EV Digest 6981
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Odyne Corp. Signs Agreement to Provide Its Battery System Technology
for up to 2,000 Cars in Mexico City Fleet
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV air conditioning, how to connect motor?
by "Dave Wilker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: DC Circuit breaker
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: DC Circuit breaker
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Odyne Corp. Signs Agreement to Provide Its Battery System Technology
for up to 2,000 Cars in Mexico City Fleet
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: DC Circuit breaker
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Flooded Nicads?
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) check out electricevette.com
by "Tom S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: check out electricevette.com
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: VW Rabbits-conversion suggestions
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: article: evDaytona: electric motocycle with turgid windscreen
by "Loni" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: check out electricevette.com
by Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Wheel alignment Or How to significantly reduce rolling
resistance!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: PVC Glue
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Electric EVette
by "Tom S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Fiero conversions..?
by "TrotFox Greyfoot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Flogging a dead horse - L91 vs X91
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: J150 Battery
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Wheel alignment Or How to significantly reduce rolling resistance!
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: J150 Battery
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Fiero conversions..?
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Max Speed of BLDC Motor
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: DC Circuit breaker
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: DC Circuit breaker
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: DC Circuit breaker
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Hig perf lithium
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Motor weight
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Beth,
So Odyne will supply battery management and chargers.
Azure the propulsion systems. Can you tell us what
the batteries will be?
Jeff
--- Beth Silverman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
http://www.electricdrive.org/index.php?tg=entry&idx=more&article=1528&id
> g=1
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Plus, window units are made to be stable, not moving about. They have no
flex in the lines. This is so they can keep the gasses from escaping better
by using the harder lines.
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: EV air conditioning, how to connect motor?
With existing vehicle A/C solution you only substitute external pulley
drive with motor drive. Everything else stay the same, not requiring
re-engineering. Not that it's a rocket science but why bother if
you can reuse most of the well designed system?
With window unit you need to install whole setup - radiators,
evaporators, valves, hoses and all that stuff. Mounts, brackets, etc.
Not undoable but more work involved. Not to mention that stock
system components are already sized for the job in *this* car.
I kept most of the stock stuff in place, just moved
compressor itself. Very simple mod.
But I may agree if you create A/C from scratch in the vehicle
which never had it in a first place, window unit may be
somewhat self-contained OK solution.
Victor
Danny Miller wrote:
Frankly, I think you guys are going the wrong way with these solutions.
If you have a 120V nom pack, you can take apart a 15,000 or so BTU windor
air conditioner unit.
The compressor and motor are integrated, which at first seems terrible
since the motor is AC, but that motor is way smaller and cheaper, largely
because it is cooled by the freon running through it. Far, far more
practical design for the application.
Really if you have a 120VDC pack or more, driving a 120V AC motor is
hardly rocket science. This is a fairly simple inverter circuit as
things go, it should be able to handle somewhat higher pack voltages by
just reducing the duty cycle of the waveform but I'm not sure how much
higher. It's only 15 amps or so and the inverter only needs to switch at
60Hz so switching losses are generally easy to manage. I might be
interested in doing this design.
A DC/DC converter could certainly accomodate higher or lower voltages,
though it's more complicated than just a 60Hz inverter. Well, the
buck/boost ratio isn't that great and that always makes these converters
easier to pull off.
These guys who pop up periodically who want to build their own EV
controller, this is the direction to send them in.
Danny
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
When I've done this - almost 10 years ago - I used 180V
6.7A Leeson PM DC motor running straight off of 120VDC nom
pack (~130V actual) It was consuming about 5.5A at that voltage
which translates to 715W which is less than 1hp. But CRX compressor
is tiny and efficient, so may not take that much power.
Starting current surge must of been 20-25A or so, but I never
bothered to measure.
Mike Chancey already provided links to these photos (thanks Mike!):
http://metricmind.com/dc_honda/hood1.jpg
http://metricmind.com/dc_honda/hood2.jpg
http://metricmind.com/dc_honda/ac1.jpg
I had the system constantly on without cycling, which was not such a
good idea, but I kept it on for ~5 min at the time and turn of by hand.
