EV Digest 6960

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) RE: ???kWh EV battery pack
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Wheel Hub Motors?
        by "owen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: EV air conditioning, how to connect motor?
        by "Randall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) reed switch application
        by Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) RE: EV air conditioning, how to connect motor?
        by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Wheel Hub Motors?
        by "Tehben Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: regarding the Solectria Sunrise
        by "Randall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: regarding the Solectria Sunrise
        by Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: EV air conditioning, how to connect motor?
        by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) VS: Re: Cheap
        by "Jukka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Cheap "balancer" for A123 pack
        by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: I have an IDEA!
        by "Tehben Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: EV air conditioning, how to connect motor?
        by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: ???kWh EV battery pack
        by "Tehben Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: Brush timing advance, nothing new :-)
        by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Adapter Problem
        by "Tehben Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: Controler space
        by "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: Wheel Hub Motors?
        by "Rob Hogenmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Any Rabbit EV owners here?
        by "John A. Evans - N0HJ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) RE: I have an IDEA!
        by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: Adapter Problem
        by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) RE: Adapter Problem
        by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) RE: Adapter Problem
        by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) Re: reed switch application
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 25) Re: ft-lbs or lbs-ft
        by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote: 

> C=Capacity.  If the battery has a rated capacity of 100Ah, 
> then 1C equals a 100 amp discharge.  Most PbA batteries
> capacity is rated at the 20 hr discharge rate, so our
> 100 AH battery is actually only food for 100 Ah if
> you drain it at 5 Amps for 20 hours (C20 or 0.05C)

Just to muddy the waters, this is not precisely correct.

C=capacity at whatever rate a particular manufacturer chooses to rate
their product; it does not mean the 1-hour capacity necessarily,
although one would intuitively expect that 1C=C/1=C.

Most PbA batteries will have a capacity spec at the 20-hour rate (C/20)
somewhere in their datasheet, but this number is of little use for
traction applications.  Most flooded PbA batteries will also have a
capacity rating specified at the 5-hour rate (C/5, or often C.sub.5).
It is not unusual for battery manufacturers to refer to this as the
capacity of the battery, but usually they will include a subscript #.  A
common place this comes up is in a manufacturer's charge
recommendations, where the current may be specified something like
0.05CA, which means "a current, in amps, equal to 0.05 of the rated
capacity".  You then need to refer closely to the manufacturer's
literature to confirm what rate they use when rating their battery
capacity.

Many AGMs are rated at the 10-hour rate (e.g. Hawker Genesis), because
this is the more common and useful measure in the applications (UPS,
etc) that they target.  The 5hr rate is common in industrial/motive
power applications and is of more value for us than the 20-hour rate,
even though what most of us really need is the 1C and 2C (60 and 30 min
rate) capacities.

Cheers,

Roger.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
i aready asked how much

"We can supply wheel motors and drives to be fitted by the customer to almost any type of vehicle. At present they are all being built by hand to customer order; nothing is available 'off the shelf'. We quote for each application individually. (As a rough guide, the HPD30 motors are priced at GBP £7420 each and the master controller for 2-wheel drive is GBP £4000. This is the cheapest Hi Pa drive option available)."

owen

----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Tahbaz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 1:45 PM
Subject: [SPAM] Re: Wheel Hub Motors?


PML makes hub motors, though I don't know if you can just order a
bunch yourself.

On 6/24/07, Rob Hogenmiller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Are there any available wheel hub motors?




--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Excellent idea!!

http://www.denso.co.jp/motorshow/2003/en/presskit/product_electric/index.html

http://www.mail-archive.com/ev@listproc.sjsu.edu/msg06587.html

http://www.powermanagementdesignline.com/howto/newpowerplays/199600391;jsessionid=4C22M5BBCSBHSQSNDLQCKIKCJUNN2JVN


----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim, Saturn Guy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 8:43 PM
Subject: RE: EV air conditioning, how to connect motor?


