EV Digest 6909
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) What happened when I went to cash in on my battery warrenty
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: BB600 ni-cads, Re: What batteries to try next?
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: BB600 ni-cads, Re: What batteries to try next?
by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Source for BB600
by "Thomas Brannan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Made the jump
by Dennis Foulke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: What happened when I went to cash in on my battery warrenty
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Motor backemf solved?
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Motor backemf solved?
by Cory Cross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Motor backemf solved?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Motor backemf solved?
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Dumb question time
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Source for BB600
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: What batteries to try next?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: TS cell exchange... WAS:Re: New Subscriber
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Peukert's Exponent
by Joseph Tahbaz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Peukert's Exponent
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EVision sneak preview
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV achilles' heel - Trailer thoughts
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: BB600 ni-cads, Re: What batteries to try next?
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Surplus Railway Flooded Nicads?
by Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I am posting this for the benefit of anyone else
comtemplating getting anything other than a starting
battery from the Wal-Mart. Maybe Sams is the same, I
don't know, but I am guessing they use the same tools.
I'm trying to get to the bottom of my battery issue.
So, I took out the one I knew to be the worst.
Literally, the case is warped. The plates are
obviously warped and shorting. It failed in a very
severe manner. But, it looks like only one of the 10
met this fate. Maybe it sacrificed itself for the
others, or maybe it truely had a defect from the get
go. I always noticed since Day #1 of install that it
lagged the others.
Step #1 -
I took it back to Walmart and showed them the warped
case. I also took the other one that was sitting next
to it. No issues with that one. So, I expected they
would just replace it. They put it on their "tester"
if you can call it that. Programmed it for Marine /
deep cycle / 550 CCA / 71 degrees F. A few seconds
later, it poped out a printout saying "good battery"
I wasn't really surprised. The tester gave the
battery a rating of 497 CCA out of the rated 550 CCA.
Hey I said, that is no good. But, the printout says
it is fine ...
The other one read 527 CCA. Also somewhat degraded.
So, for kicks I had him test a known bad battery that
I took out of my original string. One that I couldn't
even get 1 mile range out of. Put a load on it, and
it goes to 10 V immediately. It read 639 CCA. I
about fell over. Come on. That thing is completely
toast, 639 CCA ... yea right!
Anyway, I walked out with my severely degraded
batteries that they refused to honor the warranty on -
because "they are still good !?!?"
So, I am going to put them back in tomorrow, drive up
and down the big hill in my neighborhood 5-6 times and
that will be the end of them. Then, I'm going to take
them back when I know for sure that they are
completely destroyed.
At no point have I mistreated them. I kept them
charged, watered, etc. Never took them over 50% DOD.
I know for sure that at least the one with the warped
case had to be defective - internal short of some kind
...
Bottom line, don't buy batteries from someone who
knows nothing about them. They won't know how to test
them, and even when they are bad, you won't get
replacements. All you will get is a long run around.
Hope this helps someone. In the meantime, I know that
if I want to cash in on any battery warranty at the
Walmart, I have to be certain that they are completely
wasted before I bring them back. I tried to do the
right thing and treat them right. Didn't get me very
far at all. Again all I can say is 500 lousy miles.
I'd really like to take this up with Johnson Controls
who made those things. I still say at least some of
them are in fact starting batteries labeled wrong,
labeled as deep cycle. How else could this have
happened?
In the meantime, I'm without my EV until I get this
worked out.
Steve
____________________________________________________________________________________
Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!
http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello all:
a stupid question from somebody who just wont get the math right:
If I want to exchange my T-125's against Nicads, what would be a
comparable AH rating ? I usually pull between 100-200 A from my lead
batteries.
The 20hrs rating for T-125s is 240AH.
Thanks for your help.
Michaela
> Hi Lon, Lee, Tehben and All,
>
>
> -No comparison or availability info there, but good stuff
> nonetheless. I'm
> -curious about relative storage density for various battery
> types. Anyone
> -ever seen a chart?
