EV Digest 6984

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Zilla emergency shutdown
        by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: might be the electric car of the future
        by "Tom S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) RE: EV air conditioning, how to connect motor?
        by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) RE: PVC Glue
        by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: Evette
        by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Zilla emergency shutdown
        by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) RE: Max Speed of BLDC Motor
        by Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: PVC Glue
        by "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) RE: Max Speed of BLDC Motor - Magnaview paper
        by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: battery carrying straps wtb??
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Wheel alignment Or How to significantly reduce rolling resistance!
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: Poles And Phases
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) RE: Max Speed of BLDC Motor
        by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: Evette
        by "Tom S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: Wheel alignment Or How to significantly reduce rolling      
resistance! .. hill climbing ..
        by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: tesla car .. tango .. motor ?
        by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: might be the electric car of the future
        by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: tesla car .. tango .. motor ?
        by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: Motor weight
        by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: Honda Insight
        by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I have to provide a means to shut down my car in an emergency. The state wants 
me to provide a way
for emergency personel to shut 'er down if I run into a tree. The emergency 
people want to be sure
that the pack is positively disconnected, which means the contactors are open. 
My preference is to
interrupt the power at the 12 volt level so the controller will shut itself 
down. I have my eye on
one of those big red buttons you mash to kill things. I'd place it in a very 
prominent location
under the hood to give them the warm and fuzzies. They can also just turn off 
the key in the
ignition.

Parameters:
1 - protect the Zilla
2 - sacrifice the contactors if need be
3 - make sure the system shuts down and contactors open

I have a very standard configuration with one exception. I have an additional 
contactor on the
negative side of the pack which is energized when the key switch goes to the on 
position. I use
the start position to tell the Zilla to start up, and it decides when to pull 
in the positive side
contactor.

1. Can I use the kill switch to open the negative side contactor? It will zorch 
the contactor if
it's carrying current, but will the Zilla suffer?

2. Should I interrupt the 12 volt directly to the Zilla pin 3, Key Input (just 
like turning off
the key)? What will happen if under power?

3. Is there a specific connection on the Zilla for this purpose?

Thanks

Dave Cover

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Greyfoot,

For higher speeds we can put on a wheely bar.In general its not needed.

Occasionally motor has gone out, nothing much happens, inertia kicks in and I 
steer it to a stop with left and right brake.
 
Front brake on this car is not a good idea, using plug braking, and feft and 
right brake works fine.

Its a Lamborghini.

Tom Sines
-----Original Message-----
>From: TrotFox Greyfoot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Jul 3, 2007 7:35 AM
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: Re: might be the electric car of the future
>
>So... how do you keep the front end on the ground at speed?  I see no
>front-end spoiler for lift compensation and in the video where you
>turned the car in the street the front end was bouncing badly.
>
>Have you given any thought to the age old, "what if my controller
>failed open" possibility?  With dual motor drive and differential
>steering that could make a mess of your day in a hurry.
>
>Does the front wheel have a brake?  If not you're not going to have
>very good stopping performance in emergency situations.  Weight
>transfer is not your friend when there's no front brake!
>
>Is the body from a Fiero rebody kit?
>
>Trot, the curious, fox...
>
>On 7/3/07, Tom S. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Hi Peekee,
>>
>> Good to hear from you. The car is experimental so we use different motors, 
>> that this time we`re using smaller motors to make the car less expensive, 
>> the car doesn`t care that much.
>>
>> The wheels are independent.
>>
>> Yes two curtis, two zillas would made this car go like a scalded duck.
>>
>> The car will take up to 40 batteries, we hook them up various ways.
>>
>> disc brakes.
>>
>> front wheel is not really a load bearing wheel, nor does it steer the car.
>>
>> Tom Sines
>
>
>-- 
>|  /\_/\       TrotFox         \ Always remember,
>| ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a
>|  >\_/<       [EMAIL PROTECTED]       \ third alternative."
>


________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought about that.  Using a window unit taken apart will need to have
some flex lines installed.  The blower unit can be mounted inside and
then flex lines made to get to the compressor and the condensor outside.


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave Wilker
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 11:33
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV air conditioning, how to connect motor?