Christopher,

Hi, my name is Jim.  I am an ASE master mechanic and
have been toying with the A/C requirements of my own
EV. The direct drive is an OK idea, but the automotive
compressors have the electromechanical clutches on
them for a reason.  They are made to "cycle"
frequently under normal operating conditions.  Without
this "cycling" of the compressor, the system will not
operate as it was designed to do.  Start you ICE
vehicle, turn on the A/C and hold the engine RPM up at
2000 like your going down the road.  No watch how
often the compressor cycles.  This action should be
duplicated using your direct drive.  And if it is
duplicated, I would think the life of your DC
accessory motor will be short.  I have been looking
into the possibility of using the compressor from a
wrecked Toyota Prius.  They use a "compressor/motor"
assembly.  There are no external moving parts.  Just
feed it power.  But I'm still investigating what the
power requirements are for these compressors.  If you
want to use the compressor you have, I would use belt
or chain drive and let the compressors clutch do it's
job.  Have fun!!

Jim
--- Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Wed, 2007-06-27 at 13:04 -0700, Alan Brinkman
wrote:
> Christopher,
>
> I wrote this huge reply to your message and
deleted it and here are the
> key points I can add.  I have trouble creating
short messages.
>

Thanks for the effort Alan, I really appreciate it.
I'm going to fiddle
around with the compressor and see what I can do
with it, and I'll refer
back to your email and Roland's and see if I
understand more once I have
the parts in front of me.  I'm hoping to do
something like what you're
talking about, attaching to the front face of the
clutch/pulley
assembly, and using the bolt into the shaft end to
center everything.
Balancing might be an issue especially if I weld,
but we'll see how it
goes...


--
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org          <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre +
Z2K + Warp13!






____________________________________________________________________________________
Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I've spent the past couple of hours doing some online reading about reed switches. I have found a couple of questions unanswered. I bet some list members have the answers.

My situation is that I want to add a reed switch along one of my EVs motor power wires as part of a system to shut a Curtis controller down quickly in the event it shorts on. The basic concept is [brake light on power] > [reed switch] > [SPDT relay with coil diode]. The switching contact is connected to ignition power in. The N.C. contact goes to the main contactor. The N.O. contact is connected to the one side of the coil and the other side of the coil is connected to ground. The brake light on power and reed switch in series can apply power to the same side of the coil as the N.O. contact to pull it in and the N.O. contact will latch it on.

I have been looking at the test coils for reed switches and it appears that the reed switch to be tested is supposed to be slid inside the coil. If that is correct would that mean that I should put a round core around the power cable and slide the reed switch inside the same direction as the cable? When the power cable just passes through (or the reed switch is laid on the wire) what percentage of a turn is that approximately? Suggestions about the amp-turn rating of the selected reed switch would also be useful. I'm trying to get in the ball park before I just start buying parts half randomly :-)

Thanx,

Paul "neon" G.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Direct drive from a DC motor to an A/C compressor:

http://metricmind.com/dc_honda/ac1.jpg

http://metricmind.com/dc_honda/hood2.jpg

Belt drive from a DC motor to an A/C compressor:

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/popupimg.php?247

Cycling the compressor is not a problem. Simply switch the motor on and off instead of engaging and disengaging a clutch. The motor on the Solectria setups are 1.25 Hp if I recall correctly.

Thanks,

Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html

In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For 2 motors and the controller thats just shy of $40,000 but when you
add shipping....


--
TEhben
'hElix EV'
evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
wouldn't that become a "reconstructed" vehicle?


----- Original Message ----- From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: regarding the Solectria Sunrise


Well, that's the question isn't it? When is the Tbird not a Tbird anymore? It's obviously no other kind of car the cop recognizes so you say you built your own lightweight custom body, and oh by the way it's also electric now. Take a look under the hood, can you believe the price of gas...

I guarantee that if it is John Wayland driving the "Tbird", not only will he not get a ticket, but both the cop and the Tbird will end up in some kind of wacky video posted on Plasmaboyracing.com :-)

I really don't know what the answer is, but it seems to me just as likely to work and be legal as not. I have heard of people buying an old motorcycle and just cutting off the neck where the VIN is stamped then building something custom all the way around that one piece. Of course, I don't know if that is true or legal either.

damon


From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: regarding the Solectria Sunrise
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 02:27:51 -0700 (MST)

Hmm, and if a cop should run your plates?  They come back as belonging to
a T-bird (or whatever) and you're obviously not driving a T-bird... do you
think that might cause a bit of a problem?

