EV Digest 6900
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV CVT (Was: How the Prius Works)
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: full size truck conversion
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: EV achilles' heel
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV achilles' heel
by "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV achilles' heel
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Chorusmotors.com
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: How the Prius Works
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Dumb question time
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV achilles' heel
by "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10)
by "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
by "Brandon Kruger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12)
by "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) DMV in PA
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Over-volted ADC: Warranty issue
by "Ev Performance (Robert Chew)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV achilles' heel - Trailer thoughts
by jukka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) long range EV MC, Re: Oh No... Another Newbie...
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EV achilles' heel - Trailer thoughts
by jukka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Chorusmotors.com
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: TS cell exchange... WAS:Re: New Subscriber
by jukka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: New Zillch Controller
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, 3-legged Diodes are very common. (2 diodes per package back to
back) =)
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "TrotFox Greyfoot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: EV CVT (Was: How the Prius Works)
Ah. Planetary gear. Please note that I am a technician. When you
tell me the worm gear is not needed I go looking for a worm gear which
is very certainly not a planetary gear. Mucho differences there and I
would not have known that you were talking about the one while using
the other's name.
Like asking me to replace the 3-legged diode on a PCB.
Trot, the technically-minded, fox...
On 6/14/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
planet, worm, worm, planet. no biggie :)
little gears we don't need
--
| /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember,
| ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a
| >\_/< [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think with a battery pack and a reasonable EV, 190kw is excessive. Maybe
up hill and accel, yes, but that's what the huge battery buffer is for.
30kw would probably do a great job for most EV's.
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: full size truck conversion
Assuming you don't have huge ammounts of money sitting around...commonly
available motors and generators are going to be 80%-90% efficient.
Towing a trailer requires lots of power, towing up hill requies HUGE
ammounts of power.
For simplicities sake, let's assume we only need 200 hp (at the wheels) to
tow uphill. Let's also assume we are using the more affordable 80% eff
motors/generators (this way we can keep the project under $100,000).
So 200 hp at the wheels requires about 190KW input power to the
motor/controller. To generate 190kw requires about 320 hp mechanical
input to the generator.
So instead of needing a 200 hp motor we need a 320 hp motor, plus huge
generator and a huge electric motor.
Normal hybrids would use a smaller motor/generator and get the extra power
from batteries. This would work if you never had to climb a hill that
took longer than about 5 minutes to get to the top, and didn't need to
climb another hill for at least and hour or two. That's a pretty rare
circumstance if you are towing any distance.
The Army had a hybrid Hummer developer back in the 90s. It made a lot of
improvements over the normal hummer, better mileage, power, etc.
It also used $150,000 worth of high efficiency motors/generators, and it
weighed so much that it only had enough cargo capacity left for a couple
soldiers and their personal gear. It had virtually no towing capacity.
Stuart, Peter and the group,
Given the weight problem of batteries as the sole source of power for a
pickup truck, what about a diesel-electric generator + batteries as a
power source? (Basically a diesel hybrid) I know that Toyota/Hino have
been operating light trucks in Japan with this power train starting in
2001. All I get is a stone wall when I ask Toyota/Hino about them.
My real question is:
Would a diesel-electric hybrid truck along the lines of a 1/2 or 3/4 ton
pickup be feasible as a tow vehicle for a travel trailer?
J.J. Hayden
Long time lurker
J.J. Hayden
http://home.earthlink.net/~jjhayden
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>2) is there any reason you can't voluntarily buy and install a catalytic
>converter/quiet exhaust?
In the USA, if you do not go through the proper FTP certification and
emissions deterioration testing and get the proper EPA or CARB paperwork,
yes, there is a very good reason. $25,000 fine per engine is a possibility.
If you're driving down the road with it, no longer are you in the SORE or
LSI gen-set emissions class, but rather, a road-going vehicle class with
a different test and different emissions requirements. Just slapping a
catalyst on it does not make it 'clean' either as I've mentioned earlier.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is the Genset trailer at it's finest:
http://www.evnut.com/rav_longranger.htm
It's a 500c Kawasaki M/C engine with Fuel Injection, A Cat, and other misc
emission controls such as Evaporative control.
It even steers automatically when you reverse to keep it from jackknifing!
-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 4:11 PM
Subject: RE: EV achilles' heel
ed.cooley wrote:
1) does anyone actually have a generator on their vehicle,
and know how loud it is?
or is it all conjecture? "it must be noisy, and I don't like
the idea, so you must be crazy since I'm an environmentalist
(and I'm right)..." is hardly a valid argument.
