EV Digest 6974
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Adapter Problem
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Would you build if you could buy?
by "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Trojan costs
by "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Max Speed of BLDC Motor
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Chains and belts (was Re: ft-lbs or lbs-ft)
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Adapter Problem
by "Tehben Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Trojan costs
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Project #3 is a Lawn Mower
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: electric bicycle - need help
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: electric bicycle - need help
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) News Flash from PIR & New World Record
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) 1st PIR Update, Plasma Boy going for 11s
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: News Flash from PIR & New World Record
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: News Flash from PIR & New World Record
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) BMS system basic requirements...Re: Cheap
by jukka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Thundersky Exchange
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Cheap
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: AGM vs Gel
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Would you build if you could buy?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Uh, Tehben, is your's a 4WD? You need to try to find out if the tranny's that
came with the 2WD is different than the 4WD. Thats why mine didn't fit the
first time. They said they had a Mitsubishi for the 2.6L, however the trannys
used were different for a 4WD version.
Mike Golub up in Fairbanks should be able to give you some insight on that.
He's running an '86 Toyota. I Can't remember if he bought an ElectroAuto
adaptor or not.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
----- Original Message -----
From: Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Friday, June 29, 2007 4:29 pm
Subject: Re: Adapter Problem
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> I emailed EA to find out what transmission patterns they have for
> toyota pickups. Usually takes at least a week to get a reply though:(
> I am also trying to find out the compatibility of my transmission with
> other engines.
>
> Thanks,
> --
> TEhben
> 'hElix EV'
> evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ya know, I am NOT interested in a hybrid. I want ONLY a BEV.
My commute is 2 miles one-way. TWO miles! A year ago I wanted to build my
own, but no more. I don't want to reinvent the wheel, I get in soooo much
trouble that way! www.gm-volt.com, are you listening? Sell it for no more
than $30K, and that's MAX, and I'll buy it in a heartbeat! I've got too
many other projects going, to try to build my own. I would not build if I
could buy. I just want that EV grin, OK? Hybrids are just a way for the oil
companies to hang on, instead of going cold turkey.
Ryan
"Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it"
- (G. Bernard Shaw)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 6:29 PM
Subject: RE: Would you build if you could buy?
I would love to be able to buy a factory highway capable BEV. I would want
a 5 passenger car with at least a 100 mile range, preferably further.
Something like the RAV4 EV would be a good fit, but I can't justify $50,000
for a used one, especially when I can't get service on them locally (there
are 2 that I know of in my state (Maryland). If I could get a new BEV for
$30-35K, I would buy one. I cannot do a conversion at my house (already
got in trouble with the county for working on my car in my driveway).
Also, the batteries needed to get this kind of performance are not
available to hobbyists, and apparently are not even available to small
manufacturers, but only (maybe) to large manufacturers who could place
orders for millions of batteries.
I think there will always be those who will roll their own, just as there
will always be those who want to customize and hop up ICEs. Look at some
of the NEDRA racers. A production EV could never do what those guys are
doing. There will also be those who will do conversions for cheap
transportation, and wrecked production EVs will be worth their weight in
parts.
Dave Davidson
Glen Burnie, Maryland
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Would you build if you could buy?
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 21:56:57 +0000
With the recent threads of people wanting to build their own hybrids I
can't help but ask myself why? This is as I look out at my 2001 Honda
Insight that I bought brand new and still love. I always wonder why these
hybrid folks want to roll their own when they can just go out and buy one
straight from the factory. I know the main reason is because they want to
build a plug in hybrid. Still, I am doubtfull that they can come up with
something anywhere close to as good as the hybrids that can't be plugged
in but can be purchased at a dealers lot.
It leads me to the question of what you would do if you could buy a
factory EV. Let's say it was like the hybrids that you can buy now that
come at a premium. I think the hybrid system on a Honda usually costs
about $4000. It's hard to say exactly because they usually throw in a
bunch of upscale options as well to kind of hide some of the cost, but
let's go with that marketing model. If you could buy a factory built
Civic, Accord, Camary, S10 truck etc... that was just like it's ICE
counterpart, but you had to pay a premium for, what would you buy, and how
much more would you be willing to pay? Would that be the end of EVs as
conversions, or would the type of people that haunt this list rather
continue to roll their own?
