EV Digest 6867
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV count
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: EV count
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Tesla roadster motor philsophy AC vs. DC
by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EVLN(MIT Porsche 914 LiFePO4 EV conversion)
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Weights and Mesasures, WAS Tesla Motor thing.
by "Beth Silverman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) EV Terminology
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Embarrassing Moments , Was: EV's are less maintenance?
by Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Quick VEVCS poll
by "Brandon Kruger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Chevy motor adapters
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Tesla roadster motor philosophy
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Chevy motor adapters
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Weights and Mesasures, WAS Tesla Motor thing.
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) full size truck conversion
by "S. Love" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Doers vs talkers, was Otmar is getting rich?
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: AC/DC thing
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: full size truck conversion
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
with the help of some EEs here) we could hash out a 300V 500A highway
capable controller diy plan for less than 500$ worth of parts? maybe even
much less. how many would be more inclined to put
We??? What we? With your clear lack of people skills you are going to be
working on your own for a long time. Let's see you admit that you know
nothing, and claim that you are trying to learn, and your first step is too
rant and rave about one of the brightest and most respected people in this
community, as if pitching a little hissy fit will influence people to come
out of the dark and step into the light you are so joyfulling spreading.
I've got an idea, why don't you try being polite and having some manners.
Contribute where you can, don't be afraid to ask questions, and show a
little courtesy. This list is a great place to pick up some knowledge for
free. You may even find some on the list who would be interested in working
together on a lower powered, lower cost controller than a Zilla. Even if
you are going it alone, you can start your design and as you come up against
problems or decision points you can throw out specific questions to the list
and you will get great feedback. Just don't come here, throw a huge fit,
launch baseless atacks and expect it to get you anywhere.
Everyone on this list who knows anything about EVs knows what a bargain the
Zilla controller is. It's not the price that is the problem, it is the lead
time. Otmar refuse to make them fast enough :-)
In fact, it wasn't too long ago that there was a big thread about trying to
get Otmar to raise his prices to balance out the supply and demand thingy...
damon
_________________________________________________________________
Play games, earn tickets, get cool prizes. Play nowit's FREE!
http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=CLUB_hotmailtextlink1
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wait a minute... Why does my motorcycle not count. It's freeway capable and
I have over 3000 electric miles on it.
damon
From: "Jay Caplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: EV count
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 19:41:48 -0500
Thanks, I was wondering about how many EVs (3 or 4 wheeled private licensed
vehicles capable of 40 mph+) driven on a daily or near daily basis there
are, not to include NEV, golf cart, LSEV, public trolleys, trains, buses
I only know of 2 in my area of 1MM+ population. So are there only 500 or so
in the US, by extension?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: EV count
> Dear fellow EV enthusiast, this is quite the complex
> question.
> Start with the 1137 EVs listed on the EV discussion
> list:
> -some of these are hybrids.
> -some are not daily drivers; more like a science
> experiment on wheels. Do they count?
> -the Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) in San Francisco is
> one of the most successful EVs around. Yet it is a
> public commuter. What about SFO's "MUNI" electric
> commuter buses?
> -what about golf carts. Technically, they are EVs.
> Yet I wouldn't drive one daily to work. So are you
> including LSEVs (low-speed EVs) and NEVs)
> (neighborhood electric vehicles)?
>
> I wish I could be of more help, but this is just the
> tip of the iceberg...
> I think the more important thing, is "What is the
> _growth_ of EVs in the US and worldwide?"
>
> peace,
>
>
> --- Jay Caplan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Is there an estimate of how many EVs are in daily
> > (or near daily) use in the
> > USA?
> > JLC
> >
> >
>
>
> Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> Learn more at:
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
> Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're
surfing.
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_________________________________________________________________
Dont miss your chance to WIN $10,000 and other great prizes from Microsoft
Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/aub0540003042mrt/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Indeed.
I know hundreds of EVs that are not in the EV album.
In fact, looking at pre-1935 EVs, there are at least 300 known survivors,
including at least 50 Milburns alone. Same story for Detroit, Rauch&Lang,
Baker, Waverly and a lesser number of the others including Studebaker, Pope,
Argo, Babcock, Standard, etc.
There are 3 old-timey EVs in the archives Including 1 Baker, 1 Detroit and 1
Milburn (mine) and then one under construction (my 1911 Hupp-Yeats.
