs for
Exide Blue Top Orbitals in Blue Meanie over this long weekend. This car
has had solid bus bars since 2000, so it's a great test bed for this
discussion...never a loose connection, never any battery terminal
damage, and all 13 of these worn-out batteries had zero corrosion
anywhere with no plastic-to-lead terminal breaches due to the bus bars.
Seven of the 13 batteries were even mounted in a roll-out motorized
compartment, so the batteries were moved often...still no problems at
all with bus bars. The batteries look so good in fact, that many at work
pick through my recycled lead (some were removed last week and placed on
a pallet with all the other wet-cell leakers, fizzlers, and oozers)
thinking these are new batteries an inexperienced tech might have
mis-diagnosed as bad!
If one designs their EV in a helter-skelter fashion with little pride in
workmanship, then yes, flexible cables and or flat conductive braided
straps are the safest way to go for Phil's above stated reasons.
However, let it be known that bus bars 'can' be used with great
reliability...all it takes is secure battery mounting and containment.
In my example of Meanie's motorized rear slide-out tray, we designed it
with thick 10 gauge stainless steel and formed it with specific folds
and bends to make it an extremely rigid frame in which to mount 315 lbs.
of batteries. Again, not one instance of any problems at all. In fact,
before going to the bus bars, the 1st version (pre-2000) had flexible
1/0 cabling between the batteries, and because the cables themselves
could flex and move under this car's hard 0-60 launches and acceleration
forces, one cable wiggled loose at a terminal and caused a partial post
melt-down.
I also use bus bars in White Zombie as stout, short, and simple high
current connections between all 60 of its batteries. Again, never a
problem with any of them...and these batteries are subjected to extreme
forces in a car that accelerates so hard it drains away blood from one's
retinas..it's a car that leaps off the pavement, pounds down the track,
then is braked in an extreme slow-down with high G-forces at the finish
line. Of course, we 'do' check the tightness of the 120 terminal bolts
often in this car!
In general, flexible cables are the best way of inter-connecting EV
batteries. I just wanted to chime in, that you 'can' reliably use bus
bars, too.
side bar (pun intended)....I was curious as how to correctly spell 'bus
bar', so I did some research and found that it seems no one agrees on
the correct way. I found these examples from companies that either build
or sell them, one even used two different spellings one line above the
other:
bus bars
buss bars
bus-bars
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
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--- Begin Message ---
The problem is that cars flex as they travel down the road.
Cars are not all that stiff. The batteries also move slightly as they
heat up and cool down. You just can't clamp the batteries perfectly
rigidly in place, so consequently they always shift and move slightly
as the car goes over bumps. If you notice, they sell front shock
tower braces to help hold the front end in proper alignment during
hard cornering. This is because the whole car flexes as it goes
around corners. Everything moves and flexes when you apply a force,
it is just a matter of degree. Nothing is perfectly rigid. Everything
flexes. It is just a matter of degree.
When all this happens, the stiff connections push around the
battery terminals and sometimes break the surprisingly delicate
plastic seal around the post. Corrosion then begins and AGMs will not
pressurize correctly. The stiff connections also work loose the
terminals on a regular basis.
You will find that the same folks that use stiff
interconnects will tell you how important it is to re-tighten your
connections on a regular basis.
I have almost 40,000 miles on my NiCad pack and the
terminals stay tight. I spot check a few every time I put in
distilled water, and none have ever loosened up. They are as tight as
the day I installed them.
I make nice flex jumpers with two short sections of copper
tubing for ends, and several layers of 3/4" copper braid for the
middle. I deform the copper tube sections into ovals, then insert the
copper braid. I then hammer the copper tube flat. Next, I punch a
hole in the center of each flat copper end. (Drilling works, but
punching is slightly better.)
The bolt on the battery post helps hold this sandwich
together and this copper sandwich has enough spring in it to keep the
lug nice and tight.
