EV Digest 6894
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: How the Prius Works
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Toyota nixes lithium-ion battery for next generation Prius, for now.
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Over-volted ADC: Warranty issue
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: High voltage? was Anyone heard of these Li-Ion batteries - or
using them?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: New Subscriber
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: What batteries to try next?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: What batteries to try next?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: How the Prius Works
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Over-volted ADC: Warranty issue
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: What batteries to try next?
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: How the Prius Works
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: How the Prius Works
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: How the Prius Works
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) RE: How the Prius Works
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: New Subscriber
by jukka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: How the Prius Works
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: lion testing
by jukka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
You can find a lot on the web about the power split
Prius design and operation. Here's one
http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-technical-info
Jeff
--- "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Phil,
>
> I read the wikipedia article and it still sounds
> like what the article
> Jeff sent the link for. MG1 is the generator hooked
> to a planetary
> gearbox. It sounds like the are now calling the
> planetary gearbox a
> "differential" now instead. The wikipedia and the
> ecrostech articles
> don't show pictures of the mechanicals of the
> system. Does anyone have
> pictures of how MG1 and MG2 connects? Saying that
> MG1 connects to the
> Sun gear doesn't show HOW it connects. Does it have
> a gear on the
> outside that MG1 drives? Does it have clutches like
> the sun gear of an
> automatic have? I like the mention of MG2 connected
> through the
> driveshaft. That makes sense since it is
> responsible for the torque.
> It looks like MG1 could be just chained to the ICE
> motor and run only
> when the motor is running. It would be really nice
> to see one of these
> out of the car so each part could be shown and a
> more detailed operation
> explained. Personnally I think the ecrostech
> article is much more
> informative. The wikipedia article is interesting
> but as I understand
> it wikipedia is not the most reliable source of
> information since anyone
> can edit the data.
>
> Jody
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of (-Phil-)
> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 6:01
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: How the Prius Works
>
> I suggest you guys do a modicum of research..... You
> are incorrect.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive
>
> -Phil
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 3:06 PM
> Subject: Re: How the Prius Works
>
>
> > No, the CVT is a proper transmission and can carry
> the full HP of the
> > engine to the wheels.
> > There is only one electric motor/generator.
> Actually there's a second
>
> > motor for engine starting and providing
> countertorque for the CVT
> gears
> > but it's not a drive motor.
> > The motor/generator is only there to boost the
> peak engine power and
> allow
> > the engine to shut off when its high power is not
> needed and there is
> > sufficient battery power to meet the driver's
> demands.
> >
> > Danny
> >
> > Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> >
> >> I didn't say it was a series hybrid. I said it
> was essentially an
> >> electric clutch. isn't it?
> >>
> >> I don't think the prius arrangement could be
> cheaper than a series
> >> layout. I would be interested in hearing the
> design justification but
>
> >> doubt it would satisfy
> >>
> >> Dan
> >>
> >> Danny Miller skrev:
> >>
> >>> No, it has a mechanical CVT transmission in
> there. Gears and all.
> The
> >>> Prius is a parallel hybrid, if the wiring
> between a generator and
> motor
> >>> were the only link from engine to wheels then
> it'd be a series
> hybrid.
> >>>
> >>> It's interesting to note that the engineers
> spent an awful lot of
> design
> >>> time, expense and weight to make a CVT tranny
> rather than add a
> separate
> >>> motor from the generator so they can run at
> different speeds.
> Either
> >>> the losses are simply too high or the second
> motor is more expensive
>
> >>> than the tranny.
> >>>
> >>> The earlier generations of Prius used an
> electric motor that could
> not
> >>> produce great acceleration or top speed without
> the engine. In 2003
> the
> >>> hatchback had a 50KW motor instead of the
> earlier 30KW and 33KW
> ones.
> >>>
> >>> Danny
> >>>
> >>> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> (-Phil-) wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Just to clarify, the Prius doesn't have a
> separate CVT. The CVT
> *is*
> >>>>> the motor/generators!
> >>>>> By shuffling power between the 2 motor/gens
> you effectively have a
>
> >>>>> CVT. It's a totally ingenious system!