I used DC SSR to control it just by the switch on the dash - very
primitive but took 10 min to wire up, and I had cold. SSR was bolted to
the adapter plate which served as a heat sink for it.
The motor, when ran unloaded, ran at whatever RPM lower voltage
provided, but when it actually was linked to the compressor it
didn't slow down a bit as if there is very light load. That tells me
that mechanical power required was not that much (or the motor was
overkill and didn't even "feel" that load.
Today I'd do this differently, but as far as power required I don't
believe you need much more than 1kW motor to run average car A/C.
In fact 1hp (736W) is adequate for efficient modern compressor,
especially scroll type.
BTW, I don't remember having any difficulty to take the pulley/clutch
off and fit it with rubber spider coupling (lovejoy?) I bought in
Pulvis bearing. Compressor has all bearings to support its shaft,
but that might be the case for ones used in Honda CRX/Civic and not
generic case.
Victor
--
'91 ACRX - something different
Christopher Robison wrote:
On Wed, 2007-06-27 at 12:07 -0500, Danny Miller wrote:
You are underestimating the power requirements of a car A/C
compressor. While it varies by make and model and I have no hard
numbers, car A/C is sized like a huge wall unit, people have said
20K-30K BTU equivalent which would be something like 4 or 5 HP. The
draw varies substantially with temp differential as far as I know- I
saw this powering a 6500 BTU off an inverter, I got 80A @ 12V at start
and it worked up to like 120A eventually.
I've been worried about this too. I may be forced to use a belt for
this reason, so I can reduce the size of the motor pulley, and then
just
deal with the underperforming A/C. At the size of my 2HP motor (5 inch
diameter, about 10 inches long, and heavy) I can't imagine a 5HP motor
of the same design.
Doesn't a compressor require a substantial surge power to turn on?
No prob if it's just a mattor of not being within the motor's
continuous rating but if it exceeds the motor's max stall torque then
the system will never get turning in the first place.
If the system is not pressurized, I believe that the compressor will
automatically soft-start as it builds up pressure over the first few
seconds of operation. I believe that building A/C units often have a
timer to prevent the system from being switched on until a suitable
delay has expired, to allow the system to depressurize through the
expansion valve, for this reason. Maybe such a timer would be in order
here too.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am looking for a suitable dc circuit breaker for a 400V EV with 400 to
500 amp for tripping. Could one of you guide me to a suitable site? I
could only find lower voltage DC ratings. Can I put two or three of the
lower voltage ones in series to get the same effect? Thanks
Joseph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I am looking for a suitable dc circuit breaker for a 400V EV with 400 to
500 amp for tripping. Could one of you guide me to a suitable site? I
could only find lower voltage DC ratings. Can I put two or three of the
lower voltage ones in series to get the same effect? Thanks
Joseph
http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Markets/Electrical/Products/CircuitProtection/DCHydraulicMagneticCircuitBreakers/index.htm
Heinemann (eaton) makes what you want. Probably the GJ1P series.
Occasionally found on Ebay. Unfortunately, rated at 160V ... but a good
place to start.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
WOW,
sure wish I could sign a deal for $2200-2500 per car
for just a BMS and charger.
with Lee Harts battery balencers and Russ Kaufmans
chargers I could just act as middle man and make
$500,000 with off the shelf parts and engineering.
--- Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Beth,
>
> So Odyne will supply battery management and
> chargers.
> Azure the propulsion systems. Can you tell us what
> the batteries will be?
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> --- Beth Silverman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >
>
http://www.electricdrive.org/index.php?tg=entry&idx=more&article=1528&id
> > g=1
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Got a little couch potato?
> Check out fun summer activities for kids.
>
http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.
Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.
http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It may not work, because the supply voltage is the same across each breaker.
The breaker contacts may not have enough clearance when opening which will
cause arc over.
It is best to have a gang circuit breaker such as a 2 pole or 3 pole circuit
breaker with common trip. Do not use those handle ties on single breakers,
because the slack causes them to turn off one at a time.
