EV Digest 6877
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Check out Zilla Blog.Comments
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RF/magnetic in BEV?
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Question about DMV
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Embarrassing Moments , Was: EV's are less maintenance?
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Question about DMV
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Question about DMV
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: Check out Zilla Blog.Comments
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Check out Zilla Blog.Comments
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Question about DMV
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) AC Drive not Low-Performance (was: Tesla roadster motor
philosophy)
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Grassroots charging infrastructure
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Tesla roadster motor philsophy
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Chevy motor adapters
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Safety of inverter/controller or whole system?
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Grass Roots charging infrastructure Was: Quick VEVCS poll
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) thinking about cost effective EV's
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Grassroots charging infrastructure
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Tesla roadster motor philsophy
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Question about DMV
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Quick VEVCS poll
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Grassroots charging infrastructure
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 12:31 PM
Subject: Check out Zilla Blog.
http://www.cafeelectric.com/blog/?p=8 I couldn't believe the comments
there. Lawrence Rhodes
Hi Lawrence an' all;
I, too, am appalled, especially with this "Dan," Damn, guy! I apologize
to you, Otmar, for this comment stuff, that it gets in public, and you have
to defend yourself! As part of The EV community for a hellova lot more years
than Dan F.Us that have been here for years know the Zilla is the Rolex, the
Rolls Royce, the Concorde, or TGV (357MPH French Train) of controllers. I
wouldn't care if you could make them for 49 cents a copy. It is the
ENGINEERING you put into them that we are getting at a bargain price. And if
somebody else can do better as you say, you would step aside. I don't see
any flooding of the EV marketplace with cheaper, better ones?! Ot, you don't
deserve all the shit going on of late. I just wanted ya to know I'm thinking
of you!
Back into controller Lerk mode.WAS gunna post this in Ot's blog, but
want it more public.
Bob, hoping the thread will fade away?
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.14/845 - Release Date: 6/12/2007
6:39 AM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
*This is NOT intended to be a continuation of the safety-of-magnetic-fields
discussion.*
At least not for carbon-based life-form safety....
Has anyone tested the level of RF and/or magnetic fields in their EV? I am wondering about damage to non-shielded
computers like consumer laptops and their hard drives and such. Also radio interference is up for question, and anything
else? Trivial, some, a lot? Is a hybrid like a Prius already a good test bed for this question do you think?
thanks
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Daisley wrote:
Be very careful about what you call your vehicle, especially in California.
About two years ago, the DMV and tax authorities did a sting on custom car
builders who, for example, took a '55 Chev and extensively modified it,
sometimes producing a car worth $100K+ and sold and registered it as a '55
Chev, thereby avoiding a hefty tax. The builders paid huge fines for their
slight oversight.
Can you explain how this worked? If they registered it as a '55 Chevy,
and it really *is* a '55 Chevy, what law is being broken? In every state
I've lived in, vehicle registration price has nothing to do with the
true value of the vehicle; they only use its "book" price. They don't
care if I put $10,000 worth of EV parts into a car with a book value of
$100 -- I still pay registration based on its book value.
Insurance is another matter; if you expect to be reimbursed for what the
vehicle is really worth, then you need to insure it for that value.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "mike young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: Embarrassing Moments , Was: EV's are less maintenance?
yeah bob me and my wife and kids pushing a solectria ev up the hill to the
house because i depleted a stinker of a pack mike young
Ya missed the EAA New England chapter meeting at my place when we were
doing EV "Rides" with controllerless Sentras and Jetta! Using Jumper cables;
ZORCH! Weeeeee .........OK use the clutch and gears!Of course not going over
30 volts!Jumper cable meltdown at 15-20MPH speeds! They just don't make
jumper cables like they used to!Now, honestly guyz? Don't ya do your maiden
voyages this way, to see the damn car will actually MOVE, when ya get the
motor installed, and to check out the clutch an' shift linkage, too.
A few jumper cable meltdowns we had to push the poor car up my driveway!
Seeya
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: Embarrassing Moments , Was: EV's are less maintenance?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Barkley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 8:46 AM
Subject: Embarrassing Moments , Was: EV's are less maintenance?
Had my first embarrassing moment - Drove all over town
this weekend, showing off the car, breaking in the
battery pack, after the local television station did a
story on it. Thought, I'll go to the bank, and cash a
check, no big deal.