The remark regarding noise is based on statements posted to this list in
past years by people who have tried it.
I believe Rich Rudman had a genset cart based on a Metro engine (and
aircraft starter/generator head?) that was described as "shaking itself
apart in use".
I'm aware of only a few people on the list using genset-type range
extenders:
- Dave 'battery boy' Hawkins (IIRC), in Colorado (genset in back of
pickup, I think)
- Alain St-Yves (whose "vehicule vert" webiste you reference), in
Quebec, not Ontario. Also using a homemade genset in the bed of the
truck. 11HP Honda engine driving a 7.5HP induction generator. The
combo delivers a steady 4.5kW and with respect to noise, Alain suggests
one might throttle it back when crossing a town or city and crank it
back up on the way out of town.
- Doug Hartley, also in Quebec, who I believe uses (and sells?) range
extender gensets based on a BLDC generator head.
Renting is problematic, as I don't want to have to deal
with the paperwork, hassle of picking one up - (and how
do I get there? and do I want to leave my precious EV
there over the weekend?) every time I go visit family.
This is true. Public transit, taxi, or a lift from a friend are all
possible solutions, though all still have varying degrees of
inconvenience.
Actually, providing the genset with routine maintenance, hooking it up
to the EV, and perhaps dropping it into the bed of the truck before each
long trip and pulling it back out afterwards are all greater
inconvenience than simply hopping in a second car for the occasional
longer trips, so I suppose it is all a matter of how much, and what type
of, inconvenience you are willing to tolerate.
It will certainly vary depending on the laws, etc. where one lives, but
for me renting a vehicle for occasional long trips is by far the
cheapest route. If I keep a second car, then I either need to keep it
insured all year, in addition to the EV, at a cost of $1000 or so, or I
have the inconvenience of needing to purchase temporary insurance just
before each trip (and then paying a premium for that, as short term
insurance costs more per day than insuring for a year at a time).
Either way, I have the inconvenience of taking the vehicle through
emission testing and having it take up space in my driveway or garage
most of the time.
The advantage of renting is that (except perhaps with Rent-a-Wreck ;^)
one always has a new, low mileage car to drive (newer by a long shot
than any car I've ever owned! ;)
Around here, trailers need to be registered/insured, and while that cost
is probably minimal compared to insuring a car, it still means a range
extender trailer may be costing you money the entire year whether used
or not.
A trailer has the disadvantage for me that the most likely use I'd have
for it is to allow my EV to make it to my in-laws, but that involves a
ferry ride and there's a hefty fare premium with a trailer. I'd go for
the onboard approach, but since my EV is a [small] car my thought was to
put the genset into a roof-mounted luggage 'pod'. These thoughts
occurred before I had the EV on the road; now that its on the road, I've
pretty much dismissed the idea of a genset range extender.
If you are seriously considering using a range extender to allow driving
non-stop for hours, something to consider when building your EV is to
'over-size' the motor relative to what EVers normally use. For example,
at 144V an ADC 9" is rated for 28.5HP continuous, 30.4HP for 1hr and
48.8HP for 5min, etc. In the case of something like a pickup conversion
you might easily be operating the motor somewhere between the continuous
and 1hr ratings at highway speeds. For pure EVs, we typically run out
of juice in little enough time that we can run our motors [well] above
their continuous (or even 1hr ratings) without harm, but if you add a
range extender to allow driving for 2hrs+ at a time on the highway you
might get into trouble if the terrain is hilly or the speeds highish,
etc.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nothing has been produced yet in a commercial quantities. I am not even
sure if a test batch has performed to claimed efficiency.
Still very much r & D in my opinion.
But I hope they work.
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 1:47 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Peltiers...
I've heard of some new chips "coolchips" - but don't have any idea
when,
or if they'll be available.
http://www.coolchips.gi/
They're supposed to be way more efficient that peltiers.... but no word
on
an actual product for sale yet...
Ed Cooley
Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
06/14/2007 06:59
Please respond to
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To
Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
cc
Subject
Re: EV achilles' heel
The point of a pusher trailer is to avoid the extra conversion because
every conversion costs.
