EV Digest 6968
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Would you build if you could buy?
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Sunrise Project
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Infrared coating and airsuspension packagesSubjects for faqs
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV air conditioning, how to connect motor?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Infrared coating and airsuspension packagesSubjects for faqs
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EV air conditioning, how to connect motor?
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: n00b in your midst
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Sailboat Conversion
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: [ElectricMotorcycles] Electric Freccia
by "Mark Eidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Weird Questions
by "Rob Hogenmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Controler space
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Building A Motor
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Controler space
by dale henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV air conditioning, how to connect motor?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Nobody wants my money.. (rant for the day)
by "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Controler space
by Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Cheap
by Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Infrared coating and airsuspension packagesSubjects for faqs
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Building A Motor
by Jake Oshins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Pump for Water Cooling
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Cheap
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Motor weight
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: EV air conditioning, how to connect motor?
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I would love to be able to buy a factory highway capable BEV. I would want
a 5 passenger car with at least a 100 mile range, preferably further.
Something like the RAV4 EV would be a good fit, but I can't justify $50,000
for a used one, especially when I can't get service on them locally (there
are 2 that I know of in my state (Maryland). If I could get a new BEV for
$30-35K, I would buy one. I cannot do a conversion at my house (already got
in trouble with the county for working on my car in my driveway). Also, the
batteries needed to get this kind of performance are not available to
hobbyists, and apparently are not even available to small manufacturers, but
only (maybe) to large manufacturers who could place orders for millions of
batteries.
I think there will always be those who will roll their own, just as there
will always be those who want to customize and hop up ICEs. Look at some of
the NEDRA racers. A production EV could never do what those guys are doing.
There will also be those who will do conversions for cheap transportation,
and wrecked production EVs will be worth their weight in parts.
Dave Davidson
Glen Burnie, Maryland
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Would you build if you could buy?
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:56:57 +0000
With the recent threads of people wanting to build their own hybrids I
can't help but ask myself why? This is as I look out at my 2001 Honda
Insight that I bought brand new and still love. I always wonder why these
hybrid folks want to roll their own when they can just go out and buy one
straight from the factory. I know the main reason is because they want to
build a plug in hybrid. Still, I am doubtfull that they can come up with
something anywhere close to as good as the hybrids that can't be plugged in
but can be purchased at a dealers lot.
It leads me to the question of what you would do if you could buy a factory
EV. Let's say it was like the hybrids that you can buy now that come at a
premium. I think the hybrid system on a Honda usually costs about $4000.
It's hard to say exactly because they usually throw in a bunch of upscale
options as well to kind of hide some of the cost, but let's go with that
marketing model. If you could buy a factory built Civic, Accord, Camary,
S10 truck etc... that was just like it's ICE counterpart, but you had to
pay a premium for, what would you buy, and how much more would you be
willing to pay? Would that be the end of EVs as conversions, or would the
type of people that haunt this list rather continue to roll their own?
I know for me, I would love to have a nice mid size sedan and would gladly
pay up to a $10,000 premium, but only if it had 150 - 200 mile range.
Although I certainly don't need this much range everyday, it is a
reflection of some of the longer trips I would still want to be able to
take. If it only had a 50 - 100 mile range that would make it more of a
specialty car that I'm not sure I would be willing to pay any kind of
premium for.
damon
_________________________________________________________________
Picture this share your photos and you could win big!
http://www.GETREALPhotoContest.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
_________________________________________________________________
Who's that on the Red Carpet? Play & win glamorous prizes.
http://club.live.com/red_carpet_reveal.aspx?icid=REDCARPET_hotmailtextlink3
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John, Bob and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sunrise Project
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "JS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Sunrise Project
>
>
>> Bob Rice wrote:
>>
>> "Anyhow, IF ya wanna help the cause, send Lee some money!
>> It has been mostly Lees dime on this project. I'm
>> tooting his horn, here. He's too much of a gentleman to
>> ask. " *****************************
Yes he has been. And if anyone deserves our
support, it's Lee!! Now add he's remaking the best EV
possibly in the world and it's even more important to help
him. I can tell you more money does shorten start up time
and let's him make a living which is mostly now doing EV
design/building work for other EV'ers, builders,
manufacturers. If he could hire out the drone/body/chassis
work, allows him to do the stuff he does best and take care
of his family.