I know for me, I would love to have a nice mid size sedan and would gladly
pay up to a $10,000 premium, but only if it had 150 - 200 mile range.
Although I certainly don't need this much range everyday, it is a
reflection of some of the longer trips I would still want to be able to
take. If it only had a 50 - 100 mile range that would make it more of a
specialty car that I'm not sure I would be willing to pay any kind of
premium for.
damon
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just bought 20 of them from the local supply house delivered at $93.00
each.
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: Trojan costs
Hello Ben,
Several months ago, I call the Trojan battery distributor of which I
bought a pallet load of 50 batteries from him back in 2002. I paid $73.00
each with the old battery exchange at that time. Today I got a quote for
$107.00 for 50 batteries. A pallet load of 50 is the minimum I can
purchase from a distributor, other wise I would have to go to a dealer
which may be up to $137.00 each.
This is $30.00 difference per battery or for 30 batteries, that is $900.00
savings. If I only using 40 batteries or 240 volts, than the extra 10
batteries cost me only $170.00 extra at dealers prices.
Use the extra batteries for a UPS system for your house, or put on a
maintainer and use as spares or replacements.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 8:16 AM
Subject: Trojan costs
comment if you know better.
I was in line at PepBoys talking to a fellow customer who discoverred I
had
an EV thru conversation. He is a bulk battery purchaser for floor
polishers.
Of course he knew that the Trojan is the best battery out there if you
don't want to be replacing them so frequently.
So, I asked what happened to cause the Trojan battery price to skyrocket
(racketeering?) NO.
------------------------------------
He claims that because the Patent on the Trojan's has run out,
Trojan is "giving more to the sales man to keep Deka's out".
------------------------------------
I was quite confused by that comment, as I would think a open patent
would
open the market for competition.
Does he mean that, The sales man is allowed to charge a higher margin
whereas it used to be restricted.
Defies logic?
We did get talking about the new battery he wants for his floor
polishers:
LiFeSO4 Lithium Iron Sulfate, because they'll have higher power, great
recharge cycles, but it is critical to have a controller per battery,
otherwise if it gets wet, it'll dump all it's power instantly (OH JOY!)
at double the cost of the current Trojan battery, I'll hold off. but I'm
glad there's more battery chemistry development.
If the patent only recently expried, should we be seeing 220 AHr Deka's?
with 2,000 recharges? at competitive prices or other mfg's? anyone in the
battery market loop?
Thanks, Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm wondering if anyone out there knows the real maximum
speed and the real maximum current of a Solectria BRLS-16
motor. Rated is something like 5000 RPM and 240 amps
which gets a torque of just under 58 N*m. The RPM stops
climbing abruptly when it runs out of volts (all 144 of them).
Just trying to figure out whether this motor would be
powerful enough for me... and since it's a PM, I don't want
to demagnetize it. And I don't want it to fly apart. I
believe it uses Nd*Fe*B magnets. Can I put maybe 300
amps into it safely when it's cold? If I could spin it at
maybe 6500 or 7000 then I think I could live with that
power level. Of course I'd need more voltage but that's not
a big problem... closer to 190 or 200 volts instead of 144.
Also, should I worry that the motors have seen a couple of
inverter phase-leg shorts (in terms of demagnetizing it
accidentally)? If so, is is practical to pull the rotor
and replace the magnets?
Thanks!
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tooth belts are certainly more expensive, though an improvement over V belts
in efficiency. Toothed belts are also used where no slippage is allowed.
However, a tooth belt must also be kept at a near perfect tension, or it
looses its advantage in lost-power apps. Thus it works very well to replace
a timing chain. In this case, it's quieter and more efficient, but won't
last as long.
As a drive system, it can loose all advantages in the final drive. Very
heavy loads require a larger belt, which gives up any drive efficiency
advantage. As the wheel moves up and down, the centering of the driving
pulley must be 100% inline with the driven wheel. Otherwise you have a
condition of too much slack (and possibly slipping and damaged cogs) or too
much tension (and a total loss of efficiency, belt failure and/or limiting
wheel travel).
An over tensioned cogged belt will be quite noisy. In my limited experience,
a properly sized belt will be nearly as noisy as a chain and not have the
life of one. On the other hand, the noise is more of an EV sound... a
whine... instead of a harsher mechanical clank.