> I think you miss my point.  You register the donor vehicle when you buy
> it,
> then you build the kit on top of it keeping the license plates and VINs
> from
> the donor vehicle.  So it is not a kit car, it is still considered the
> original vehicle.  I've never done this type of thing before and don't
> know
> how this would fly in a particular state, but I was wondering out loud
if
> it
> could be this easy.
>
> When I had my motorcycle inspected in Washington, which was only
necessary
> because I had no title, I already had the gas engine out and the
electric
> motor mounted. The state trooper looked at it and casually remarked > did
> you
> change the engine in this thing.  I just told him yes, got my paperwork
> signed and have never had to do anything special, just treated it like > a
> 1974 Suzuki GT250 in any ensuing paperwork.
>
> damon
>
>
>>From: "John A. Evans - N0HJ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>Subject: Re: regarding the Solectria Sunrise
>>Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 15:46:36 -0600
>>
>>Speaking of my experience with Colorado and a kit trailer I assembled
>>(Harbor Freight), when I went to register it and get tags, they didn't
>> want
>>the VIN supplied by the chinese manufacturer since it was a KIT - so
they
>>issued me sticker with a state issued VIN and requested/required that I
>>remove the original VIN from the trailer.  Sounds really silly in my
>>opinion, but that is the way it happened here.
>>
>>So for Colorado, I would say that a kit vehicle would get a different
VIN
>>rather than the underlying vehicle VIN.
>>
>>john
>>
>>damon henry wrote:
>>>I wonder if you can also use the VIN of the donor car to avoid DMV
>>>hassles.
>>>
>>>damon
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Like puzzles? Play free games & earn great prizes. Play Clink now.
> http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2
>
>


--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.


_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jun 27, 2007, at 2:27 AM, Peter VanDerWal wrote:

Hmm, and if a cop should run your plates? They come back as belonging to a T-bird (or whatever) and you're obviously not driving a T-bird... do you
think that might cause a bit of a problem?

Damon wrote:
I think you miss my point. You register the donor vehicle when you buy
it,
then you build the kit on top of it keeping the license plates and VINs
from
the donor vehicle. So it is not a kit car, it is still considered the original vehicle. I've never done this type of thing before and don't
know
how this would fly in a particular state, but I was wondering out loud if
it
could be this easy.

When I had my motorcycle inspected in Washington,
[snip]

WA is pretty lax about kit cars built from a vehicle of a recognized manufacturer. My EV Buggy is (according to WA) a 1964 VW Beetle 2- door sedan, red. Its really a purple 0-door roadster. I've owned it for 15 years and have never been pulled over (in that car.) I don't think they get concerned unless your VIN comes back as stolen or not registered.

However, you are not allowed to transfer frame VIN numbers. If you want to remove the structure that contains the VIN you have to have the state patrol transfer it to some section you are not going to alter. Later they can transfer it to a tag in the door jam, if it meets the rules. Since you will have replaced the unibody frame I don't think that will meet the rules for retaining the manufacturers VIN. On the other hand, cutting 14 inches out of the center of a VW pan to build a beach buggy doesn't even require an inspection (since the part of the frame containing the VIN is not removed or concealed.)

The rules seem to get minor revisions every few years. I'd contact the WA State Patrol and ask. They are generally (in my experience) pretty helpful though kit car questions can get you a bit of the run around. They used to (and may still) have a guide about special motor vehicle requirements.

Paul "neon" G.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A thought about automotive AC.
The ICE manufactures had no control over the rpm you might choose to
drive at, so I am sure they went to the extreamly cheap method of using
the clutch to cycle the compressor on and off. They had to make sure it
was geared fast enough to work at idle, but be able to avoid
overpressure or starvation by cycling the clutch.

Maybe we can use a small controller to vary the speed based on load?
Sensing this may be expensive but the prius does this to save power, it
may be worth looking into.