When I went to leave the drive through, which every
teller drop, had about 5 cars deep in line, the EV
wouldn't budge. Had to troubleshoot the EV in the
middle of several onlookers, finding my relay, I was
using to switch on the controller had fried it's coil.
Jumpered across it, and went home to recover from the
embarrassment. Note: Never use a ford starter relay,
as a simple aux relay, seems they don't like to be
energized for extended periods - Another lesson
learned.
Has anyone else had such experiences like Bruce and I?
It might help me recover, verses having to go for
therapy.....
Hi Mike;
Good show! And for finding/fixing yur issue, dignity intact. They DO
make solenoid type relays that LOOK like Ford ones, but made for golf
carts, and won't burn up on you, being used continuously.
My early contacter controller did the disapearing act thing at a light,
years ago! Light turned, one of those 3 second jobs where people have to
MOVE to make it or wait a few weeks for the next one. Of course the
Rabbit wouldn't go! Jumped out, waved the irate folks by me to make the 3
seconder light, then had to PUSH the godamn car OVER the curb and onto
the sidewalk to clear the lane. Do ya think anybody would help me? Hah!
Titanic's coming in Thursday! DID get in the clear and found my issue:
Wire to run the contacter sequence to GO was loose to the ignition(hot)
wire. Tightened that and went on my way!At least with a contacter
controller, YOU built YOU can fix it! Not so when a squalid state one
shits out! I REALLY should wire in a maybe 2 step contacter thing to be
able to limp home WITHOUT a tow. But as Rich sez" Keep yur dues up with
the Auto Club!!"
Seeya
Bob
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database:
269.8.14/845 - Release Date: 6/12/2007 6:39 AM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In every state
> I've lived in, vehicle registration price has
> nothing to do with the
> true value of the vehicle;
I am in the process of registering a ground up built
EV in CA and the DMV wants to know the (retail) cost
of every part (If you get it from a junk yard for $10
and its retail value is $200 you are supposed to use
the $200 )and labor at reg shop rates even though I am
doing the work myself. It is for tax purposes...of
coarse you dont have to show every reciept nor tell
them all the hours but it has to be reasonable. I
can't say I bought the parts for $100 and built the
car in 10 hrs.
they only use its "book"
> price.
There is no book value on a purpose built.
On my 1970 volkswagon bug i just told them it is a vw
bug...said nothing about its electric drive train.
they charge me $32 a year
It will get more complex as time goes on but
eventually we will probably have to pay an extra tax
on our electrics to cover the road maintence tax that
is in gas
They don't
> care if I put $10,000 worth of EV parts into a car
> with a book value of
> $100 -- I still pay registration based on its book
> value.
>
> Insurance is another matter; if you expect to be
> reimbursed for what the
> vehicle is really worth, then you need to insure it
> for that value.
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What state are you in? Virginia has nothing for EV's or Hybrids. You can
drive in the HOV lane until next month, then you have to have more than
one person. That is about all they offer, not alternative fuel friendly
state.
Was you GVW info specific to your state?
Corbett
>
> Thank you! This site provided state specific info no one else seemed
> to be able to provide. Of particular importance to me is info
> about a specific GVW I must meet for an EV to be legal. This
> is a necessary factor as I struggle with the battery issue.
>
> I recommend anyone planning a conversion do a specific seach
> for their state before starting to spend the BIG buck$.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Bob,
When I received my Transformer I from Robert Aronson, it had a Cable Form
controller he contracted out to CableForm to have made for this car back in
1975.
He told me, that just the 2 inch thick heat sinks that press pack the hockey
puck SCR's cost him $2000.00 each to be machine, which there was two of them
in this controller. The 1000 amp SCR's them self cost about $600.00 each.
I ran this controller for 28 years which the I can not stand the chopper
noise any longer. Sounded like a UFO coming in for a landing. I then
contacted Otmar for a Zilla 1K and I was prepare to spend $6000.00+ for this
controller. It was only $3500.00 for the Zilla 1K.
The spare parts kit for the CableForm controller cost me over $3500.00 back
in the 80's. I am going to buy more Zilla's even if they cost more.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: Check out Zilla Blog.Comments
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 12:31 PM
> Subject: Check out Zilla Blog.