Plus, window units are made to be stable, not moving about. They have no
flex in the lines. This is so they can keep the gasses from escaping
better by using the harder lines.



David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)


----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: EV air conditioning, how to connect motor?


> With existing vehicle A/C solution you only substitute external pulley
> drive with motor drive. Everything else stay the same, not requiring
> re-engineering. Not that it's a rocket science but why bother if
> you can reuse most of the well designed system?
>
> With window unit you need to install whole  setup - radiators,
> evaporators, valves, hoses and all that stuff. Mounts, brackets, etc.
> Not undoable but more work involved. Not to mention that stock
> system components are already sized for the job in *this* car.
>
> I kept most of the stock stuff in place, just moved
> compressor itself. Very simple mod.
>
> But I may agree if you create A/C from scratch in the vehicle
> which never had it in a first place, window unit may be
> somewhat self-contained OK solution.
>
> Victor
>
> Danny Miller wrote:
>> Frankly, I think you guys are going the wrong way with these
solutions.
>>
>> If you have a 120V nom pack, you can take apart a 15,000 or so BTU
windor 
>> air conditioner unit.
>> The compressor and motor are integrated, which at first seems
terrible 
>> since the motor is AC, but that motor is way smaller and cheaper,
largely 
>> because it is cooled by the freon running through it.  Far, far more 
>> practical design for the application.
>>
>> Really if you have a 120VDC pack or more, driving a 120V AC motor is 
>> hardly rocket science.  This is a fairly simple inverter circuit as 
>> things go, it should be able to handle somewhat higher pack voltages
by 
>> just reducing the duty cycle of the waveform but I'm not sure how
much 
>> higher.  It's only 15 amps or so and the inverter only needs to
switch at 
>> 60Hz so switching losses are generally easy to manage.  I might be 
>> interested in doing this design.
>>
>> A DC/DC converter could certainly accomodate higher or lower
voltages, 
>> though it's more complicated than just a 60Hz inverter.  Well, the 
>> buck/boost ratio isn't that great and that always makes these
converters 
>> easier to pull off.
>>
>> These guys who pop up periodically who want to build their own EV 
>> controller, this is the direction to send them in.
>>
>> Danny
>>
>> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>>
>>> When I've done this - almost 10 years ago - I used 180V
>>> 6.7A Leeson PM DC motor running straight off of 120VDC nom
>>> pack (~130V actual) It was consuming about 5.5A at that voltage
>>> which translates to 715W which is less than 1hp. But CRX compressor
>>> is tiny and efficient, so may not take that much power.
>>> Starting current surge must of been 20-25A or so, but I never
>>> bothered to measure.
>>>
>>> Mike Chancey already provided links to these photos (thanks Mike!):
>>>
>>> http://metricmind.com/dc_honda/hood1.jpg
>>> http://metricmind.com/dc_honda/hood2.jpg
>>> http://metricmind.com/dc_honda/ac1.jpg
>>>
>>> I had the system constantly on without cycling, which was not such a

>>> good idea, but I kept it on for ~5 min at the time and turn of by
hand.
>>> I used DC SSR to control it just by the switch on the dash - very 
>>> primitive but took 10 min to wire up, and I had cold. SSR was bolted
to 
>>> the adapter plate which served as a heat sink for it.
>>>
>>> The motor, when ran unloaded, ran at whatever RPM lower voltage
>>> provided, but when it actually was linked to the compressor it
>>> didn't slow down a bit as if there is very light load. That tells me
>>> that mechanical power required was not that much (or the motor was
>>> overkill and didn't even "feel" that load.
>>>
>>> Today I'd do this differently, but as far as power required I don't 
>>> believe you need much more than 1kW motor to run average car A/C.
>>> In fact 1hp (736W) is adequate for efficient modern compressor, 
>>> especially scroll type.
>>>
>>> BTW, I don't remember having any difficulty to take the
pulley/clutch
>>> off and fit it with rubber spider coupling (lovejoy?) I bought in
>>> Pulvis bearing. Compressor has all bearings to support its shaft,
>>> but that might be the case for ones used in Honda CRX/Civic and not
>>> generic case.
>>>
>>> Victor
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> '91 ACRX - something different
>>>
>>> Christopher Robison wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 2007-06-27 at 12:07 -0500, Danny Miller wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You are underestimating the power requirements of a car A/C 
>>>>> compressor.  While it varies by make and model and I have no hard 
>>>>> numbers, car A/C is sized like a huge wall unit, people have said 
>>>>> 20K-30K BTU equivalent which would be something like 4 or 5 HP.
The 
>>>>> draw varies substantially with temp differential as far as I know-
I 
>>>>> saw this powering a 6500 BTU off an inverter, I got 80A @ 12V at
start 
>>>>> and it worked up to like 120A eventually.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've been worried about this too.  I may be forced to use a belt
for
>>>> this reason, so I can reduce the size of the motor pulley, and then