I have worked on 20 to 60 Ton Chillers and the basic ones have hot gas
bypass that relieves the load without stopping the compressor as
starting and stopping a 20+ HP motor is very wastefull and hard on it. 
The more expensive ones use an AC drive to match the load to the work.

Perhaps the same ideas holds true here. The repeated inrush current will
kill ya. Maybe just a knob on the dash to let the operator slow it down
if it is cylling a lot, and up if they want it colder.

hummm, let em thing about that a second, if the compressor runs too slow
the liqued freon will begin to sublime before the expansion valve and
start iceing up. An automatic control would be better. Two thermocouples
and a PIC may be cheapest. use the existing low pressure cutout switch too.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When a cell fails and "shorts" (Li-Ion that is) it does not short completely at 
every case. The resistance might also just build up in a way that it generates 
few amps of leaking. How you fix that ? It eats some capacity from that bank 
even if you open the main contactors.

By stressing cells with even a bit higher load you are eating cells faster. 
They wear off. That bank of cell will fail (if no other failures happen in the 
other banks) first. You might actually get away for a long time by letting the 
pack die smoothly. But i think that's just waste of poor ions. No wonder these 
packs are warrantied only to 100 000 miles.

200 miles/charge
100 000/200 = 500 cycles. :P

Even Zebra is better and cheaper.

Say the 130 ah 360V pack would cost 25000 Usd. 100 000 miles.15 kwh/60miles => 
USD 17/60 miles. Does it sound cheap?

Thou we need to estimate what is the pack condition after 100 000 miles. Will 
it do still mild acceleration and 100 miles/charge.. I bet it will be hard to 
determine.

Managing a 200 ah cell is not that expencive. With 3kw charger a complete 
system is about 20% of the whole cost. And when integrated in to the cell 
structures in mass production even much less. 

I could estimate that ev hobbyist can get away with 10 000 USD with already 
boxed and complete system in 2009 (180v200ah+bms+3kw charger).  For now it's 
available for beta testers and some vehicles are on the roads already. We make 
1 system/month for evaf.org members. Current setups are 76,8v350ah for Elcats. 
I know at least one user who is in silent mode on the list. 

Maybe you can share some of your experiences on daily Lithuim rations :)


Jukka Järvinen
Fevt.com
+358440735705

-- alkuper. viesti --
Aihe: Re: Cheap
Lähettäjä: "Shaun Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Päivämäärä: 27.06.2007 12:34

On 6/27/07, Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> As Lee notes, automotive fuses would probably not be a good choice,
> though I suppose it is fair to observe that they do seem to work fairly
> reliably in 12V automotive systems and until the last of your fuses on a
> given module fails, they will be operating at a single cell voltage (so
> <4.5V).

Good point.

>
> I think the more practical approach (that Bill Dube has mentioned) is to
> use tabs welded between each cell and the module common bus
> bars/planes/etc. as fusible links.  If a cell fails shorted and
> N-neighbours dump their full current through it, the fault current will
> be significantly greater than the normal operating current, so the
> fusible link does not have to be particularly precise in the current
> required to open it.

Thanks Roger, can you suggest an off-the-shelf product that could be
used for this? That is, a fusible material that could be spot welded
to either the cell-end or existing cell-tab, or is it simply a case of
make it thin enough and it will give?


> I doubt the benefit of being able to identify that a particular cell had
> failed would justify the cost and complexity of the monitoring required
>With most cells available now, the number in
> parallel is dictated by the required capacity, not the required peak
> current capability.

Nicely put.

>The result is that, again, one can lose a fair
> number of cells in any module before any of the remaining cells are
> going to be stressed particularly by carrying the full load current on
> their own.

I'm thinking that should a module's capacity become severely depleted
due to multiple blown cells it could be detected under load with a
voltage comparison to other modules.

Thanks,

Shaun

www.electric-echo.com


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As has been publicized in EVworld and other places, Aerovironment has
been testing their cells for a while now. I'm just a lowly employee
who design BMS systems and I'm not sure what exactly I'm at liberty to
discuss so I won't be sharing any specific details. I will just tell
you that we're all deeply impressed by their technology.