>>
>> It's easy! Just send your donation to
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] via PayPal.
>> Try 10% of what your EV saves you in gasoline. That's my
>> minimum! Lee's contributions to this list have more value
>>than that!
>> Thanks John!
>
> You said it. Good plan!EVery little bit helps!
It sure does. The best way is if some people send
in like $25-$100/month as they can afford and can send it to
his snail mail address too besides Paypal.
If it wasn't for Bob's, Lee's especially amoung
other's support, I'd be driving another wood/epoxy EV
instead of the 2 seat, 3wheel composite version of the
Sunrise coming soon!! So let's help him now, he's helped us
for decades!!
Jerry Dycus
>
> Seeya at PDX?
>
> Bob
>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks.
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 11:01 am, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
wrote:
Firestone makes the airbags. They have tons to choose from. The ones
I
like are http://www.airbagsource.com/ they have tons of choices and
can
pretty much get you started in any size project.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Frankly, I think you guys are going the wrong way with these solutions.
If you have a 120V nom pack, you can take apart a 15,000 or so BTU
windor air conditioner unit.
The compressor and motor are integrated, which at first seems terrible
since the motor is AC, but that motor is way smaller and cheaper,
largely because it is cooled by the freon running through it. Far, far
more practical design for the application.
Really if you have a 120VDC pack or more, driving a 120V AC motor is
hardly rocket science. This is a fairly simple inverter circuit as
things go, it should be able to handle somewhat higher pack voltages by
just reducing the duty cycle of the waveform but I'm not sure how much
higher. It's only 15 amps or so and the inverter only needs to switch
at 60Hz so switching losses are generally easy to manage. I might be
interested in doing this design.
A DC/DC converter could certainly accomodate higher or lower voltages,
though it's more complicated than just a 60Hz inverter. Well, the
buck/boost ratio isn't that great and that always makes these converters
easier to pull off.
These guys who pop up periodically who want to build their own EV
controller, this is the direction to send them in.
Danny
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
When I've done this - almost 10 years ago - I used 180V
6.7A Leeson PM DC motor running straight off of 120VDC nom
pack (~130V actual) It was consuming about 5.5A at that voltage
which translates to 715W which is less than 1hp. But CRX compressor
is tiny and efficient, so may not take that much power.
Starting current surge must of been 20-25A or so, but I never
bothered to measure.
Mike Chancey already provided links to these photos (thanks Mike!):
http://metricmind.com/dc_honda/hood1.jpg
http://metricmind.com/dc_honda/hood2.jpg
http://metricmind.com/dc_honda/ac1.jpg
I had the system constantly on without cycling, which was not such a
good idea, but I kept it on for ~5 min at the time and turn of by hand.
I used DC SSR to control it just by the switch on the dash - very
primitive but took 10 min to wire up, and I had cold. SSR was bolted
to the adapter plate which served as a heat sink for it.
The motor, when ran unloaded, ran at whatever RPM lower voltage
provided, but when it actually was linked to the compressor it
didn't slow down a bit as if there is very light load. That tells me
that mechanical power required was not that much (or the motor was
overkill and didn't even "feel" that load.
Today I'd do this differently, but as far as power required I don't
believe you need much more than 1kW motor to run average car A/C.
In fact 1hp (736W) is adequate for efficient modern compressor,
especially scroll type.
BTW, I don't remember having any difficulty to take the pulley/clutch
off and fit it with rubber spider coupling (lovejoy?) I bought in
Pulvis bearing. Compressor has all bearings to support its shaft,
but that might be the case for ones used in Honda CRX/Civic and not
generic case.
Victor
--
'91 ACRX - something different
Christopher Robison wrote:
On Wed, 2007-06-27 at 12:07 -0500, Danny Miller wrote:
You are underestimating the power requirements of a car A/C
compressor. While it varies by make and model and I have no hard
numbers, car A/C is sized like a huge wall unit, people have said
20K-30K BTU equivalent which would be something like 4 or 5 HP. The
draw varies substantially with temp differential as far as I know- I
saw this powering a 6500 BTU off an inverter, I got 80A @ 12V at
start and it worked up to like 120A eventually.