>
>
> > http://www.cafeelectric.com/blog/?p=8 I couldn't believe the comments
> > there. Lawrence Rhodes
> > Hi Lawrence an' all;
>
> I, too, am appalled, especially with this "Dan," Damn, guy! I apologize
> to you, Otmar, for this comment stuff, that it gets in public, and you
> have
> to defend yourself! As part of The EV community for a hellova lot more
> years
> than Dan F.Us that have been here for years know the Zilla is the Rolex,
> the
> Rolls Royce, the Concorde, or TGV (357MPH French Train) of controllers. I
> wouldn't care if you could make them for 49 cents a copy. It is the
> ENGINEERING you put into them that we are getting at a bargain price. And
> if
> somebody else can do better as you say, you would step aside. I don't see
> any flooding of the EV marketplace with cheaper, better ones?! Ot, you
> don't
> deserve all the shit going on of late. I just wanted ya to know I'm
> thinking
> of you!
>
> Back into controller Lerk mode.WAS gunna post this in Ot's blog, but
> want it more public.
>
> Bob, hoping the thread will fade away?
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.14/845 - Release Date:
> > 6/12/2007
> > 6:39 AM
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just posted in Ot's blog. Ot's design work is the result of his effort.
In the U.S., we consider that his property. He made an investment for which
he deserves a return. In this country we consider that a good thing, as it
encourages development which keeps our economy, and therefore our country
strong. This is exactly what will drive EV development. If someone can't
fathom that, they really ought to be living in a socialist country. This
country is strong because people work like dogs to better their situation,
and employ a few others while they are at it. It works pretty well. Nobody
should be embarassed or ashamed to protect their intellectual property or
make a fair profit. It's why our standard of living is better than in
socialist countries, and we are often at the leading edge of technology.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: Check out Zilla Blog.Comments
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 12:31 PM
Subject: Check out Zilla Blog.
http://www.cafeelectric.com/blog/?p=8 I couldn't believe the comments
there. Lawrence Rhodes
Hi Lawrence an' all;
I, too, am appalled, especially with this "Dan," Damn, guy! I apologize
to you, Otmar, for this comment stuff, that it gets in public, and you
have to defend yourself! As part of The EV community for a hellova lot
more years than Dan F.Us that have been here for years know the Zilla is
the Rolex, the Rolls Royce, the Concorde, or TGV (357MPH French Train) of
controllers. I wouldn't care if you could make them for 49 cents a copy.
It is the ENGINEERING you put into them that we are getting at a bargain
price. And if somebody else can do better as you say, you would step
aside. I don't see any flooding of the EV marketplace with cheaper, better
ones?! Ot, you don't deserve all the shit going on of late. I just wanted
ya to know I'm thinking of you!
Back into controller Lerk mode.WAS gunna post this in Ot's blog, but
want it more public.
Bob, hoping the thread will fade away?
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.14/845 - Release Date: 6/12/2007
6:39 AM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you are taxed on the value of the car (a personal property tax) at time
of registration, it could be tax evasion.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: Question about DMV
Roger Daisley wrote:
Be very careful about what you call your vehicle, especially in
California.
About two years ago, the DMV and tax authorities did a sting on custom
car
builders who, for example, took a '55 Chev and extensively modified it,
sometimes producing a car worth $100K+ and sold and registered it as a
'55
Chev, thereby avoiding a hefty tax. The builders paid huge fines for
their
slight oversight.
Can you explain how this worked? If they registered it as a '55 Chevy, and
it really *is* a '55 Chevy, what law is being broken? In every state I've
lived in, vehicle registration price has nothing to do with the true value
of the vehicle; they only use its "book" price. They don't care if I put
$10,000 worth of EV parts into a car with a book value of $100 -- I still
pay registration based on its book value.
Insurance is another matter; if you expect to be reimbursed for what the
vehicle is really worth, then you need to insure it for that value.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Something that has been said here that I really must disagree with is
that an AC drive is inherently lower performance than a DC drive.
This really isn't true.
In an AC drive, you must go through two switches instead of one in
the controller, but you don't have to go through any brushes.
Aside from the fact that the DC motor is "inside out" from the AC
motor, there is no difference in the magnetic interaction of the
coils with each other. One difference is that in the DC motor, the
armature coils spend a good portion of the time completely
disconnected and not helping at all. It is in a portion of the cycle
that doesn't help much, but they are completely off instead of having
a small current flow.