So for old-timey EVs, the ratio is 1% of the known remaining cars are in the
EV album.
On the other hand, that's probably about the percentage that are daily or
occasional drivers...
-Myles
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 5:41 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: EV count
I know several EV's that are not in the EV album,
in fact, I would be surprised if 10% of all EVs
around here have made it into the EV Album, so if
you take the EV Album figures, then keep in mind
that you may be looking at less than 10% of the
EVs that are driving or existing out there in the
world.
Just my observation from seeing EV shows and
looking at EVs in the area, most of which were
not in the EV album (many are still not) even
while they are owned by EAA members, who are
likely to know about the EV album.
The ability of an EV to be a daily driver can
change from day to day, dependent on battery
maintenance, suddenly occurring breakdowns,
availability of knowledge or a facility for repair
and so on.
Just my $0.02
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jay Caplan
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 5:42 PM
To: Bob Bath; ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV count
Thanks, I was wondering about how many EVs (3 or 4 wheeled private licensed
vehicles capable of 40 mph+) driven on a daily or near daily basis there
are, not to include NEV, golf cart, LSEV, public trolleys, trains, buses
I only know of 2 in my area of 1MM+ population. So are there only 500 or so
in the US, by extension?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: EV count
> Dear fellow EV enthusiast, this is quite the complex
> question.
> Start with the 1137 EVs listed on the EV discussion
> list:
> -some of these are hybrids.
> -some are not daily drivers; more like a science
> experiment on wheels. Do they count?
> -the Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) in San Francisco is
> one of the most successful EVs around. Yet it is a
> public commuter. What about SFO's "MUNI" electric
> commuter buses?
> -what about golf carts. Technically, they are EVs.
> Yet I wouldn't drive one daily to work. So are you
> including LSEVs (low-speed EVs) and NEVs)
> (neighborhood electric vehicles)?
>
> I wish I could be of more help, but this is just the
> tip of the iceberg...
> I think the more important thing, is "What is the
> _growth_ of EVs in the US and worldwide?"
>
> peace,
>
>
> --- Jay Caplan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Is there an estimate of how many EVs are in daily
> > (or near daily) use in the
> > USA?
> > JLC
> >
> >
>
>
> Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> Learn more at:
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
> Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're
surfing.
> http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>then why not tell me
Why not go to the IR or Fairchild or ST or Powerex site and find
MOSFET's or IGBT's that would work and then try them?
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok. so I have a question for John and Victor (and anyone who wants)
Can we compare say 2 45kw motors and their controllers. One AC and
the other DC.
What are the hp and torque at what rpms and what is the efficiency of
the controller and motor.
Forget about cost.
The argument that a DC motor is more powerful doesn't make sense to
me if the 2 motors are the same hp/whatever. If it requires lower
gearing that does not mean it is not going to have the same
performance or torque in the end????
Tehben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 6/11/07, Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
They are using Valence batteries and since they where donated they
are probably the U1-12XP because it is the smallest one :P 12v, 40ah.
Specific energy 84 Wh/kg and Energy density 110 Wh/l. I don't really
understand what that means but there it is.
U1-12XP is 2-3C discharge rate, which is not particularly high power
density, some other LFPs, are safely tested to 5-10C.
Common cobalt-based Li-ions are roughly 150Wh/kg, and other LFPs are
around 100Wh/kg.
-kert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The New York Times article about the Solectria Sunrise's Boston-to-NYC
run was published on October 24, 1997, page B3.
************************
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Rice [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 11:29 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Weights and Mesasures, WAS Tesla Motor thing.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 3:28 AM
Subject: Re: Tesla roadster motor philsophy
> As Victor pointed out. Focusing on 1/4 mile times as a vehicles
value
> over
> looks why we have 300 million cars and trucks on the road. Today I
was
> considering a 120 mile EV round trip. I did not want to wait for 3
plus
> hours of
> charging to make it back.
> Hi EVerybody;
Lest we forget the Solectria Sunrise run from Boston to NYC back in
the
90's nonstop, except for a coffee/piss break! I was there and witnessed
and
chased them in my Diseasel Jetta! That was a 230 plus mile run!But it
was
with the Nimh batteries, back in the heady Stan Ovshinsky daze BEFORE
General Murders got hold of the patent. Upon Arrival they said they had
some
power left? Maybe they coulda gone most of the way to Philly? James
Worden,
Solectria CEO at th wheel, and a magazine rep, to make sure they didn't
cheat and plugitin along the way.
