EV Digest 6889

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: gas taxes...
        by "Randall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) RE: UK Company Introduces Electric Sportscar with Altairnano Battery
        by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Aircraft Starter generator
        by "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Aircraft Starter generator
        by David Bettencourt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: EV achilles' heel
        by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Aircraft Starter generator
        by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: How the Prius Works
        by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Over-volted ADC: Warranty issue
        by "Steve Kobb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) RE: Solar tonneau cover
        by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: What batteries to try next?
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 11) RE: Aircraft Starter generator
        by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: Over-volted ADC: Warranty issue
        by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: EV achilles' heel
        by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: Aircraft Starter generator 
        by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: How the Prius Works
        by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) RE: How the Prius Works
        by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: New Subscriber
        by jukka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message --- He already pays his fair share...he pays sales tax, income tax, and property tax on the car. It is NC's problem to balance its budget...and diesels running on vegetable oil is NOT a new thing...the very first diesels ran on peanut oil as per design by Rudolf Diesel. :-)

----- Original Message ----- From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 9:53 AM
Subject: RE: gas taxes...

I agree on paying fair share.  The problem is we are cutting new ground
here and a lot of these issues just haven't come up before.  I am
sending an email to my local congressman to see if he is doing anything
law wise to asses taxes for EV cars and people who are making their own
fuel.  I don't want to end up being fined for not paying road tax.

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 9:35
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: gas taxes...

1) guy converts diesel to run on veggie oil.
2) NC tax people come after him, wanting his first born, for "tax"

The gist of my concern (in the article) is:

Folks that use the road, have to pay road-use taxes, which are bundled
into the price of gasoline and diesel.
Of course, Electric Vehicles don't pay this tax....because we don't use
Moreover, vehicles that get better fuel economy pay less tax (I found an
article about that - be prepared in the future for the DMV to begin
retrieving our odometer readings for miles-driven taxation purposes; who
knows, probably already happens in some states, and certainly does for
"business" or personally owned "business use" vehicles).

Here's the math (its simple, even I can do it).
Average miles traveled: 12000
Average MPG (for my camry): 22
Thats ~ 545 gallons.

NC charges 29.9 cents a gallon (according to the article).
(I'm sure its more like 29.999 cents)
.299 * 545 = ~ 162...
Thats $162 a year in taxes (NC State)
This website
indicates Federal tax is 18.4 cents per gallon.
18.4 * 545 = ~100.28

(What are the federal and state taxes on our electric bill? I donno,
haven't looked; I would guess that this *could* be subtracted, to keep
the SOBs in government totally honest).
(note: I don't like big government; I could go on, but I doubt you'd
appreciate it).


The article states that this guy is getting charged $1000 fine, for NC
state taxes (what about county? city?).

Either way, I'm concerned.
(Finally) - Here's my question:

Are the Tax people going to come after us (I use "us" as a generic term;
us EVers, or more specifically, us NC EVers...) because uncle thief
wants more tax revenue?
What recourse do we have (federally, or statewise) - if any?
Has anyone heard of this happening before?
Do we get rewarded (pay less tax) because we're trying to "save the
environment" - "protect the US from terrorists by not giving them money"

(etc, pick a reason for why you drive electric).

Additional comments, and Charlotte Observer article below...

I'd like to own a gas station, and say "Gasoline, $2.00 a gallon, PLUS
TAX (to let people know how much the government gets).
If folks knew how much tax they paid, think they'd get a little upset?
(I'm sure thats why the politicos hide as much tax as they can).

Note: I'm not trying to "get one over on the government that provides
the roads" - I should "help pay" for the road. Not a problem.
Please don't carp about me trying to avoid "paying my fair share" - What
I don't want is for the evil succubus tax person to come after me 3
years hence, and decide I should pay $5k in taxes, and another $10k in


A price to pay for alternative fuels
Bob Teixeira re-applies a sticker touting an alternative fuel he uses
in his car. He plans to fight to change fuel-tax laws that have hit his
wallet.Bob Teixeira decided it was time to take a stand against U.S.
dependence on foreign oil.

So last fall the Charlotte musician and guitar instructor spent $1,200
to convert his 1981 diesel Mercedes to run on vegetable oil. He bought
soybean oil in 5-gallon jugs at Costco, spending about 30 percent more
than diesel would cost.

His reward, from a state that heavily promotes alternative fuels: a
$1,000 fine last month for not paying motor fuel taxes.

He's been told to expect another $1,000 fine from the federal

And to legally use veggie oil, state officials told him, he would have
to first post a $2,500 bond.

Teixeira is one of a growing number of fuel-it-yourselfers -- backyard
brewers who recycle restaurant grease or make moonshine for their car
tanks. They do it to save money, reduce pollution or thumb their noses
at oil sheiks.