>
> The weight, cap is about 1.5x's lead for SAFT
> Ni-cad batteries like David below talks about. For cells
> it's about equal except ni-cads can be cycled much deeper
> and not bothered much by cold. I hear they are about
> $900/kwhr due to the dollar losing 1/2 it's value for SAFT
> batteries. While these are great EV batts because they have
> water cooling, automatic watering from SAFT, you need to
> keep power to under 250 amps for long life.
> These are different than the BB600 high power
> cells made for jet starting where we get them surplus. There
> are many types of Ni-cads like the above high and medium
> power versions so make sure your kind is suitible for EV's.
> But they put out 800 amps+
> New ones are available from SAFT in Ga. I like
> used, surplus for their lower price.
> Those who actually use the BB600's are very happy
> with them, especially good for EV's like lawn tractors as
> not charging, leaving them sit does them no harm.
> Most are scared of having to water 300 cell pack
> they were planning but with a good charging regime, that can
> be kept to every few months so not that bad in my opinion
> for a batt that will probably las 20-40 yrs. My SAFT 14amphr
> high power cells after 30+ yrs still put out rated power!!
>
> -Lon Hull
> -Superstructure Industries LLC
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>>I found this post with lots of good information about NiCad
> from our
>>esteemed David:
>>
>>
> http://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mhonarc/elec-trak/msg10434.html
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message Follows -----
> From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: What batteries to try next?
> Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 17:59:09 -0500
>
>>jerryd wrote:
>>> Hi Lee and All, For the price I'd think 2 strings of
>>> surplus BB600 Ni-cads would do you real well, especially
>>> in the colder months in Minn! And you could sell your
>>> battery balancer as it would no longer be needed, using
>>> the money to pay for the new batteries or the Sunrise.
>>> With 11,000 ni-cad cells out there and only about 1-2,000
>>being used, it's time we put them to work!!
>>
>>Now that's an interesting plan. I *could* sell the Balancer
>>, though I don't know if it would pay for a set of BB600
>>cells.
>
> Depends on where you find them. Like I said, just
> one purchase Hump did netted 11,000 cells of which I've
> found few people actually using them after they found out
> they need to water 300 cells!! They were bought for $1/cell
> plus shipping and need cell interconnects that cost about
> $2-3 each to buy though you could make your own.
> If I needed more I'd join the BB600 list and ask.
> There are about 10,000 out there owned by people on the
> list, let's get these into EV's!!
> Lee needs 200 cells, can anyone give him a good deal
> like costs plus a little?
>
> Jerry Dycus
>>
>>--
>>Ring the bells that still can ring
>>Forget the perfect offering
>>There is a crack in everything
>>That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>>--
>>Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
>>leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So why aren't more people using Nicad batts? Are they just to expensive?
Man if they last 20 years, work in the cold and you can't easily kill
them by draining them they seem to have something good going for
them... so does the acid in them keep the water from freezing?
How do you get used ones?
Tehben
On Jun 17, 2007, at 1:58 AM, jerryd wrote:
Hi Lon, Lee, Tehben and All,
-No comparison or availability info there, but good stuff
nonetheless. I'm
-curious about relative storage density for various battery
types. Anyone
-ever seen a chart?
The weight, cap is about 1.5x's lead for SAFT
Ni-cad batteries like David below talks about. For cells
it's about equal except ni-cads can be cycled much deeper
and not bothered much by cold. I hear they are about
$900/kwhr due to the dollar losing 1/2 it's value for SAFT
batteries. While these are great EV batts because they have
water cooling, automatic watering from SAFT, you need to
keep power to under 250 amps for long life.
These are different than the BB600 high power
cells made for jet starting where we get them surplus. There
are many types of Ni-cads like the above high and medium
power versions so make sure your kind is suitible for EV's.
But they put out 800 amps+
New ones are available from SAFT in Ga. I like
used, surplus for their lower price.