The New York Times gave them a nice writup, wish I had a date to be
able
to send ya there. Google?Gees! Those were good Times, pun intended, as
we
thought the BATTERY we all were fantisising about was almost here. The
little, sleek,Sunrise wafted along I-84, a joy to watch, probably using
half
the power I was using in the Jetta, to glide along. This is why I'm
trying
to be involved in the Sunrise Reserection that Lee Hart is working on.
Bought the motor and Zilla for starters.By NOT building a Led Sled,
keeping
the tare weight of the car down, maybe a Zombie like 2200lbs, with
crappy
golf cart badd-eries. Sigh! Maybe borrow Bill's Spare A123 pack someday
to
go for for Sunrises's 230 mile run. Would like to bust that<g>! Don't
think
James W. would be too upset??With a 200 lb battery pack, hell! You could
go
forEVer, reletavely speaking. I mean NORMAL driving, not stoplight
derbies,
Yeah! They are fun, but not for EVerybody?
Some of us just want to get over the road, with the traffic, not
holding
anybody up, and not thinking" Am I gunna make it" If I run a different
errand today.Ya know who you are, here, although it is fun, tempting, to
light the tires up now an; again!
> Sure you can load in enough inexpensive lead batteries to do this
with a
> DC
> drive. How much fun would that non performance vehicle be to drive
> everyday?
> The many lead acid packs one would have to keep buying and installing
> would
> not be what I call an added bonus.
But IF ya build the car to work arouind the badd-erie's weaknesses,
the
better points of Led Acid is that they are here, now, relatively cheap.
Hah!
Priced out a battery pak, lately??!!But compared to the exhotics, looks
good!But with a well designed and done car a 16k bat. pak may not be TOO
unreasonable, if you can pass the car on to yur grandkids, years later?
The
kid MAY want to upgrade the CAR, but keep that stalwart battery pack?
I will say it again, a conversion is an excersize in masochism!
Godamn
doner car is too heavey, right out of the chute! EVen Zombie could be
lighter in carbon fiber, a hellova lot more aero, on and on. But Zoombie
as
cars go, is SUPER light!! 1500 lbs as a gas car born, new off the boat
from
the land of the Rising Sun. 4-500lbs lighter than a VW Beatle!
>
> The TZero or Tesla with an AC drive propose is not just an ET slip.
Here
> is
> a link to a 245 mile trip with a claim of having at least another 40
> miles
> left. _http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero/SEMAtrip2003.htm_
> (http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero/SEMAtrip2003.htm) When building a
> vehicle that is enjoyable
> to drive, regen for increase distance and reliability are an
important
> requirements. AC drives are already better values if you use these as
> your
> performance standards.
> Perhaps a head to head distance run with Sunrise?BTW Sunrise was
running
> Solectria's AC system, PROBABLY the setup built for the more mundane
> Forces? It's too bad Solectria isn't in the hi tech running, nowadaze.
> Sigh! Sunrise 2, 3 and on would be prety impressive, like EV-2, 3 or 4
> COULD have been.
OK bumping down from Fantesy Land and what SHOULD have been.
Seeya
Bob...............what's a few hundred tons among friends? Put all
the
cars on my train! Con Rail Freight train daze<g>!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just like they changed "global warming" to "climate change" to better
address and to increase the perceived importance of the problem, I
think we might do the same for "EV Conversion". They also use the
"Death Tax" instead of the "Estate Tax" make it sound bad.
May I propose the following changes:
EV Conversion -> Auto Electrification
Converting a car to electric -> Electrifying a car
Being converted to electric -> Being electrified
I don't know if this is a good idea. I just think that a "conversion"
hardly express the "electrifying" experience.
--
Edward Ang
AIR Lab Corp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
did you buy a controller from him?
Bill Dube skrev:
Otmar tells me anything I ask him, but I'm not trying to rip off his
design and sell it as my own. :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Had my first embarrassing moment - Drove all over town
this weekend, showing off the car, breaking in the
battery pack, after the local television station did a
story on it. Thought, I'll go to the bank, and cash a
check, no big deal.