----- Original Message -----
From: "paul compton (RRes-Roth)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 2:51 AM
Subject: Re: Chains and belts (was Re: ft-lbs or lbs-ft)
> > This reminds me to ask: teethed belts don't require as much tension as
> > V-ones and don't slip. Wonder why they aren't used more widely? Sure,
> > alternator and A/C compressor don't require exact timing as valves do,
> > but still, is it just noise and extra expense of teethed belts and
> > pulleys, or some other technical reasons?
>
> > Victor
>
> It's mostly the cost.
>
> Lowest cost, conventional 'V' or wedge belt.
>
> Next lowest; Poly V.
>
> More grooves to cut, but quieter, more efficient and less tension
> needed. Large pulley many not even need grooves (Like Citi-El final
> drive) and can be run as a flat belt.
>
> Toothed belt; pulleys effectively gears with specialised tooth shapes,
> same production method, but no heat treatment needed.
>
> Paul Compton
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mine is a 4x4 and a V6. I think the V6 complicates things. If I am
going to get an adapter from EA I might have to swap my bell housing
with one from a transmission that was for a 20R 22R or 22RE.
On 6/29/07, MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Uh, Tehben, is your's a 4WD? You need to try to find out if the tranny's that came
>with the 2WD is different than the 4WD. Thats why mine didn't fit the first time.
They >said they had a Mitsubishi for the 2.6L, however the trannys used were
different for a >4WD version.
What did you do to make yours fit?
Mike Golub up in Fairbanks should be able to give you some insight on that. He's
>running an '86 Toyota. I Can't remember if he bought an ElectroAuto adaptor or
not.
I emailed him and asked him.
--
Tehben
'90 Toyota 4x4 Pickup
'hElix EV'
evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I forgot to mention that my batteries are T-145's.
The batteries I have are Trojan T-145's 260 AH which will range in cost from
$128.00 to $137.00 from the Dealers depending on what post you want on them.
The T-125's are $93.59 and the T-105's are $82.65.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: Trojan costs
> I just bought 20 of them from the local supply house delivered at $93.00
> each.
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
> E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 8:23 AM
> Subject: Re: Trojan costs
>
>
> > Hello Ben,
> >
> > Several months ago, I call the Trojan battery distributor of which I
> > bought a pallet load of 50 batteries from him back in 2002. I paid
> > $73.00
> > each with the old battery exchange at that time. Today I got a quote
> > for
> > $107.00 for 50 batteries. A pallet load of 50 is the minimum I can
> > purchase from a distributor, other wise I would have to go to a dealer
> > which may be up to $137.00 each.
> >
> > This is $30.00 difference per battery or for 30 batteries, that is
> > $900.00
> > savings. If I only using 40 batteries or 240 volts, than the extra 10
> > batteries cost me only $170.00 extra at dealers prices.
> >
> > Use the extra batteries for a UPS system for your house, or put on a
> > maintainer and use as spares or replacements.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 8:16 AM
> > Subject: Trojan costs
> >
> >
> >> comment if you know better.
> >> I was in line at PepBoys talking to a fellow customer who discoverred I
> >> had
> >> an EV thru conversation. He is a bulk battery purchaser for floor
> >> polishers.
> >>
> >> Of course he knew that the Trojan is the best battery out there if you
> >> don't want to be replacing them so frequently.
> >>
> >> So, I asked what happened to cause the Trojan battery price to
> >> skyrocket
> >> (racketeering?) NO.
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------
> >> He claims that because the Patent on the Trojan's has run out,
> >> Trojan is "giving more to the sales man to keep Deka's out".
> >> ------------------------------------
> >> I was quite confused by that comment, as I would think a open patent
> >> would
> >> open the market for competition.
> >> Does he mean that, The sales man is allowed to charge a higher margin
> >> whereas it used to be restricted.
> >> Defies logic?
> >>
> >> We did get talking about the new battery he wants for his floor
> >> polishers:
> >> LiFeSO4 Lithium Iron Sulfate, because they'll have higher power, great
> >> recharge cycles, but it is critical to have a controller per battery,
> >> otherwise if it gets wet, it'll dump all it's power instantly (OH JOY!)
> >>
> >> at double the cost of the current Trojan battery, I'll hold off. but
> >> I'm
> >> glad there's more battery chemistry development.