In our electrical work, we may temporary connect two AC breakers in parallel
so critical systems can still work, while we get a replacement install.
Connecting DC circuit breakers in series, the voltage across each breaker
will still read the same supply voltage. Breakers act like a wire
conductor, not like a voltage divider using resistors.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: DC Circuit breaker
> I am looking for a suitable dc circuit breaker for a 400V EV with 400 to
> 500 amp for tripping. Could one of you guide me to a suitable site? I
> could only find lower voltage DC ratings. Can I put two or three of the
> lower voltage ones in series to get the same effect? Thanks
>
> Joseph
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The advantage of NiCad's is in the longevity -- in stand alone PV
systems 20 to 30 years or more is not uncommon, compared to maybe 5
years for golf cart batteries -- and for stationary applications, who
cares about the weight or size. But for an EV, I'm not so sure they
are better, if they weigh that much. Also, the ones I've used are
pretty current limited -- like C/10 or C/5 rate at most.
To recondition them, you just put new electrolyte in. A solution of
Potassium and Lithium Hydroxide, with a mineral oil cap to prevent the
electrolyte from absorbing carbon dioxide. The carbonation of the
electrolyte is what makes periodic reconditioning necessary.
Z
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Everyone,
You can see our car at electricevette.com, or on youtube at
electricevette. If you e-mail us please be patient, as we get a lot of
e-mail, and there are only two of us to respond. Thanks enjoy.
Tom and Yvette
________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
freaky
did you make the motor controller(s) yourself?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, gear shift bushings almost universally need to be replaced on
old rabbits. Mystery shifter....... :) As far as where to find a
good rabbit donor. If anyone is around the Denver area, my friend has
a 1981 VW rabbit pickup that his mom wants gone from the driveway,
originally a diesel engine, but someone put in a gas engine, which
doesn't run. Perfect for an EV conversion. Paint is faded, but no
rust, and it has the factory topper on it too. Pics if you want.
Asking $600 OBO....
On 6/28/07, Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gordon G Schaeffer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 1:03 PM
Subject: VW Rabbits-conversion suggestions
>I would first replace the gear shift bushings. They come in a kit for
> very little money. Be sure the CV boots are good. High quality gas
> shocks and struts are important. My 96V flooded pack on a diesel
> conversion didn't need new springs, but any more battery weight would
> need them.
> Gordon Schaeffer
>
> Hi Future Rabbit Guyz;
I found BMW 526 REAR springs/shocks are a drop in fix for the rear. I had
14 batterys in the rear axle area!Newer Jetta rear brake drums/backing plate
fit nicely. Get rid of the scooter size rear brakes!that come with it.
Diseasel front springs are USUALLY enough? Coil Spring Specialties made me
NEW front springs, that took care of the droop. Asked them for 300 lbs more
lift.
Good Luck FINDING a decent Rabbit!
Bob
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.10/876 - Release Date: 6/28/2007
> 10:56 AM
>
>
--
Zeke Yewdall
Chief Electrical Engineer
Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company
Cell: 720.352.2508
Office: 303.459.0177
FAX documents to: 720.269.1240
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.cosunflower.com
CoSEIA Certified
Certified BP Solar Installer
National Association of Home Builders
Quotable Quote
"In the dark of the moon, in flying snow,
in the dead of winter, war spreading,
families dying, the world in danger,
I walk the rocky hillside
sowing clover."
Wendell Berry
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wish them all the best, but I'd have to say that build sophistication has
a long, long way to go for customers willing to spend that kind of money on
a bike. A purpose-built EV MC (motorcycle) would also limit the compromises
and handicaps inherent in modifying an ICE chassis (as is true with cars).
Lon Hull,
Portland, OR
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Wujek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 5:14 AM
Subject: article: evDaytona: electric motocycle with turgid windscreen
Electric Triumph Daytona, got $70,000 in your back pocket?:
http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/02/evdaytona-electric-motocycle-with-turgid-windscreen/
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 2007-07-02 at 19:18 +0200, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> freaky
>
> did you make the motor controller(s) yourself?