We have been trying to get a high-power AC drive together for the
KillaCycle for quite a few years but it is really expensive and
difficult to build the inverter. The performance should be much
better in a drag bike than the same weight DC drive. (Yes, better,
not worse.) There are several reasons for this.
In a DC motor, the RPM and armature current is limited by
commutation. As you raise the current, the inductive kick of each
commutator bar gets greater, making a greater spark. As you increase
the RPM, the bar comes out from under the brush more quickly and, you
guessed it, makes a bigger spark. With an AC drive, the commutation
is done electronically and you are not limited by your ability to do
it mechanically. You also don't have to spin the mass of the commutator.
The torque of the motor is set by its size. The HP of a motor is set
by the size TIMES the RPM. Thus, the faster you can spin the motor,
the more HP you can make with a motor of a given size. You can spin
an AC motor much faster than you can a DC motor producing the same torque.
When you are drag racing, the weight of anything that spins hurts
you three or four times as much as things that does not spin. You
must accelerate it linearly down the track, PLUS you must accelerate
it rotationally. The controller is indeed heavier on an AC drive, but
the motor is much much lighter. This helps you a great deal on the drag strip.
When someone finally builds a high-performance AC drive inverter, it
should kick butt on the drag strip. It is not an easy or cheap thing
to do, however.
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't sell electricity: Sell "the service of providing access to" electricity.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Richard Acuti
> Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 9:49 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Grassroots charging infrastructure
>
> Someone mentioned that it's illegal to resell electrical power.
>
> This is sort of throwing a crimp into our plans. I have some questions
> about
> that:
>
> Obviously you can let people roll up to your house and charge for free.
> How
> exactly do you charge for "electrical access"? Pay a flat fee to unlock
> a
> charging box?
>
> Would it be considered "selling" electricity if you accepted donations?
> What
> if you only take the amount of money for the power that they use (no
> profit)?
>
> What's the trick to getting around this?
>
> Rich A.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps.
> http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?ss=Restaurants~Hotels~Amusement%20Park
> &cp=33.832922~-117.915659&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=
> 1118863&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, let's say that there is no 'stick-shift' in my
factory-converted EV and the floor has no hole for a
stick either, because an automatic version was used as
basis for the conversion, including a steering column
P-R-N-D handle; but under the floor sits a manual
gearbox with a bracket to hold it permanently in second
gear, allowing the EV to reach 72 MPH at 9,000 RPM.
Oh, and the 'gear selector' drops a clamp in the
starting ring at [P], while the [R], [N] and [D] are
only different in a switch position to control the
AC drive to run reverse, not and forward.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tehben Dean
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 10:42 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Tesla roadster motor philsophy
On Jun 12, 2007, at 1:11 AM, Cor van de Water wrote:
> Since the max RPMs of an AC motor can be double the speed of a DC
> motor, you can adjust the gearing to double the starting torque again
> (half the gear ratio) but now you have gained nothing: the motor is
> running at double speed and it is immediately reduced to half, so you
> have the same power and torque, no matter if you have a high voltage
> or low voltage setup. Main drawbacks of high voltage are the large nr
> of batteries required and the high wear of the gearbox (or an
> impossible to find diff ratio).
Ok, but with an ICE there is hardly any torque until your up to 3500rpms or
something. right? So you just have to treat an AC motor more like a gas
engine and not lock the tranny in second gear. There is a reason for first
gear you know.
Unless an ICE has more starting torque than and AC motor I don't see what
the problem is....???
Is this correct or am I missing something?
Tehben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sounds like a good idea, as it should benefit builders using a variety of
transmissions, as well as all the aftermarket race hubs etc.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 9:10 PM
Subject: RE: Chevy motor adapters
My point to recommending a racing flywheel was not the "racing flywheel"
version of a stock flywheel, it was to take advantage of the standard
provided that allows using a racing clutch, thus getting away from the
GM or FORD specific clutch.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>I have a question. How does a motor lock up? what is holding it in
>place? 1 leg of the 3-phase?
Two leg failure, if the controller correctly detects a one
leg failure and stops drive to the other two legs. You need two
switches on to inject DC to the motor, which will act as a DC
brake. A single leg failure with the other two legs turned
off will create no torque at all on an ACIM.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is true. I did some research once where a friend in Houston seemed
to be getting gouged by ludicrous electricity costs.