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> aside from the fact that the end result is an
> expensive ICE car and
> not
> >>>> an EV. it's effectively an electric clutch. the
> design will not
> survive
> >>>> and should never have been. if one was
> conspiratorially inclined
> (and
> >>>> one is) one might be suspicious that they
> intentionally chose a bad
>
> >>>> design because it could give the illusion of
> being environmentally
> >>>> friendly while still remaining a pure ICE car.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________Ready
for the edge of your seat?
Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe it turned out to be not as reliable? Or maybe cost too much to
implement at this time? I wonder how much increased range the Prius
would get at full electric mode on Lithium Ion. I think the present
Prius can go 11 miles on electric only.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 11:43
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Toyota nixes lithium-ion battery for next generation Prius, for
now.
There is an article in today's Wall Street Journal stating that Toyota
has decided not to use a lithium-ion battery in its next generation
Prius whose launch was scheduled for the fall of 2008. Instead they say
they will use a more advanced version of the nickel metal hydride
battery presently in use.
The lithium-ion battery technology they refer to uses lithium cobalt
oxide, not the same as the lithium battery produced by A123. There is
mention that Toyota has not given up on lithium-ion technology. There is
mention that they have been testing a Prius equipped with lithium-ion
technology that they still consider experimental, presumably the more
advanced lithium iron phosphate chemistry similar too or perhaps
provided by A123.
Lawson Huntley
************************************** See what's free at
http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Zeke Yewdall wrote:
I have heard of people running as high as 284 volts into the 9" ADC.
The prototype of the Tango was doing that for at least a while. I
think that most the time the two motors were in series, but IIRC, it
did have a parallel mode too.
When I drove it, the Tango had a 300v nominal pack (25 12v Optimas). The
Zilla controller could switch the two ADC 9" motors in series or
parallel, so at least in theory it could have applied the full pack
voltage to each motor. But in practice that didn't happen.
At low speeds, the motors were in series and only saw half pack voltage
at most.
At high speeds the motors were in parallel, but you couldn't go fast
enough for the controller to reach "full on" where it would apply full
pack voltage. The ADC 9" would be at 7000+ RPM at 300v and 500a (1000a
from the controller). With the Tango's 5:1 gearing and 24" diameter
tires, that's in excess of 100 mph.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If you produce anything today you risk the chance of being sued. You
don't even have to be in the wrong. They [are] trying to keep
themselves from going to court.
The way I see it, we all run the risk of being sued just by living in a
technological society. Also of being hit by an idiot driver, poisoned by
a restaurant, etc.
So, I will take *reasonable* precautions, but not try to live my life by
cowering in the basement in fear. As an engineer, I design things the
best that I can. I know they aren't perfect, but the perfect is the
enemy of the good. If we demand perfection or nothing, we will get nothing.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
jukka wrote:
p.s.- I'm currently sitting in our office in TS factory (Shenzhen,
China). Any other questions guys?
I am one of those people that bought a sample lot of TS cells back in
2003. I was luckier than most as I only bought a small number. The cells
were old and mismatched, and did not meet specs. They were completely
useless for EV use; a waste of money.
If these cells had been good, I was fully prepared to buy more, and put
them in my EV. If they had worked out well, I am in a good position to
recommend them to other EV companies and builders, as my voice is widely
respected. I have done consulting work on several EVs, and am currently
involved in a production electric car (the Sunrise). Thundersky
batteries could well have wound up in any of these applications.
The only way I would try Thundersky again is if I bought them from a
distributor that I trust, with a good guarantee.
The Chinese should know better than most that your reputation is the
most valuable thing you have. Destroy it, and you have destroyed
yourself. No one wants to take a chance with you again when there are so
many alternatives.
--
"If a cat sits on a hot stove and gets burned, he won't sit on a hot
stove again. But he won't sit on a cold one again, either." Mark Twain
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Have had some fairly bad results with the new low cost AGM Trojans in
group 24 and 31. I just returned 78 of them and another person
returned 26 of the group 31.
Ouch. Trojan floodeds are good; I was hoping they'd be good at AGMs.
I also know of one capacity test on a yellow top group 31 that lasted
30 minutes at 50 amps brand new off the shelf with a full charge. It
should have lasted 75 or 80 minutes.
Other anecdotal evidence also suggests that Optimas have gone down in
quality.
I had asked if anyone had any feedback on the Odyssey batteries
which is part of Hawker. No one responded but it looks like a good
battery but they are expensive...
I've used Oddysseys in other applications and they were a fine battery.
I have not tried one in a really high-drain EV application, though.