Here is a picture of these style interconnects on the TMF pack on the
KillaCycle:
http://www.killacycle.com/photos/blue/kcclose2.jpg
Another advantage of flexible connections is that as long as
they aren't too short, they don't have to be the exact perfect length.
Bill Dube'
At 11:42 AM 5/27/2007, you wrote:
Would taking a length of copper tubing, run it through
some rollers to flatten it, cut it to needed lengths,
drill holes to match the batteries threaded posts
along with using the following silverplating compound
on the bussbars and lock washers:
http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/silverpl.htm
Work for interconnecting the batteries in a battery
bank? I don't mind using either rigid or soft copper
tubing, it seems like an easy solution for
interconnecting batteries, and thought that the silver
plating might help keep down corrosion.
I want to get away from lead terminal clamps and
copper wire, that has to many joints to keep in check
with. I've arranged the batteries in the bank, so
that all the buss bars will connect in a way that the
refill caps (using flooded batts) are accessible
without removing any interconnections.
Michael Barkley
www.texomaev.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
May 27, 2007
Transmission question
There are many people on this listserv who know the mechanics of cars
better than I, and I ask for your advice. It's about the transmission in my electric
truck.
I converted a 1988 Chevy S-10 pickup to electric in 2000. It had
about 120K miles when I did the conversion, and I have driven it about
25K miles since. The transmission is a 5-speed stick, made by Borg-Warner, and I am told
that it was a very common transmission for 1980's GM cars and small
trucks. This is good.
I did nothing with the transmission when I converted it. It was filled
with automatic transmission fluid, which a local mechanic said was OK. However in a
couple years it started to leak through the rear seal and the gasket between its two
main housings. To minimize the leak, I drained the AT fluid and
replaced it with 85-weight gear oil. This worked, reducing but not eliminating the
leak, and I keep an eye on it never to let it get too low, though there is a nice hard
oil spot in my gravel driveway now.
In the last year some things have gotten worse. First and second gears are noisy, while third and fourth are quiet. I
never use fifth. Reverse makes a grinding sound, louder than 1st or 2nd.
It is sometimes difficult to shift into 1st, 2nd, and reverse. 3rd and
4th are always easy.
I am unhappy with the noise it is making. One of the main
characteristics of an EV is its silence, and the transmission, in 1st and 2nd, is as noisy as a
small gas car.
I will to pull the motor-transmission-clutch disk assembly and inspect
it. Assuming I find nothing unusual, I am not sure what to do with the transmission. So
here are several questions:
As an electrical engineer who has the usual mechanics tools, but
nothing special for a transmission, am I competent to rebuild the transmission? Should I?
Should I take the transmission to a transmission shop for an rebuild?
Is there one in the Chapel Hill-Durham-Raleigh area [of North Carolina] that you would recommend? Can you
speculate on the cost?
Should I buy a rebuilt transmission? A new one? Costs?
What are the consequences of doing nothing?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter,
While I don't have an s10, I think the experience
with my Civic will be instructive.
At 98K, my rig had done about equal amounts of
stop & go city, and 5th gear 55-70 mph hwy. I was of
the mindset that "anything Honda lasts forever". I
had no unusual sounds from the tranny.
Right after converting it, I had a _horrible_
sound in 1st gear, and somewhat in second. Tranny
experts took a listen; I used a mechanic's stethoscope
but all they could say was "yeah, it _might_ be your
tranny. In other words, it _might_ also be that your
machinist screwed up. Or it _might_ be a motor
bearing or somesuch.
So I bit the bullet and paid $300 for a Civvy
tranny with 137K miles on it. Had a local JC (no cost
for labor) install it. The sound has gone bye-bye,
and I'm a happy and silent EVer.
So for the time being, I've learned:
-my machinist is a genius,
- Civvy trannies _don't_ last forever.
- ADC makes a durable motor bearing.
- the way a DC series-wound motor loads the
transmission can cause changes in the way a
transmission sounds, and cause worn bearings or gears
to become much more apparent.