1)ICE -25%->shaft-->alterntor-75%->controller-90%->motor-90%->wheels
|
-->charger-90%->battery-->controller-90%->motor-90%->wheels
2)
3) ICE-25%->shaft-80%->wheels
1 is .25*.75*.9*.9 = 15% efficient
2 is .25*.75*.9*.9*.9 = 13% efficient
3 is .25+.8 = 20% efficient
The real point here is how to capture the 75% initially lost to heat in
the ICE!
Better Peltiers could recover some.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would be interested to hear opinions from list members about the
patents from this company.
Www.chorusmotors.com
They list their patents on the website.
They drive the motor winding differently to get more torque from a
smaller electric motor.
They have devices being built and are also testing applications in the
airline industry.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Kerry just mentioned a massuchusetts company a123 doing lithium
addons to priuss on cspan today.
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 5:06 pm, Danny Miller wrote:
Well, I'm sure you've heard there are Prius modifications that put a
big li-ion in the trunk and you can get a moderate amount of EV range
out of it. I'm not sure if they completely disable the ICE or if it
still runs it when you have a lot of throttle input. Currently quite
expensive.
They keep calling it the "250 mpg hybrid" on the idea that you might
charge it at home and do 3/4 of your driving from this batt. It is
misleading in that you cannot make a 1000 mi trip on 4 gal of gas.
The Prius is of course a pretty light vehicle, not even capable of
towing except perhaps for a very very light trailer. It can't carry a
whole lot of batts but the li-ion is not all that heavy.
Danny
Michael Wendell wrote:
Jeff> You can find a lot on the web about the power split Prius design
Jeff> and operation. Here's one
Jeff> http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-technical-info
Skip> Sorta makes you wonder if you could replace the ICE with more
skip> batteries or another motor + some extra batteries.
i've been wondering the exact same thing today.
if, as someone said earlier, the prius will run 11 miles on batteries
alone, we know that the motor has enough power to run the car. why not
remove the ICE and replace it with an equal weight in batteries?
surely someone could design a battery pack that would replace the ICE
and be able to work in conjunction with the existing pack to increase
the overall range to 30 miles or more.
has anyone tried building a pure BEV honda insight? can the insight's
supplemental motor move the car on its own?
m.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As Dave will probably correct, the more proper place to refer people to the
EVDL list is here:
http://www.evdl.org/
Although currently, the previous location also seems to work.
----- Original Message -----
From: David Wilker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thursday, June 14, 2007 3:43 pm
Subject: RE: Dumb question time
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Cc: David S <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Mil graci
>
>
> David C. Wilker Jr.
> USAF (RET)
>
> ---- David S <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
>
> To subscribe:
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Wilker
> Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 5:50 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Dumb question time
>
> I have a student that would like to subscribe to the list, but I
> don't remember how. Thanks.--
>
>
> David C. Wilker Jr.
> USAF (RET)
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dale, have you got the wording handy? Is it no longer a gen-set when you
toss it in the back of the vehicle? If you start it while it's sitting in
the bed of an S10? When you connect it to the vehicle? When the vehicle
starts to move (legal while parked off the pavement)? If the Vehicle needs
it to move (thus an integral part of the vehicle)? Because the EV itself is
no longer an EV and loses it's exclusions?
If it's on a trailer, what year emissions specs would it have to meet, those
of the trailer, the towing vehicle, or the motor powering the generator?
I'm assuming you're not saying you can't add a converter to a generator that
did not require one in general, you're saying when the generator becomes
part of the EV, then it's not a stand alone generator anymore?
In my case, the glider is a 1978 Jeep, and the generator would be on a
trailor.
On a related note, if you took an emissions legal engine, all emissions gear
intact, and ran a generator with it, would that be legal, or is it only
certified with it's original drivetrain? Isn't the trans part of the
certified package?
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 4:40 PM
Subject: RE: EV achilles' heel
>2) is there any reason you can't voluntarily buy and install a catalytic
converter/quiet exhaust?
In the USA, if you do not go through the proper FTP certification and
emissions deterioration testing and get the proper EPA or CARB paperwork,
yes, there is a very good reason. $25,000 fine per engine is a
possibility.
If you're driving down the road with it, no longer are you in the SORE or
LSI gen-set emissions class, but rather, a road-going vehicle class with
a different test and different emissions requirements. Just slapping a
catalyst on it does not make it 'clean' either as I've mentioned earlier.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
set ev mail digest
query ev
end
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
DOH! didn't think to look before i posted
*slaps forehead*
On 6/14/07, Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hmmmm - that is a helpful idea,
or is it?