Hawkers in general have been good batteries for EVs -- expensive, though!
I remember looking at Concords and from what I read felt they were
a well made battery. If they lasted you 10 years they must be good.
How many miles did you get out of them? Your Concords is the 95 Ah
rating a 20 C rate?
Yes, they are GPC-1295, rated 12v at 95ah at the 20-hour rate. I paid
about $150 per battery back in 1997. Today they want $340 for the same
battery (now called the AGM-12100T). I'm hoping I can do better.
I got long life in part because of aggressive battery management. People
who don't have gotten much shorter life (2-3 years; typical for most
AGMs with poor BMS). Also, I don't drive much -- I probably have about
13k miles on them (odometer is broken; E-meter says 647 charge cycles
and I go about 20 miles per charge cycle).
I am curious what is the weight of the vehicle and how much are you
budgeting for the batteries?
1980 Renault LeCar; weighs 2420 lbs with 756 lbs of batteries. I'm
mostly interested in low cost per mile for the new batteries. I don't
want to spend a whole lot, because it's an old "daily driver" EV, not a
show car or racer. I'd use flooded 8v golf cart batteries, which would
keep the system voltage up around 96v; but they are taller and I'd have
to rebuild the front battery box.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Brandt wrote:
Hi, Lee. I can recommend power-sonic's for your application. They
are like the concorde's you used. Not high rate, but longish life,
rectangular, available in a lot of sizes, and they have built in
handles.
I got good tech support from them, and I have tested them on a 500A
draw (with a carbon pile tester - the zilla is set at 375A max limit
right now), and the voltage stays relatively stiff (nothing like
optimas, of course, but enough for how you have said you drive your
EV.
I have three spares - if you want I can ship you one to test to see
if you would like it, Let me know offlist and I'll give you my phone
number. I would like to get some relief on the shipping cost,
though.
I got the 100 Ahr ones for $135 each. Had to pay about $100 for home
delivery, but that is definitely worth it.
I've used lots of small Power-Sonic batteries, and they have worked
well. Not the longest life or lowest internal resistance, but a good
bargain for the price. I've never tried any of their bigger ones.
$140 each is a great price! Where did you buy, and what model did you
get? My present batteries are 12"L x 6.6"W x 9"H -- the Power-Sonic
PS121000 looks like a good match.
If more of the ones you have are available, I'd be delighted to test one
for you and give you the results. I'd be willing to pay shipping one way
if you pay it the other way (where are you located?)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That website is AWESOME! That is EXACTLY what I was looking for. Now I
totally understand how it does it. I didn't even think about a shaft
rotating within another shaft for the MG1 engine combo. Smart. So
basically there has to be some kind of brake on the sun gear while the
MG2 is powering the car. Then the MG2 is driving the car and MG1 is
free to suck off some of the spinning to power accessories. When the
system runs low on power, the brake releases, starts the engine, and now
power is coming from the engine with assist from MG2 in the 78% engine
22% MG2 split as mentioned in the ecrostech article.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Major
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 11:57
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: How the Prius Works
You can find a lot on the web about the power split Prius design and
operation. Here's one
http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-technical-info
Jeff
--- "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Phil,
>
> I read the wikipedia article and it still sounds like what the article
> Jeff sent the link for. MG1 is the generator hooked to a planetary
> gearbox. It sounds like the are now calling the planetary gearbox a
> "differential" now instead. The wikipedia and the ecrostech articles
> don't show pictures of the mechanicals of the system. Does anyone
> have pictures of how MG1 and MG2 connects? Saying that
> MG1 connects to the
> Sun gear doesn't show HOW it connects. Does it have a gear on the
> outside that MG1 drives? Does it have clutches like the sun gear of
> an automatic have? I like the mention of MG2 connected through the
> driveshaft. That makes sense since it is responsible for the torque.
> It looks like MG1 could be just chained to the ICE motor and run only
> when the motor is running. It would be really nice to see one of
> these out of the car so each part could be shown and a more detailed
> operation explained. Personnally I think the ecrostech article is
> much more informative. The wikipedia article is interesting but as I
> understand it wikipedia is not the most reliable source of information
> since anyone can edit the data.
>
> Jody
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of (-Phil-)
> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 6:01
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: How the Prius Works
>
> I suggest you guys do a modicum of research..... You are incorrect.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive
>
> -Phil
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 3:06 PM
> Subject: Re: How the Prius Works
>
>
> > No, the CVT is a proper transmission and can carry
> the full HP of the
> > engine to the wheels.