I've been worried about this too. I may be forced to use a belt for
this reason, so I can reduce the size of the motor pulley, and then just
deal with the underperforming A/C. At the size of my 2HP motor (5 inch
diameter, about 10 inches long, and heavy) I can't imagine a 5HP motor
of the same design.
Doesn't a compressor require a substantial surge power to turn on?
No prob if it's just a mattor of not being within the motor's
continuous rating but if it exceeds the motor's max stall torque
then the system will never get turning in the first place.
If the system is not pressurized, I believe that the compressor will
automatically soft-start as it builds up pressure over the first few
seconds of operation. I believe that building A/C units often have a
timer to prevent the system from being switched on until a suitable
delay has expired, to allow the system to depressurize through the
expansion valve, for this reason. Maybe such a timer would be in order
here too.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Those coatings make a huge difference.
I don't know why they aren't put on all cars - especially those that
will be driven in the southern states.
(Northern states might like the natural passive heating a car gets
through its glass.
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 11:01 am, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
wrote:
In searching for the Low E coating for windows I came across this site
that is of interest to anyone building an electric car. These people
added insulation and a low E coating to the car to improve the heat
retention and heat shedding capabilities in order to cut down on the
weight required for heating and air conditioning.
http://eetdnews.lbl.gov/nl2/thermal_auto.html
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 13:23
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Infrared coating and airsuspension packagesSubjects for
faqs
Firestone makes the airbags. They have tons to choose from. The ones
I
like are http://www.airbagsource.com/ they have tons of choices and
can
pretty much get you started in any size project.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of GWMobile
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 12:43
To: Ev List
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Infrared coating and airsuspension packagesSubjects for faqs
In the past two people have posted
1.
A site that makes glass coatings ofr automotive glass that reduces
infrared (heat) transmission from sunlight to almost zero inside a car
(reducing the air conditioning requirement considerably)
And 2.
2. Low cost air suspension add on packages to increase gliders
(motorless cars used for conversion) weight carrying ability so they
can
handle the increased weight of batteries.
Could someone report those two contacts and we could add them to the
faq.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think what these guys are doing is driving the compressor of an already
working AC system in the donor car. Your suggestion should work good in a
car without an existing AC system, or one that doesn't work. I think Jerry
Dycus is taking this approach in his Freedom EV.
Dave
From: Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV air conditioning, how to connect motor?
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 20:31:36 -0500
Frankly, I think you guys are going the wrong way with these solutions.
If you have a 120V nom pack, you can take apart a 15,000 or so BTU windor
air conditioner unit.
The compressor and motor are integrated, which at first seems terrible
since the motor is AC, but that motor is way smaller and cheaper, largely
because it is cooled by the freon running through it. Far, far more
practical design for the application.
Really if you have a 120VDC pack or more, driving a 120V AC motor is hardly
rocket science. This is a fairly simple inverter circuit as things go, it
should be able to handle somewhat higher pack voltages by just reducing the
duty cycle of the waveform but I'm not sure how much higher. It's only 15
amps or so and the inverter only needs to switch at 60Hz so switching
losses are generally easy to manage. I might be interested in doing this
design.
A DC/DC converter could certainly accomodate higher or lower voltages,
though it's more complicated than just a 60Hz inverter. Well, the
buck/boost ratio isn't that great and that always makes these converters
easier to pull off.
These guys who pop up periodically who want to build their own EV
controller, this is the direction to send them in.
Danny
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
When I've done this - almost 10 years ago - I used 180V
6.7A Leeson PM DC motor running straight off of 120VDC nom
pack (~130V actual) It was consuming about 5.5A at that voltage
which translates to 715W which is less than 1hp. But CRX compressor
is tiny and efficient, so may not take that much power.
Starting current surge must of been 20-25A or so, but I never
bothered to measure.
Mike Chancey already provided links to these photos (thanks Mike!):
http://metricmind.com/dc_honda/hood1.jpg
http://metricmind.com/dc_honda/hood2.jpg
http://metricmind.com/dc_honda/ac1.jpg
I had the system constantly on without cycling, which was not such a good
idea, but I kept it on for ~5 min at the time and turn of by hand.