>
>From listening carefully to the home video as the car starts to move,
I'm guessing he's using a Curtis.
--
Christopher Robison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Markus Lorch
> the (main) bottleneck I am concerned about... is the batteries.
> many posts talk about 400-600 battery amps and just now learned
> that that is way too much for most 6V 160-200 Ah AGM, flooded,
> or gel batteries if one expects a battery life of 100 or more
> cycles to 80% DOD.
>
> I was told to stay around 120-160A if I do not want to buy
> batteries on a yearly basis.
>
> many emails about... 250-300Wh/mile performance with even heavy
> cars doing 40mph but that seems to be only for flat roads, maybe
> including infrequent acceleration and deceleration. I also get
> there if I drive carefully, let it slow down significantly on
> hills and do not take the charger and equalization inefficiency
> into account. I did not fully realize how much more power hills
> take and how slow an EV really gets when it hits a hill.
>
> I also don't see a good way around the power limitation currently.
I feel your pain, Marcus! It's something that most EVers run into sooner or
later. Most parts of an EV are straightforward. Available technology works
pretty well. With a little studying and careful choices, they work. But the
batteries -- aye, there's the rub!
Golf cart batteries are inexpensive and last a long time -- but they aren't
built for high currents. They are designed to supply 75a loads for a couple
hours, can supply 150a with a modest reduction in life, and even 500a peaks for
a few seconds. Using them in your EV leads to a slow heavy car, but they last
for many years and cost per mile is low.
AGMs are built for high peak currents. A common use is in UPS, where they have
to deliver 100's of amps for 15 minutes or so. But, most people rarely use
their UPS, so manufacturers only design for 100-200 cycle life. Using these
batteries in your EV keeps it light and fast; but they die in a year or two so
your cost per mile is high.
If your driving pattern requires frequent hill-climbing, but you want the
economy of floodeds, you may want to look into other types of batteries.
Flooded nicads can do it -- the drawback is that you pay a very high initial
cost for them, but they last so long that you get it back in the long run.
Another possibility is a hybrid battery pack with *both* floodeds and AGMs. The
AGMs provide the high peak currents for acceleration and hill-climbing. The
floodeds provide the slow, steady power for cruising. The AGMs are deliberately
prevented from deep discharges, to maximize their cycle life. For example, 50%
DOS floodeds and 20% DOD AGMs, or 80% DOD flooded and 50% DOD AGMs.
> Now I am not sure if the difference in technology from flooded
> or gel to AGM turns this rule of thumb upside down
I see gels as a replacement for floodeds; same low currents, same long life.
Mainly, you pay a lot more for gels to eliminate the watering, gassing, and
messiness of floodeds -- not to get better performance.
Finally, you have to be on your toes when buying batteries! Consumers can't see
amphour capacity or cycle life, and they never test or remember these
paramters. Battery salesmen know this, and so can lie shamelessly, because they
know you'll never catch them!
That's why it is important to buy from reputable suppliers, and then test the
batteries yourself anyway. Or, get test data from independent sources -- *not*
anecdotes! ("I don't need to measure 'nothin to know this here Cheap John
battery works good, it works real good!")
--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
> I've got a few PVC body parts to which I need to affix some metal
> L-brackets, which will then get bolted to the frame. One suggestion
> I got was to use Gorilla Glue. Does anyone have any other
> recommendation for a good glue or mastic to attach the L-brackets
> to the PVC?
Bonding plastic to metal is never going to be particularly strong. The
materials are too much different in their flexibility and expansion with
temperature. Shock, vibration, flexing, and temperature changes will cause the
joint to fail soone or later.
Can you make the L-brackets out of plastic too? Then you can reliably bond them
to the plastic body parts, and then use screws, rivets, etc. to reliably
connect the plastic L-brackets to the frame.
The most reliable way to bond most plastics is welding. You either disolve the
plastic with a suitable solvent, or use heat to melt and fuse the plastic
together.
ABS is pretty easy to hot-air weld. My only ComutaVan body was ABS, and probaby
had 100 feet of hot air welded seams due to all the stress cracking accumulated
over the years.