> > There is only one electric motor/generator.
> Actually there's a second
>
> > motor for engine starting and providing
> countertorque for the CVT
> gears
> > but it's not a drive motor.
> > The motor/generator is only there to boost the
> peak engine power and
> allow
> > the engine to shut off when its high power is not
> needed and there is
> > sufficient battery power to meet the driver's
> demands.
> >
> > Danny
> >
> > Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> >
> >> I didn't say it was a series hybrid. I said it
> was essentially an
> >> electric clutch. isn't it?
> >>
> >> I don't think the prius arrangement could be
> cheaper than a series
> >> layout. I would be interested in hearing the
> design justification but
>
> >> doubt it would satisfy
> >>
> >> Dan
> >>
> >> Danny Miller skrev:
> >>
> >>> No, it has a mechanical CVT transmission in
> there. Gears and all.
> The
> >>> Prius is a parallel hybrid, if the wiring
> between a generator and
> motor
> >>> were the only link from engine to wheels then
> it'd be a series
> hybrid.
> >>>
> >>> It's interesting to note that the engineers
> spent an awful lot of
> design
> >>> time, expense and weight to make a CVT tranny
> rather than add a
> separate
> >>> motor from the generator so they can run at
> different speeds.
> Either
> >>> the losses are simply too high or the second
> motor is more expensive
>
> >>> than the tranny.
> >>>
> >>> The earlier generations of Prius used an
> electric motor that could
> not
> >>> produce great acceleration or top speed without
> the engine. In 2003
> the
> >>> hatchback had a 50KW motor instead of the
> earlier 30KW and 33KW
> ones.
> >>>
> >>> Danny
> >>>
> >>> Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> (-Phil-) wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Just to clarify, the Prius doesn't have a
> separate CVT. The CVT
> *is*
> >>>>> the motor/generators!
> >>>>> By shuffling power between the 2 motor/gens
> you effectively have a
>
> >>>>> CVT. It's a totally ingenious system!
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> aside from the fact that the end result is an
> expensive ICE car and
> not
> >>>> an EV. it's effectively an electric clutch. the
> design will not
> survive
> >>>> and should never have been. if one was
> conspiratorially inclined
> (and
> >>>> one is) one might be suspicious that they
> intentionally chose a bad
>
> >>>> design because it could give the illusion of
> being environmentally
> >>>> friendly while still remaining a pure ICE car.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
____________Ready for the edge of your seat?
Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ah. Interesting. That was a fast little car. It was funny seeing it
driving around the streets of Spokane without a body on it back in
'99. Looked like a go cart welded to a pile of junk, but then it
pulled away from the stoplight so fast that it left you wondering
where it went.
On 6/14/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> I have heard of people running as high as 284 volts into the 9" ADC.
> The prototype of the Tango was doing that for at least a while. I
> think that most the time the two motors were in series, but IIRC, it
> did have a parallel mode too.
When I drove it, the Tango had a 300v nominal pack (25 12v Optimas). The
Zilla controller could switch the two ADC 9" motors in series or
parallel, so at least in theory it could have applied the full pack
voltage to each motor. But in practice that didn't happen.
At low speeds, the motors were in series and only saw half pack voltage
at most.
At high speeds the motors were in parallel, but you couldn't go fast
enough for the controller to reach "full on" where it would apply full
pack voltage. The ADC 9" would be at 7000+ RPM at 300v and 500a (1000a
from the controller). With the Tango's 5:1 gearing and 24" diameter
tires, that's in excess of 100 mph.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are these different concordes than the ones sold for PV systems?
Because I can get a 6 volt 210AH one (about the same capacity as a 12
volt 95AH one) for only $230 retail. I haven't looked up the 12 volt
one, because it's not a standard one I buy alot, but I imagine the
price would be similar. I love them for PV, but I didn't think they
were high enough rate for EV's.
On 6/14/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
David Brandt wrote:
> Hi, Lee. I can recommend power-sonic's for your application. They
> are like the concorde's you used. Not high rate, but longish life,
> rectangular, available in a lot of sizes, and they have built in
> handles.