I used DC SSR to control it just by the switch on the dash - very
primitive but took 10 min to wire up, and I had cold. SSR was bolted to
the adapter plate which served as a heat sink for it.
The motor, when ran unloaded, ran at whatever RPM lower voltage
provided, but when it actually was linked to the compressor it
didn't slow down a bit as if there is very light load. That tells me
that mechanical power required was not that much (or the motor was
overkill and didn't even "feel" that load.
Today I'd do this differently, but as far as power required I don't
believe you need much more than 1kW motor to run average car A/C.
In fact 1hp (736W) is adequate for efficient modern compressor, especially
scroll type.
BTW, I don't remember having any difficulty to take the pulley/clutch
off and fit it with rubber spider coupling (lovejoy?) I bought in
Pulvis bearing. Compressor has all bearings to support its shaft,
but that might be the case for ones used in Honda CRX/Civic and not
generic case.
Victor
--
'91 ACRX - something different
Christopher Robison wrote:
On Wed, 2007-06-27 at 12:07 -0500, Danny Miller wrote:
You are underestimating the power requirements of a car A/C compressor.
While it varies by make and model and I have no hard numbers, car A/C is
sized like a huge wall unit, people have said 20K-30K BTU equivalent
which would be something like 4 or 5 HP. The draw varies substantially
with temp differential as far as I know- I saw this powering a 6500 BTU
off an inverter, I got 80A @ 12V at start and it worked up to like 120A
eventually.
I've been worried about this too. I may be forced to use a belt for
this reason, so I can reduce the size of the motor pulley, and then just
deal with the underperforming A/C. At the size of my 2HP motor (5 inch
diameter, about 10 inches long, and heavy) I can't imagine a 5HP motor
of the same design.
Doesn't a compressor require a substantial surge power to turn on? No
prob if it's just a mattor of not being within the motor's continuous
rating but if it exceeds the motor's max stall torque then the system
will never get turning in the first place.
If the system is not pressurized, I believe that the compressor will
automatically soft-start as it builds up pressure over the first few
seconds of operation. I believe that building A/C units often have a
timer to prevent the system from being switched on until a suitable
delay has expired, to allow the system to depressurize through the
expansion valve, for this reason. Maybe such a timer would be in order
here too.
_________________________________________________________________
Dont miss your chance to WIN $10,000 and other great prizes from Microsoft
Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/aub0540003042mrt/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dan does not speak for the list, and certainly not for me. This topic
comes up many times and I urge all to check archives before re-hashing
this discussion.
This may be something we should add to the instruction page.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you need to change the rotation and not regularly reverse it, you
might get lucky enough to rotate the brush end 90 degrees.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was hoping to get away with the Mad Max look since I have no sheet
metal fabrication experience, but I just learned how to weld at a
local community college so maybe they have a sheet metal fabrication
course I could take. There are some issues with the steering and
front suspension that Paul Compton pointed out that may become an
issue, but I hope it will work as is for my daily 15 mile round trip
commute here in the Phoenix AZ area. Maybe the next project is a
trike using the same drive train with more batteries and range and
elimination of any front steering and suspension issues, and another
L91-4003 to take advantage of the series parallel shift in the Zilla.
I just ran Claudio's Zilla gauge monitoring program with the bike up
on the lift and the heat pipe cooling system seems to keep the
temperature just a few degrees above ambient....110F today loading it
with the rear brake. I need to get this licensed and insured and on
the road. Damon, your posts had a lot of effect on my decisions for
this bike, thanks for you consistent participation on both
lists......me
On 6/28/07, damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Actually, I am not so sure you do. Yours has such a unique look, that it
stands on it's own. The ones that I think look bad are the ones with either
big boxy batteries sticking out under the frame, or built with a big box
tucked in between the riders knees. The lines on the bike were all
originally curved and flowed and the abrupt boxy shapes just ruin
everything. Even though you have some right angles in your setup, it looks
good as part of the whole.
Of course, if you have the ability to fabricate some nice body panels it
probably would look even better, and with as low of lines as your bike
already has you could probably end up with pretty decent aerodynamics that
would improve your high speed efficiency.
damon
>From: "Mark Eidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: ElectricMotorcycles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: ElectricMotorcycles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: [ElectricMotorcycles] Electric Freccia
>Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 15:13:18 -0700
>
>I guess I need to fabricate some body work........this looks great.