> >>
> >> If the patent only recently expried, should we be seeing 220 AHr
> >> Deka's?
> >> with 2,000 recharges? at competitive prices or other mfg's? anyone in
> >> the
> >> battery market loop?
> >>
> >> Thanks, Ben
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Etek Motor by Briggs & Stratten
http://store.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=521&product_id=4166
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Former owner of 48 Volt Fiesta
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "mike golub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: Project #3 is a Lawn Mower
> which PM motor do you have?
> --- Joe Smalley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > If you use a PM motor and power it with the
> > recommended voltage, it will
> > self govern without a speed control.
> >
> > If you use a shunt wound motor, it behaves like a PM
> > motor but you have the
> > option of field weakening to increase the speed.
> >
> > If you use a series wound motor, you run the risk of
> > overreving the motor
> > if/when a belt breaks or the clutch is disengaged.
> > If you install a rev
> > limiter, there is no problem.
> >
> > I got a PM motor for mine but have not had time to
> > install it.
> >
> > Joe Smalley
> > Rural Kitsap County WA
> > Former owner of 48 Volt Fiesta
> > NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "mike golub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 12:34 AM
> > Subject: Project #3 is a Lawn Mower
> >
> >
> > > Well, I am almost done with the 98 Chevy Metro,
> > and I
> > > have driven over 6,000 miles on the 86 Toyota
> > Pickup.
> > >
> > > I recently purchased a MTD riding mower it looks
> > like
> > > the same model as Wayland's
> > >
> > > http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/38
> > >
> > > Of course, it is still stock and has a 12 HP B&S,
> > a
> > > 38" cutting blade.
> > >
> > > So I was looking for motor recommendations. I will
> > > keep using it as a mower...And I was wondering if
> > it
> > > was necessary to put a controller on the motor or
> > just
> > > use the mowers speed control? It has reverse and
> > > forward.
> > >
> > > I also picked up a 78 Polaris snow machine, but
> > I'm
> > > not too concerned about that at the moment.
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > Michael G, Fairbanks
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________
> > _______
> > > You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with
> > AutoCheck
> > > in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
> > >
> >
> http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_html.html
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
> Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
> http://sims.yahoo.com/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've played with bikes while looking towards my next "full sized" rig.
Laws vary. In the US (in those states that allow electric assisted bikes)
it's usually top speed that makes them legal or otherwise. It's usually a
speed of 20MPH... about 35KPH. You'll have to check your local laws to see
what they request.
Outside that, motors are rated at one rating, but what they actually give
depends on voltage and the controller, it seems. For instance, my 500W hub
motor should have given me 30MPH at 48V, but actually gives about 25, give
or take. If I up it to 60V, I'll get about another 10MPH, or about 32MPH in
real world riding.
That said, unless you have some extremely wild gearing on your bike, even at
23-25MPH, you'll be providing approximately zero range to your bike... at
least not enough (I found) to be able to register. Where the human power
comes in is at the slow range of speed. Here you've basically exceeded your
batt's range and you are limping along at 10MPH and are trying to get back
home again. The other situation where it comes into play is getting across
intersections... where human power can get your started up twice as quickly.
You are talking about around 35MPH speeds. I doubt that's legal anywhere in
an unregistered vehicle, though you can get close to that (in the states) by
claiming it's a moped. I doubt most bike motors would get you up to that
speed. If you did so, you'd probably want something along the recumbent
model of bike (cuts down on wind resistance) or to build an electric MC.
...just my thoughts...
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Drysdale" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 6:57 AM
Subject: Re: electric bicycle - need help
> G'day Peter,
>
> Yeah, last time I checked the local law, powered bicycles could only
> legally put out a maximum of 200W.
> But I'm also planning a semi-large trip (one-way 1600 km / 994 miles) in
> December.
> As in, long lonely country roads, so it's not like I'll be using it to
> speed through school zones like a dickhead.
>
> Aerodynamic Drag goes up as the cube of your speed.
>
> Really? I thought it was the *square* of the speed. Glad you mentioned
> that. It's good to be proven wrong sometimes.
> You and the other bloke Mike have been quite helpful.
> Thanks.
>
> Regards,
> James Drysdale.