They're also caught in a web of little-known state laws that can stifle
energy independence.

State Sen. Stan Bingham, R-Davidson, is known around Raleigh for his
diesel Volkswagen fueled by used soybean oil. The car sports a "Goodbye,
OPEC" sign.

"If somebody was going to go to this much trouble to drive around in a
car that uses soybean oil, they ought to be exempt" from state taxes, he

The N.C. Department of Revenue, which fined Teixeira, has asked
legislators to waive the $2,500 bond for small fuel users. The
department also told Teixeira, after the Observer asked about his case
this week, that it will compromise on his fine.

But officials say they'll keep pursuing taxes on all fuels used in
highway vehicles. With its 29.9-cent a gallon gas tax, the state
collects $1.2 billion each year to pay for road construction.

"With the high cost of fuel right now, the department does recognize
that a lot of people are looking for relief," said Reggie Little,
assistant director of the motor fuel taxes division. "We're not here to
hurt the small guy, we're just trying to make sure that the playing
field is level."

Use promoted, little regulation

State policies firmly endorse alternative fuels.In 2005 legislators
directed state agencies to replace 20 percent of their annual petroleum
use with alternatives by 2010. About 6,000 of the state's 8,500 vehicles
are equipped to use ethanol. The state fleet also includes about 135
gas-electric hybrids.

Few states, however, are prepared to regulate the new fuels, says the
National VegOil Board, which promotes vegetable oil fuel.

"State offices do not have the forms to appropriately and fairly deal
with VegOil, nor the staff to enforce the non-existent forms," said
director Cynthia Shelton. "So either they tell people inquiring about
compliance to get lost, or they make them jump through a bunch of
arbitrary hoops."

Outraged Illinois legislators this spring quickly waived that state's
$2,500 bond requirement when an elderly man was nabbed for using waste
vegetable oil.

In the mountain district of state Sen. John Snow, D-Cherokee,
home-brewed ethanol was once known as moonshine. But a couple of
constituents who made it for fuel have been fined for the same tax
violation that got Teixeira in trouble.

Snow has introduced several bills to promote biodiesel, which under
state law includes vegetable oil.

"One of the biggest problems in the state is a real lack of information
for people who want to use alternative fuels," said Snow's research
assistant, Jonathan Ducote. "It's just now appearing on (regulators')

Done in by bumper sticker

Teixeira's story began near Lowe's Motor Speedway on May 14. As
recreational vehicles streamed in for race week, revenue investigators
were checking fuel tanks of diesel RVs for illegal fuel.

The investigators quickly spotted Teixeira's passing bumper sticker:
"Powered by 100% vegetable oil."

"It was like some twist of fate that put me there," he said. "It was
like I was asking for them to stop me."

Teixeira says revenue officials are just doing their jobs. But he thinks
it's unfair that he was lumped with people who purposely try to avoid
fuel taxes.

"Individuals who are trying to do the right thing environmentally cannot
and should not continue to take this kind of financial hit," he wrote
Mike Easley.

Teixeira says he'll pay the state fine and apply for a state fuel
But pumping regular diesel again "broke my heart."

"I'm ready to get myself legal," he said, "and start using vegetable oil

Alternative Fuel Vehicles*

North CarolinaDiesel 118,479

Flex fuel 121,547

(ethanol capable)

Hybrid 11,758

Total 251,784

South Carolina

Diesel 54,786

Flex fuel 68,303

Hybrid 3,264

Total 126,353

*Registered as of July 2006

SOURCE: Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers

More on Fuel Taxes

Piedmont Biofuels, a biodiesel cooperative in Pittsboro, posts links to
state tax laws on its Web site: http://biofuels.coop/general

-information/taxes//. The N.C. Department of Revenue's motor fuels tax
division has a toll-free number: 877-308-9092.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With a 4.11 rear end he's putting 772 lb-ft * 4.11 = 3173 lb-ft to the wheels
With a 3.73 rear end he's putting 772 lb-ft * 3.73 = 2880 lb-ft to the wheels

My Pinto will use a 3.25 ratio, I estimate that if I can see 1000 lb-ft * 3.25 
= 3250 lb-ft to the wheels.

If we only see 900 lb-ft * 3.25 still equals 2925 lb-ft to the wheels.

BTW, my new Dutchman rear end showed up yesterday, and the chunk with the 3.25 
and Detroit Locker arrived today.   Now if we only
had a couple 9" motors ;-)

Anchorage, Ak.