When I went to leave the drive through, which every
teller drop, had about 5 cars deep in line, the EV
wouldn't budge. Had to troubleshoot the EV in the
middle of several onlookers, finding my relay, I was
using to switch on the controller had fried it's coil.
Jumpered across it, and went home to recover from the
embarrassment. Note: Never use a ford starter relay,
as a simple aux relay, seems they don't like to be
energized for extended periods - Another lesson
learned.
Has anyone else had such experiences like Bruce and I?
It might help me recover, verses having to go for
therapy.....
--- Richard Acuti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Good story Bruce. At least your car had the decency
> to die -away- from all
> the people you were bragging to, instead of dying
> right in front of them.
>
> Rich
>
> An EV story:
>
> Many moons ago when I was driving my EV on its
> second Curtis,
> I decided to show off my EV by driving it to a
> company Xmas
> dinner. Of course I was in EVangel mode so I was
> yakking it up
> and even got the restaurant manager to give me
> permission to
> plug in while I was there (I did not need it, I was
> showing it
> could be done).
>
> OK, so the dinner was very nice and I was successful
> in wooing
> everyone into "Bruce's EV is pretty Cool". I waved
> my good-byes
> as I left the restaurant driveway onto the city
> street.
>
> I had a smooth ride as I drove though the Wintry
> foggy cold
> night. I jockeyed just fine on the Hwy fighting my
> way through
> traffic with everyone else.
>
> I took a Hwy exit to stop off at the grocery store
> before
> heading home. Everything was fine and great as I
> made my right
> turn around the corner and into the grocery store's
> parking
> lot.
>
> I put the clutch in and coasted into an empty
> parking spot as
> I usually do. When I came to a stop a POP! sound
> with a POOF!
> of smoke as a large flume came out from the gap
> between the hood
> and the left side of the body.
>
> I quickly pulled the red KILL knob, that opened the
> power circuit.
> Smoke was still coming from under the hood, so I
> popped the hood
> to open it. I found small flames coming out of the
> Curtis
> controller. I put the flames out, but knew my EV was
> now toast.
>
> The grocery's shopping-cart boy now ended his
> 'deer-frozen-in-
> the-headlights' act and again started moving his
> carts away.
> His head was shaking like 'what a piece of junk'.
>
> Needless to say, my night did not end as great as
> the dinner
> went. Good thing I always carry an insurance tow
> card.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good afternoon everyone,
Before I get too into developing this charging station database,
I thought I'd take a survey to see how many people would actually
volunteer their charger/120/240 outlet to an EV driver in the area.
Please take a second to complete this poll.
http://bmk789.dyndns.org/ev/?p=16
Thank you,
Brandon Kruger
http://bmk789.dyndns.org/ev/
http://cafepress.com/altfuel
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
According to GM, "all cranks which use a one-piece seal require a
counterweighted flywheel for proper engine balance".
http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/performance_parts/store/catalog/Category.jhtmlCATID=913.html#QRC
It sounds to me like that means any flywheel designed for that flange will
be off balance, unless it's something exotic and expensive. There may be an
exception in the 4 cylinder S10 flywheels, I don't know.
The GM lightweight high performance flywheel for the 3.5" flange is $192.15
here:
http://paceperformance.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=22889
Of course there is a version of this flywheel for the 3" bolt pattern, but
it is not a balanced flywheel, see above and the paragraph at the bottom of:
http://www.gmperformancepartssuperstore.com/part_pictures/upload/1.pdf
A Lakewood is big, significantly more expensive than the above flywheel, and
adds a bunch of additional weight, being thick steel plate instead of
aluminum. You shouldn't need it if you use the above flywheel and don't
mess with the structural integrity of it.
Why use a $350 marine coupler when you can use one of these for under $50?:
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/p/1784,38_andquot;Cheaterandquot;-Button.html
Of course, it's probably only made for the larger crank pattern, since a
newer motor running one of these would be way out of balance.
To run an automatic without a converter, you can use these:
http://www.enginebalancers.com/Products/CircleTrack/circle_track_pump_drives.asp
But the good adjustable ones that bolt up without a flywheel only bolt up to
the larger flange. The ones that are used for the smaller pattern require
the use of a flywheel, for balance no doubt.