Those who actually use the BB600's are very happy
with them, especially good for EV's like lawn tractors as
not charging, leaving them sit does them no harm.
Most are scared of having to water 300 cell pack
they were planning but with a good charging regime, that can
be kept to every few months so not that bad in my opinion
for a batt that will probably las 20-40 yrs. My SAFT 14amphr
high power cells after 30+ yrs still put out rated power!!
-Lon Hull
-Superstructure Industries LLC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I found this post with lots of good information about NiCad
from our
esteemed David:
http://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mhonarc/elec-trak/msg10434.html
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: What batteries to try next?
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2007 17:59:09 -0500
jerryd wrote:
Hi Lee and All, For the price I'd think 2 strings of
surplus BB600 Ni-cads would do you real well, especially
in the colder months in Minn! And you could sell your
battery balancer as it would no longer be needed, using
the money to pay for the new batteries or the Sunrise.
With 11,000 ni-cad cells out there and only about 1-2,000
being used, it's time we put them to work!!
Now that's an interesting plan. I *could* sell the Balancer
, though I don't know if it would pay for a set of BB600
cells.
Depends on where you find them. Like I said, just
one purchase Hump did netted 11,000 cells of which I've
found few people actually using them after they found out
they need to water 300 cells!! They were bought for $1/cell
plus shipping and need cell interconnects that cost about
$2-3 each to buy though you could make your own.
If I needed more I'd join the BB600 list and ask.
There are about 10,000 out there owned by people on the
list, let's get these into EV's!!
Lee needs 200 cells, can anyone give him a good deal
like costs plus a little?
Jerry Dycus
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In reply to some discussion of BB600, I did a Google search and found:
<http://www.sg-photo.com/nicad_batteries.htm>
I have no more info that this. I have no connection to these guys.
Just found them on the web.
Hope this helps someone.
Regards,
Tom Brannan
--
"It is better to meet a mother bear robbed of her cubs
than to meet some fool busy with a stupid project"
Proverbs 17:12 (TEV)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They said that they are working with several possibilities including
LiIon and Fuel Cells but nothing will be available in the short time.
Dennis Foulke
"Every reform was once a private opinion." - Ralph Waldo Emmerson
--
Loni wrote:
Did you enquire about the battery upgrade they say is coming soon on
their weebsite? I'm curious when they'll be available, what type
they'll be, and at what cost. Might be worth an extra few grand to
could get 100-mile range.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good for Walmart for not letting you rip them off. You bought something you
were warned was wrong for the job, but of course you knew better. You
misused them until they were ruined all the while insisting that you have
taken excellent care of them, even though you couldn't possibly know what
you've been doing to them since you don't have any instrumentation on them.
Then you do your best to find a way to scam Walmart into believing that
their batteries have some kind of defect that should be covered by a
warranty and they should have to pay for your lack of judgement instead of
you, and they didn't go for it.
The bottom line is that you did exactly what almost every first time EV
owner does in that you murdered your first pack. Why you insist on trying
to get someone else to pay for your mistakes is beyond me. It seems to me
that your choices now are either to get out of EVs altogether, or learn the
lesson that you have just been provided and don't make the same mistake ever
again. If you choose the latter then buy the correct batteries this time
around, buy the correct meters, and treat your batteries like you love them.
It's either that, or go back to buying gas...
damon
From: Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: What happened when I went to cash in on my battery warrenty
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 16:16:31 -0700 (PDT)
I am posting this for the benefit of anyone else
comtemplating getting anything other than a starting
battery from the Wal-Mart. Maybe Sams is the same, I
don't know, but I am guessing they use the same tools.
I'm trying to get to the bottom of my battery issue.
So, I took out the one I knew to be the worst.
Literally, the case is warped. The plates are
obviously warped and shorting. It failed in a very
severe manner. But, it looks like only one of the 10
met this fate. Maybe it sacrificed itself for the
others, or maybe it truely had a defect from the get
go. I always noticed since Day #1 of install that it
lagged the others.