It is up to states. In Texas the Public Utilities Commissions has
jurisdiction IIRC. They do say this: an apartment/condo/rental property
owner cannot make any money on utilities. The money collected must
equal money given to the utility. Just how they can assess that varies.
In her case the explanation was that they spent a huge amount of $$$ on
air conditioning with a central chiller unit, but individual use
couldn't be metered. So they made 2 factors- one was a sq ft charge so
larger pads paid more. The other factor was metered electrical usage,
that an apartment using a lot of power was billed for more of the air
conditioning cost. That second part initially appeared as an illegal
surcharge (and it was huge, making each kwh cost 3x the going rate!) but
later appeared legit. The PUC must approve these assessment methods.
2 notes here. One is that IF these regs apply (not sure if they would
or not) this may cause difficulties paying for a pay charging station-
you could make them pay $1 for the electricity but maybe not $1 for the
meter. Second is that people under these utility assessment methods
could never afford to charge an EV. The method means a lot of the
complex's air conditioning bill ends up on your door.
I have been at a campgrounds where the owner wanted like $10/night to
plug into the electricity which is pretty insane. Don't recall if the
PUC had language which included campgrounds, or if they just don't care.
Danny
Mike Chancey wrote:
As I recall the way the electric regulations in the US are written it
is illegal to resell electricity. Of course, you can sell access to
electricity. If you simply used the concept that 1 hour of access to
a 1800 Watt limit outlet should be treated as purchasing 1.8 Kwh of
electricity then you would meet the letter of the law. That does mean
that users would be potentially paying for power they didn't actually
use, but you could adjust the hourly rate to take those kind of things
into account.
You need to simplify the whole arrangement to keep the installation
cost down. No point in monitoring kilowatt hour use since you can't
bill by it. Each "station" could be as simply as a keypad locked
outlet. Each user would be assigned a pin and entering it would
unlock the outlet. The system would track the number of hours the
system was in use. At the end of the month the total hours would be
billed to the customer. Individual stations could be linked back to
the master station via the electric wiring itself similar to the way
most power utilities now remote read their electric meters.
You could start with something far simpler. Outlets with locking
covers and simple locks would make for a low initial investment.
Charging club members would pay a monthly fee for a key to the locks.
Certainly all this is technically possible. Now we just need a bunch
of EVs to make it commercially viable.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tehben and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: thinking about cost
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:31:10 -0800
>Yep if you think about what you could spend on a new car
>you could instead do a really nice conversion and put up
>a solar array to charge it. Then you would be spending
>nothing (unless you had repairs) for the next 50 years...
Comparing an EV to a beater over 1 yr like you say,
they will most always lose.
But a quality EV built as an EV from scratch will easily
match or beat an ICE of the same class in costs with tech we
have now.
Most conversions sadly will not be cost effective
because they weigh so much, require such a large battery
pack. big EV drive, ect.
But considering other things like how cool EV's are,
long term transport security like if another energy crisis
hits, you will alwas be able to get cheap electricity.
Another is national economy, security issues where oil
supports the worst dictators and terrorist. And compared to
many hobbies, not that costly and good for so many reasons.
But a built, designed as an EV has a much smaller
battery pack, EV drive while getting excellent range,
performance from it's low drag aero, lightweight
body/chassis can easily be.
Though one can have a good to great town EV from a
VW bug, limited to mostly 50 mph or under except for short
bursts because of bad aero shorting range, can be a very
cost effective EV for commuting, shopping, kiddies to
school, ect, and probably cost 1/2 any ICE over 5 yrs, even
the beaters if one builds it right. A 6.7" motor, Altrax
7245 72vdc, 450 amp controller, 8-12 T105's/125's depending
on range needed with doing most of the work yourself, one
should be able to do it under $3-5k.
For higher speeds, a Karman Ghia, old dead aero
Kitcars, ect, can be very cost effective EV's.
Remember, EV's cost by the pound so start with the
lightest glider you can find even if you have to pay more
for, it as it will pay you back in lower running costs for
yrs.
Also a fair number of old late 70's/early 80's,
other used EV's with extremely low mileage that can be
bought reasonable if dead and with a new pack, some other
work, be a very good low cost EV choice.
Other ways for those more adventurist, you can get
a golf cart transaxle with a MC front end gives 50 mph and
with an aero body, probably 60 mph, with a motor upgrage,
75mph. I built a open body one for just $300. Most could do
them for under $1k for a nice little EV.