Did you check Dan's email address ;-)
(it is in the first line under your response... :D
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brandon Kruger
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 7:31 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Sorry to Dan and the list
Maybe you should use gmail. Better search and conversation view, so you can
see every post on the specified topic.
Brandon Kruger
http://bmk789.dyndns.org/ev/
http://cafepress.com/altfuel
On 6/14/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'll be blunt to save time. an email based forum is quite retarded. it
> lacks the structure a web forum can provide so not every post has to
> be a complete record of all that went before. it lacks the features
> like embedded pictures. potentially better search. an always available
> record no 1 hour gray filter delays in posts.. etc
>
> mailing list is legacy concept and the proponents stagnant.
>
> Dan
>
> TrotFox Greyfoot wrote:
> > Disagreed. The only reason I keep up with this list is that it's in
> > Email format. I prefer it just the way it is. If I'd wanted to use
> > a forum I would have went looking for an EV forum. If You want to
> > use a forum, go find one.
> >
> > I'm sure others will agree with me although I do recognize that some
> > will want to surf to it.
> >
> > Trot, the opinionated, fox...
> >
> > On 6/14/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> stating the obvious, this should be a webbased forum can someone
> >> set that up?
> >>
> >> it should also be augmented with live (logged) chat and there is a
> >> newly formed irc channel #EV on freenode.net should anyone be
intererested.
> >>
> >> Dan
> >
>
>
--
--
Brandon Kruger
http://bmk789.dyndns.org/ev/
http://cafepress.com/altfuel
--- End Message ---
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thanks
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--- Begin Message ---
Since I promised I'd talk about it, the problems are
1) to get the California title (branded Salvage, not a certificate of
slavage but a real title) ported to PA I had to trust that the
reconstructed vehicle folks would get it right. A phone call told me,
after some explanation, that it was at least workable, assumign whoever
examined it checks their book of title classifications from other states
(the word "salvage" does not automatically mean it's a certificate of
salvage... it's a real title. really.)
2) you have to go through inspection, once to get the mv100 filled out,
and then again after you're approved, to get a sticker. i figured this
would be easy. my father is a state inspector. his employer was not
willing to take the liability, so, wrong. apparently a lot of places
aren't interested in the liability
3) and then there's the insurance question, though that was going to be a
pain more than a real problem.
in the meantime, i ran out of money, so probably i have to sell the car,
which is currently sans batteries but otherwise still roadworthy, and
garagae kept since i got it.
life's hard, oh well.
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about 20 000 eur with labor already included. BMW is not yet finished
but I believe it will not be the one with most range.
-Jukka
Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti:
how much did your longest ranging ev cost?
jukka wrote:
Right. I choose the car according the need. If I need 200 miles I take
the 200 mile car from the garage. That's as easy as that.
Just out of curiosity I put 300 kg of lead acids as extra weight to
trailer and drove 200 km with one charge. Now If I would have had
there Lions too and connected to the drivesystem, I would have
achieved 400-450 km range with the Berlingo.
I do not know about you but after that kind of trip I really need to
get some rest and sleep. That's nearly 6 hours of continous driving.
That is already extreme.
If the EV should do the 500 km every freaking day it has to be
specially designed for the job.
Clearly the case is that if you need ICE range and instant fueling
forget EVs for now. It just isn't the right tool for the job.
-Jukka
Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti:
you are just being silly :) and wrong
rather than a range extender you would rather just drive your ev?? :
) why didn't I think of that. that's brilliant
jukka wrote:
Com'on man. I'd rather swallow razor blades than destroy the whole
EV concept with smelly ICE.
I rather drive my EVs all around and then rent a Ferrari for a week
with the saved money every year.
I'll be the guy passing with Italian horses while you murder the
small ice with overrevs.. eh eh ehee hhee.. °°°! (Am I out of line?
hope so :)
-Jukka
Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti:
no. small onboard ice gen for use only when batteries are flat.
jukka wrote:
How about a small trailer with even a bit of room for ballast ?
I was plannig to make a trailer with Lions under the floor. And a
nice small cover for the extra luggage.
The trailer would be an independent unit with charger and etc. You
drive with it a distance (say 80 miles) then you leave it for
charging some where and continue without it or you can just keep
dragging it along untile reached the destiation. You could still
use the oh-so-old lead in the car for comfort.