>
> I got good tech support from them, and I have tested them on a 500A
> draw (with a carbon pile tester - the zilla is set at 375A max limit
> right now), and the voltage stays relatively stiff (nothing like
> optimas, of course, but enough for how you have said you drive your
> EV.
>
> I have three spares - if you want I can ship you one to test to see
> if you would like it, Let me know offlist and I'll give you my phone
> number. I would like to get some relief on the shipping cost,
> though.
>
> I got the 100 Ahr ones for $135 each. Had to pay about $100 for home
> delivery, but that is definitely worth it.
I've used lots of small Power-Sonic batteries, and they have worked
well. Not the longest life or lowest internal resistance, but a good
bargain for the price. I've never tried any of their bigger ones.
$140 each is a great price! Where did you buy, and what model did you
get? My present batteries are 12"L x 6.6"W x 9"H -- the Power-Sonic
PS121000 looks like a good match.
If more of the ones you have are available, I'd be delighted to test one
for you and give you the results. I'd be willing to pay shipping one way
if you pay it the other way (where are you located?)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Generally a clutch is understood to be some kind of friction
coupling to make or break the link between engine and wheels.
In the Prius the engine is always connected to the wheels
via the torque split device. Still the engine can run while
the car is at standstill and the car can move while the
engine is at 0 RPM, because the torque split device resembles
a differential, with the wheels at one output and a motor/
generator at the other output.
By spinning the motor at the proper speed, the wheels can be
standstill while the engine runs.
Spinning it in reverse direction, the engine can be standstill
while the wheels are turning.
Really genius.
Certainly not a clutch, as there are only sprockets and a chain
between engine, motors and wheels.
Hope this clarifies.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 6:16 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: How the Prius Works
I know the prius system is not about mechanical friction slip. try to
generalize the concept of a clutch beyond specific products and realize I am
right to include a magnetic clutch or even one based on control of a diff...
Rich Rudman wrote:
> Wait you Mush heads ..
>
> The Yota Torque split device...
>
> is basicly a Differential that has a Engine and two motors to divide
> the torque and the electrical power up in any way needed.
> All the variable math is done with the BLDC vector drive motors.
>
> NO clutches... no sliping of anything mechanical.
>
> Take a open differential... lock one wheel.. the other goes 2x the
> speed it was going.. let the locked wheel spin.. at what ever speed you
want it to..
> taking or adding torque via a 4 quadrant motor.. Add back in the
> negative torque to the output shaft... and you can have just about any
> ratio you need to move the car attached to the last wheel... You get
mechanical torque..
> and added power from the Batteries..and the Amp path from the alternator.
>
> It looks aLOT like a planetary Automatic transmission. With motors
> attached to the output shaft and the planetary cluster.
>
> Cool stuff and about 1/2 as complicated as I used to think.
>
> Madman
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 7:27 PM
> Subject: Re: How the Prius Works
>
>
>
>> so you can't generalize. no biggie.
>> I think it's a bad design because it's a complicated way to make a
>> gas car look like an EV
>>
>> TrotFox Greyfoot wrote:
>>
>>> Um dude. It's not a clutch. A clutch is a friction based mechanical
>>> disconnect. The Prius has an electronic torque converter if you
>>> want to call it anything other than a CVT.
>>>
>>> BTW, it's a CVT. I'd actually like to know why you think it's a bad
>>> design but seeing as it's in an ICE car, please tell me offline.
>>>
>>> I seriously doubt you're going to be asked for any autographs. Just
>>> my hunch though...
>>>
>>> Trot, the fairly-technical, fox...
>>>
>>> On 6/13/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Danny Miller wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> No, the CVT is a proper transmission and can carry the full HP of
>>>>> the engine to the wheels.
>>>>> There is only one electric motor/generator. Actually there's a
>>>>>
> second
>
>>>>> motor for engine starting and providing countertorque for the CVT
>>>>>
>>>> think about it
>>>> it is the variable component deciding the grip from the motor to
>>>> the wheels..
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> no autographs please :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No.
In my country we have a joke, it is about a man driving
on the freeway when he hears a traffic warning message on
the radio: watch out, there is a report of a wrong way driver.
"What!" the man exclaims, "Not one, I see hundreds of them!"
I dare you to answer the questions in my post.
If you really want, you can send them to me.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 5:50 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: How the Prius Works
Did it ever occur to you that I was not the one in error
Cor van de Water skrev:
> Dan,
>
> Did it ever occur to you that almost every reply you receive starts
> with "NO", after you make a statement?