>
>
>
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > Well, I assume you are aware that such a bicycle won't be legal on the
roads?
> >
> > Now that we have that niggling detail out of the way. Bicycles have
> > pretty bad aerodynamics (compared to other vehicles).
> > Not much of an issue at 20-30kph, but significant at 80 kph.
> >
> > 750W will be good up to perhaps 50-60kph on flat level ground with no
> > wind. Of course getting to this speed will take a while, though
> > acceleration from 0-25kph should be quite brisk.
> > Note most human beings can put out almost 750W for a very breif time
(less
> > than a minute?)
> > The average human can put out about 100 watts for an hour or so, a very
> > fit person can produce 200-250 watts for an hour or so.
> > It takes roughly 200 watts to go 30 kph on flat ground with no wind.
> > Aerodynamic Drag goes up as the cube of your speed.
> >
> > Getting up to 80kph will require at least twice and probably three times
> > as much. Figure at least 2,000 watts.
> >
> >
> >> G'day all,
> >>
> >> Not an electric automobile, but an electric vehicle nonetheless.
> >> I'd like to create a hybrid muscle-electric bicycle.
> >>
> >> But I need some help.
> >> 1) Trying to work out how much *power* a specific 750W will actually
> >> give me.
> >>
> >> Power = (force * displacement) / time
> >> Force = mass * acceleration
> >> I am stuck, insufficient info and/or knowledge.
> >>
> >> 2) To move my fully-laden bicycle up to a speed of 80km/h
> >> (49.67miles/h), how powerful a motor will I need?
> >>
> >> Information I do have......
> >> mass = 120kg
> >> desired velocity = 22.2 m/s (80km/h or 49.67 miles/h)
> >>
> >> Where I am stuck is in the acceleration & force equations.
> >> I do not know how much acceleration and max forward velocity I can
> >> achieve with a 750W motor.
> >>
> >> This is the motor in question!!!
> >>
https://www.electricscooterparts.com/ShoppingCart.asp?ProductCode=MOT-36750G
> >> >From this page.
> >> http://www.electricscooterparts.com/motors.html
> >> 36volt
> >> 750watt
> >> 2500rpm geared down to 420rpm
> >>
> >> I realise that there are other factors here that need addressing, like
I
> >> said, I need help.
> >> Is it okay to disregard factors such as wind resistance for now?
> >> Wind resistance increases as the square of the velocity or something
> >> like that.....
> >>
> >>
> >> Cheers all,
> >> James Drysdale.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My advice... take anything from C-lyte with a grain of salt. Perhaps they
are now telling the truth... but I've found they aren't accurate... and some
of their vendors also exaggerate.
Still, for a cheap/fairly reliable solution, not a bad company.
(Needless to say, I got totally hosed by this Chinese company.)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: electric bicycle - need help
> Yea, check out the Crystalyte motors, particularly the Phoenix Racer
> motor using the 4840 controller. This is a 48 volt system bike on a
> 26 inch rim. Electric Rider carries them all.
>
> http://www.electricrider.com/crystalyte/phoenix.htm
>
> You can get 36 mph on this system using a high pressure racing slick
> for low rolling resistence. That's close enough to 40 mph. With a
> tailwind or slight downhill grade 40 mph will be easy.
>
> The lighter the bike and rider the faster you can go but with this
> motor you should use steel forks or reinforced dropouts. This sucker
> will rip up an aluminum fork. A cheap sturdy 26 inch bike would
> probably still get you going pretty fast with this system
> particularly with a lightweight Li-Po pack.
>
> The only thing about going fast is you gotta make sure the frame is
> built to handle the torque of these motors. It's embarrasing to show
> off a high speed bike only to have it disintegrate in front of your
> friends.
>
> Chip Gribben
> ElectroScooterWorks.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just received a call from "Plasma Boy" Wayland at Portland International
Raceway where he just set a new world record on his second run of the
evening. He turned a 12.140 at 107.06 mph. This is the first time that the
"White Zombie has eclipsed 107 mph. The first run was also impressive as the
car had never turned over 100 mph on a first run with cold batteries. It
turned a 12.433 at 101.99 mph. On his second run he blew the doors off the
Vette in the other lane.