>>>> just
>>>> deal with the underperforming A/C.  At the size of my 2HP motor (5
inch
>>>> diameter, about 10 inches long, and heavy) I can't imagine a 5HP
motor
>>>> of the same design.
>>>>
>>>>> Doesn't a compressor require a substantial surge power to turn on?

>>>>> No prob if it's just a mattor of not being within the motor's 
>>>>> continuous rating but if it exceeds the motor's max stall torque
then 
>>>>> the system will never get turning in the first place.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If the system is not pressurized, I believe that the compressor
will
>>>> automatically soft-start as it builds up pressure over the first
few
>>>> seconds of operation.  I believe that building A/C units often have
a
>>>> timer to prevent the system from being switched on until a suitable
>>>> delay has expired, to allow the system to depressurize through the
>>>> expansion valve, for this reason. Maybe such a timer would be in
order
>>>> here too.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
> 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
JB weld does a great job.  It will bond to anything. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 13:58
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: PVC Glue

Bill Dennis wrote:
> I've got a few PVC body parts to which I need to affix some metal 
> L-brackets, which will then get bolted to the frame. One suggestion I 
> got was to use Gorilla Glue. Does anyone have any other recommendation

> for a good glue or mastic to attach the L-brackets to the PVC?

Bonding plastic to metal is never going to be particularly strong. The
materials are too much different in their flexibility and expansion with
temperature. Shock, vibration, flexing, and temperature changes will
cause the joint to fail soone or later.

Can you make the L-brackets out of plastic too? Then you can reliably
bond them to the plastic body parts, and then use screws, rivets, etc.
to reliably connect the plastic L-brackets to the frame.

The most reliable way to bond most plastics is welding. You either
disolve the plastic with a suitable solvent, or use heat to melt and
fuse the plastic together.

ABS is pretty easy to hot-air weld. My only ComutaVan body was ABS, and
probaby had 100 feet of hot air welded seams due to all the stress
cracking accumulated over the years.


--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- It's a funny car but it seems like a very dangerous configuration. have you tried driving it at high way speeds? not sure but seems to me that the slighest flick of the hand at full speed could be fatal, let alone an actual failure in the controllers.

Dan

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Dave,

I use one of those large 12 volt 500 amp rated red flag handle switches that 
is under the hood to kill all the main 12 volt power from its source. You 
can get one of these switches from a auto parts store.

Also, I have four more 12 volt control power switches in addition to the 
standard ignition switch, on the console which kills the ignition circuits 
and shuts down the main contactor and two more safety contactors that open 
up the battery circuit to the controller. These switches are all in a roll 
and I can sweep my hand over any one of these switches without looking which 
drops opens all the contactors.

In my EV, I have a back up to the back up in my circuits. If one control 
switch fails, I have backup indicator switches to replace that switch, 
circuit and fuse.