Step #1 -
I took it back to Walmart and showed them the warped
case. I also took the other one that was sitting next
to it. No issues with that one. So, I expected they
would just replace it. They put it on their "tester"
if you can call it that. Programmed it for Marine /
deep cycle / 550 CCA / 71 degrees F. A few seconds
later, it poped out a printout saying "good battery"
I wasn't really surprised. The tester gave the
battery a rating of 497 CCA out of the rated 550 CCA.
Hey I said, that is no good. But, the printout says
it is fine ...
The other one read 527 CCA. Also somewhat degraded.
So, for kicks I had him test a known bad battery that
I took out of my original string. One that I couldn't
even get 1 mile range out of. Put a load on it, and
it goes to 10 V immediately. It read 639 CCA. I
about fell over. Come on. That thing is completely
toast, 639 CCA ... yea right!
Anyway, I walked out with my severely degraded
batteries that they refused to honor the warranty on -
because "they are still good !?!?"
So, I am going to put them back in tomorrow, drive up
and down the big hill in my neighborhood 5-6 times and
that will be the end of them. Then, I'm going to take
them back when I know for sure that they are
completely destroyed.
At no point have I mistreated them. I kept them
charged, watered, etc. Never took them over 50% DOD.
I know for sure that at least the one with the warped
case had to be defective - internal short of some kind
...
Bottom line, don't buy batteries from someone who
knows nothing about them. They won't know how to test
them, and even when they are bad, you won't get
replacements. All you will get is a long run around.
Hope this helps someone. In the meantime, I know that
if I want to cash in on any battery warranty at the
Walmart, I have to be certain that they are completely
wasted before I bring them back. I tried to do the
right thing and treat them right. Didn't get me very
far at all. Again all I can say is 500 lousy miles.
I'd really like to take this up with Johnson Controls
who made those things. I still say at least some of
them are in fact starting batteries labeled wrong,
labeled as deep cycle. How else could this have
happened?
In the meantime, I'm without my EV until I get this
worked out.
Steve
____________________________________________________________________________________
Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!
http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
_________________________________________________________________
Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN
http://liveearth.msn.com?source=msntaglineliveearthhm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is this way to solve back emf anything worthwhile or new?
Text of Page follows:
The LaFonte Group - Home
http://lafontegroup.com/index.htm
LaFonte Group
The present Group projects are the Equilibrium Generator and the
Equilibrium Motor. For theory of operation see Current Projects .
Illustration Of Mechanical/Magnetic Equilibrium
Back EMF Problem Solved
Mark and I ran into a problem in a generator design we were testing a
few months ago. We could get very large voltages from the system, but
current was almost nonexistent. We measured the resistance of the wiring
and then divided it into the output voltage and the current rate should
be 2 amps if the coil was connected to a battery and the rotor was
locked, not turning. I asked, what was keeping the coil from being able
to produce this same amount of current when the coil was being powered
by the rotor magnet? Well, it was obvious to me it seemed that the rotor
magnetic field strength in the coil core varies when it cycles through,
but the coil powered by a battery has a constant voltage and the
magnetic field in the coil core is constant. Well it does not take an
Einstein to figure out that the changing magnetic field of the rotor
stator combination was causing the current blockage. What was happening
was that the current rise in the stator coil was inducing a counter emf
into the coil and blocking current flow and to some degree voltage. To
solve the problem the voltage in the stator coil needed to stay constant
for the coil to put out the power equal to the power being generated as
heat in the battery and coil only test with rotor locked. Here is what I
came up with.
1. First for this idea to work, you need to have a cog free
rotor/stator system. We have that in not one, but two different designs.
The core can be any ferromagnetic material, it does not have to be only
iron.
2. You then run from an external power source, constant voltage (not
pulsed) DC power through the stator coil. 3. Second, you have a load
that can induce a counter emf into the circuit (motor etc.).