>
>On 6/28/07, damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>Very nice. Some of you guys really work hard and get everything buttoned
>>up
>>so well. I remember when I first started building my bike and looked at
>>the
>>limited selection of EMs on the Ev photo album. There were some real
>>monster listed... still are. For a while I thought mine looked all right
>>compared to those, but now I'm almost embarrassed to be out riding it
>>around. If it weren't so much fun I might quit altogether :-) Oh well,
>>at
>>well over 3000 electric miles I think I still have some bragging rights.
>>
>>damon
>>
>>
>> >From: "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >Reply-To: ElectricMotorcycles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >To: "ElectricMotorcycles" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >Subject: [ElectricMotorcycles] Electric Freccia
>> >Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 22:26:26 +0100
>> >
>> >I've just uploaded some BIG images of the bike. It's all ready to be
>>loaded
>> >onto the trailer and taken down to the Haynes museum (yes, the same
>>Haynes
>> >as the car manuals).
>> >
>> >The BVS has the use of their little test track for the weekend.
>> >
>> >http://www.compton.vispa.com/Pictures/freccia1.jpg
>> >http://www.compton.vispa.com/Pictures/freccia2.jpg
>> >http://www.compton.vispa.com/Pictures/freccia3.jpg
>> >
>> >Paul Compton
>> >www.evguru.co.uk
>> >www.sciroccoev.co.uk
>> >www.bvs.org.uk
>> >www.morini-mania.co.uk
>> >www.compton.vispa.com/the_named
>> >
>> >
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>Make every IM count. Download Messenger and join the i'm Initiative now.
>>It's free. http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=TAGHM_June07
>>
>>
>>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Picture this – share your photos and you could win big!
http://www.GETREALPhotoContest.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm planning/hoping on using 200lbs worth of batteries. I believe I have a
way to charge a bank of batteries while the other batteries are being
drained. Hoping to use two 12 volt batteries Group 31 as one bank and
another bank being charged while the others are being used.
The initial goal is 25-30 mile range.
For me I do about 85% of my driving at 60mph. I do very little in town
driving.
The 2007 Ford Fusion currently gets around 37 mpg on the highway which is
wonderful because the sticker only suggest 32mpg.
From what I read I just need to produce around 60-80lbs-ft of torque and
that should maintain 60mph.
Most of the motors I've been eyeballing are turning 2000rpms plus. I need to
gear it down to nearly match the wheel rpm of a 24" (diameter of the tire)
at 800pms. I would preferrably like to find a motor that can bolt directly
to the wheel so there will be no loss of power, however most motors are
spinning too fast at there sweet spot to bolt directly to the wheel.
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/PARTS/EtekSpecs.htm
Kind of eyeballing this motor. (however it looks like it has to have a
controller)
I'm in the process of building a mock frame of what I'm up to. I think once
others can see what I'm up to they maybe able to pinpoint flaws or offer
improvements.
God bless
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: Weird Questions
I don't believe yo will get anywhere near your goal, in fact I believe you
will end up with lower fuel economy over all.
I gather that you are trying to do this as cheaply as possible? That
pretty much means Lead-Acid batteries.
It takes about 800 lbs of Lead-Acid batteries to give the same range as
one(1) gallon of gas.
SInce you are not removing your existing ICE system, where are you going
to put 800 lbs worth of batteries, plus motor, etc?
Can your car handle the additional 1100+ lbs of weight?
Have you considered what hualing around an extra 1/2 ton will do to your
fuel economy when you are NOT running the electric motor? Your ICE will
have to work much harder just to accelerate, to drive around at city
speeds, etc.
I'd guess that the only time you will see better fuel economy is on trips
that last at least 30 miles, but less than 60 miles.
Less than 30 miles, the extra fuel used for low speed traveling and
acceleration will offset the gains. More than 60 miles and the batteries
will be empty and you will just be hualing around a 1/2 ton of dead
weight.