If you shut down under power and at a high load, than you may get arcing at 
one of the contactors while it opens.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 6:08 AM
Subject: Zilla emergency shutdown


> I have to provide a means to shut down my car in an emergency. The state 
> wants me to provide a way
> for emergency personel to shut 'er down if I run into a tree. The 
> emergency people want to be sure
> that the pack is positively disconnected, which means the contactors are 
> open. My preference is to
> interrupt the power at the 12 volt level so the controller will shut 
> itself down. I have my eye on
> one of those big red buttons you mash to kill things. I'd place it in a 
> very prominent location
> under the hood to give them the warm and fuzzies. They can also just turn 
> off the key in the
> ignition.
>
> Parameters:
> 1 - protect the Zilla
> 2 - sacrifice the contactors if need be
> 3 - make sure the system shuts down and contactors open
>
> I have a very standard configuration with one exception. I have an 
> additional contactor on the
> negative side of the pack which is energized when the key switch goes to 
> the on position. I use
> the start position to tell the Zilla to start up, and it decides when to 
> pull in the positive side
> contactor.
>
> 1. Can I use the kill switch to open the negative side contactor? It will 
> zorch the contactor if
> it's carrying current, but will the Zilla suffer?
>
> 2. Should I interrupt the 12 volt directly to the Zilla pin 3, Key Input 
> (just like turning off
> the key)? What will happen if under power?
>
> 3. Is there a specific connection on the Zilla for this purpose?
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>
> 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod,
  I bought a small piece of this 'magnetic paper' at,
of all places, the gift shop at the National
Inventor's Hall of Fame Museum in Akron, OH.  You
might be familiar with this town :-)

- Steven Ciciora

--- Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> You must be talking about the encoder magnet.  I use
> 'green magnetic paper' to check encoder magnets. 
> I'll
> try and get more information on this material, it
> basically shows where the north-south transition
> points are on a magnet.  I would guess that one of
> the
> hall sensors are bad.  If you can apply 5 or 12Vdc
> to
> the hall board, put a scope on each hall output and
> turn the motor to make sure you are getting a square
> wave signal.  I've had halls fail on several motors
> from coming in contact with the encoder magnet or
> just
> failing for no apparent reason in life test
> (temp-humidity testing).  If a hall is bad the
> control
> won't know how to commutate (almost like a bad brush
> in a DC motor!).  If you are getting good back EMF
> while turning the motor it sounds like the
> encoder/halls are the problem. 
> --- Dale Ulan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > ....
> > inverter phase short demagnetized it.  Just a
> guess.
> > 
> > If you have the motor, try running an Eg test.
> > 
> > 
> > The best I can test so far is by spinning the
> motor
> > up
> > and comparing the back EMF to what I expect to be
> > there - all phases appear even, and the max speed
> > appears
> > to match the applied voltage.... the voltage vs
> RPM
> > relationship appears to make sense to me. Is this
> > an 'ok' test?
> > 
> > I have heard that the thing on this motor that
> dies
> > at
> > higher speed (6000 RPM or higher) is the magnet
> > running
> > the hall-effect position sensor. It looks like at
> > least
> > one of those failed during this motor's life - the
> > housing that holds the hall-effect devices are
> > covered
> > in marks that look like a magnet came apart. Does
> > this
> > seem reasonable?
> > 
> > -Dale
> > 
> > 
> 
> 



       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Choose the right car based on your needs.  Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car 
Finder tool.
http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Not quite. I had a problem with JB Weld trying to fix a cast antique trivet of my wife's. Finally used a product called "StrongMend" that worked better, until someone set something too heavy on it, and broke it again! *(Sigh)

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 5:35 AM
Subject: RE: PVC Glue


JB weld does a great job.  It will bond to anything.

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 13:58
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: PVC Glue

Bill Dennis wrote:
I've got a few PVC body parts to which I need to affix some metal
L-brackets, which will then get bolted to the frame. One suggestion I
got was to use Gorilla Glue. Does anyone have any other recommendation

for a good glue or mastic to attach the L-brackets to the PVC?

Bonding plastic to metal is never going to be particularly strong. The
materials are too much different in their flexibility and expansion with
temperature. Shock, vibration, flexing, and temperature changes will
cause the joint to fail soone or later.

Can you make the L-brackets out of plastic too? Then you can reliably
bond them to the plastic body parts, and then use screws, rivets, etc.
to reliably connect the plastic L-brackets to the frame.

The most reliable way to bond most plastics is welding. You either
disolve the plastic with a suitable solvent, or use heat to melt and
fuse the plastic together.

ABS is pretty easy to hot-air weld. My only ComutaVan body was ABS, and
probaby had 100 feet of hot air welded seams due to all the stress
cracking accumulated over the years.