BTW, it would've been $700 to repair my old
transmission, and I think that was _without_ labor
included. Hopefully that answers your question on
what is the best route to go. My wrecking yard
assured me the tranny was fine when they pulled it,
and that they'd give me another if it wasn't.
All the best to you, as you troubleshoot it.
--- Peter Eckhoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> May 27, 2007
>
> Transmission question
>
> There are many people on this listserv who know the
> mechanics of cars
> better than I, and I ask for your advice. It's
> about the transmission in my electric
> truck.
>
> I converted a 1988 Chevy S-10 pickup to electric in
> 2000. It had
> about 120K miles when I did the conversion, and I
> have driven it about
> 25K miles since. The transmission is a 5-speed
> stick, made by Borg-Warner, and I am told
> that it was a very common transmission for 1980's GM
> cars and small
> trucks. This is good.
>
> I did nothing with the transmission when I converted
> it. It was filled
> with automatic transmission fluid, which a local
> mechanic said was OK. However in a
> couple years it started to leak through the rear
> seal and the gasket between its two
> main housings. To minimize the leak, I drained the
> AT fluid and
> replaced it with 85-weight gear oil. This worked,
> reducing but not eliminating the
> leak, and I keep an eye on it never to let it get
> too low, though there is a nice hard
> oil spot in my gravel driveway now.
>
> In the last year some things have gotten worse.
> First and second gears are noisy, while third and
> fourth are quiet. I
> never use fifth. Reverse makes a grinding sound,
> louder than 1st or 2nd.
> It is sometimes difficult to shift into 1st, 2nd,
> and reverse. 3rd and
> 4th are always easy.
>
> I am unhappy with the noise it is making. One of
> the main
> characteristics of an EV is its silence, and the
> transmission, in 1st and 2nd, is as noisy as a
> small gas car.
>
> I will to pull the motor-transmission-clutch disk
> assembly and inspect
> it. Assuming I find nothing unusual, I am not sure
> what to do with the transmission. So
> here are several questions:
>
> As an electrical engineer who has the usual
> mechanics tools, but
> nothing special for a transmission, am I competent
> to rebuild the transmission? Should I?
> Should I take the transmission to a transmission
> shop for an rebuild?
> Is there one in the Chapel Hill-Durham-Raleigh area
> [of North Carolina] that you would recommend? Can
> you
> speculate on the cost?
>
> Should I buy a rebuilt transmission? A new one?
> Costs?
> What are the consequences of doing nothing?
>
> Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________Need
a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello all.
I'm new to the EV scene, but someone sent me a link to the El Ninja
electric motorcycle project and I thought it was pretty neat.
http://www.21wheels.com/elninja.html
So I've decided to try and build an electric motorcycle.
I'm not going to build an El Ninja replica, as I think hanging the motor
out in the weather off the swingarm is a bad plan.
I have pretty much decided on a PEM-132 for the motor and an Alltrax
controller with six 12V 55AH Yellow Top batteries.
I might use a Yamaha FJ1200 motorcycle for the chassis, but have not made
up my mind on this yet.
The major question I have not resolved is charging. I'd like to have the
charging circuit onboard so I can plug into 115V anywhere, but I'm having
trouble locating any chargers.
Also, does it make more sense to have six 12V chargers and charge each
battery separately, or to try and charge the whole string at 72V and need
an equalizer on each battery?
I've also started a section on my web site to track my progress, but it's
pretty bare as I'm just getting started. I'm planning on documenting my
conversion online.
http://timf.anansi-web.com/content/category/3/82/68/
I'm currently reading "Build your own electric vehicle" and have joined the
EAA.
Thanks for any input.
--
Timothy W. Foreman + [EMAIL PROTECTED] + http://timf.anansi-web.com
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
'82 R100RS - "Churchy La Femme" | '83 Kawasaki GPz305 - "The Scoot"
'93 K1100RS - "Brunhilda" | '83 Yamaha Seca 750 w/Sidecar!
---------+----------
"Dating's like going on a job interview. You don't know if you'll get
the job, but if you do, you get to see the interviewee naked."