You have all these options as a bolt in if you run the Chevy 3.5" flange on
your motor.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 11:05 AM
Subject: RE: Chevy motor adapters
I can tell you for a fact that the new bolt pattern 1 piece rear main
seal 350 flywheel IS neutral balanced. The ONLY crank that needs
external balancing is the 400. If you are that worried that a flywheel
will come apart then use a scatter shield. They are specifically
designed to take the impact. MUCH cheaper than a 600 dollar flywheel
that might still come apart. If you are worried about interchangability
then stock parts are MUCH easier to adapt than one off racing pieces.
Plus when you want to service it or something breaks you can get it at
your local auto parts store. I just did some parts checking:
Clutch and Flywheel - $194 (autozone)
Lakewood bellhousing (scattershield - fits just about any 4 speed
tranny) - $329
As for an adapter hub for clutchless wouldn't it be easier just to use a
Marine engine coupler? They bolt to the flywheel flange of a 1 piece
rear main seal Chevy and have the splines for a 10 spline input shaft
transmission (muncie, saginaw, NV3500)?
There is one on ebay right now: 140074793314 $354
These could bolt right to flange of the taperlock in place of the
flywheel. They are rubber insulated and work awesome.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Hewes
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 11:32
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Chevy motor adapters
Two reasons.
First, if you use a stock flywheel, you are using a lot of battery juice
to spin up the rotating mass of that heavy flywheel, reducing your range
somewhat. A heavy flywheel is totally unnecessary with a motor that
pulls from zero RPM. You can try to cut a lot of metal off a stock
flywheel to lighten it, and hope it isn't structurally compromised
enough to fragment and cut your feet off or injure a bystander, or you
can spend a little money (probably not much more than the machine work
bill if you go with a very common Chevy part), and have a safe solution.
Keep in mind there are failure modes where the motor can overrev. With
an ICE, the rods break and limit RPM before the clutch explodes and
mames someone. If that happens, an electric motor may spin faster
before it goes. I'd like to know that the only thing that will go is the
motor.
Second reason to standardize on a pattern that is very common to the
race world is that all manner of lightweight clutches and direct drive
hubs for running clutchless/converterless are off the shelf and
interchangable. My intent is to be able to interchangably bolt in drive
hubs for converterless auto or clutchless manual transmissions and keep
rotating mass to a minimum.
It just so happens that the same drive hub should work famously in S10's
wanting an off the shelf, safe, lightweight, balanced flywheel.
Oh, and if I could use a flywheel that bolts to an old 350 Chevy, we'd
already have the part we're trying to get made. A 350 Chevy flywheel
for the newer bolt pattern is apparently not neutral balance unless it's
an expensive race piece. It might be possible to use something like a 4
cylinder S10 peice, but then you lose the adaptability.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 9:54 AM
Subject: RE: Chevy motor adapters
Why would you want a racing flywheel? Just get a stock flywheel for a 1
piece rear main seal chevy. You can get a flywheel and clutch kit from
autozone for $150 easy. The only reason you would need a racing
flywheel is if you needed to pass a tech inspection for RACING. Those
flywheels are guaranteed not to fly apart at 8,000 or 9,000 rpm. For
the RPM the electric motor is turning (5500 rpm max) a stock flywheel is
perfectly fine. You can shave off the ring gear to cut down on the
weight if you want. Just pick a flywheel combo that bolts to a 350
chevy. That is neutral balanced. The standard clutch will be a 10
spline for chevy transmissions or 26 spline for a T56.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter,
I agree with you. A properly designed sepex
motor/control will be able to get you the same torque
as the series motor. I use a Sevcon control and D&D
SepEx at 48 volts. Current limit is 400 amps. Normal
field current is about 5 amps. Max field is 35 amps.
So I am pretty sure I will get enough field at current
limit to equal what a series motor/control would do.
This all is programmable in what they call the field
map.
Now, if you have a drag race set up with current limit
at 1000 (or 2000) amps, then you'd have to have a
sepex field with a lower resistance so you could
overexcite it even further. This is possible, but
your field control bridge would have to be beefier.
With the sepex motor you do lose the series field
inductance in the armature circuit. So the armature
controller has to deal with that.