> -----Original Message-----
> Behalf Of Simon Chambers
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 3:46 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: UK Company Introduces Electric Sportscar with Altairnano
> Battery Pack
> Surely being hub motors they will require more output torque due to driving
> the wheels directly with no gearing?
> How much torque does John Wayland's car put out after gearing (i.e. at the
> wheels)?
> > -----Original Message-----
> > Behalf Of Roderick Wilde
> > Sent: 13 June 2007 4:13 AM
> > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > Subject: Re: UK Company Introduces Electric Sportscar with Altairnano
> > Battery Pack
> >
> > Wow. I am so impressed! 0 to 60 in four seconds and doing that with only
> > 2132 foot pounds of torque. That is unbelievably amazing!!! I am going to
> > run out and post this phenomenal feat everywhere I can think of. This will
> > turn the automotive world upside down. This ain't one of those wimpy DC
> > cars
> > like Wayland has with only 772 foot pounds of torque. As the press release
> > says: "Each HPD40 drive unit offers maximum torque of 750 Nm (533 lb-ft)."
> >
> > Roderick Wilde
> > "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> > www.suckamps.com
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Tehben Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2007 4:39 PM
> > Subject: UK Company Introduces Electric Sportscar with Altairnano Battery
> > Pack
> >
> >
> > Sounds like some pretty insane performance! But what a price tag! US
> > $296,000
> > Tehben
> >
> > UK Company Introduces Electric Sportscar with Altairnano Battery
> > Pack; More Models Planned
> > 12 June 2007
> > Lightning
> > The Lightning GT.
> >
> > A UK-based car company is introducing an all-electric luxury
> > sportscar powered by an Altair Nanotechnologies lithium-ion battery
> > pack and PML Flightlink in-wheel motors. The Lightning Car Company
> > (LCC) is targeting a range for its Lightning GT models of
> > approximately 250 miles and a top speed of 130 mph or 150 mph.
> >
> > The top speed, according to the company, is a function of the motor.
> > This can be manufactured to suit at the expense of acceleration,
> > which in the GTS model is 0-60 mph in 4 seconds.
> >
> > The electric Lightning uses a 35 kWh battery pack with 30 Altairnano
> > large-format NanoSafe batteries. These are currently similar to the
> > batteries used in the Phoenix Motorcars all-electric sport utility
> > truck (SUT). However, LCC plans to change to the higher spec cells in
> > development. Lightning developed the drive system, charge and
> > management system. As to a warranty for the pack, LCC says that it is
> > in discussion with Altairnano.
> >
> > Lightning Car Company did not consider taking the Tesla approach by
> > assembling a battery pack from thousands of commodity small format
> > 18650 cells. The company believes that approach to be a “backward
> > step”, with safety concerns, lower performance, and manufacturing and
> > technical complexity.
> >
> >      We believe Altairnano and their battery technology is leading
> > the world. The issue, however, is purely cost as we do not have tax
> > credits here in UK for our vehicles.
> >      —Arthur Wolstenholme, Lightning Car Company
> >
> > Altairnano batteries can be recharged in 10 minutes, as recently
> > verified for Phoenix Motorcars and the California Air Resources Board
> > by AeroVironment. The Lightning cars require no thermal management or
> > dedicated cooling system for the battery pack. The motor units are
> > cooled using onboard cooling systems.
> >
> > The car uses four 120 kW Hi-Pa HPD40 electric wheel motors from PML
> > Flightlink. The Hi-Pa Drive unit combines the motor and drive
> > electronics in a single package. The units offer full regenerative
> > braking down to very low speed, full holding torque at zero speed, a
> > built-in brake resistor (for full charge regeneration situation), and
> > a wide speed range. (These are the same in-wheel units used by PML
> > Flightlink in the prototype plug-in series hybrid conversion of a
> > MINI, the MIN QED. Earlier post.)
> >
> > Each HPD40 drive unit offers maximum torque of 750 Nm (533 lb-ft).
> > The torque curve is relatively flat, dropping off to around 600Nm at
> > top speed.
> >
> > The body for the Lightning GT is built from a combination of carbon
> > fiber and Kevlar.
> >
> > The price for the extended and top of the range models is around
> > £150,000 (US$296,000). The company is taking reservations for 2008
> > delivery. The company also says that it is also planning other types
> > of electric cars, but that it cannot comment further at this point.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.14/845 - Release Date: 6/12/2007
> > 6:39 AM
> >
> >
> > __________ NOD32 2325 (20070612) Information __________
> >
> > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> > http://www.eset.com
> ___________________________________________________________
> Try the all-new Yahoo! Mail. "The New Version is radically easier to use" – 
> The Wall Street Journal
> http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey dick did not your mother tell you not to play with strangers  and not to
piss people off you don't know..
.. Looks like you need spell check to ..
If it is that important to you.. I would also guess you don't know anything
about the question anyway.. Did it make you feel better to rip my spelling .
 Is that what it takes to make you feel good .. the fine English .language..