So unless every trip you take is in that sweet spot, you are going to end
up with low mileage than you currently get. Plus you will be wearing out
the vehicle much faster due to all of the extra weight. This is hard on
the suspension, brakes, tires, bearings, etc.
I thought I might take a moment to explain the basis of a few questions
I've asked, as they might seem a little weird.
What I'm hoping to build is an EV-Hybrid.
The Concept.
Use an existing gas powered vehicle (in my case a 2007 Ford Fusion) to
propel the vehicle up to 60mph (legal highway speed in my state).
Once reaching 60mph, flip the electric motor on to maintain 60mph.
So basically I'm trying to learn the terminology and also understand what
kind of components I would need to accomplish this project.
Currently I'm thinking of something very simple a on off switch no
controller, and cut off switch (not sure if that is the right term) when
the
brakes are applied, basically like the way cruise control works. I would
then set my cruise control on the car at 55mph, or whatever to kick in if
the electric motor became under stress.
This should bump my gas mileage very high, I'm hoping for well over
100mpg.
Obviously this type of setup would not benefit all, but would be a nice
setup for a commuter that has a fair share of highway
traveling/commuting.
You can see some of the things I'm learning/progress at www.7change.com
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Use hydrogen. :-)
The ev250 main contactors we use are filled with it. In the absence of
O2 it doesn't explode and it helps surpress the arc.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do you mean a big motor, or a little one for a science experiment?
On 6/28/07, Rob Hogenmiller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Any good websites on teading how to build a motor?
God bless
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
i would be concerned about using a flammable gas, but
you bring up a good point, maybe use an inert/noble
gas
--- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Use hydrogen. :-)
> The ev250 main contactors we use are filled with it.
> In the absence of
> O2 it doesn't explode and it helps surpress the arc.
>
>
Albuquerque, NM
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1221
http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
____________________________________________________________________________________
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is the high pressure switch.
But I had an idea for a controller.
A simple PIC program
at on signal
rpm = 1000
rate = 10
lastrate = 10
do while on
if high pressure switch then { rpm = rpm - 10; increment =
increment + (lastrate - rate)} //or something like this
sleep 10 seconds
rate = rate + 1
rpm = rpm + $increment
increment =
send rpm to PWM out
end loop
So it increases the rpm slowly until the high pressure switch is made,
but instead of disconnecting the clutch or turning off the motor it
decrements the value that determines the rpm. the number of 10 second
loops is counted and the longer it takes to hit the switch a second
time, the smaller the increment.
kinda simple and crude, and this is just off the top of my head.
Even simpler, given a 2 speed motor and a relay with a build in timer.
On switch to timed relay defaulting to high on the motor.
When we hit the high pressure switch, we active the relay.
This drops back to reduced speed until the timer expires.
I have seen these with a knob on top for manual adjustment, If that can
be remote mounted on the dash then ocasioal adjustments can be made.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone here have experience with PHET? How is quality control? I'd like
to avoid a TS repeat.
Lon Hull,
Portland, OR
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew Drobnak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 3:56 AM
Subject: Re: Nobody wants my money.. (rant for the day)
Ian,
I've had good luck contacting PHET, and that's probably who I'm going to
go with when it's time. What were your impressions of the company? A
coworker (who is Taiwanese) noted that the stock of the parent company is
doing pretty well compared to most stocks there.
-Matt
PS On another note, I ordered my Zilla 2k 300V yesterday. :-)
Ian Hooper wrote:
So over the space of the last week or so I've been trying to buy some
motors and batteries. Who'd have thought it'd be so hard?!
ThunderSky..
Trying to order 40x 160Ah LFPs for the MX5. I emailed my contact
(Brandon), no reply. Used their online order form, no reply. Phoned them,
it rang out and hung up on me. *sigh*
Advanced DC..
I was hoping to talk to them about becoming a reseller for their motors
in Australia, since they're very under-represented over here. Currently
there just one guy over east (~2000 miles from here). So I phoned them,
left a voice mail, no reply. Used their online contact form, no reply.
Phoned them and left another voice mail, no reply.
It's a pity neither of these companies have much competition - maybe
that's why they don't worry too much about customer service..