--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Everyone,
Good Guess, Yes it has two, that gives us about 1200 amps. That along with the
extreme maneuverability the car has makes it almost impossible to catch on city
streets.
Tom and Yvette
-----Original Message-----
>From: Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Jul 2, 2007 1:38 PM
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: Re: check out electricevette.com
>
>On Mon, 2007-07-02 at 19:18 +0200, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
>> freaky
>>
>> did you make the motor controller(s) yourself?
>>
>
>>From listening carefully to the home video as the car starts to move,
>I'm guessing he's using a Curtis.
>
>--
>Christopher Robison
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
>
________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm interested in hearing from those who have built, or own, Fiero
conversions. My daily driver is an '88 Red 5spd Formula that I love
to pieces (sometimes literally.) I am convinced that I should be
driving an EV (at least, once I have a place to plug it in) so I have
been researching options to that end.
Originally the plan was to get a decently reliable ICE to drive while
I fix the ills my 18 yr old P-car has and then begin conversion of the
ICE car to a BEV. The Fiero would then be available for moderate
hot-rodding as my play car. the whole point of me having a BEV though
is for my commute. The wife has nixed me owning any more 2-seaters so
that means any ICE conversion would require the back seat to remain
usable.
In East Tennessee.
With a >30 mile one-way commute.
With no likely option of plugging in at work... (government job)
So maybe I should convert the Fiero to a quick BEV with some variety
of regen (for the mountains) and get another 4-door car for longer
drives. Maybe a Prius or similar eventually.
So... I need to know about Fiero conversions. The Good, the bad, and
the moderately unattractive. : ]
Trot, the hard-cornering, fox...
--
| /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember,
| ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a
| >\_/< [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ian,
>From looking at the same data you are and using the
fact that Lee says that the X91 has more armature
turns, this is my take.
X91 has 87 lb.ft. at 400 amps,
L91 has 60 lb.ft. at 400 amps
--- Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> *sigh* Sorry, I'm still confused..
>
> So the X91 produces more torque at a given voltage
> (drawing more
> current)?
I'd say that at a given voltage, X91 produces more
torque per amp. Really the torque per amp is
independant of voltage.
> But then, this document suggests the L91
> can handle more
> current,
Yes, the L91 has fewer armature turns and therefore
larger conductors, and can handle more current for
similar ratings.
L91 can do 150 amps for one hour,
X91 can do 120 amps for one hour,
Both at 91 vols.
> and has higher peak HP:
Yes, this would follow. L91 has less resistance and
higher speeds so would probably have a higher peak
power, at the same source voltage.
>
> http://www.evparts.com/shopping/products/mt2115/
> mt2115peakmotoroutput.PDF
>
> Meanwhile evparts.com says the L91 is only rated to
> 120V while the
> X91 is rated to 144V?
The motor with the higher number of comm bars (X91)
would probably be rated for higher voltage for similar
commutation (sparking) and brush life.
> I thought it'd be the other
> way around, hmm.
>
> What would ye experts recommend as the best pair of
> 6.7s to
> complement a 128V lithium pack rated to 1600 amps?
I guess it depends on your design objectives and
system details. Like performance (top speed,
acceleration, life, duty cycle, etc.) and gear ratio,
shift speeds, motor cooling, etc. My take is that the
L91 is higher performance and the X91 longer lived for
a preselected voltage and current limit.
For similar life, you could run the X91 at higher
voltage and lower current limit than the L91, then the
performance would be about equal.
Hope this helps.
Jeff
>
> -Ian
>
> PS: Congrats to everyone involved with White Zombie,
> what a great
> milestone!
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joseph T. wrote:
> Is the J150 as reliable as the 6 volt battery?
That's the promise, but I don't know of anyone who has run a set long
enough to know.
Robert Chew wrote:
> Yeah 6 volters would be better. Easier to handle in and out
> of the car.
Not really. ;^> The J150 and T1275 flooded 12Vers weigh in at about
80lbs, which is just a bit more than a single 6V T145 (a fair comparison
since the J150 & T1275 have about half the capacity of the T145). The
12Vers are a bit longer and shorter than the 6Ver.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, batteries are not perfect. Pretty much everything you're saying
is correct, except that flooded batteries do not last a long time.