On 6/28/07, Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Peter,

         I must have missed your post about testing the Altairnano
cells. This is the first I have heard of them being released to
anyone for testing that was at liberty to reveal the actual results.

         What sort o specific power do they have? What is their
specific energy?

         They claim more than 4000 W/kg, but I haven't heard of
anyone confirming this. Are you seeing these numbers?

         Bill Dube'

At 10:22 PM 6/26/2007, you wrote:
>I did the math, after we cycled their cells. The math says their
>claims hold up pretty well. Please ignore the man behind the curtain
>holding a suitcase full of money. ;)
>
>
>
>>
>>Keep in mind that Alairnano has not released any cells to anyone
>>outside their direct influence. If you have a hot new battery that
>>really works well, you want to make engineering development samples
>>available to all the OEMs. Altairnano has not done this. You do the math. :-)
>>
>>          Bill Dube'
>
>--
>www.electric-lemon.com




--
www.electric-lemon.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The new Dewalt batteries are A123 cells.
I think people have used the dewalt batteries in motorcycles... but
I'm not sure.

On 6/27/07, Joseph T. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I just got this idea and it probably won't work!

How about I take 4 36 volt DeWalt battery packs and use them in an
electric car!Then, I'll program the charger not to charge them all the
way to 100%. I'll need to either have a battery balancer or tend to
each cell to make sure that they are balanced.

Can someone please point out to me why this won't work?

It will....  you should be able to get about 1 mile of range to about 80%DOD. :D

(based on my calculations and the fact that the 36v A123 dewalt
batteries have a 2.4ah capacity, so the proposed pack would be
345watts roughly a 3rd of a kilowatt)
--
TEhben
'hElix EV'
evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Automotive AC is not to bad on the surge current because the system is
allowed to equalize via the expansion valve(or O-Tube)
The smallest AC units are a ton and the large units are up to 3 Ton but
newer cars are useing smaller scroll compressors by useing coatings on
the glass.

(in a 2000 and newer car, replacing a windshield with a non coated one
is a no-no)

1 ton of AC is defined as the ability to remove 12,000 btu/hour and is
use comercially as the rating 1 person puts into a closed space. I think
domestic is 1/2 that.
a 3 bedroom house has a 3ton unit a 4 bedroom house usually has a 5
ton(or dual 3 tons)

These are kinda old rules of thumb and I can say that 1/2 ton of the
newest AC on the highly insulated new homes can work if it runs
practially constant.

Draw is indeed related to temperature differential. The hotter it is the
higher the high side pressure and the more energy it takes to get it their.
Luckly, EV's don't have an internal heat source of consequence. Don't
let the car get hot and it isn't so bad. Most automotive AC's are sized
on the assumption they can bring that glass and metal down from 160
degrees F to 80 in under minutes.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So what happens if you only go to 20%DOD regularly and once in a while
go to 80%?

--
TEhben
'hElix EV'
evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thoms Edison's original design motors and generators had manual brush timing
adjustment.  See the vertical handle near the commutator:
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dedison%2Bgenerator%26fr%3Dyfp-t-501%26toggle%3D1%26cop%3Dmss%26ei%3DUTF-8&w=500&h=334&imgurl=static.flickr.com%2F194%2F445810700_66fd7ae2cf_m.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2F51884443%40N00%2F445810700%2F&size=130.2kB&name=445810700_66fd7ae2cf.jpg&p=edison+generator&type=jpeg&no=6&tt=128&oid=d7802d3ff3c08c84&fusr=imjeepnmike&tit=Greenfield+Village+Edison+Powerhouse+DC+generator&hurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2F51884443%40N00%2F&ei=UTF-8&src=p
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Dube" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 2:03 AM
Subject: Brush timing advance, nothing new :-)


Yesterday, I visited the unbelievably good technology and science museum
(Deutsches Museum) in Munich, Germany. It was a major treat to see the
first German U-boat, the U1 on display:
http://www.deutsches-museum.de/en/sammlungen/verkehr/maritime-exhibition/u1/