-------Original Message------- 
From: Jim Husted 
Date: 06/13/07 21:42:03 
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu 
Subject: Re: Aircraft Starter generator 
--- Phelps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> I see I had a typo.. 400 Amos 30 volts 
Hey Phelps, looks like two in a row, Getting excited 
Are you, hehehe. No time for email checks, got to go 
Work on the convertion, LMAO. Sorry couldn't resist 
How big is this motor? If you want, take some pics 
And send them over to me, and I'll have a look. 
Matter of fact have someone else take the pics cause 
You'll be all excited and jittery and they'll come out 
Blurry 8^P Pics of the brushes and commutator will be 
Jim Husted 
Hi-Torque Electric 
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit
the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Aloha: I don't know of any aircraft that use that kind of voltage for a starter-generator. David

Phelps wrote:
So this is my project now   a aircraft starter generator  on a Geo metro
convertible The motor is 400 amp at 300 volts  permanent magnet..

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The thing we're probably not looking at enough is the whole picture.

Let's say 90% of my driving is 10 miles per day. No problem with a smallish battery pack.
9% is 30 miles of errands.  Probably no problem with a decent pack
1% is 160 miles.

First, I could stack in a bunch of batteries. My Jeep project is at 2000 lbs with a 4300 lb Gross weight. If I actually put in 2300 lbs of batteries, I'd get some range, but it would take more kW to move it. But in the other 99% of my driving, that added weight will use more electricity, every day. The production of that extra electricity is not totally clean. The production and eventual disposal of those extra batteries is not totally clean. I really don't think it's ecologically sound to design for significantly more range than you need most of the time (assuming a reasonable DOD).

I could keep a gasser around for 1% of my driving. The manufacturing and eventual scrapping of another car that will mostly sit and rot in my driveway is not without environmental impact.

I could rent a gasser for long trips. That might make some sense, but does a gasser really pollute less and consume less fuel than an EV and a good small generator? I think it depends on the range of the EV without the generator, and the length of the trip.

I could pull a small generator on a trailer for that 1% of the time I need it. Virtually no downside when I don't use it.

More comments below:

----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 6:58 PM
Subject: RE: EV achilles' heel

Marty Hewes wrote:

> But to get to my parents place and back, if I
> started the generator
> when I left and reduced battery use the whole way, I could
> probably use a generator well less than 5kW and still make
> the trip (since it's charging while I'm parked there and
> stopped at lights).

Something that hasn't come up yet in this iteration of the range
extender discussion is that if the genset is charging while you are
stopped at lights, etc., then you need to consider the acceptability of
the noise and vibration, etc. of the genset running possibly flat out
essentially the entire trip.

I'm thinking it'd be on a trailer, so vibration is no big deal. Some generators are noisy, but they don't have to be. That is a consideration. What concerns me is I'd like air cooled for reduced weight, but I think they tend to be noisier.

Unless you spend much of the time stopped
the genset is unlikely to put much charge into the batteries (a 2min
stop will only allow about 0.6Ah into the battery at 20A, and anytime
the vehicle is in motion the genset output will largely or entirely go
toward offsetting the load rather than charging the battery).

That was my intent, just augment the battery current while moving, which should also reduce the current draw on the batteries enough to significantly improve the number of kWh they can contribute. Do a little charging during stops and deceleration, and while parked at the destination if no opportunity outlet presents itself. As you pointed out, the amount of recharge gained during the duration of a stop light might not be worth the noise.

This is particularly a consideration if you are not willing to put the
genset on a trailer instead of in the vehicle somewhere (I seem to
recall the trailer option being noted as unacceptable).

Personally, I'd have it on a trailer, half the reason I'd do this is so that I could also use it either at the house or the shop (4 miles apart) for building power in case of a power failure, in which case I may not want to be the same place it is.

You also need to consider how you are going to connect the generator to
the battery.  Most gensets provide an AC output, and probably the
slickest way to adapt this to the battery pack is to put one of Rich's
PFC chargers between the two.  Set the current knob for the desired
amount of assistance and leave the voltage as for a normal charge.
Assuming a typical pack voltage in the ballpark of 120V, a PFC20 would
let you run the genset at a little over 50% output; a PFC50 (throttled
back) would let you run it flat out. (Many gensets aren't expected to be
run flat out for extended periods and will not last long used this way.)

Personally, I like the idea of using a considerably bigger generator than necessary, and keeping it 50% output or less. I'm thinking of maybe a small Honda or Subaru (lower aerodynamic profile) car motor loafing along at around 1800 RPM, with a belt drive running one of those Harbor Freight 10kW heads at 3600 RPM putting out around 5kW. Use the car computer for full emissions control, with a decent muffler on it. It ought to be quiet, and last forever. I haven't given a lot of thought to the actual charger yet.

The genset takes up space and payload in the EV, reducing the amount of
battery you can carry.  Depending on the distance you need to go, the
inherent range of the vehicle, and how much energy it consumes, a 5kW
genset might well get you there.  Only you can decide if the noise and
vibration that your otherwise silent EV gains from the onboard genset is
an acceptable compromise.