Flooded 6 volt batteries do last a very long time, and do have very
bad performance.
On 7/2/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: Markus Lorch
> the (main) bottleneck I am concerned about... is the batteries.
> many posts talk about 400-600 battery amps and just now learned
> that that is way too much for most 6V 160-200 Ah AGM, flooded,
> or gel batteries if one expects a battery life of 100 or more
> cycles to 80% DOD.
>
> I was told to stay around 120-160A if I do not want to buy
> batteries on a yearly basis.
>
> many emails about... 250-300Wh/mile performance with even heavy
> cars doing 40mph but that seems to be only for flat roads, maybe
> including infrequent acceleration and deceleration. I also get
> there if I drive carefully, let it slow down significantly on
> hills and do not take the charger and equalization inefficiency
> into account. I did not fully realize how much more power hills
> take and how slow an EV really gets when it hits a hill.
>
> I also don't see a good way around the power limitation currently.
I feel your pain, Marcus! It's something that most EVers run into sooner or
later. Most parts of an EV are straightforward. Available technology works
pretty well. With a little studying and careful choices, they work. But the
batteries -- aye, there's the rub!
Golf cart batteries are inexpensive and last a long time -- but they aren't
built for high currents. They are designed to supply 75a loads for a couple
hours, can supply 150a with a modest reduction in life, and even 500a peaks for
a few seconds. Using them in your EV leads to a slow heavy car, but they last
for many years and cost per mile is low.
AGMs are built for high peak currents. A common use is in UPS, where they have
to deliver 100's of amps for 15 minutes or so. But, most people rarely use
their UPS, so manufacturers only design for 100-200 cycle life. Using these
batteries in your EV keeps it light and fast; but they die in a year or two so
your cost per mile is high.
If your driving pattern requires frequent hill-climbing, but you want the
economy of floodeds, you may want to look into other types of batteries.
Flooded nicads can do it -- the drawback is that you pay a very high initial
cost for them, but they last so long that you get it back in the long run.
Another possibility is a hybrid battery pack with *both* floodeds and AGMs. The
AGMs provide the high peak currents for acceleration and hill-climbing. The
floodeds provide the slow, steady power for cruising. The AGMs are deliberately
prevented from deep discharges, to maximize their cycle life. For example, 50%
DOS floodeds and 20% DOD AGMs, or 80% DOD flooded and 50% DOD AGMs.
> Now I am not sure if the difference in technology from flooded
> or gel to AGM turns this rule of thumb upside down
I see gels as a replacement for floodeds; same low currents, same long life.
Mainly, you pay a lot more for gels to eliminate the watering, gassing, and
messiness of floodeds -- not to get better performance.
Finally, you have to be on your toes when buying batteries! Consumers can't see
amphour capacity or cycle life, and they never test or remember these
paramters. Battery salesmen know this, and so can lie shamelessly, because they
know you'll never catch them!
That's why it is important to buy from reputable suppliers, and then test the batteries
yourself anyway. Or, get test data from independent sources -- *not* anecdotes! ("I
don't need to measure 'nothin to know this here Cheap John battery works good, it works
real good!")
--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
So a J150 or T1275 is a battery with all the durability off 6 volts,
and all the power of 12 volts?
On 7/2/07, Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Joseph T. wrote:
> Is the J150 as reliable as the 6 volt battery?
That's the promise, but I don't know of anyone who has run a set long
enough to know.
Robert Chew wrote:
> Yeah 6 volters would be better. Easier to handle in and out
> of the car.
Not really. ;^> The J150 and T1275 flooded 12Vers weigh in at about
80lbs, which is just a bit more than a single 6V T145 (a fair comparison
since the J150 & T1275 have about half the capacity of the T145). The
12Vers are a bit longer and shorter than the 6Ver.
Cheers,
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
There are a number of electric fieros if you scan the evalbum.