End rant, thank you for listening ;)
-Ian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just watched the tonight show w/ Jay Leno, and they
recomended using sulfer hexafloride gas. They placed
a running stun-gun in a tank of it, and it kept it
from arcing. As soon as the electrodes reached
oxygen, it started arcing again. And, it really has a
cool effect on your voice when you inhale it.
- Steven Ciciora
--- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Use hydrogen. :-)
> The ev250 main contactors we use are filled with it.
> In the absence of
> O2 it doesn't explode and it helps surpress the arc.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for
today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
While I am no Tesla engineer.. :)
My understanding is that the Tesla pack's BMS is able to monitor
every cell voltage. The pack is divided into what they call "sheets",
long series chains of single cells with integrated BMS to monitor
cell voltages. The sheets are connected in parallel, so the voltage
of the sheets are the same but the individual cells do not
necessarily match (no paralleling of individual cells).
Intercommunication is done using CAN bus between the BMS on each sheet.
It'd be an absolute nightmare of a pack for any of us to build by
hand! The part which makes it feasible is modularising the pack (into
"sheets"), and automating the manufacture of each module.
Here's a good paper about the tech involved:
http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~hejc/papers/electriccar/
TeslaRoadsterBatterySystem.pdf
-Ian
On 29/06/2007, at 3:33 AM, jukka wrote:
It would be nice to hear from Tesla engineers (any on the list??)
how they did it. If they did invent the way how to do it fool proof
I guess they will patent it. And then we will all know how to build
packs to our selves with similar tech.
But I'm afraid there is no such innovation done. If they somehow
can keep the paralled cells in order it might just be too expencive
forever.
I believe it is possible to make an EV for average persons for
feasible price. Even today. But from small cells... I doubt it.
-Jukka
Shaun Williams kirjoitti:
Thanks Victor,
This is similar to what Jukka was explaining, I think.
It's extremely valuable information and unfortunately, to prove if
this is ever going to be something that occurs often in the real
world
and therefore justify the complications of single cell visibility, I
need to build a large pack, but I don't want t build and invest large
pack until I have a good idea of how I'm going to build it, catch-22.
Am I being overly optimistic in hoping that these fault conditions
can
be detected by constant module (group of paralleled cells) voltage
monitoring during discharge (even at rest?) and comparing module to
module voltages?
I wonder how are Tesla doing it...
On 6/28/07, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
This Roger's statement is valid assuming that failed cells just
painlessly removed from the circuit and no longer contribute as
when their series fuse blows, so there is no safety concerns.
If a cell gets damaged and there is no fuse (or it doesn't blow) the
cell may represent a resistor other cells continuously discharge
into.
Discharge current may not be big enough to blow the fuse but will
routinely imbalance the pack jeopardizing good cells unless a BMS
can
cope with it. Also, "resistor"-cell will generate heat which may
or may
not be enough to cause melting of something near by or cause its
rupturing and outgas nasty chemicals. In this case you better know
about failed cell(s) and remove/replace them.
Shaun
www.electric-echo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Firestone air bags suck. Goodyear are a little better.
I used to work for a company(for 23 years) that branched off into making
"slam bags" That is the brand. Slam Specialties.
I have seen how they are made and have cut bags in half and seen the
carnage of firestone bags when they unroll the crimp seam on the end and
fly apart.
http://www.slamspecialties.com/
Here are the most important points
The goodyear and firestone bags gain in diameter as they inflate,
the slam bags don't. They can be used in the sprink pearch and not rub.
The slam bags can safely be filled with air while sitting on the
table. The good year and firestone bags have warning labels and explode
at low pressures if not restricted.
The slam bags have a much, much higher rateing, which in the case of
our lead sleds means a smaller bag at higer pressure is possible
The slam bags are very stiff, so stiff that they have a dampening
effect, less ocsillation after a bump as the material doesn't balloon
and un balloon after going over a bump.
I am not endorsing this company because I once worked for them. I just
happed to be there and have seen the secrets.
They don't leak!
Tell Harry or Nick I sent ya. They do most of there sales thru
dealers, but some people here can easily become a dealer.