Agreed. For my use, I'd just use it occasionally to reduce dependance on a huge battery pack or a gasser for my somewhat longer drives. The rest of the time, I don't want to haul it. If I had an S10, I'd be tempted to put it on a palette and drop it in the bed, but in my Jeep project, no way. I still think if the intent is to drive all day, it makes no sense.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow is it a full moon?

Actually I was just trying to have a little fun and
was actually offering my help sizing your motor to see
whether you'll burn it up or not!
Honestly at this point I don't much care any more 8^)
As you noted I don't spell check and don't much care
either.  You sir made it person I did not.
Best of luck
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric

--- Phelps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hey dick did not your mother tell you not to play
> with strangers  and not to
> piss people off you don't know..
> .. Looks like you need spell check to ..
> If it is that important to you.. I would also guess
> you don't know anything
> about the question anyway.. Did it make you feel
> better to rip my spelling .
>  Is that what it takes to make you feel good .. the
> fine English .language..
> -------Original Message------- 
> From: Jim Husted 
> Date: 06/13/07 21:42:03 
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu 
> Subject: Re: Aircraft Starter generator 
> --- Phelps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> > I see I had a typo.. 400 Amos 30 volts 
> ^ 
> Hey Phelps, looks like two in a row, Getting excited
> Are you, hehehe. No time for email checks, got to go
> Work on the convertion, LMAO. Sorry couldn't resist 
> 8^) 
> How big is this motor? If you want, take some pics 
> And send them over to me, and I'll have a look. 
> Matter of fact have someone else take the pics cause
> You'll be all excited and jittery and they'll come
> out 
> Blurry 8^P Pics of the brushes and commutator will
> be 
> Helpful. 
> Cya 
> Jim Husted 
> Hi-Torque Electric 
> ______ 
> Park yourself in front of a world of choices in
> alternative vehicles. Visit
> the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. 
> http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ 

Got a little couch potato? 
Check out fun summer activities for kids.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
so you can't generalize. no biggie.
I think it's a bad design because it's a complicated way to make a gas car look like an EV

TrotFox Greyfoot wrote:
Um dude.  It's not a clutch. A clutch is a friction based mechanical
disconnect.  The Prius has an electronic torque converter if you want
to call it anything other than a CVT.

BTW, it's a CVT.  I'd actually like to know why you think it's a bad
design but seeing as it's in an ICE car, please tell me offline.

I seriously doubt you're going to be asked for any autographs.  Just
my hunch though...

Trot, the fairly-technical, fox...

On 6/13/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Danny Miller wrote:
> No, the CVT is a proper transmission and can carry the full HP of the
> engine to the wheels.
> There is only one electric motor/generator.  Actually there's a second
> motor for engine starting and providing countertorque for the CVT
think about it
it is the variable component deciding the grip from the motor to the

no autographs please :)

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I think with the newer, thinner solar panels, a "popup" shade cover
would be cool, literally.

It gets to 113 for days on end around here, If someone could invent a
folding shade structure that has a solar roof, it could help
charge the car and keep it from getting roasted in the sun.

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--- Begin Message ---
Hello Lee

I have been having a hard time myself finding a good AGM  for the factory 

Have had some fairly bad results with the new  low cost AGM Trojans in group 
24 and 31. I just returned 78 of them and another  person returned 26 of the 
group 31.
I also know of one capacity test on a yellow top group 31 that lasted 30  
minutes at 50 amps brand new off the shelf with a full charge. It should have  
lasted 75 or 80 minutes.

I had asked if anyone had any feedback on the  Odyssey batteries which is 
part of Hawker. No one responded but it looks like a  good battery but they are 
expensive a lot less than your Concords. I remember  looking at Concords and 
from what I read felt they were a well made battery. If  they lasted you 10 
years they must be good. How many miles did you get out of  them?  Your 
is the 95 Ah rating a 20 C rate? 

Odyssey  claims theirs are military grade the PC 2150 has a 1C rate of 73 Ah 
the 20 hour  is 100 Ah.  

I am  curious what is the weight of the vehicle and how much are you 
budgeting for the  batteries?

Don Blazer

In a message dated 6/13/2007 1:13:39 PM  Pacific Daylight Time, 
Well, my almost  10-year-old pack of 12v 95ah Concorde AGMs is ready for 
retirement. Out of  the original 12, only 9 are left. I just lost #10 to 
an internal open). The  low remaining pack voltage, coupled with the 
remaining battery's already low  amphour capacity, gives me too little 
range to bother with them any  more.

So... I'm wondering what kind of batteries to try next. More  Concordes 
at $340 each? Optima D31's at $270 or so each? Go back to flooded  (even 
they are around $160 each)? Maybe a cheap set of Sam's Club specials  for 
$60 each (they won't last long, but the price is low).