This historic event is being filmed and written up by a reporter from The
Wall Street Journal. They had done an in-depth interview with me two or
three weeks ago. They are really doing their homework. The story will be on
the development of EV Racing in America and on NEDRA. By the type of
questions they asked me I feel confident that they intend to get it right.
John predicts he will break into the elevens on his third run, The new
advaced timing seems to be doing the trick and all the hard work Jim from Hi
Torque has put in. Sadly Jim is not there to view the siamese 8s in action.
John told me to give him a bad time but I think I'll let him slide. I am
sure he feels enough guilt already :-)
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just got another call from John Wayland. They barely missed the elevens
on their third run with a 12.037 at 108.56 mph. Tim Brehm had a reaction
time on that run of .002. I also spoke with Tim briefly and he stated that
the car was pulling really hard on the far end. Of course they blew off the
BMW in the other lane. At the eighth they were at 7.566 at 88.73 mph. I am
on the edge of my chair waiting for the next phone call. So far no arcy
sparky.
It turns out that The Wall Street Journal is not the only press recording
this history in the making. OPB, Oregon Public Broadcasting has brought out
a film crew. They even mounted a camera on the side of the car to record the
massive burnouts. This should be some awesome footage and a great night for
EVs.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Congratulations to John, Jim and the rest of the team! Keep it up.
DAC
--- Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I just received a call from "Plasma Boy" Wayland at Portland International
> Raceway where he just set a new world record on his second run of the
> evening. He turned a 12.140 at 107.06 mph. This is the first time that the
> "White Zombie has eclipsed 107 mph. The first run was also impressive as the
> car had never turned over 100 mph on a first run with cold batteries. It
> turned a 12.433 at 101.99 mph. On his second run he blew the doors off the
> Vette in the other lane.
> This historic event is being filmed and written up by a reporter from The
> Wall Street Journal. They had done an in-depth interview with me two or
> three weeks ago. They are really doing their homework. The story will be on
> the development of EV Racing in America and on NEDRA. By the type of
> questions they asked me I feel confident that they intend to get it right.
> John predicts he will break into the elevens on his third run, The new
> advaced timing seems to be doing the trick and all the hard work Jim from Hi
> Torque has put in. Sadly Jim is not there to view the siamese 8s in action.
> John told me to give him a bad time but I think I'll let him slide. I am
> sure he feels enough guilt already :-)
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Rod, all
What fantastic news as I sit here sick as a dog with
some summer cold that's going around here 8^(
Last John had told me it had looked like rain again
and I thought it had been put off again. EVen had I
known I wouldn't have gone over feeling like I do, but
this sure makes the sniffles and coughing just a bit
better to take, lol.
Thanks for the update Rod!
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!
http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton kirjoitti:
Jukka wrote:
You will never distribute the power evenly on the paralled individual
cells. There is just no way to compensate the drain according
the cell internal resistance.
Again, this may be true, but not of great practical significance. You
cannot get precisely equal current sharing through paralleled FETs or
diodes, etc., but it is still possible to build very reliable power
electronics providing one understands this and designs such that
everything works well as long as the parts are matched closely "enough"
;^>
FETs and power electronics are a bit different from organic materials.
Machines do not wear off so easily in mechanical work but you knees migh
become unusabel if you carry 100 kg extra weight for 100 000 miles every
year. The behaviour is not comparable.
That's the waranty time. Our customers REQUIRE at least 5 yeaqrs of
operation and 1000 cycles with 80% DOD.
But is the warranty >1000 cycles *and* >5 years, or is it whichever
comes first? ;^>
Usually OR . So which ever which comes first.
What are the specs that the system must still meet at the end of 5yrs or
1000 cycles?
This varies according the application. For different applications you
need different mechanics and other components around the cells. They
affect to the lifetime expectation.
Commuting with my EV, it would take me 2 weeks to acrue the 200mi/cycle
you suggest. It would take me 19 years to accumulate just 500 such
cycles and 100,000mi at this rate!
In your case this is not an issue. For someone other it might. 500
cycles might be a dream. I've seen unbalanced packs die in less than 50
cycles.
Think about this:
You choose in the assembly similar cells and cycle them. You manage to
get 500 cycles out and after that you get 50 % out of the pack. you open
the pack and balance it and after 50 cycles the balance is off again.
Perfect for you. But for the pretty hairdresser lady who does not know
what DC means, situation is impossible.