--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.magnetsales.com/Otherprod/Measure.htm#field

  Magnaview Paper  - A 0.006" thick green film
allowing you to see the magnetization pattern on
magnets. Poles are seen as dark areas bounded by light
lines.

More,
http://www.cy-sensors.com/PoleViewer.pdf


--- Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> You must be talking about the encoder magnet.  I use
> 'green magnetic paper' to check encoder magnets. 
> I'll
> try and get more information on this material, it
> basically shows where the north-south transition
> points are on a magnet.  I would guess that one of
> the
> hall sensors are bad.  If you can apply 5 or 12Vdc
> to
> the hall board, put a scope on each hall output and
> turn the motor to make sure you are getting a square
> wave signal.  I've had halls fail on several motors
> from coming in contact with the encoder magnet or
> just
> failing for no apparent reason in life test
> (temp-humidity testing).  If a hall is bad the
> control
> won't know how to commutate (almost like a bad brush
> in a DC motor!).  If you are getting good back EMF
> while turning the motor it sounds like the
> encoder/halls are the problem. 
> --- Dale Ulan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > ....
> > inverter phase short demagnetized it.  Just a
> guess.
> > 
> > If you have the motor, try running an Eg test.
> > 
> > 
> > The best I can test so far is by spinning the
> motor
> > up
> > and comparing the back EMF to what I expect to be
> > there - all phases appear even, and the max speed
> > appears
> > to match the applied voltage.... the voltage vs
> RPM
> > relationship appears to make sense to me. Is this
> > an 'ok' test?
> > 
> > I have heard that the thing on this motor that
> dies
> > at
> > higher speed (6000 RPM or higher) is the magnet
> > running
> > the hall-effect position sensor. It looks like at
> > least
> > one of those failed during this motor's life - the
> > housing that holds the hall-effect devices are
> > covered
> > in marks that look like a magnet came apart. Does
> > this
> > seem reasonable?
> > 
> > -Dale
> > 
> > 
> 
> 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
mike golub wrote:
Does anyone recommend any decent pair of
battery carrying straps/handles???

Not offhand. But I do *not* recommend carrying a battery by its terminal posts. This is a good way to crack the seals around the post so they leak, or even damage the internal connections.

My 12 Concorde AGMs are in two boxes; 6 in front, 6 in back. The rear box is oversized, about 24" x 27". It was easy to lower the batteries in place (room for fingers on the sides). When one failed, I could slide the others over to get at the bottom to lift it out.

The front box is a tight fit, 21" x 24". The last battery was lowered in using a battery carrier that attached to the posts. It just dawned on me that this battery was the first one to fail, with an internal open.

I'm changing the pack, and discovered that 4 of the 6 batteries in that front box failed not from low amphour capacity, but from excessively high internal resistance. One of them went from high resistance to completely open right after lifting it out with that battery strap that lifts it by the terminals.

I now suspect that I damaged these batteries by lifting them by the terminals. Though I got almost 8 years out of them, they might have still been going had I not done this.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another possibility is a hybrid battery pack with *both* floodeds and AGMs.

Steve Kobb wrote:
Lee, I'm intrigued by this idea... Let's say I had a DCP Raptor 1200
controller, rated at 156 volts. Could I use 2 serial strings of 12
volt batteries? I.e. would 13 AGMs and 13 floodies work?

The two strings could be the same voltage, or different voltages. It all depends on your control strategy. The key point is that the flooded string has significantly more total watthour capacity than the AGM string.

Presumably, the different chemistries would prevent me from doing buddy pairs with this mix, so how would I switch between strings?

Ultimately, I think you need two separate controllers -- some way to control how much current each string supplies.

Would the controller be smart enough to draw from the AGMs for rapid acceleration, and then switch over to the floodies once a cruising speed had been reached?

It takes *two* controllers. The one for the AGMs is "full size", since it handles the peak power to the motor. The one for the floodeds can be much smaller, since its main job is to supply a lower, steady amount of power to keep the AGMs charged and supply cruising power for the motor.

Also, you mentioned different DODs for each battery type. Does that imply that one would NOT want the same number of each type -- more AGMs than floodies, or vice-versa?