What I found particularly amusing is that they had mechanically-adjustable
brush timing on the electric propulsion motors. There are hand wheels that
worked threaded actuators to move the brush rigging. The range of movement
looked very broad, perhaps 20 degrees or more. Here is a picture showing
the details of this 1906 state-of-the-art brush advance system.

http://www.killacycle.com/photos/misc/DSCN1903.JPG

100 years later and we are still using the same stuff. :-)

Bill Dube'



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I finally got a reply from Electro Automotive and they don't have the
pattern for my R150F transmission and you have to get on like a 12
week waiting list :\
I don't feel inclined to ship it down to California and the wait time
is kinda long.
Making my own adapter seems kind of daunting. Is there anyone else
that makes them or a general pattern -substitute measurements- that I
can get a machine shop to make?
I need help. :'(

Thanks,
--
TEhben
'hElix EV'
evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
After looking into it . According to the Internet site I just came from..

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/eng99/eng99134.htm  
 Welding in space is not possible with current unless you provide a gas that
can start a arch.. With this same thought a controller switch sealed in a
vacuum would have no arch.. Which was the main objection.. And as far as
noise I am sure that the arch would be a good part of the noise..   Light
bulbs use to be made in a vacuum .. And they are not to expensive..

Mitchell


 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I contacted a company recently they told me 200,000 British Money I think that is around 300,000 American (roughly), for one hub motor, and would not sell it if came up with funds is the way I understood the reply.


----- Original Message ----- From: "Tehben Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: Wheel Hub Motors?


For 2 motors and the controller thats just shy of $40,000 but when you
add shipping....


--
TEhben
'hElix EV'
evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Greetings all,

Just looking for other rabbit EV owners, especially those who may have done some extensive restoration to the vehicle before doing their conversions. I'm interested in learning from others' triumphs as well as mistakes and would like to not do any work that I may end up undoing, at least if it isn't necessary.

thanks,
john - 1983 Rabbit GTI owner - colorado springs, co

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Those are only 2.4 Amp hour packs.  Four in series would give you a 144V 2.4AH 
pack.  For a typical size conversion if you assume
you want 15KWh pack, you might get away less because of the weight reduction, 
but say 15KWh. You would need 43 parallel strings of
4-series batteries. At $169 each that would be 43 x 4 x $169 = $29,068.  Thats 
not be cheap, but it would work. ;-)

Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Joseph T.
> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 5:06 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: I have an IDEA!
>
>
> I just got this idea and it probably won't work!
>
> How about I take 4 36 volt DeWalt battery packs and use them in an
> electric car!Then, I'll program the charger not to charge them all the
> way to 100%. I'll need to either have a battery balancer or tend to
> each cell to make sure that they are balanced.
>
> Can someone please point out to me why this won't work?
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just go to a engine and transmission  re-building shop that is also a 
machine shop. I have one that made me a new large flange motor coupler that 
fits my large GE motor.  They normally have engines and transmissions in 
stock, so they can make the right pattern and thickness so the motor flange 
coupler and motor adapter plate is in the same proportion to the rear of the 
engine that your transmission fits.

To make the motor coupler, they cut off a forge steel large engine crank 
flange and machine it for a taper lock coupler that fits the motor shaft and 
allows the transmission input shaft to go all the way through and insert 
into a brass bushing that is in the motor output shaft.

All they have to do to make the adapter plate is use a CNN machine which 
will copy the rear of the engine and machine it to the correct pattern and 
thickness.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tehben Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evlist" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 9:15 PM
Subject: Adapter Problem


> I finally got a reply from Electro Automotive and they don't have the
> pattern for my R150F transmission and you have to get on like a 12
> week waiting list :\
> I don't feel inclined to ship it down to California and the wait time
> is kinda long.
> Making my own adapter seems kind of daunting. Is there anyone else
> that makes them or a general pattern -substitute measurements- that I
> can get a machine shop to make?
> I need help. :'(
>
> Thanks,
> -- 
> TEhben
> 'hElix EV'
> evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225
>
> 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tehben,
They didn't have mine either.  I sent them a drawing that I made from take offs 
on my tranny.  They had their machinist build it
to my specs and it was built exactly to them.  I also provided a tracing of the 
bellhousing to go along with the drawing.  If i
was a shop doing this from drawings though I'd be leary about warrantying its 
fit though.  If you did that your better be balls on
your measurements, for your own sake.  But that applies to anyone you'd send a 
drawing to.  It would be better if you could find a
machinist in Homer or Soldotna that could do it.  If you can't find one there, 
I can give you contact info for a shop here in town
who is willing to take it on.  It would be best though if you could bring the 
motor and Tranny for him fit to.  You can do it
yourself.  If you chose this route you should get a lot of input from people 
using your same motor and from those using the same
tranny.

Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Tehben Dean
> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 7:15 PM
> To: evlist
> Subject: Adapter Problem
>
>
> I finally got a reply from Electro Automotive and they don't have the
> pattern for my R150F transmission and you have to get on like a 12
> week waiting list :\
> I don't feel inclined to ship it down to California and the wait time
> is kinda long.
> Making my own adapter seems kind of daunting. Is there anyone else
> that makes them or a general pattern -substitute measurements- that I
> can get a machine shop to make?
> I need help. :'(
>
> Thanks,
> --
> TEhben
> 'hElix EV'
> evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland,
Have you ever been to Homer Alaska? Tehben would have an easier time roping a 
moose and riding it to and from work than finding a
Tranny shop with a CNC anything, and transmissions in stock.  Or better yet, 
take his boat and hook into a 95 lb King Salmon to
ride it up the river to his back porch after work ;-P   Although I'm sure there 
is a machine shop of sorts there, and they could
probably put something together that would work, that person would need some 
pointers like yours throughout the process.  Now even
for me here in Anchorage that would be a difficult job for me to have done.  I 
asked around for mine.  There were guys that said
"aw hell yeah, I can put ya one a them there thangs togehter fer ya" and I 
didn't get many warm and fuzzies from talking to any.
But there was one guy that I talked to before, that I showed him the 
Electrabishi when I was done and now he "gets it".  He seemed
pretty gung ho on building me my next one.  Although now its as easy as you can 
get because I'm not using a tranny for the Pinto,
and the TransWarP9 has a tailshaft housing and a slip yoke.  All I gotta 
provide is standard drive shaft made to a custom length.

So anyway, I hope folks keep the recomendations coming since I'me sure Tehben 
would appreciate it.  The more we give him to go on
the more he'll have to take to a machinist, wherever he may find one.

Cheers,
Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Roland Wiench
> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 7:48 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Adapter Problem
>
>
> Just go to a engine and transmission  re-building shop that is also a
> machine shop. I have one that made me a new large flange motor coupler that
> fits my large GE motor.  They normally have engines and transmissions in
> stock, so they can make the right pattern and thickness so the motor flange
> coupler and motor adapter plate is in the same proportion to the rear of the
> engine that your transmission fits.
>
> To make the motor coupler, they cut off a forge steel large engine crank
> flange and machine it for a taper lock coupler that fits the motor shaft and
> allows the transmission input shaft to go all the way through and insert
> into a brass bushing that is in the motor output shaft.
>
> All they have to do to make the adapter plate is use a CNN machine which
> will copy the rear of the engine and machine it to the correct pattern and
> thickness.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tehben Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "evlist" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 9:15 PM
> Subject: Adapter Problem
>
>
> > I finally got a reply from Electro Automotive and they don't have the
> > pattern for my R150F transmission and you have to get on like a 12
> > week waiting list :\
> > I don't feel inclined to ship it down to California and the wait time
> > is kinda long.
> > Making my own adapter seems kind of daunting. Is there anyone else
> > that makes them or a general pattern -substitute measurements- that I
> > can get a machine shop to make?
> > I need help. :'(
> >
> > Thanks,
> > --
> > TEhben
> > 'hElix EV'
> > evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225
> >
> >
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul wrote:
It appears that the reed switch to be tested is supposed to be slid inside the coil. If that is correct, would that mean that I should put
a round core around the power cable and slide the reed switch inside
the same direction as the cable? When the power cable just passes through (or the reed switch is laid on the wire) what percentage of a
turn is that approximately?