3. Third, you then synchronize the voltage induced by the cog free
generator so that it's voltage is equal but opposite to the counter
voltage of the load in the circuit. This keeps the voltage, current and
magnetic field of the stator coil constant and eliminates any counter
emf being induced into the coil. The generator now has become a voltage
source only that requires no work input. The motor in the circuit is
running for free now.
4. The DC circuit that was at work at the very start of this sequence
is doing work for a secondary need in a conventional way or it's energy
can be stored and recycled.
5. This should open up a whole new field of overunity development.
Every coil/ferromagnetic core configuration has had this power "locked
up" in it and that power can now be put to work.
© Butch LaFonte 6-13-07
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Phone 1-205-352-4714 Central Time Zone, USA
News :
This site is under construction. Please come back again soon.
Links :
Photos
Animations
Videos (5)
Drawings
Concepts
Past
Now
Please note :
A collection of over 1200 drawings, animations, videos, pictures and
operational theory from past projects will be released soon.
© 2007 Butch LaFonte. All rights reserved.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
GWMobile wrote:
Is this way to solve back emf anything worthwhile or new?
What's there to solve? That's just rambling from some ignorant fool
without a ninth-grade education. Overunity discussions are banned on
this list for good reason.
Cory Cross
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No, it's quack science/fraud. Rehash of the same BS claim that's been
going on for over 100 yrs.
Please use the list for real questions and lay off the quackery.
Danny
GWMobile wrote:
Is this way to solve back emf anything worthwhile or new?
Text of Page follows:
The LaFonte Group - Home
http://lafontegroup.com/index.htm
LaFonte Group
The present Group projects are the Equilibrium Generator and the
Equilibrium Motor. For theory of operation see Current Projects .
Illustration Of Mechanical/Magnetic Equilibrium
Back EMF Problem Solved
Mark and I ran into a problem in a generator design we were testing a
few months ago. We could get very large voltages from the system, but
current was almost nonexistent. We measured the resistance of the
wiring and then divided it into the output voltage and the current
rate should be 2 amps if the coil was connected to a battery and the
rotor was locked, not turning. I asked, what was keeping the coil from
being able to produce this same amount of current when the coil was
being powered by the rotor magnet? Well, it was obvious to me it
seemed that the rotor magnetic field strength in the coil core varies
when it cycles through, but the coil powered by a battery has a
constant voltage and the magnetic field in the coil core is constant.
Well it does not take an Einstein to figure out that the changing
magnetic field of the rotor stator combination was causing the current
blockage. What was happening was that the current rise in the stator
coil was inducing a counter emf into the coil and blocking current
flow and to some degree voltage. To solve the problem the voltage in
the stator coil needed to stay constant for the coil to put out the
power equal to the power being generated as heat in the battery and
coil only test with rotor locked. Here is what I came up with.
1. First for this idea to work, you need to have a cog free
rotor/stator system. We have that in not one, but two different
designs. The core can be any ferromagnetic material, it does not have
to be only iron.
2. You then run from an external power source, constant voltage (not
pulsed) DC power through the stator coil. 3. Second, you have a load
that can induce a counter emf into the circuit (motor etc.).
3. Third, you then synchronize the voltage induced by the cog free
generator so that it's voltage is equal but opposite to the counter
voltage of the load in the circuit. This keeps the voltage, current
and magnetic field of the stator coil constant and eliminates any
counter emf being induced into the coil. The generator now has become
a voltage source only that requires no work input. The motor in the
circuit is running for free now.
4. The DC circuit that was at work at the very start of this sequence
is doing work for a secondary need in a conventional way or it's
energy can be stored and recycled.
5. This should open up a whole new field of overunity development.
Every coil/ferromagnetic core configuration has had this power "locked
up" in it and that power can now be put to work.
© Butch LaFonte 6-13-07
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Phone 1-205-352-4714 Central Time Zone, USA
News :
This site is under construction. Please come back again soon.