A small trailer could sell for 5000-8000 USD. Or how about If few
would be made and rented for testing ? Or a EV chapter aquire one
and folks can use it when needed. 1 week annually each member.
-Jukka
Michael Wendell kirjoitti:
I've considered a veggie oil diesel or a propane generator
given that the tesla roadster motor makes 170kWh shouldn't
30Kw generation be possible in a reasonably sized generator.
didn't we just spend more than a month discussing the
innefficiencies of an
onboard (or trailered) generator? is it possible to put this
information in
the FAQ somewhere and point all future discussions to that URL?
m.
Michael Wendell
Speedgoat Bicycles
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Win a $5000 custom mountain bike, and help fight breat cancer!
http://www.speedgoat.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Loni and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Oh No... Another Newbie...
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 16:31:00 -0700
>Hi all,
>
>I posted this earlier under an inapplicable subject line.
>Forgive a newbie who's still wrapping his head around EV
>concepts and culture. My expertise is ICE automotive repair
>, maintanence, and customization, but I've recently
>developed a great deal of interest in EVs. Over the years
>I've grown increasingly disgusted by all things petrol and
>am looking for a new direction for my company.
Once you look at EV's, it's really a no brainer. And
as there is almost no EV's on the market, the field is wide
open and lots of profit for those with the right product.
Good EV's are sold very fast now in just a few days most
times.
I'm currently doing a 3wh composite sportwagon EV so
know the joys of putting an EV into production ;^p.
>
>After comparing the (disappointing) products available in
>the two-wheeled EV world (I have to include Electric
>Motorsports in this assessment) with the capabilities of
>killacycle and others on the drag circuit, I have to ask if
>it's reasonable to pursue development of a
>scooter/motorcycle capable of 70+ mph, 100+ mile range,
>0-60 mph under 5 seconds, and a weight of under 450 lbs.
>Armor Electric, http://www.armorelectric.com/home.htm, is
>moving in the right direction, but I want to see better
>yet.
Yes it can but only if you have great aerodynamics,
otherwise air drag will suck your power quickly at speeds
over 30 mph. But with great aero, which means a full aero
cabin, you can get that range at that speed with Li batts.
If you do it right, you can get 50wthr/mile electric useage
so you would need about a 6-7.5kwhr pack for reliable 100
mile range with aero and not kill the batteries. Without
aero probably 300-450wthrs/mile at 70 mph!! So you by far
get more bang for the buck from aero mods.
I'd go different with 2-3 PM-123 motors Lawless' race
bike uses for higher eff, regen, even reverse and sevcon
controllers with a contactor bypass/turbo switch. If you can
go a little slower, 2 of them would do quite well anywhere
but the dragstrip. If not a 6.7" motor like Bill Dube uses
will do well. Sevcon does all kinds of controllers that
might work for you.
Also I doubt there will be enough Zilla's produced to
supply a production run of any size.
Few bikes or other built as EV's use transmissions as
they just don't need them so save the weight, cost, hassle.
Just Gates Polychain belt it from the motors' shafts to the
rear wheel.
I can easily see getting $25k for a bike like that!!
A ICE version using a BMW MC, called the Ecomobile I think,
as the base sells for $85k!!!
If we can help,let us know,
Jerry Dycus
>
>With M1 batteries (or similar) these seem like acceptable
>performance goals until I consider the difficulty of
>mass-producing a reliable American-build product for under
>$9,000 retail (above which I believe consumer interest will
>taper off abruptly). What component set would be required
>to meet those benchmarks? Or do they not currently exist?
>
>At this point I have visions of a 72-120V system with three
>packs of A123 Systems AHR32157M1HD (specs TBD), Zilla
>Z1K-LV and HB2, and a single pancake motor (source
>undecided) bolted to a CVT with belt final drive, although
>I'm intrigued by the possibility of a Brusa
>motor/controller combo. And what's the deal with Raser
>Technologies? Why no commercially available
>motor/controller package if the technology is so fantastic?
>
>Thoughts?
>
>Lon Hull
>Owner - Superstructure Industries LLC
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]@comcast.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh my god. Now you hit me with idea and perhaps the possible solution.
you all know hwo easy it is a rent a genset from a tool rental ? I've
been asked to make some battery trailers with Lions and inverters to
these companies. How about.. IF.. the pack voltage could be matchable
with certain setups. Hmm. You could rent the genset for few days to
complete the trip and return it with empty cells. Direct DC output.
at least 80% of the usage would be genset use or say people who wish to
use nailguns etc without noise at their summer cottages. More payers for
the system.