You take any QC passed cell with less than 10% tolerance and add it in
to te pack. You let the BMS to manipulate a reversed wearing effect on
the cells anf after 500 cycles they are in line. With less than 1 % of
differences in internal resistance and capacity. THEN pack stays over
50% of the original capacity over 4000 cycles. Even the hairdresser is
happier than EVer.
You need to know more about the use. Unless you let the system learn
your driving habits.
I choose to do it in a way that mostly the system works on learned
behaviour. Only on reguest throug user interface you can choose 100%
SOC. It can be enabled with SMS and in future through our Extranet
service. You register and login. Then you can access the system you have
purchased and even modify the GUI on the screen in your vehicle. With
certain limitations. Adn you can do it ANYTIME. Nearly everywhere.
Usability, warranty and safety. System is not just about how to balance
and keep the worst scenorios out. Agreed ?
Sorry but you are not exactly right here. It is not same.
Array with dozens of paralled cells have different resistance in
connections. Also the assembly size puts the amps going
on the end plates uneven lengths which adds some resistance.
Cells nearby the connection to other module will see a bit
higher load IF all cells have same internal resistance.
This also is true, but is just one of those details that must be
attended to in the design of the interconnections. It is no different
from needing to design the interconnection properly in a motor
controller, etc. to promote current sharing between the multiple
paralleled bus caps or other devices.
You are, of course, more intimately familiar with the internal details
of the TS 'cells', so I will not attempt to debate their behaviour with
you. You have not, however, provided any reason for me be believe that
their internal construction results in exactly equal current division
between each internal parallel cell. Indeed, the cynic might argue that
TS have taken advantage of their cells' high internal impedance to make
the variations in 'connection' resistance less significant in comparison
;^> Is detailed information about their internal construction available
to the general public?
Roger, I cannot stress enough the meaning of Lion transopr over common
electrolyte. It is essential for the operation.
-Jukka
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well Jukka, I look forward to seeing your system available over here. I can
appreciate what those
who were burned by Thundersky may be feeling, and I hope you can convince
Thundersky to do the
right thnig. You must be awfully frustrated seeing the possibilities and the
roadblocks without
being able to provide the "smack in the head." It sounds like you might be the
first to offer an
affordable pack with good capacity and longevity. Keep up the good work.
Dave Cover
--- jukka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My company Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd (FEVT) was
> established (2003) to design, produce and provide the most extreme but
> feasible Linux based BMS on the planet earth. With remote diagnostics
> and some basic AI to estimate SOH.
>
> I have office here in Shenzhen since there is a EV fleet in TS factory.
> I need to be in direct touch to prototypes when the tests are being
> done. So instead of lurking around I have now own office space to
> accommodate servers and other stuff.
>
> Vehicles are test beds for BMS for China markets. When the setup is
> ready (vehicles, motors, controllers, BMS, cells) it will be on the
> China markets in fleets. (read: thousands of EV buses with 180 kWh
> battery packs => more production => less production cost => more
> feasible EVs for EVeryone)
>
> I also have opened a production unit for battery systems in Varkaus city
> in Finland to serve EU customers. 7 people now doing their best to ramp
> up the feasibel Lion battery pack production. 1000 battery systems will
> roll out during this year. All sold already btw.
>
> We also have our own QC in China. No use to send some monday-cells over
> the half of the globe. New factory for cells could start its operation
> already in 2009. Until then we need to manage with existing solutions.
>
> CCS is Cell Control System. I renamed my BMS since there is so many
> "BMS" around that I consider to be .. say.. less technically advanced ?
> :) I feel that the term was raped and left to die. Poor thing...
>
> I showed today a PUNCH of emails from you guys since 2003 from the
> archieves. TS folks could not belive their eyes. I got a Chinese answer
> "maybe we could send some new samples so people can see how much better
> cells we have now ?". I said in Finnish way "Bull Shit". They are now
> considering my proposal about how to fix the situation even some. I hope
> we can get in to an agreement.
>
> I hate this situation because it is affecting MY sales (read:
> investment) in EU. There are hundreds of readers of this list in EU and
> they do not wan't to be assosiated with TS. Few exemptions in UK and
> Italy. But I would say that the effect is measured in millions of euros
> already. And it's not even my fault ! GGGRRR!!!