By good choices you can have cost effective EV's,
and by bad ones, they won't be. But EV's are not inherently
more costly than ICE's, just they are not built in quanities
yet.
For instance, most NEV's use about the same
material, labor costs as my Freedom EV, but by re-arranging
them into a better, more aero, eff EV, I'll get triple the
speed, range with just 6 more, twice the batteries. Those
NEV's are built, not sold, for under $6k so no reason good
EV's like mine can't be made for just a little more once in
mass production. And easily beat any ICE in costs then as my
old one, drove 10 yrs for $1k including everything, did, and
my new one will soon.
Jerry Dycus
>of course you will be buying new batteries but there
>should be some pretty good ones out there in the next few
>years. BTW has anyone figured out if it is cheaper to buy
>gas or replace your lead pack every 5 or whatnot years?
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 3:16 PM
Subject: RE: Grassroots charging infrastructure
Don't sell electricity: Sell "the service of providing access to"
electricity.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
Right on. Thats what Campgrounds have been doing for YEARS, Oh, Marinas,
too. Was just aboard a friend's boat. Gees! He had a cable- to- shore
power cable setup that you coulda TOWED the boat to Europe with! 240/120
volts for the boat's AC setup.EVERY slip had that setup. I coulda charged
with 240 there!THEY, the Marina, sell power, in the slip fee?
Sea Ya
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Richard Acuti
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 9:49 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Grassroots charging infrastructure
Someone mentioned that it's illegal to resell electrical power.
This is sort of throwing a crimp into our plans. I have some questions
about
that:
Obviously you can let people roll up to your house and charge for free.
How
exactly do you charge for "electrical access"? Pay a flat fee to unlock
a
charging box?
Would it be considered "selling" electricity if you accepted donations?
What
if you only take the amount of money for the power that they use (no
profit)?
What's the trick to getting around this?
Rich A.
Like registering EV's you just DO IT! Deal with "It" if it comes up?
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--- Begin Message ---
I did forget to specify that I was talking about taking the
same type of motor to higher RPM requires higher voltage.
Of course the nr of windings can be reduced to lower voltage;
that also changes the motor - look up how little torque is
produced by a 12V 10,000RPM motor.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 6:34 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Tesla roadster motor philsophy
> Dan,
>
> Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is no free lunch.
>
> If you have a motor with a high RPM redline, it will require a higher
> voltage simply because it generates a higher back-EMF that
> counter-acts the voltage that the controller applies to the motor.
Really? I've seen 12V 10,000 rpm motors, if your theory is true (which
apparently it isn't) then how would you explain that?
The RPM vs voltage is a characteristic of the motor design and can be almost
anything the designer wants it to be.
> If the controller does not provide a high enough voltage, then the
> motor will lack power at high RPMs, there will not be enough current
> flow through the motor due to the lack of voltage difference between
> the applied voltage and back EMF.
>
> Another issue with high voltage controllers is that the higher the
> voltage, the lower the current that can be carried by a certain amount
> of silicon.
> Now you may say that it won't matter - the power is still the same if
> the voltage is double and the current half.
> Correct - but the motor is not always turning at optimal RPMs.
> Starting torque is linear with current through the motor, so half the
> current is half the starting torque.
>
> Since the max RPMs of an AC motor can be double the speed of a DC
> motor, you can adjust the gearing to double the starting torque again
> (half the gear ratio) but now you have gained nothing: the motor is
> running at double speed and it is immediately reduced to half, so you
> have the same power and torque, no matter if you have a high voltage
> or low voltage setup. Main drawbacks of high voltage are the large nr
> of batteries required and the high wear of the gearbox (or an
> impossible to find diff ratio).
> What can give you higher low speed torque is a large ratio between
> battery current and maximum motor current, in other words: much more
> silicon than needed for the average drive current.
> I think that is what Otmar did with the Zilla.
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
> Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 2:09 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Tesla roadster motor philsophy
>
> given the weight and power of their motor it seems they are choosing
> the right technology with getting their power through the voltage
> rather than the current by going high rpm (phase velocity). seemingly
> a pure win win other than perhaps a little higher gear ratio needed.
> am I understanding that right or is there more to it?
>
> is high rpm AC the certain way forward?