Many  switch to an "exotic" battery? Thundersky lithiums (but where to 
get good  ones)? Nicads? Nimh?

I'm open to suggestions! :-)

Ring the  bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in  everything
That's how the light gets in     --    Leonard Cohen
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell  MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Phelps, that was the one guy you would really want to answer your question, 
although you probably wouldn't know it.  And he
wasn't speaking English, that was jivanese, (thats what DC motorheads speak 
after a hard day of wrapping windings).  What he meant
was that its really exciting working on a new conversion, and was making a 
funny about it being too overwhelming to operate a
camera being so excited (he was only speaking from experience of drinking 36 
cups of coffee for breakfast and tearing into peoples
brand new motors ;-)  Just send him some pics of the thing, I'll be surprised 
if he hasn't seen one.

Anchorage, Ak.

> -----Original Message-----
> Behalf Of Phelps
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 7:11 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Aircraft Starter generator
> Hey dick did not your mother tell you not to play with strangers  and not to
> piss people off you don't know..
> .. Looks like you need spell check to ..
> If it is that important to you.. I would also guess you don't know anything
> about the question anyway.. Did it make you feel better to rip my spelling .
>  Is that what it takes to make you feel good .. the fine English .language..
> -------Original Message-------
> From: Jim Husted
> Date: 06/13/07 21:42:03
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Aircraft Starter generator
> --- Phelps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I see I had a typo.. 400 Amos 30 volts
> ^
> Hey Phelps, looks like two in a row, Getting excited
> Are you, hehehe. No time for email checks, got to go
> Work on the convertion, LMAO. Sorry couldn't resist
> 8^)
> How big is this motor? If you want, take some pics
> And send them over to me, and I'll have a look.
> Matter of fact have someone else take the pics cause
> You'll be all excited and jittery and they'll come out
> Blurry 8^P Pics of the brushes and commutator will be
> Helpful.
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
> _____________________________________________________________________________
> ______
> Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit
> the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
> http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Plenty of examples of people using them at higher
voltages.  Keep your RPM's limited to 5000 an you'll
be fine (unless you get a lemon to begin with, lol)

One thing to note that I've found.  On new motors, ADC
uses (at least the few I've seen) a flat brush and it
is not seated.  This is why all the old timers ran
their motors in. I doubted all their seating in talk
of flat brushes as I had never seen a non-pre-seated
brush before.  When I order replacement brushes they
come pre-seated or curved to basic commutator curve. 
Kind of fun to find the answer to why we're all
looking at each other like we're crazy, and don't
think the other knowwhat the heck their talking about,
truth is there are two different brushes one for new
motors and one for resale.

Next, make sure it's set so the brush timing is
correct for your rotation and it should be timed for a
CCDE rotation when received.

One last thing, you might want to test all the brush
and lead screw connections (just don't stab the comm
with the screwdriver).  I found a lead connection on
one of Lawless' ADC9's and it was two full turns loose
which would have caused a warranty at even lower
voltages but could still be used against you if this
were to happen.

To be really thorough after blocking the motor bench
test it under "12 volts" and run it to make sure she
arrived safely with no shipping damage.  Issues are
not the norm, ADC makes a good motor, just some things
to be aware of so to speak.

If nothing else tame yourself from John Wayland like
"desires" to pound down the amp peddle to see what
she'll do, until you've put some miles on it and
developed some comm film as well as seating in the

Anyway just thought I'd put my two cents in.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric

Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. 
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can't find a link at the moment, but if you google around you will
find out how to build a propane powered turbine from automotive
There are hobby groups that connect them to a generator to make compact