>
> In case you want to alter this, I suggest that you read up on a
> subject before commenting, because it tells a lot about a person when
> he is continuously corrected for making false statements. Let me make
> it obvious: Nobody believes you if all the long time senior members
> either do not take the effort to reply to your posts (because you have
> shown an attitude that you do not want to learn from the info on this
> list) and others are constantly correcting the wrong data you are
> spreading.
>
> Now a very honest question:
> Why are you on this list?
>
> Are you trying to learn? Your attitude says no.
> Are you trying to share knowledge? The corrections tell otherwise.
> Are you trying to share your attitude? This list only exists by enough
> people not having one that gets in the way all the time.
>
> Many people on this list have studied the Prius intricate workings and
> the genius construction in many unique new techniques, leading to it
> being the highest mileage car that you can buy today in the USA and it
> has sold almost a million units already.
> So, your statement "why bother, it is just another plain ICE"
> shows a total lack of what the Prius has established and how it is a
> great way to make everyone aware of how electric drive works well in a
> car, even though it is currently fully fueled from gasoline.
>
> Now, if your intention on this list is to stir as much as possible
> controversy, then I think you are doing a wonderful job.
> People like that are usually quickly recognised and categorised as
> troll, after which everyone, except the inexperienced, will ignore the
> troll.
>
> Where do you stand?
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 1:16 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: How the Prius Works
>
> (-Phil-) wrote:
>
>> Just to clarify, the Prius doesn't have a separate CVT. The CVT *is*
>> the motor/generators!
>> By shuffling power between the 2 motor/gens you effectively have a
>> CVT. It's a totally ingenious system!
>>
> aside from the fact that the end result is an expensive ICE car and
> not an EV. it's effectively an electric clutch. the design will not
> survive and should never have been. if one was conspiratorially
> inclined (and one is) one might be suspicious that they intentionally
> chose a bad design because it could give the illusion of being
> environmentally friendly while still remaining a pure ICE car.
>
>
>> The motor/gens are surprisingly small and oil cooled. They have high
>> voltage windings on them. The voltage used is 500v which comes from
>> a bi-directional DC-DC converter as the battery is only a little more
>> than 200v. The inverter box under the hood contains this DC-DC
>> converter, a smaller DC-DC converter to keep the aux 12v battery
>> charged, and 3 IGBT based inverters. 2 larger ones for the 2
>> motor/gens and 1 small one for the electric AC compressor.
>>
>>
> high voltage does appear to be the key. amps are bad
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff> You can find a lot on the web about the power split Prius design
Jeff> and operation. Here's one
Jeff> http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-technical-info
Sorta makes you wonder if you could replace the ICE with more batteries or
another motor + some extra batteries.
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There has to be a clutch in there somewhere. Otherwise there would be
constant pressure on the engine to turn over. Looking at the picture it
looks like there is some sort of clutch attached between the PSD shaft
and the engine. That would make sense if it was that way. Then the
engine PSD shaft could turn freely and when the system wants to start
the engine all it has to do is engage the clutch for a second or two and
disengage again. Then when it is ready to take the power to move the
vehicle it can engage again and start to develop torque to move the car.
It is my understanding that the engine will never be on when the car is
at a stop. That is why the car failed the georgia emissions test.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 12:36
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: How the Prius Works
Generally a clutch is understood to be some kind of friction coupling to
make or break the link between engine and wheels.
In the Prius the engine is always connected to the wheels via the torque
split device. Still the engine can run while the car is at standstill
and the car can move while the engine is at 0 RPM, because the torque
split device resembles a differential, with the wheels at one output and
a motor/ generator at the other output.
By spinning the motor at the proper speed, the wheels can be standstill
while the engine runs.
Spinning it in reverse direction, the engine can be standstill while the
wheels are turning.
Really genius.
Certainly not a clutch, as there are only sprockets and a chain between
engine, motors and wheels.
Hope this clarifies.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dan Frederiksen
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 6:16 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: How the Prius Works
I know the prius system is not about mechanical friction slip. try to
generalize the concept of a clutch beyond specific products and realize
I am right to include a magnetic clutch or even one based on control of
a diff...
Rich Rudman wrote:
> Wait you Mush heads ..
>
> The Yota Torque split device...