And I do not agree with Lee when he says that
induction motors make poor generators. When you have
a induction motor and control for a vehicle, you will
need torque control. I have found this means using
closed loop flux vector control. This type of control
decouples the direct and quadrature current
components, similar to separately exciting the field.
This gives great generator performance from the
induction motor. I routinely see higher regeneration
power than motor power in our hybrids. If fact, my
opinion is that the system is better at generating
than motoring because it can maintain higher motor
voltage.
Jeff
--- Peter Gabrielsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Question, why is it that a sepex motor has less
> starting torque than a
> series wound motor? It seems to me that torque is a
> function of your
> field strength and the field strength is a function
> of the number of
> amp turns you have. So whether you run 10 amps
> through 100 turns or
> 100amps through 10 turns the torque should be the
> same?
>
>
>
> On 6/10/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> <snip>
>
> > Every motor is also a generator, AC or DC. But the
> designer can choose
> > the design to optimize it for motoring or
> generating. Wound field motors
> > (AC wound rotor or DC shunt or sepex) make
> excellent generators, but
> > mediocre traction motors (starting torque is low).
> PM motors (AC or DC)
> > are good generators and motors (high peak
> efficiency, but harder to
> > control and lower part-load efficiency). Motors
> with indirect field
> > control (series DC, induction AC) are excellent
> traction motors, but
> > poor generators due to the difficulty of control.
>
> <snip>
>
> > --
> > Do not confuse what is "easy" with what is
> "right".
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> www.electric-lemon.com
>
>
___________________________________________________________________________________
You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck
in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cool! The website is wrong for the one piece seal cranks. The only one
that needs external balance is a 400. Believe me, I have 2. I have a
350 in my truck, 1 piece seal, Neutral balance. I have a 383 (400
crank, 350 block) external balance.
That is a great price for the flywheel. If you are worried about a
flywheel separating then use the scattershield. I know for stock use
below 5500 rpm, neither a scattershield nor a racing flywheel is needed.
That cheater coupler is awesome! I didn't know that existed. That
would be MUCH easier. Question - does it bolt to a flywheel or just to
the crank? I assume flywheel since it is made for a ICE car. I guess
you could just bolt it to the taperlock and eliminate the flywheel
altogether.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Hewes
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 13:53
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Chevy motor adapters
According to GM, "all cranks which use a one-piece seal require a
counterweighted flywheel for proper engine balance".
http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/performance_parts/store/catalog/Category.jh
tmlCATID=913.html#QRC
It sounds to me like that means any flywheel designed for that flange
will be off balance, unless it's something exotic and expensive. There
may be an exception in the 4 cylinder S10 flywheels, I don't know.
The GM lightweight high performance flywheel for the 3.5" flange is
$192.15
here:
http://paceperformance.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=22889
Of course there is a version of this flywheel for the 3" bolt pattern,
but it is not a balanced flywheel, see above and the paragraph at the
bottom of:
http://www.gmperformancepartssuperstore.com/part_pictures/upload/1.pdf
A Lakewood is big, significantly more expensive than the above flywheel,
and adds a bunch of additional weight, being thick steel plate instead
of aluminum. You shouldn't need it if you use the above flywheel and
don't mess with the structural integrity of it.
Why use a $350 marine coupler when you can use one of these for under
$50?:
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/p/1784,38_andquot;Cheaterandquot;-Button.h
tml
Of course, it's probably only made for the larger crank pattern, since a
newer motor running one of these would be way out of balance.
To run an automatic without a converter, you can use these:
http://www.enginebalancers.com/Products/CircleTrack/circle_track_pump_dr
ives.asp
But the good adjustable ones that bolt up without a flywheel only bolt
up to the larger flange. The ones that are used for the smaller pattern
require the use of a flywheel, for balance no doubt.
You have all these options as a bolt in if you run the Chevy 3.5" flange
on your motor.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 11:05 AM
Subject: RE: Chevy motor adapters
I can tell you for a fact that the new bolt pattern 1 piece rear main
seal 350 flywheel IS neutral balanced. The ONLY crank that needs
external balancing is the 400. If you are that worried that a flywheel
will come apart then use a scatter shield. They are specifically
designed to take the impact. MUCH cheaper than a 600 dollar flywheel
that might still come apart. If you are worried about interchangability
then stock parts are MUCH easier to adapt than one off racing pieces.