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is it a JH-29 used by www.e-volks.com? If so they run
it up to 96 volts with heavy duty air blowing through
it. I plan on using one in a Honda CRF. Have it
already. Just need to build an adapter, get a
controller, batteries and wiring. Got a bit to go.
Plan on using an AXE-7245 72 volts 450 amps.    
--- Phelps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> So this is my project now   a aircraft starter
> generator  on a Geo metro
> convertible 
> The motor is 400 amp at 300 volts  permanent
> magnet..
> So guys in lighting me .. What do I have to look
> forward to on my first EV
> --
> -----Original Message------- 
> From: John Wayland 
> Date: 6/12/2007 8:49:41 AM  
> > 
> I believe this. There are a lot of hills around
> here, some of them 
> Pretty steep, so yes, in our beautiful urban area
> (we are the only major 
> City in the USA with an extinct volcano within the
> city limits) regen is 
> A nice feature. HEL--LOW everyone...I've 'never'
> said I don't like 
> Regen! In fact, I think it's great. 
> In my first version of Blue Meanie, waaaay back in
> 1980, I used a 
> Primitive aircraft starter generator as the traction
> source. It was a 
> Very inefficient motor, and thus ran very hot all
> the time, but it was a 
> Versatile compound wound type beast with its
> selectable windings. In 
> Addition to having the acceleration power of the
> mighty series-wound 
> Motor within, you could also excite the shunt
> windings of its generator 
> Soul and get mondo regen, the kind that would try to
> through you through 
> The windshield if you got carried away! Some where
> in cyber space 
> there's my detailed post of a trip I took from my
> east Portland home 
> Westward across the city, up and over the steep
> Sylvan hills (6% grade 
> For nearly 4 miles), out to Beaverton where the car
> was put on charge 
> But because of time restraints (high output constant
> current PFC 
> Chargers didn't exist back then) it didn't get fully
> charged...then 
> Reverse the process back home. This was when my
> little Datsun ran at a 
> Heady 48 volts, folks, just 8 6V golf car batteries!
> Anyway...I barely 
> Made it up the west side grade to the summit of
> Sylvan hill as the 
> Batteries were exhausted from their not-so-great
> recharge...the car 
> Crawled to the top and was at a tepid human's
> walking gate as it rolled 
> Over the crest...whew! I kicked on full regen which
> held the car to a 
> Slow 15 mph or so down the hill, but hundreds of
> amps were jammed into 
> The poor abused batteries (my formative years, so
> give me a break for 
> Committing battricide). I could have coasted down
> the hill, but after 
> The lowest point as you re-enter Portland, there's a
> big ass bridge you 
> Have to transverse that arches high up and over the
> Willamette River 
> that's part of the freeway system that outs you onto
> I-84 East. Had I 
> Merely coasted, the car 'might' have had enough
> momentum to make it up 
> And over the bridge, but it surely would have died
> afterwards on the 
> L-o-n-g ramp that winds to the I-84 and I would have
> found myself stuck 
> Alongside the crazy freeway. However, because of the
> high current, long 
> Duration regen I employed, the car had a burst of
> power in its battery 
> Pack and I was able to make the ~ 9 mile trek (all a
> gradual uphill 
> Route) all the way back to my driveway! Yes, it was
> a 100% discharge,Thanks
> for acknowledging this. Yes, I know I'm right about
> it. I have 
> Logged too many miles behind the wheel of EV1s to
> not know this, and 
> Yes, I've even driven Solectria's vehicles (their
> twin rear motor 
> Pickups and unfortunately, their s-l-o-w Geo
> Metros). 
> >

Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're surfing.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Unless they have drastically chaged the way the prius works, This is not

A 4 gear planatery gears set called the power split device is
sandwitched between two motors labeled MG1 and MG2. All togather in the
space of a tranny and submersed in oil. The mechanical resistance of one
of the MG,m used as a generator, is used to vary the effective ratio in
this planatary gearset. It can't even go reverse without the electric

here is one of many links

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--- Begin Message ---
Did it ever occur to you that almost every reply you receive
starts with "NO", after you make a statement?

In case you want to alter this, I suggest that you read up
on a subject before commenting, because it tells a lot
about a person when he is continuously corrected for making
false statements. Let me make it obvious: Nobody believes you
if all the long time senior members either do not take the
effort to reply to your posts (because you have shown an
attitude that you do not want to learn from the info on this list)
and others are constantly correcting the wrong data you are

Now a very honest question:
Why are you on this list?

Are you trying to learn? Your attitude says no.
Are you trying to share knowledge? The corrections tell otherwise.
Are you trying to share your attitude? This list only exists by
enough people not having one that gets in the way all the time.

Many people on this list have studied the Prius intricate workings
and the genius construction in many unique new techniques, leading
to it being the highest mileage car that you can buy today in the
USA and it has sold almost a million units already.
So, your statement "why bother, it is just another plain ICE"
shows a total lack of what the Prius has established and how
it is a great way to make everyone aware of how electric drive
works well in a car, even though it is currently fully fueled
from gasoline. 

Now, if your intention on this list is to stir as much as
possible controversy, then I think you are doing a wonderful job.
People like that are usually quickly recognised and categorised
as troll, after which everyone, except the inexperienced, will
ignore the troll.

Where do you stand?

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]    Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water     IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225    VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675    eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb

-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 1:16 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: How the Prius Works

(-Phil-) wrote:
> Just to clarify, the Prius doesn't have a separate CVT.  The CVT *is* 
> the motor/generators!
> By shuffling power between the 2 motor/gens you effectively have a 
> CVT. It's a totally ingenious system!
aside from the fact that the end result is an expensive ICE car and not an
EV. it's effectively an electric clutch. the design will not survive and
should never have been. if one was conspiratorially inclined (and one is)
one might be suspicious that they intentionally chose a bad design because
it could give the illusion of being environmentally friendly while still
remaining a pure ICE car.