They make really good EVs in my opinion. They are small and relatively
light yet have a beefy suspension and brakes, unlike other small cars of
similiar weight, and has a fairly heavy engine to remove.
And lots of room outside the passenger compartment for batteries.
And manual steering. I'd really like is to have manual brakes for mine
also to avoid the vaccum pump, so if any other Fiero owners might have
input on that I'd appreciate it.
I've got a contact controller setup in it right now.
Jack
TrotFox Greyfoot wrote:
I'm interested in hearing from those who have built, or own, Fiero
conversions. My daily driver is an '88 Red 5spd Formula that I love
to pieces (sometimes literally.) I am convinced that I should be
driving an EV (at least, once I have a place to plug it in) so I have
been researching options to that end.
Originally the plan was to get a decently reliable ICE to drive while
I fix the ills my 18 yr old P-car has and then begin conversion of the
ICE car to a BEV. The Fiero would then be available for moderate
hot-rodding as my play car. the whole point of me having a BEV though
is for my commute. The wife has nixed me owning any more 2-seaters so
that means any ICE conversion would require the back seat to remain
usable.
In East Tennessee.
With a >30 mile one-way commute.
With no likely option of plugging in at work... (government job)
So maybe I should convert the Fiero to a quick BEV with some variety
of regen (for the mountains) and get another 4-door car for longer
drives. Maybe a Prius or similar eventually.
So... I need to know about Fiero conversions. The Good, the bad, and
the moderately unattractive. : ]
Trot, the hard-cornering, fox...
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dale,
I don't know much about this particular motor, so
can't comment on RPM and amps. But, I do think that a
fixture (like a press) is needed to remove and install
the rotor on large PMSM. And replace the magnets?
Where would you get a replacement? If you could get a
replacement magnet, they could probably remagnetize
the rotor for you. It would probably have to be the
original manufacturer. On the other hand, I doubt the
inverter phase short demagnetized it. Just a guess.
If you have the motor, try running an Eg test.
Jeff
--- Dale Ulan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm wondering if anyone out there knows the real
> maximum
> speed and the real maximum current of a Solectria
> BRLS-16
> motor. Rated is something like 5000 RPM and 240 amps
> which gets a torque of just under 58 N*m. The RPM
> stops
> climbing abruptly when it runs out of volts (all 144
> of them).
> Just trying to figure out whether this motor would
> be
> powerful enough for me... and since it's a PM, I
> don't want
> to demagnetize it. And I don't want it to fly apart.
> I
> believe it uses Nd*Fe*B magnets. Can I put maybe 300
> amps into it safely when it's cold? If I could spin
> it at
> maybe 6500 or 7000 then I think I could live with
> that
> power level. Of course I'd need more voltage but
> that's not
> a big problem... closer to 190 or 200 volts instead
> of 144.
>
> Also, should I worry that the motors have seen a
> couple of
> inverter phase-leg shorts (in terms of demagnetizing
> it
> accidentally)? If so, is is practical to pull the
> rotor
> and replace the magnets?
>
> Thanks!
>
> -Dale
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Can I put two or three of the lower voltage ones in series to get
the same effect?
High voltage DC circuit breakers, switches, and contactors are almost
always made by putting enough lower-voltage contacts in series. For
example, if one switch contact is rated at 100v, then 2 in series are
good for 200v, 3 in series are 300v, etc. If it's a circuit breaker,
you'll see 2 or 3 poles all wired in series, and tripped by a common
handle or other mechanical connection between them.
Roland is right that completely independent breakers with a commoning
bar between them don't always open at exactly the same time. However,
the time difference between when one trips and the connected ones trip
is very short; a small fraction of a second. The contacts are built to
survive that short period of arcing.
Don't try putting fuses in series to increase their voltage rating,
though. It won't work!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Roland, Will it work if I put the circuit breakers between battery
chains, ie split the pack into 2 or three electrical units and use the
breakers in series? Then each of them will have only about 120 volts
across terminals.
Joseph
> It may not work, because the supply voltage is the same across each
> breaker. The breaker contacts may not have enough clearance when
> opening which will cause arc over.