>
> -Jukka
>
>
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] kirjoitti:
> > Jukka
> >
> >>From some of your past emails like the one below I had the impression you
> > were employed by TS.
> >
> >> jukka wrote:
> >>> p.s.- I'm currently sitting in our office in TS factory (Shenzhen,
> >>> China). Any other questions guys?
> >
> > Jukka
> >
> > What is the company of yours that is in the office at the TS factory? What
> > do you do for that company?
> >
> > Sounds like you should know now if this is going to happen correct? What
> > is
> > CCS?
> >
> > Don Blazer
> >
> >
> >> Ok Vic. Now you're already saying that there's no trusting in my words
> >> either ? Are you not being a bit steep towards me here ?
> >
> >> Delivery dates and amounts will be confirmed when I have the complete
> >> list in my hand. I will go it through with Winston and send further
> >> details to people involved.
> >
> >> Also before anything happens we will confirm the pickup procedures of
> >> the old cells so they can be verified and recycled properly. If the
> >> cells are missing or such we need to see it through case by case.
> >
> >> I'm committed to this since I think I can pull this off. I've learned so
> >> much from the list and most of oldtimers here. From You too Victor. So
> >> can I now do something in return ?
> >
> > -JukkaI just saw this message. Sorry for not replying earlier.
> >
> > Me working for TS ? What ? Who said that ? I'm working for my own
> > company which is working closely with TS. Idea is to get the biz on the
> > rails in Europe. No aims what so ever for US markets.
> >
> > Currently the battery factory is running red and leadtimes are growing.
> > New production line in on the way and will enable much better quality
> > and greater volume.
> >
> > I've been working for years to complete the management system and
> > pursued only system sales. I have now also big reponsibility to
> > investors to make sure their millions are safe. In FEVT. Not in TS.
> >
> > Wild sales of plain cells without waranty is NO GO. Sooo many
> > "professionals" have had "Ooops.." -stuff going on for years. I try to
> > get that stopped. It's hurting everyone in this biz in longer run.
> >
> > I'm not referring to the group purchase since I WITNESSED the bad cell
> > delivery in Victors lab !
> >
> > I will not allow any "replacements" because it would mean the users
> > would have the possiblity to burn their houses and relatives down to
> > ground by accident. If anything happens it will be a complete system
> > with sealed cases. NO TINKERING !
> >
> > THEN...
> >
> > I let the users to tell how they feel the new sets IF I can get the
> > cells below the CCS from TS. Now that's on agenda for tomorrow
> > morning... thumbs up!
> >
> >
> > -Jukka
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ************************************** See what's free at
> > http://www.aol.com.
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tony Hwang wrote:
So would this be the proper way to hook them up?
http://www.junk-jungle.com/linked/regulator.GIF
R1 and R2 set the voltage of the "zener". You don't want or need a
resistor at R3. As drawn, and with a TL431, this "zener" can handle from
400 microamps to 150 milliamps.
If you need to bypass more current, you need to use this "zener" to
control a transistor that dissipates most of the heat. The circuits for
this are on the TL431 data sheets.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 27 Jun 2007 at 0:44, Mike Willmon wrote:
> David, how about the 8G31's? Would that be a big enough battery so as to
> handle the 300 Amps Tehben is looking at?
Probably. They have about 25% more capacity, so I'd guess that they'd be as
comfortable at 300a as the 8G27s are at 250a.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
For years I've had conversations with friends who are interested in EVs
until they find out about the range. Suddenly an EV is a great idea - for
other people.
Lately I'm finding that the word on PHEVs is getting across. Again, it's
anecdotal (and the plural of "anecdote" is not "data"), but the idea of
"drive electric as long as you can, then let the gas engine take over" has a
lot of resonance with people I talk to.
Some of this is "greenness," but at least as much is the desire to give less
trade to the oil companies, which have a certain kind of image. It's not
that they expect to save piles of money on an EV or PHEV - just that they'd
like to give LESS money to Big Oil.
What they'd pay for this is another question. I'd pay $6-10K extra for a
PHEV that could do 30 miles at 50 mph in EV mode. However, I think maybe
$5k is about tops for the average person. That's just a guess, though. The
company which plans to market such a vehicle would be well served to perform
some solid, statistically valid market research.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- End Message ---