>
> is basicly a Differential that has a Engine and two motors to divide
> the torque and the electrical power up in any way needed.
> All the variable math is done with the BLDC vector drive motors.
>
> NO clutches... no sliping of anything mechanical.
>
> Take a open differential... lock one wheel.. the other goes 2x the
> speed it was going.. let the locked wheel spin.. at what ever speed
> you
want it to..
> taking or adding torque via a 4 quadrant motor.. Add back in the
> negative torque to the output shaft... and you can have just about any
> ratio you need to move the car attached to the last wheel... You get
mechanical torque..
> and added power from the Batteries..and the Amp path from the
alternator.
>
> It looks aLOT like a planetary Automatic transmission. With motors
> attached to the output shaft and the planetary cluster.
>
> Cool stuff and about 1/2 as complicated as I used to think.
>
> Madman
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2007 7:27 PM
> Subject: Re: How the Prius Works
>
>
>
>> so you can't generalize. no biggie.
>> I think it's a bad design because it's a complicated way to make a
>> gas car look like an EV
>>
>> TrotFox Greyfoot wrote:
>>
>>> Um dude. It's not a clutch. A clutch is a friction based mechanical
>>> disconnect. The Prius has an electronic torque converter if you
>>> want to call it anything other than a CVT.
>>>
>>> BTW, it's a CVT. I'd actually like to know why you think it's a bad
>>> design but seeing as it's in an ICE car, please tell me offline.
>>>
>>> I seriously doubt you're going to be asked for any autographs. Just
>>> my hunch though...
>>>
>>> Trot, the fairly-technical, fox...
>>>
>>> On 6/13/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Danny Miller wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> No, the CVT is a proper transmission and can carry the full HP of
>>>>> the engine to the wheels.
>>>>> There is only one electric motor/generator. Actually there's a
>>>>>
> second
>
>>>>> motor for engine starting and providing countertorque for the CVT
>>>>>
>>>> think about it
>>>> it is the variable component deciding the grip from the motor to
>>>> the wheels..
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> no autographs please :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Catch the analogy: A women is married to a guy. This man is revealed to
be a massmurder and rapist. They divorce. Women keeps the name and get's
married to a new decent guy. This Mrs massmurderer gets a child with the
new guy and the son get's the last name of the massmurderer due moms name.
How long has the small boy to live with the name of know murderer ? Why
he has to carry the burden ?
I'm referring to the fact that the TS has kept its name but the
ownerships and resources are quite different from the screwups.
Currently there is still one problem. Cells are sold witout BMS to any
customer who wan't to buy. And nearly as many cells get broken by the
ignorant users. And claim cells being bad.
Nowadays all cells are tested and data logged to DBs. So we know what
was the cell condition before it leaves the factory. No DOAs should be
possible. But ofcourse.. anything can happen during transport.
Do you really think that changing the name would solve this issue ? We
just might do that. But seriously. I wish there would be another way to
gat around this. New cells ?
How about if you then send me the complete list of broken cells ? I know
Victor and Lee got some. Who else ?
-Jukka
Peter VanDerWal kirjoitti:
Peter. That's YEARS ago ! Since then has a lot happened. And we are
TRULY trying to bring this all up to western biz standards.
Sure, but reputations last forever. They had an opportunity to fix their
reputation and decided not to, that's a pretty clear indication of their
coporate strategy.
If they want to fix their reputation, then they should give refunds or
free cells to the people they screwed.
A company that is comfortable with screwing their customers is not a
company I want to deal with.
The newest cells are not even comparable with the old ones. They are
good. But still require the BMS.
The engineers in here did not accept the deal to sell old stock. That
decision came from investors with hard push. There was so much money
sitting on the cells at that time. Thay had to sell. I remember seeing
1 000 000 pcs of 10 Ah LiCo cells which were also gone old. They were
luckily scrapped and recycled.
I've tried to do all I can to get those old cells back and swapped but
it has not been possible yet. I have not yet given it up. There is not
so many bad cells out anyway.
As some of you might know we are building TS battery factory in Finland
too. Aim is to have fully automated factory with the highest quality
control available.
Input to the factory is raw materials. Output is battery systems with
integrated EVerything. Chargers, BMS, CPUs, DC/DCs... All you need to
run an EV. After that pack you just need a AC motor and controller. And
ofcourse the donor. Beta testers are already driving these packs and
feedback has not been bad I would say. Online remote diagnostics tells
us about problems before they occur.