Plus when you want to service it or something breaks you can get it at
your local auto parts store. I just did some parts checking:
Clutch and Flywheel - $194 (autozone)
Lakewood bellhousing (scattershield - fits just about any 4 speed
tranny) - $329
As for an adapter hub for clutchless wouldn't it be easier just to use a
Marine engine coupler? They bolt to the flywheel flange of a 1 piece
rear main seal Chevy and have the splines for a 10 spline input shaft
transmission (muncie, saginaw, NV3500)?
There is one on ebay right now: 140074793314 $354
These could bolt right to flange of the taperlock in place of the
flywheel. They are rubber insulated and work awesome.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Hewes
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 11:32
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Chevy motor adapters
Two reasons.
First, if you use a stock flywheel, you are using a lot of battery juice
to spin up the rotating mass of that heavy flywheel, reducing your range
somewhat. A heavy flywheel is totally unnecessary with a motor that
pulls from zero RPM. You can try to cut a lot of metal off a stock
flywheel to lighten it, and hope it isn't structurally compromised
enough to fragment and cut your feet off or injure a bystander, or you
can spend a little money (probably not much more than the machine work
bill if you go with a very common Chevy part), and have a safe solution.
Keep in mind there are failure modes where the motor can overrev. With
an ICE, the rods break and limit RPM before the clutch explodes and
mames someone. If that happens, an electric motor may spin faster
before it goes. I'd like to know that the only thing that will go is the
motor.
Second reason to standardize on a pattern that is very common to the
race world is that all manner of lightweight clutches and direct drive
hubs for running clutchless/converterless are off the shelf and
interchangable. My intent is to be able to interchangably bolt in drive
hubs for converterless auto or clutchless manual transmissions and keep
rotating mass to a minimum.
It just so happens that the same drive hub should work famously in S10's
wanting an off the shelf, safe, lightweight, balanced flywheel.
Oh, and if I could use a flywheel that bolts to an old 350 Chevy, we'd
already have the part we're trying to get made. A 350 Chevy flywheel
for the newer bolt pattern is apparently not neutral balance unless it's
an expensive race piece. It might be possible to use something like a 4
cylinder S10 peice, but then you lose the adaptability.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 9:54 AM
Subject: RE: Chevy motor adapters
Why would you want a racing flywheel? Just get a stock flywheel for a 1
piece rear main seal chevy. You can get a flywheel and clutch kit from
autozone for $150 easy. The only reason you would need a racing
flywheel is if you needed to pass a tech inspection for RACING. Those
flywheels are guaranteed not to fly apart at 8,000 or 9,000 rpm. For
the RPM the electric motor is turning (5500 rpm max) a stock flywheel is
perfectly fine. You can shave off the ring gear to cut down on the
weight if you want. Just pick a flywheel combo that bolts to a 350
chevy. That is neutral balanced. The standard clutch will be a 10
spline for chevy transmissions or 26 spline for a T56.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Lest we forget the Solectria Sunrise run from Boston to NYC back in the
>90's nonstop, except for a coffee/piss break! I was there and witnessed
and
>chased them in my Diseasel Jetta! That was a 230 plus mile run!But it was
...
> Perhaps a head to head distance run with Sunrise?BTW Sunrise was running
> Solectria's AC system, PROBABLY the setup built for the more mundane
One of their brushless DC motors, probably. 94-95% efficiency, motor plus
inverter package. Inverter based on a substantial number of IR MOSFET
modules. I've repaired a few of those inverters. Insufficient capacitor
ripple current rating for longevity, though, and sloppy bus to capacitor
wiring, and sloppier gate drive wiring. Pretty efficient, though.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dustin Stern wrote:
Too me, what you are suggesting we do is kind of like when Hitler suggested everyone but blue eyed blonde's should killed.
I want to make an open source controller design so we can get rid of the
polution that kills the world and to that end I'm curious about how the
zilla is built and that makes me hitler?
further, Otmar reversed engineered a curtis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
anyone ever actually complete the conversion on a full size truck?
I know there were a couple in the making, but have never seen one actually
completed.
what were the results?
Any tips or pointers to convert a fullsize dodge 2500 4X4?
I know, I know, the 4X4 is not the best for a conversion, but I regularly
drive through the dirt on jobsites, and the clearace (and 4X4) is really
handy.