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic junk
at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I wish
with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah maybe, but also without a special vehicle class on the title then
it may run into an idiotic bureaucratic knot when you try to get the
annual inspection which requires the emission check. Without a tailpipe
there are no emissions, whereas any sane person would let it go the
inspectors legally have no discretion- they must fail a vehicle which
does not produce adequate exhaust flow into the testing machine. I
think that's meant to keep people from passing emissions by putting
holes in the side of the tailpipe so less exhaust flows into the sensor
mounted on the end.
If you have difficulty, call the local news crew. Not because you want
to lay the hate on the govt but because it's a funny story and brings
EVs back into the spotlight for awhile- free press! Heck you could make
it into News of the Weird and let millions of people know that EVs are
still around.
Danny
Roland Wiench wrote:
Hello Corbett,
Some DMV do not care what prime mover you have in your vehicle. You can
install a 4, 6, 8 cylinder engine, a jet engine, a fuel cell. In my state
Montana, you can have it re-title if you want if you have over 50 percent
change on the vehicle. If its less than 50 percent change, it will be
register by the original frame. You can have a new car body on a old frame
that is over 30 years old, it can be register for that original year.
I have a EV call Electro I that is close to 50 percent change and it is
still register as a EL Camino. I have another EV call Transformer I, but it
is register as a Chevelle.
Now I have a CAN AM road race car, that is converted to a sports car, that
uses a Mirage Body on a Porshe front frame and suspension and on a rear
Corvette rear frame and suspension, that has a 327 cu.in. engine mounted to
a Porshe trans axle, but using a Corvette tube axles. All is mounted on a
custom tube frame which I welded a section of 1966 Corvair rear spring
towers which has the Corvair ID tag on it. So it is register as a 1966
Corvair, instead of a 2007 sports car that will be finally completed this
year.
Roland
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I bought a NEMA 10-50 plug and socket plus some hefty cable
to make an extension cord from the stove plug in the kitchen
to reach the driveway. I did already have someone pull down the
full 50A for almost an hour without problem, so he could make it
home without endangering his batteries.
Simple and flexible solution, the only drawback is that you
need to roll it out when needed, it is not a permanent
installation.
In my case that is all the better, because I live in a rental.
Though I am still tempted to install an outdoor 6-20 outlet
near the already present outdoor 5-15, because to the untrained
eye it will look like just another regular outdoor 5-20 outlet,
the difference being that you can't plug a 110V appliance into
it and it will be capable of supplying 240V 20A :-)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 10:29 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Quick VEVCS poll
Of course.
But, It'll be 120vac only. I just don't see much purpose to have a 240vac
charger at home when my car sits in the driveway all night
every night anyway? Now, a 240vac charger at various stores around
town to recharge during the day would be nice.
Z
On 6/11/07, Brandon Kruger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Good afternoon everyone,
> Before I get too into developing this charging station database,
> I thought I'd take a survey to see how many people would actually
> volunteer their charger/120/240 outlet to an EV driver in the area.
> Please take a second to complete this poll.
>
> http://bmk789.dyndns.org/ev/?p=16
>
> Thank you,
> Brandon Kruger
> http://bmk789.dyndns.org/ev/
> http://cafepress.com/altfuel
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
How about if you have your 12 volt battery charge at a gas station, they
charge you and the battery.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 1:16 PM
Subject: RE: Grassroots charging infrastructure
>
> Don't sell electricity: Sell "the service of providing access to"
> electricity.
>
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> I-5, Blossvale NY
>
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Richard Acuti
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 9:49 AM
> > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > Subject: Re: Grassroots charging infrastructure
> >
> > Someone mentioned that it's illegal to resell electrical power.
> >
> > This is sort of throwing a crimp into our plans. I have some questions
> > about
> > that:
> >
> > Obviously you can let people roll up to your house and charge for free.
> > How
> > exactly do you charge for "electrical access"? Pay a flat fee to unlock
> > a
> > charging box?
> >
> > Would it be considered "selling" electricity if you accepted donations?
> > What
> > if you only take the amount of money for the power that they use (no
> > profit)?
> >
> > What's the trick to getting around this?
> >
> > Rich A.
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps.
> > http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?ss=Restaurants~Hotels~Amusement%20Park
> > &cp=33.832922~-117.915659&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=
> > 1118863&encType=1&FORM=MGAC01
>
>
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