>
> It is best to have a gang circuit breaker such as a 2 pole or 3 pole
> circuit breaker with common trip. Do not use those handle ties on
> single breakers, because the slack causes them to turn off one at a
> time.
>
> In our electrical work, we may temporary connect two AC breakers in
> parallel so critical systems can still work, while we get a replacement
> install.
>
> Connecting DC circuit breakers in series, the voltage across each
> breaker will still read the same supply voltage. Breakers act like a
> wire conductor, not like a voltage divider using resistors.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 9:31 AM
> Subject: Re: DC Circuit breaker
>
>
>> I am looking for a suitable dc circuit breaker for a 400V EV with 400
>> to 500 amp for tripping. Could one of you guide me to a suitable site?
>> I could only find lower voltage DC ratings. Can I put two or three of
>> the lower voltage ones in series to get the same effect? Thanks
>>
>> Joseph
>>
>>
>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, as long as the voltage does not go over the rating of the circuit
breaker. Some breakers are design with a 125 percent demand factor, meaning
that 1.25 x 120 = 150 volts. The maximum voltage we use on a 120 volt rated
circuit breaker is about 130 volts on transformers that are tapped at 130
volts at no load.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: DC Circuit breaker
> Hi Roland, Will it work if I put the circuit breakers between battery
> chains, ie split the pack into 2 or three electrical units and use the
> breakers in series? Then each of them will have only about 120 volts
> across terminals.
>
> Joseph
>
> > It may not work, because the supply voltage is the same across each
> > breaker. The breaker contacts may not have enough clearance when
> > opening which will cause arc over.
> >
> > It is best to have a gang circuit breaker such as a 2 pole or 3 pole
> > circuit breaker with common trip. Do not use those handle ties on
> > single breakers, because the slack causes them to turn off one at a
> > time.
> >
> > In our electrical work, we may temporary connect two AC breakers in
> > parallel so critical systems can still work, while we get a replacement
> > install.
> >
> > Connecting DC circuit breakers in series, the voltage across each
> > breaker will still read the same supply voltage. Breakers act like a
> > wire conductor, not like a voltage divider using resistors.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 9:31 AM
> > Subject: Re: DC Circuit breaker
> >
> >
> >> I am looking for a suitable dc circuit breaker for a 400V EV with 400
> >> to 500 amp for tripping. Could one of you guide me to a suitable site?
> >> I could only find lower voltage DC ratings. Can I put two or three of
> >> the lower voltage ones in series to get the same effect? Thanks
> >>
> >> Joseph
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I'm sorry if this has been covered but has anyone been able to buy some
of the newer high performance lithiums like the A123?
if so from where and for how much
although it's speculation, some numbers around 20-40k$ for the cells in
the tesla pack have been floating around and if real that would mean
that a 10-15kWh pack might be doable for a lot of people (5-10k$). it
might not be longer range than lead acid but they would weigh a lot less
and more importantly last a lot longer
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
The two large field coils makes the back iron requirement large on a
dc motor. In an AC induction motor the 24 to 36 coils and rotating
magnetic field make the back iron requirement way smaller. The trade
off is that laminations are required to prevent eddy currents.
http://www.metricmind.com/images/stator_complete.jpg
No; this isn't the case Jeff.
Let's assume we're talking about a 4-pole motor. The magnetic path has
to travel 1/4th away around to get from one pole to the next, for either
an AC or DC motor.
You'll notice in that picture that there is *still* a 1/2" thick layer
of iron all the way around the outside for the stator windings. It's
just that in an AC motor, this iron is part of the stator stack of
laminations. It all has to be laminated, because the magnetic field is
AC in a an AC motor.
In a DC motor, the outside (field) windings only carry DC, so they don't
have to be laminated. This 1/2" thick band of iron only needs to be as
long as the pole pieces themselves; but for easy construction they
usually use a much longer iron tube, to reach all the way to the end bells.
Note: If you are going to use a PWM controller with a DC motor, then you
have to laminate the field pole pieces anyway, because the controller is
applying AC to the field (the controller is using the field windings as
its inductor).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