Links :
Photos
Animations
Videos (5)
Drawings
Concepts
Past
Now
Please note :
A collection of over 1200 drawings, animations, videos, pictures and
operational theory from past projects will be released soon.
© 2007 Butch LaFonte. All rights reserved.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
there certainly are many deranged people in the overunity field but I
think it's worth keeping in mind who started it and the caliber of the man.
Nikola Tesla
just for the record, things are not as they appear to be.
Dan
Danny Miller wrote:
No, it's quack science/fraud. Rehash of the same BS claim that's been
going on for over 100 yrs.
Please use the list for real questions and lay off the quackery.
Danny
GWMobile wrote:
Is this way to solve back emf anything worthwhile or new?
Text of Page follows:
The LaFonte Group - Home
http://lafontegroup.com/index.htm
LaFonte Group
The present Group projects are the Equilibrium Generator and the
Equilibrium Motor. For theory of operation see Current Projects .
Illustration Of Mechanical/Magnetic Equilibrium
Back EMF Problem Solved
Mark and I ran into a problem in a generator design we were testing
a few months ago. We could get very large voltages from the system,
but current was almost nonexistent. We measured the resistance of the
wiring and then divided it into the output voltage and the current
rate should be 2 amps if the coil was connected to a battery and the
rotor was locked, not turning. I asked, what was keeping the coil
from being able to produce this same amount of current when the coil
was being powered by the rotor magnet? Well, it was obvious to me it
seemed that the rotor magnetic field strength in the coil core varies
when it cycles through, but the coil powered by a battery has a
constant voltage and the magnetic field in the coil core is constant.
Well it does not take an Einstein to figure out that the changing
magnetic field of the rotor stator combination was causing the
current blockage. What was happening was that the current rise in the
stator coil was inducing a counter emf into the coil and blocking
current flow and to some degree voltage. To solve the problem the
voltage in the stator coil needed to stay constant for the coil to
put out the power equal to the power being generated as heat in the
battery and coil only test with rotor locked. Here is what I came up
with.
1. First for this idea to work, you need to have a cog free
rotor/stator system. We have that in not one, but two different
designs. The core can be any ferromagnetic material, it does not have
to be only iron.
2. You then run from an external power source, constant voltage (not
pulsed) DC power through the stator coil. 3. Second, you have a load
that can induce a counter emf into the circuit (motor etc.).
3. Third, you then synchronize the voltage induced by the cog free
generator so that it's voltage is equal but opposite to the counter
voltage of the load in the circuit. This keeps the voltage, current
and magnetic field of the stator coil constant and eliminates any
counter emf being induced into the coil. The generator now has become
a voltage source only that requires no work input. The motor in the
circuit is running for free now.
4. The DC circuit that was at work at the very start of this
sequence is doing work for a secondary need in a conventional way or
it's energy can be stored and recycled.
5. This should open up a whole new field of overunity development.
Every coil/ferromagnetic core configuration has had this power
"locked up" in it and that power can now be put to work.
© Butch LaFonte 6-13-07
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Phone 1-205-352-4714 Central Time Zone, USA
News :
This site is under construction. Please come back again soon.
Links :
Photos
Animations
Videos (5)
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On 14 Jun 2007 at 15:49, David Wilker wrote:
> I have a student that would like to subscribe to the list, but I don't
> remember
> how. Thanks.--
>
There are several information websites for the EVDL floating around the web.
Some of these contain outdated and/or incorrect information. As the
current EVDL administrator, I operate a consistently updated website which
provides reliable information. It's located at
http://www.evdl.org
There you'll find complete, up to date instructions on subscribing and other
commands. Please bookmark it and refer others with questions to this
website.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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At 05:11 PM 6/17/2007, Thomas Brannan wrote:
In reply to some discussion of BB600, I did a Google search and found:
<http://www.sg-photo.com/nicad_batteries.htm>
I have no more info that this. I have no connection to these guys.
Just found them on the web.
They lie.