PS I bought the 300zx form Nick after he drove it 220,000 miles as a
gasser. These guys got to see this EV every day.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've seen you ask a bunch of questions in the last weeks that make it
seem like you'd really enjoy Wikipedia. Try it out at
http://wikipedia.org. There are really good explanations of all the
physics that you've been curious about, including discussions of lots of
types of motors. Wikipedia is, of course, modifiable by everybody and
sometimes its topics aren't completely accurate. But this is not so
true when the topic is essentially high-school physics. Since so many
kids start there for figuring out their homework, the physics teachers
of the world have put some real effort into it and these topics are
very, very good.
The following page, for instance, is one of the best coverage of motors
that I could want as a starting point:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_motor
It's even better if you consider that you didn't say what kind of
electric motor you want to build, so starting from basic principals will
allow you to figure that out before you research building a kind of
motor that you wouldn't ever want to use in an EV.
Hope this helps (which is the closest that I can come to blessing you as
an atheist,)
Jake Oshins
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rob Hogenmiller
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 4:40 PM
To: EV Discussion
Subject: Building A Motor
Any good websites on teading how to build a motor?
God bless
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've added water cooling to my sailboat outboard motor. I am trying to
setup the water pump for it.
I thought of just pumping water from the lake/sea, but it seems hard to
get a quiet pump that pulls up the water 5-feet, so my new approach is
to recirculate water from a 3-gallon converter gas can and put a pump
inside the tank. This makes it quiet. I have the in-tank electric fuel
pump out of my Fiero, and wanted to use it, seems to work well and is
quiet. But I'm sure it will rust if its in just water. Can I use
antifreeze to prevent the rust? If not, other pump suggestions?
thanks, Jack
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ian Hooper writes:
> Here's a good paper about the tech involved:
>
> http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~hejc/papers/electriccar/
> TeslaRoadsterBatterySystem.pdf
Great read. Thanks for that Ian!
Cheers,
Claudio
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
just throwing it outthere since most might well know but isn't the
typical dc motors grossly overweight?
cast iron housing that looks like it could hold 1000bar pressure.
given how small the shaft diameter is, isn't that hideously oversized?
couldn't the weight be halved easily?
Dan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You might try Applied Industrial. They are a large national chain and they
were showing me a ribbed belt when I got my cog belt last year. I don't
remember what "section" they had but it seems they had more than one. They
also have lots of taper-locs and sprockets etc for power transmission.
John
John Neisanger
"The Skunk" http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/751
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 6:19 AM
Subject: RE: EV air conditioning, how to connect motor?
On Thu, 2007-06-28 at 07:51 -0400, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT,
N422G5G wrote:
www.Northerntool.com has a lot of V belt pulleys for various diameter
shafts. They are keyed so they should have one that will mate to the
shaft of your electric motor. You can also try www.mcmaster.com for a
pulley. They have a wide selection.
The problem is, my compressor does not have a V-belt pulley. It has a
ribbed pulley, with what is called a "K-section" rib pattern. This
pattern, while evidently very popular in the automotive world, basically
doesn't seem to exist anywhere else. I can't find a source for generic
pulleys of this type, anywhere (with the exception of
rockymountainpowersource.com, and theirs are too large and too heavy).
J-section pulleys are everywhere, and are the only type of ribbed belt
pulley that McMaster carries.
--chris
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Shaun Williams
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 17:55
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV air conditioning, how to connect motor?
On 6/28/07, Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Has anyone connected a relatively modern car A/C compressor to a
> motor, inline? The discussion about belts and chains is reminding me
> that I need to figure this out, and I'd like to avoid a belt if I can
> -- amongst other reasons, I've still not found a good source for small
> lightweight K-section ribbed pulleys to fit on a standard keyed shaft
> or bushing. So, I'd like to have the motor somehow directly coupled to
> the compressor.
>
Hi Christopher,
I used the original ICE pulley to drive the original A/C compressor and
alternator. All that was needed was a bit of machining to bore it out
and make up a bush insert the right dimension for the motor shaft.
Most engineering shops wouldn't charge too much for this sort of job.
Here's a rough drawing I used as a guide for the machinist;
http://www.electric-echo.com/PulleyDrawing.htm
and lots of pic's;
http://www.electric-echo.com/journal3.htm
Then I just bought a smaller K-section belt to fit.
Shaun
www.electric-echo.com
--
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
--- End Message ---