Can anyone see if there's even remote chance to succeed .. ??
This might not be a solution to all countries. Different needs and
culutres..
-Jukka
Sam Maynard kirjoitti:
I agree with Jukka that a fully on-board PHEV is a compromised EV when
in all-electric drive mode. Until the magic batteries and quick charge
infrastructure are available, detachable ICE (range extender trailer)
seems an attractive option. Configure it properly, and you also have a
utility generator trailer with 120/240 AC wherever you go, as well as
extra space for hauling tools and toys.
A good concept can be undermined by improper configuration. Also,
meticulous engineering on a lame concept is just polishing a turd.
There is no way an ICE gen trailer powering an EV will be as energy
efficient as an economical ICE-only vehicle, but it if you don't take
long trips often, it may be more efficient than owning, insuring, and
registering 2 completely separate vehicles. One thing you can do to cut
your energy efficiency losses is sizing the gen more modestly so you're
not hauling around alot of extra gen weight, but large enough to give
you 2-4 hours of highway time. If you know what the average kW draw of
your EV is at highway speed, size the gen for that. By the time you
add the weight and drag of the trailer, it will be a little underpowered
for continuous highway travel, but not overweight. Use the batteries as
an energy buffer, and plan on stopping every 2-4 hours, not to top off
the battery pack, just to get to 80%.
Remembering that the source electricity for even a fully plug-in EV may
be coal, hydro, solar, wind, nuke, etc, it's fair to consider the source
of fuel when producing the electricity onboard the vehicle (trailer).
I've had positive experience with SVO (straight vegetable oil) to power
a not-very-smelly ICE car. For now it seems a decent candidate fuel for
producing portable electricity.
----- Original Message ----- From: "jukka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: EV achilles' heel - Trailer thoughts
Right. I choose the car according the need. If I need 200 miles I take
the 200 mile car from the garage. That's as easy as that.
Just out of curiosity I put 300 kg of lead acids as extra weight to
trailer and drove 200 km with one charge. Now If I would have had
there Lions too and connected to the drivesystem, I would have
achieved 400-450 km range with the Berlingo.
I do not know about you but after that kind of trip I really need to
get some rest and sleep. That's nearly 6 hours of continous driving.
That is already extreme.
If the EV should do the 500 km every freaking day it has to be
specially designed for the job.
Clearly the case is that if you need ICE range and instant fueling
forget EVs for now. It just isn't the right tool for the job.
-Jukka
Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti:
you are just being silly :) and wrong
rather than a range extender you would rather just drive your ev?? :
) why didn't I think of that. that's brilliant
jukka wrote:
Com'on man. I'd rather swallow razor blades than destroy the whole
EV concept with smelly ICE.
I rather drive my EVs all around and then rent a Ferrari for a week
with the saved money every year.
I'll be the guy passing with Italian horses while you murder the
small ice with overrevs.. eh eh ehee hhee.. °°°! (Am I out of line?
hope so :)
-Jukka
Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti:
no. small onboard ice gen for use only when batteries are flat.
jukka wrote:
How about a small trailer with even a bit of room for ballast ?
I was plannig to make a trailer with Lions under the floor. And a
nice small cover for the extra luggage.
The trailer would be an independent unit with charger and etc. You
drive with it a distance (say 80 miles) then you leave it for
charging some where and continue without it or you can just keep
dragging it along untile reached the destiation. You could still
use the oh-so-old lead in the car for comfort.
A small trailer could sell for 5000-8000 USD. Or how about If few
would be made and rented for testing ? Or a EV chapter aquire one
and folks can use it when needed. 1 week annually each member.
-Jukka
Michael Wendell kirjoitti:
I've considered a veggie oil diesel or a propane generator
given that the tesla roadster motor makes 170kWh shouldn't
30Kw generation be possible in a reasonably sized generator.
didn't we just spend more than a month discussing the
innefficiencies of an
onboard (or trailered) generator? is it possible to put this
information in
the FAQ somewhere and point all future discussions to that URL?
m.
Michael Wendell
Speedgoat Bicycles
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Win a $5000 custom mountain bike, and help fight breat cancer!
http://www.speedgoat.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: GWMobile
> I would be interested to hear opinions from list members about the
> patents from this company.