--www.waiterrant.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Peter,
Rebuilding a manual transmission is easy. Pick up a transmission diagram or
down load it which is a exploded diagram. You will need a gasket kit, new
front and rear seals, and a bearing installing tool set.
The rear seal leak may be a worn seal, or the rear bearing is worn which
cause it to drop down on the seal of the rear seal.
The Borg Warner, Munci, Saganaw transmissions of some years, have a straight
cut gear which when the gears contact, it is contacting the total length of
the tooth. This type of gear cut is very noisy even when new.
In a engine car these transmissions are always loaded in one direction, in a
EV the gear thrust is either loading or unloading. These straight type
gears will always make this noise.
The better type of transmissions is a gear set that is bevel where the gears
only mesh at one tangent point. This is less or very little noise with this
type of gear set.
To replace a whole gear set and shaft, it is sometime cheaper to purchase a
new transmission. I get my from jeg's.com. Talk to the transmission teck
which Jeg's will transfer you to, to see what transmission they have bevel
gears in it or a source for a rebuilt kits with bevel gears.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Eckhoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 6:17 PM
Subject: Transmission Question
> May 27, 2007
>
> Transmission question
>
> There are many people on this listserv who know the mechanics of cars
> better than I, and I ask for your advice. It's about the transmission in
> my electric
> truck.
>
> I converted a 1988 Chevy S-10 pickup to electric in 2000. It had
> about 120K miles when I did the conversion, and I have driven it about
> 25K miles since. The transmission is a 5-speed stick, made by
> Borg-Warner, and I am told
> that it was a very common transmission for 1980's GM cars and small
> trucks. This is good.
>
> I did nothing with the transmission when I converted it. It was filled
> with automatic transmission fluid, which a local mechanic said was OK.
> However in a
> couple years it started to leak through the rear seal and the gasket
> between its two
> main housings. To minimize the leak, I drained the AT fluid and
> replaced it with 85-weight gear oil. This worked, reducing but not
> eliminating the
> leak, and I keep an eye on it never to let it get too low, though there is
> a nice hard
> oil spot in my gravel driveway now.
>
> In the last year some things have gotten worse. First and second gears
> are noisy, while third and fourth are quiet. I
> never use fifth. Reverse makes a grinding sound, louder than 1st or 2nd.
> It is sometimes difficult to shift into 1st, 2nd, and reverse. 3rd and
> 4th are always easy.
>
> I am unhappy with the noise it is making. One of the main
> characteristics of an EV is its silence, and the transmission, in 1st and
> 2nd, is as noisy as a
> small gas car.
>
> I will to pull the motor-transmission-clutch disk assembly and inspect
> it. Assuming I find nothing unusual, I am not sure what to do with the
> transmission. So
> here are several questions:
>
> As an electrical engineer who has the usual mechanics tools, but
> nothing special for a transmission, am I competent to rebuild the
> transmission? Should I?
> Should I take the transmission to a transmission shop for an rebuild?
> Is there one in the Chapel Hill-Durham-Raleigh area [of North Carolina]
> that you would recommend? Can you
> speculate on the cost?
>
> Should I buy a rebuilt transmission? A new one? Costs?
> What are the consequences of doing nothing?
>
> Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter,
I recommend shopping around for a used transmission from a junk yard.
Especially with an S10, you would be likely to find a good used transmission.
There is a chance that the input shaft on a used manual transmission will be
bent for several different reasons.
If the input shaft is bent, the clutch will chatter on release and the drive
train will seem out of balance (among other wierd things). A bent input shaft
is hard to spot unless you are looking for it and have had it happen before,
otherwise it will drive you nuts. Just something to be aware of.
So, keep the old transmission around until you're sure the input shaft on the
new transmission is O.K.
I would run the correct gear oil in the transmission. Maybe synthetic.
Hope this helps,
Dana
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Hi Peter,
> While I don't have an s10, I think the experience
> with my Civic will be instructive.