They haven't had any in years, yet still list them on their web page.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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East Penn gel batteries (the 8Gxx range) have surprisingly long lives -
often 5 years or more - in Solectria Forces. That's with no balancing.
With your balancer, they should hold up much longer.
They don't deliver very good specific energy, however. Nor much specific
power; in Forces the max is 250-300 amps. You could probably push them to
350 amps as long as those loads weren't continuous, but that's still less
than you're using now.
Sorry, no idea what current costs are.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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On 15 Jun 2007 at 3:19, jukka wrote:
> I happen to know the owner personally, Joe Szetella (sp?) whom
> I met at EVS-23 in Japan last October.
That's not Joe LaStella, is it?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
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Voltage sag and Peukert's coefficient are somewhat related.
Sag is proportional to the internal resistance of the battery when being
discharged.
Peukert's coefficient describes how fast the internal resistance goes up
over the duration of a discharge.
Low Peukert means the resistance is relatively stable.
High Peukert means the resistance goes up much more quickly.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Former owner of 48 Volt Fiesta
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Tahbaz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 10:38 PM
Subject: Peukert's Exponent
Hello, I'm new here.
I have a question about voltage sag. Now I know that if you draw a lot of
amps, voltage will sag. Peukert's Exponent helps measure to what degree the
voltage sag is for a particular battery, right? So a smaller Peukert's
Exponent means less voltage sag, and thus more power, correct?
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John,
Diameter of the front display PCB is 73.5mm.
If you want to integrate display into the dash, you can
(optionally) keep break-away ears on both sides which have
mounting holes. Those ears of course protrude outside the round
PCB as can be seen on the photo:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/evision/production_pcbs.jpg
Look at the bottom right PCB -lower of the co-jointed
two round ones has ears with holes in the corners.
If you break them away (as is done to install into
round enclosure), the PCB becomes round, but there is
no mounting points. This option is only for installation
into the globe - like enclosure as on the photo on the web site.
Victor
JS wrote:
Victor,
I saw the pictures and looked at the specs at
http://www.metricmind.com/evision.htm
Can you supply the dimensions of the indicator unit?
I want to see if it will fit my dash.
John in Sylmar, CA
PV EV
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Dan Frederiksen kirjoitti:
jukka wrote:
Batts: 45 pcs of 200 Ah LiCo-cells. That's about 32 kWh and 250 kgs.
BMS: GENII BMS version made in cooperation with FEVT/MME.
Car: Citroén Berlingo EV (OEM) 1999 modell.
The components are priced according the agreed sales prices world wide.
any rational reason why you just don't tell the cost?
Because we are not selling to end users. To OEMs only. They have the
pricing.
The donor cost only 2000 eur due some missing parts (NiCd batts) and
cooperation with Enviro Elbilsalg AS, Norge.
yeah I hear you can get those almost free. not my favorite car style
though :)
Car has now 50 pcs of LFP-150s but other components are same.
the others died? after how long?
:) Nice assumption Dan.
But actually I wanted to start the test program with LFP cells in a car
and this car was good for it. The 200 Ah cells are still good and now
partially in two other vehicles. 2 or 3 cells was left over and I think
they are still sitting somewhere in the lab.
-Jukka
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Hi Tehben , Michaela and All,
-So why aren't more people using Nicad batts? Are they just
to expensive?
Yes as I stated about $900kwhr. They do last real
long if you put the right type in the right app with a good
charger.
-Man if they last 20 years, work in the cold and you can't
easily kill
-them by draining them they seem to have something good
going for
-them..
Like I said, I use 30+ yr old ones and Ni-cads 75
yrs old have been tested to rated power!!
But the new ones that SAFT sells, the lightest
ones, are not good for above 250 amps so your EV needs to
work within that limit. The BB600's are very high power
cells that easily put out 800 amps but cells 1.5x's as
heavy/cap.
. so does the acid in them keep the water from freezing?