Pressure is high since China is hoping to put tens of thousands of EVs
on their roads as soon as possible. Buses, delivery vans, cabs... They
invest $1 billion annually to get the EVs done.
Affordable Lion battery packs as turn key solution to EVerybody. This is
my dream and it just might happen. For sure it will happen but not
perhaps exactly as I have seen it. Biz is bis and hobby is hobby...what
can I say.
-Jukka
Peter VanDerWal kirjoitti:
You must be referring to Thunder Sky batteries? Has anyone actually
cycle
tested these batteries and reported the results? I would not go by
their
information posted. I would want to see a test with the C rate needed
for
an EV?
A bunch of folks on the list got together several years back and
purchased
a bunch of the Thundersky batteries. They performed poorly, lots of sag
and you could only pull the rated AH at low currents.
Apparently this was because thundersky sold them some old, defective
batteries they had lying around. They knew they were bad, but sold them
anyway. Supposedly they have improved their manufacturig since,
however,
I wouldn't trust them to have improved their bussiness practices.
Buying from them is a crap shoot. Worse yet, if you do get a bad batch,
they won't stand behind their product. Personally it's not a gamble I'm
comfortable with.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think it would be easier just to replace the battery pack with the one
from Tesla Motors. Just make sure it is 273.6 volts. Maybe if someone
hacked the computer in the Synergy drive to stay on the battery pack
longer it would help also. I believe someone did that with the plug in
hybrid conversion. They added a secondary pack to the original one,
mounted where the spare tire was, and then a computer module to fool the
synergy computer to stay on the pack longer.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 12:44
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: How the Prius Works
Jeff> You can find a lot on the web about the power split Prius
design
Jeff> and operation. Here's one
Jeff> http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-technical-info
Sorta makes you wonder if you could replace the ICE with more batteries
or another motor + some extra batteries.
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's just the case Victor. You remember who organized the sales at
this end during 2003 ? No more working in the company.
Winston is quite proud of his batteries and he stands behind them. He
knows the difference between Amps and Amphours ;)
The demand is so high at the domestic (China) markets so issues with
dealing foreign customers are left to others. But since my customers are
also outside China I would like to get this thing solved once and for
all. I hate the rep due just poor handling.
But... do I have to assume that nothing should be done anymore ? The
case is cold already ? Tell me I'm wrong.
-Jukka
Victor Tikhonov kirjoitti:
Rich,
How many did you test?
Would you buy 500 tomorrow (as I did back in 2003)?
Problem is (as least was) you buy 100 cells from TS directly,
75 comply with the spec, 20 don't. 3 are DOA and 2 die in a week
for no apparent reason not even being put in service.
No doubt TS can produce very good Li battery. Question is
if they can produce very good battery after battery after battery...
Jukka as dealing with TS, probably knows more about consistency
of their production. But TS reputation has been compromised and it's
tough to convince people that now everything is OK and different.
They can promise all they want, and publish any data. I did test
two initial good cells which complied with the spec before
decided to buy more - you know what happened.
Makes NO difference if that was manganese cells and not they are
cobalt, or phosphate or whatever. It's the company culture that's
the problem. Cells design changes, but minds of people ruling
the company - unlikely.
It has to be real proof that in general product worth considering.
Not one cell tests.
Victor
Rich Rudman wrote:
-Jukka
Peter VanDerWal kirjoitti:
You must be referring to Thunder Sky batteries? Has anyone actually
cycle
tested these batteries and reported the results? I would not go by
their
information posted. I would want to see a test with the C rate needed
for
an EV?
Jukka.. Peter..
Listers...
RE: Thunder-sky
Tested..
Met thier posted specs...
I am impressed. They work as advertised.
I have collected a charge and discharge cycle that is exactly what they
graph on the Thunder-Sky site.
The 1 C rate is verifiable.
They are NOT a EV racer's battery.. 3C is all you want to take them
to. They
won't be in any dragster of mine.
But they have real possibilities for PHEV and Range class EV projects.
The Bet??
Well it's a safe one as far as I can tell. I have a few mega Bytes of
data
on that subject right now.
Rich Rudman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manzanita Micro
360-297-7383,
Cell 360-620-6266
Production shop 360-297-1660
FAX at Metal shop 1-360-297-3311
--- End Message ---