> The motor/gens are surprisingly small and oil cooled.  They have high 
> voltage windings on them.  The voltage used is 500v which comes from a 
> bi-directional DC-DC converter as the battery is only a little more 
> than 200v.  The inverter box under the hood contains this DC-DC 
> converter, a smaller DC-DC converter to keep the aux 12v battery 
> charged, and 3 IGBT based inverters.  2 larger ones for the 2 
> motor/gens and 1 small one for the electric AC compressor.
high voltage does appear to be the key. amps are bad

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I have the 1000th cycle just coming up with LFP-30 cell on tester. The 160 ah cell you're referring must be LFP one.

I will put plots to net with details as soon as it reaches 1000th. It was well over 800 cycles (100% DOD) week ago. I plan to cycle it as long as it fails completely. Every cycel as much as can be taken. 1C cycles.

So far I can say that from 400 to 800 cycles the capacity reduction is about 3 % with 100% DOD cycles. this cell had already originally only about 27 Ah or so.

Internal resistance seemed to be in ok level for EV use. But more as soon as I have it written and on the net.


p.s.- I'm currently sitting in our office in TS factory (Shenzhen, China). Any other questions guys ?

Ian Hooper kirjoitti:
On 13/06/2007, at 3:57 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

You must be referring to Thunder Sky batteries? Has anyone actually cycle
tested these batteries and reported the results? I  would not go by their
information posted. I would want to see a test with the C rate needed for an EV?

The 160Ah cells I referred to were ThunderSky, yeah, though there are a few other manufacturers around the same $0.50/Wh price point (e.g Liteway, Huanyu). All the cheap ones are Chinese of course, which might be a bit of a concern!

I haven't come across any independent cycle life tests for them yet, no. Maybe I should set up a test rig doing 1C cycles and see how they go. Hmm at ~12 cycles per day, it'd 6 months non-stop to reach 2K cycles! Guess I'd better get started ;)

The question that should be asked of Dave is how much does he have to budget
for this? Ian Do you have a link for the BMS?

A couple of suitable BMSs:



In a message dated 6/13/2007 12:02:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
35 miles is a long commute! My sympathies  :)

While I don't disagree with charging at work being a good idea  to
reduce battery requirements, I think you could a 90 mile range  with
about $10K worth of lithium..

Going with ~200 Wh/mile for  a small car like a Fiero or Del Sol,
let's say you need a 20kWh  pack.

With lead acid, that'd be something like 25 Trojan T105s, which  would
weigh over 1500 pounds - obviously not feasible in a small  sports
car! And you wouldn't be able to get 200Wh/mile, that's for  sure.

With lithiums, as an example you could use 40x 3.2V 160Ah  LiFePO4
cells, which would come in under 500 pounds, and would cost  ~US$10700
including freight. Might not be out of the  question.

$30-50K is possibly what it'd cost if you used Valence  batteries..
(But why would you!? ;)


On 13/06/2007,  at 1:50 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hello Dave

 Your best plan would be to work on your employer to allow charging
at work.
Your required 35 miles is going to be hard enough to  achieve with
lead acid.
You  will have to spend  between 30 and 50 thousand for the
batteries alone to
 go  70 to 90 miles. It also sounds like you are going to want AC?
You could
figure a  10 or 15% deduction when running that.  Or as others has
posted use a
cooler with  ice or  some other way without adding added drain on
the  pack.

Low cost new technology batteries are not here  yet.

Don Blazer

In a message dated  6/12/2007 4:57:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
I am looking to build my own EV-Conversion  in the next 5  years,
but I know
little.  I am just  getting  started.  Most people have suggested
that my  first
vehicles be of DC  instead of AC in lieu of cost and  simplicity.

I am going to purchase  either a 86 and above  Pontiac Fiero or a
Honda Del

Both  have body  styles I like and considerable aerodynamics.

 This will be a commuter  vehicle.  I need to get at least 90  miles
per charge
my work is 35  miles  away.  I need to know I can get back and forth
on a  80%
charge..  ie over time and life of battery I can still drive  back
and forth
work.  I need to be able  to hit at least 70 mph Max highway speeds
out here
 (people are crazy) And I have to have air conditioning.. as I live
and work
the hot Arizona sun.

My  question for the day is what is  the difference between
 different types of
batteries.  And also what is  "sag" And how  do 12v 18v and 6v bat
compare that

Everyone  wants the lighter longerlasting Lith-ion  Valance bat's
but they are
yet   available....  Also, in some of the documentation I believe I
read that
can only have so many in series..
 (U-Charge RT Power System PDF 5th  item down on featurs * Series
up to
4 batteries)  If they  were  available would that be enough???

Thanks for any help I will  be  reading and saving $$ for my

 Dave  Wells

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