They use KOH, not acid as the electrolyte. Not sure
just how low temp they work to but well below anything I'm
likely to find in Fla. One truck I think is in Alaska where
they are really worth it like in Minn. If I lived up north
in those areas, I'd use Ni-cads!!
-How do you get used ones?
EV for sale lists, BB600 list, begging, buying an
old EV van and parting it out, battery shops sometimes get
old oners and don't want to recycle them so many times you
can get them for free though be sure what you are getting as
there are many low specific power that won't work well or
long! It's how I got my first 14amphr SAFTs. My BB600's came
from a friend. It's nice to have friends ;^D
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: BB600 ni-cads, Re: What batteries to try next?
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 18:40:49 -0500 (CDT)
>Hello all:
>
>a stupid question from somebody who just wont get the math
>right:
>
>If I want to exchange my T-125's against Nicads, what would
>be a comparable AH rating ? I usually pull between 100-200
>A from my lead batteries.
>
>The 20hrs rating for T-125s is 240AH.
>
>Thanks for your help.
For such a large vehicle EV, I would go for BB600's
only if 300vdc system and even there marginal though good if
you only need 20-25 mile range.
To replace 20 t125's would take way too many BB600's
with there need to fill 500 or so cells and why so few of
those 11,000 were used!!
With the price due to the low $ exchange rate, new
SAFTs are now about $900/kwhr so hitting $20k for a nicad
pack for your truck with matching range. A good thing is you
will lose 1/3 your battery weight and they have central
water fill, cooling!! Between that, deeper cycle, no
peukuet, cold problems, derating they will give longer
actual range for a given rating.
Back when they were only $550/kwhr they were worth
buying new, cheaper than 2 agm packs, but now marginal.
What I'm going to do is use flooded lead for my
first pack, then by the time they die in 4-7 yrs because of
light use at 100+ mile range, Li batts should be reasonable
cost, reliable by then. In it, a full load of ni-cads would
give it over 175 mile range!!
Jerry Dycus
>
>Michaela
>
>
>
>
>> Hi Lon, Lee, Tehben and All,
>>
>>
>> -No comparison or availability info there, but good stuff
>> nonetheless. I'm
>> -curious about relative storage density for various
>> battery types. Anyone
>> -ever seen a chart?
>>
>> The weight, cap is about 1.5x's lead for SAFT
>> Ni-cad batteries like David below talks about. For cells
>> it's about equal except ni-cads can be cycled much deeper
>> and not bothered much by cold. I hear they are about
>> $900/kwhr due to the dollar losing 1/2 it's value for
>> SAFT batteries. While these are great EV batts because
>> they have water cooling, automatic watering from SAFT,
>> you need to keep power to under 250 amps for long life.
>> These are different than the BB600 high power
>> cells made for jet starting where we get them surplus.
>> There are many types of Ni-cads like the above high and
>> medium power versions so make sure your kind is suitible
>> for EV's. But they put out 800 amps+
>> New ones are available from SAFT in Ga. I like
>> used, surplus for their lower price.
>> Those who actually use the BB600's are very
>> happy with them, especially good for EV's like lawn
>> tractors as not charging, leaving them sit does them no
>> harm. Most are scared of having to water 300
>> cell pack they were planning but with a good charging
>> regime, that can be kept to every few months so not that
>> bad in my opinion for a batt that will probably las 20-40
>> yrs. My SAFT 14amphr high power cells after 30+ yrs still
>>put out rated power!!
>> -Lon Hull
>> -Superstructure Industries LLC
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>>I found this post with lots of good information about
>> NiCad from our
>>>esteemed David:
>>>
>>>
>>
>>http://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mhonarc/elec-trak/msg10434.htm
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Wonder if there are any of these flooded nicads, in a
surplus market yet? Anyone work for a railway?
http://www.sbsbattery.com/PDFs/sbsRAILWAY_BROCHURE%20SPB.pdf
M. Barkley
www.texomaev.com
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1135
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