They put the reed inside the test coil because the magnetic flux is the most concentrated there. Outside the coil, the magnetic flux spreads out and so is weaker.

If you just tape the reed switch to the motor wire without a core, it will take a higher current to pull in the reed. If it's a 10 ampere-turn reed, it might take 50 amps in the motor wire to pull in the reed because the magnetic flux spreads out all around the wire and most of it misses the reed.

A 1-turn coil with the motor wire is awkward to make; the wire is so thick that it won't bend around a tight radius like a reed switch.

To get the highest sensitivity out of the reed from a straight length of motor wire, you put a core around the wire, but put the reed at *right angles* to the wire. Shape the core like a horseshoe magnet, with the reed bridging the gap at the end, and the motor wire going through the center of the horseshoe. The wire generates a circular magnetic field around it. The core has much lower reluctance than air, so almost all the magnetic flux generated flows in it. It then passes through just a small air gap to the reed, so very little flux is missed.

I want to add a reed switch along one of my EV's motor power wires as
as part of a system to shut a Curtis controller down quickly in the
event it shorts on. The basic concept is [brake light on power] >
[reed switch] > [SPDT relay with coil diode]. The switching contact
is connected to ignition power in. The N.C. contact goes to the main
contactor. The N.O. contact is connected to the one side of the coil
and the other side of the coil is connected to ground. The brake
light on power and reed switch in series can apply power to the same
side of the coil as the N.O. contact to pull it in and the N.O.
contact will latch it on.

I think you want something like this (view with a fixed-width font):

+12v power_________________________/_____
switched by  |                NC contact |
ign.switch   |   motor wire   of relay   |
             |   ==========              |_
             |_______/________            _|
             | NO reed switch |           _| main contactor coil
             |                |           _|
             |_______/________|          |
                 NO contact   |_         |
                 of relay      _|        |
                               _|        |
               12v relay coil  _|        |
GND___________________________|__________|

When you turn on the key, both the reed switch and NO contact of the relay are open; therefore the relay is off. Its NC contact is closed, so the main contactor turns on, and you can drive.

If the motor draws too much current, the controller's current limit must have failed (say, 600 amps from a 500 amp controller). The reed switch closes, which powers the relay coil. The relay pulls in. This a) cuts power to the main contactor to stop the motor, and b) closes the relay's NO contact, which latches the relay on regardless of what the reed switch does. You have to turn the key off, and then back on to reset the relay.

If the goal is to have the brake switch turn off the controller any time there is motor current flowing when you step on the brakes, then add the brake switch like this:

+12v power_________________________/_____
switched by  |                NC contact |
ign.switch   |                of relay   |
             |   motor wire              |
      brake /    ==========              |_
     switch  |_______/________            _|
             | NO reed switch |           _| main contactor coil
             |                |           _|
             |_______/________|          |
                 NO contact   |_         |
                 of relay      _|        |
                               _|        |
               12v relay coil  _|        |
GND___________________________|__________|

Now the brake switch must be closed (i.e. you are stepping on the brakes) for the relay to pull in and latch. As shown this would be treated as a minor error; such as leaving your foot on the throttle when you stepped on the brakes by mistake. Releasing the brake pedal will immediately drop out the relay, and re-engage the main contactor.

But if you want this to be treated as a major error, then the NO contact of the relay should be wired directly from the relay coil to switched +12v, so the relay latches in even after you release the brake pedal. As for the first circuit, you'd have to turn the key off and back on to re-energize the main contactor.

In these circuits, I did not bother to show a diode or MOV across the relay coils.

 Suggestions about the amp-turn rating of
the selected reed switch would also be useful. I'm trying to get in the ball park before I just start buying parts half randomly :-)


--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No. It means a twisting force (torque) that is equivalent to a one pound
force acting at a distance of 1 feet from the center of rotation.

Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Former owner of 48 Volt Fiesta
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rob Hogenmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 4:32 AM
Subject: ft-lbs or lbs-ft


> What does a ft-lbs mean?
> Does a foot-lb, mean that something has the ability to move something one
> foot that weighs one pound?
>

--- End Message ---

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