> www.chorusmotors.com
It's a legitimate company, with a valid concept. They've been around for at
least 10 years. Fundamentally, they have worked out improved winding techniques
and inverter driving waveforms to improve on the traditional 3-phase AC motor.
A standard 3-phase motor is designed and optimized to run on perfect sinewaves.
But this is a very difficult waveform to produce efficiently with an inverter.
Normal brushed DC motors are polyphase motors; they have a much larger number
of phases than 3. By carefully positioning the armature windings, they have
designed motors that can run efficiently with square waves on each phase
winding. These square waves are easily produced by the commutator.
The chorus motor is an effort to find a compromise between these extremes;
complex inverter to get simple motor windings versus simple inverter but
complex motor windings. They add more phases (but not as many as a DC motor),
and let the inverter generate squarer waveforms (but not completely square
waves).
--
I would not waste my life in friction when it could be turned into momentum. --
Frances Willard
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The company is:
International Battery Inc.
81 N. Maple Avenue Ridgewood, NJ 07450
phone 210-444-3232
www.internationalbatteryinc.com
-Jukka
Paul kirjoitti:
On Jun 14, 2007, at 12:27 PM, jukka wrote:
I have to be clear here. Most of you are in states. I have no right to
sell stuff there. Thou I can give for free. :) There is a sole
distributorship and own battery factory in USA. It's an independent
company but has licensed the TS tech.
Are you able to give the name and contact info for this company? A web
site and/or product line info available for purchase in the U.S. would
be good too.
Having someone from the company on this list answering questions and not
ignoring the past problems is a good first step to repairing TS
reputation damage. Replacing defective past product would be another
positive step.
I didn't buy any of the original TS batteries but positive reports of
their current use would certainly influence future battery choices. I do
tend to listen to words from Lee Hart, Rich Rudman, John Lussmyer, and
any number of other experienced EVers.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am sorry, I have to disagree.
I like the list as an email. A single pastebin like site might be good
for reference.
This is a list I want to "read all" every day, It is fast simple and
takes less bandwidth as a text only list.
Sometimes I transfer to my phone and take it with me.
(And before you blast me, I am a software engineer, Just because a new
bandwidth sucking bell or whistle is avail, doesn't make it appropriate)
I have run 2 or 3 forums and I use forums. When there are thousands of
varied users occasionally there, or problem centric, they are most
appropriate.
When most listers want to view all every day, this is best.
KISS, kinda the EV motto.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have to dissagree with you Lori as I've been a customer of Electric
Motorsports & I have to say that Todds creations are very healthy. He EVen
sells Lepton Scooters which for a moped class vehicle is a very good deal
for the money.(It will carry my 250 pound body up just about any hill in San
Francisco. Just which product are you talking about? Todds motorcycles are
very robust. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: New Zillch Controller
> Hi all,
>
> Forgive a newbie who's still wrapping his head around EV concepts. My
> expertise is ICE automotive repair, maintanence, and customization, but
I've
> recently developed a great deal of interest in EVs. Over the years I've
> grown increasingly disgusted by all things petrol and am looking for a new
> direction for my company.
>
> After comparing the (disappointing) products available in the two-wheeled
EV
> world (I have to include Electric Motorsports in this assessment) with the
> capabilities of killacycle and others on the drag circuit, I have to ask
if
> it's reasonable to pursue development of a scooter/motorcycle capable of
70+
> mph, 100+ mile range, 0-60 mph under 5 seconds, and a weight of under 450
> lbs. Armor Electric, http://www.armorelectric.com/home.htm, is moving in
the
> right direction, but I want to see better yet.
>
> With M1 batteries (or similar) these seem like acceptable performance
goals
> until I consider the difficulty of mass-producing a reliable
American-build
> product for under $9,000 retail (above which I believe consumer interest
> will taper off abruptly). What component set would be required to meet
those
> benchmarks? Or do they not currently exist?
>
> At this point I have visions of a 72-120V system with three packs of A123
> Systems AHR32157M1HD (specs TBD), Zilla Z1K-LV and HB2, and a single
pancake
> motor (source undecided) bolted to a CVT with belt final drive, although
I'm
> intrigued by the possibility of a Brusa motor/controller combo. And what's
> the deal with Raser Technologies? Why no commercially available
> motor/controller package if the technology is so fantastic?
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Lon Hull
> Owner - Superstructure Industries LLC
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]@comcast.net
--- End Message ---