> At 98K, my rig had done about equal amounts of
> stop & go city, and 5th gear 55-70 mph hwy. I was of
> the mindset that "anything Honda lasts forever". I
> had no unusual sounds from the tranny.
> Right after converting it, I had a _horrible_
> sound in 1st gear, and somewhat in second. Tranny
> experts took a listen; I used a mechanic's stethoscope
> but all they could say was "yeah, it _might_ be your
> tranny. In other words, it _might_ also be that your
> machinist screwed up. Or it _might_ be a motor
> bearing or somesuch.
> So I bit the bullet and paid $300 for a Civvy
> tranny with 137K miles on it. Had a local JC (no cost
> for labor) install it. The sound has gone bye-bye,
> and I'm a happy and silent EVer.
> So for the time being, I've learned:
> -my machinist is a genius,
> - Civvy trannies _don't_ last forever.
> - ADC makes a durable motor bearing.
> - the way a DC series-wound motor loads the
> transmission can cause changes in the way a
> transmission sounds, and cause worn bearings or gears
> to become much more apparent.
>
> BTW, it would've been $700 to repair my old
> transmission, and I think that was _without_ labor
> included. Hopefully that answers your question on
> what is the best route to go. My wrecking yard
> assured me the tranny was fine when they pulled it,
> and that they'd give me another if it wasn't.
> All the best to you, as you troubleshoot it.
>
>
> --- Peter Eckhoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > May 27, 2007
> >
> > Transmission question
> >
> > There are many people on this listserv who know the
> > mechanics of cars
> > better than I, and I ask for your advice. It's
> > about the transmission in my electric
> > truck.
> >
> > I converted a 1988 Chevy S-10 pickup to electric in
> > 2000. It had
> > about 120K miles when I did the conversion, and I
> > have driven it about
> > 25K miles since. The transmission is a 5-speed
> > stick, made by Borg-Warner, and I am told
> > that it was a very common transmission for 1980's GM
> > cars and small
> > trucks. This is good.
> >
> > I did nothing with the transmission when I converted
> > it. It was filled
> > with automatic transmission fluid, which a local
> > mechanic said was OK. However in a
> > couple years it started to leak through the rear
> > seal and the gasket between its two
> > main housings. To minimize the leak, I drained the
> > AT fluid and
> > replaced it with 85-weight gear oil. This worked,
> > reducing but not eliminating the
> > leak, and I keep an eye on it never to let it get
> > too low, though there is a nice hard
> > oil spot in my gravel driveway now.
> >
> > In the last year some things have gotten worse.
> > First and second gears are noisy, while third and
> > fourth are quiet. I
> > never use fifth. Reverse makes a grinding sound,
> > louder than 1st or 2nd.
> > It is sometimes difficult to shift into 1st, 2nd,
> > and reverse. 3rd and
> > 4th are always easy.
> >
> > I am unhappy with the noise it is making. One of
> > the main
> > characteristics of an EV is its silence, and the
> > transmission, in 1st and 2nd, is as noisy as a
> > small gas car.
> >
> > I will to pull the motor-transmission-clutch disk
> > assembly and inspect
> > it. Assuming I find nothing unusual, I am not sure
> > what to do with the transmission. So
> > here are several questions:
> >
> > As an electrical engineer who has the usual
> > mechanics tools, but
> > nothing special for a transmission, am I competent
> > to rebuild the transmission? Should I?
> > Should I take the transmission to a transmission
> > shop for an rebuild?
> > Is there one in the Chapel Hill-Durham-Raleigh area
> > [of North Carolina] that you would recommend? Can
> > you
> > speculate on the cost?
> >
> > Should I buy a rebuilt transmission? A new one?
> > Costs?
> > What are the consequences of doing nothing?
> >
> > Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
> >
> >
>
>
> Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> Learn more at:
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
> wheel?
> Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________________
> ____Need a vacation? Get great deals
> to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
> http://travel.yahoo.com/
>
--- End Message ---