I know it will carry the battery weight without a problem, when I got the
truck, the only thing the bed was used for is signage, they are big sheets
of plastic, and sometimes wood, they are big, but they are not heavy.
I was thinking of losing the engine, and transmission, and bolting the
electric motor directly to the transfer case..
the motorbay and under the bed will all be reserved for batteries.
3 or maybe 4 banks 144v each? or more? is this plausable? when one is low,
switch to the other and then the other? I am concerned about the additional
weight of the batteries actually subtracting from the distance achieveable.
I know each bank will end up weighing like 800 pounds, which is not much in
the grand scheme of things, but 800X3=2,400 pounds. and 800X4=3,200 pounds.
and that is alot.. (the current motor and transmission weigh about 1,600
and also subtracting the cooling systems, and exhaust, and fuel tank,
pumps, etc, I think I can get it to a little over breakeven, but I know
lighter is better for an EV)
any help is appreciated
thank
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm familiar with all those but that doesn't answer my question. It's a
non sequitur.
Dale Ulan wrote:
then why not tell me
Why not go to the IR or Fairchild or ST or Powerex site and find
MOSFET's or IGBT's that would work and then try them?
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
Hello to All,
Sometimes it might be hard to tell that Victor and I are friends...but
we are :-)
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
A 350 kW AC drive of course will become better for John
if he receives it as a gift or 100% sponsored...
Let's leave it at that and kill the thread shall we?
No, let's not leave it as this! Victor, perhaps unintentionally, with
the above you have just insinuated that I only do things if parts are
given to me free. This is misinformation, and misinformation gone
unchallenged, becomes fact. Time for a correction.
Let's review:
John, misunderstanding! I never claimed that you only do things if
parts are free for you. You won't find such a claim in my email.
Of course you pay for things, and I know how much EV hardware cost.
All I said (having you and WZ as example, but it applies to anyone)
decision what is best for an individual, AC or DC in this case,
depends heavily on its cost. DC is apparently is "better" for most
because that's what most use. But if anyone gets AC drive for free,
AC option suddenly will become better for that individual in this
circumstance. Or he wins a lottery. Or find a nice AC drive fallen
off the truck and laying on a freeway... That's all I'm saying.
My apology if you misunderstood the message - it really had nothing
to do with you (or anyone in particular) personally.
In essence the message was the definition of "better" is largely
cost driven.
With great respect John,
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think you would have to keep the transmission. Even with a massive
13" motor you would have trouble with that heavy of a vehicle in direct
drive. Also I would consider converting it to 2WD. With that many
batteries traction will not be a problem. Having 3 banks would be cool,
but where in the heck would you put them all? Maybe 2 banks in the
rear, each stradling the driveshaft under the bed and one bank in the
engine compartment? Maybe run Optima Blue Tops? That is a huge battery
budget considering a blue top costs $200 each. That is $2400 (200 x 12)
per bank!
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of S. Love
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 15:19
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: full size truck conversion
anyone ever actually complete the conversion on a full size truck?
I know there were a couple in the making, but have never seen one
actually completed.
what were the results?
Any tips or pointers to convert a fullsize dodge 2500 4X4?
I know, I know, the 4X4 is not the best for a conversion, but I
regularly drive through the dirt on jobsites, and the clearace (and 4X4)
is really handy.
I know it will carry the battery weight without a problem, when I got
the truck, the only thing the bed was used for is signage, they are big
sheets of plastic, and sometimes wood, they are big, but they are not
heavy.
I was thinking of losing the engine, and transmission, and bolting the
electric motor directly to the transfer case..
the motorbay and under the bed will all be reserved for batteries.
3 or maybe 4 banks 144v each? or more? is this plausable? when one is
low, switch to the other and then the other? I am concerned about the
additional weight of the batteries actually subtracting from the
distance achieveable.
I know each bank will end up weighing like 800 pounds, which is not much
in the grand scheme of things, but 800X3=2,400 pounds. and 800X4=3,200
pounds.
and that is alot.. (the current motor and transmission weigh about 1,600
and also subtracting the cooling systems, and exhaust, and fuel tank,
pumps, etc, I think I can get it to a little over breakeven, but I know
lighter is better for an EV)
any help is appreciated
thank
--- End Message ---