I would size the AGM pack for your peak load; the fastest acceleration, or the steepest hill you need to climb. The floodeds are sized to provide the bulk of your energy; perhaps 90% of it. You might have a big pack of 6v golf cart batteries, and a much smaller pack of AGMs, for example.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joseph T. wrote:
I thought "phases" referred to three-phase electricity which is
used in electric motors.

When you look at the crankshaft of an ICE, you'll see that the pistons arrive at top dead center at different times. They are "phased" so the power pulses occur at different, equally spaced points in each revolution.

Phases in an electric motor do the same thing. A single-phase 2-pole motor has 2 power pulses per revolution. A 2-phase 2-pole motor has 4 pulses. A 3-phase 2-pole motor has 6 pulses, etc.

The phases can be externally generated, as for AC motors; or internally generated by the commutator, as for brushed DC motors. AC motors rarely have more than 4 phases, because the number of wires you need to connect gets awkward. But DC motors routinely have a dozen or more phases.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You must be talking about the encoder magnet.  I use
'green magnetic paper' to check encoder magnets.  I'll


Yes, that's the magnet I was talking about. The motor
seems to be running ok now (the magnet has been replaced
as have all of the power IGBT's and driver transistors).
But it has been wrecked before, and I am not sure why
except for possibly an overspeed of the motor. The
rest of the motor appears to have survived. The previous
owner was using this motor on a 180 volt system which
would allow it to overspeed considerably. There is no
RPM limiter in the controller itself - it uses motor
back-EMF and battery voltage to control the speed.

What I was worried about was the blown-up MOSFET's
(I replaced them with IGBT's) put one rather large
current through the motor and possibly damaged the
magnets the same way that applying too much current
to any PM motor can demagnetize it. If a good back-EMF
test is valid then I don't need to worry about it,
and I can just keep assembling all of my EV parts
(instrumentation, batteries) assuming that I can use
this motor. For the power output, it's a bit heavy
for a BLDC - 16 HP continuous, 30 HP peak, for a
60 pound motor. I'm planning on putting this motor on
a dyno when I get a battery pack ready.

-Dale

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Hi Dan,

Yes we`ve had it up to 60 mph, it runs great. Inertia makes the car want to go 
straight.

Tom Sines

-----Original Message-----
>From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Jul 3, 2007 7:53 AM
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: Re: Evette
>
>It's a funny car but it seems like a very dangerous configuration. have 
>you tried driving it at high way speeds? not sure but seems to me that 
>the slighest flick of the hand at full speed could be fatal, let alone 
>an actual failure in the controllers.
>
>Dan
>


________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com

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--- Begin Message ---
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> If your driving pattern requires frequent hill-climbing,


this has been an area of serious enquiry for me for long ..

whatever be the weight of a battery .. how high can it haul
itself (straight up vertically .. like inside the shaft of an
elevator lift) ? obviously there has to be an upper limit

when such batteries are installed in an ev, they need to
haul up (the hill) not only their own weight but also 3 times
more (approx) .. including weight of passanger(s) and the
car 

my own view is that ev's are very suitable for flat lands ..
and very modest climbs (like approaches to fly-overs
or bridges)

ev's are totally unsuitable for up-hill climbs

..peekay

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i guess i owe a greatful thank you to john for his detailed reply

this info was elduing me for long

now, since you have been soooo closely invovled with the
tango and its design in some areas .. i guess you are the
best guy to answer a few why not's :

1. why should i NOT buy a tango ?

2. why should i NOT think that the very heavy weight is wrong design ?

3. why should i NOT want the batteries to be much lighter (even if it
reduces
    range and also acceleration) ?

..peekay


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 9:20 PM
Subject: Re: tesla car .. tango .. motor ?


> Hello to All,
>
> I'm very familiar with the Tango, so I thought I'd answer a few of these
> questions:
>
> Peekay wrote:
>
> >
> >> i am curious about the motor used by the 'tango'
> >
>
> It uses a pair of direct-drive (through gear reduction) brushed
> series-wound motors powered by a mighty Zilla Z2K and charged by a
> mighty liquid-cooled custom model Manzanita Micro PFC charger.
>
>
> >>
> >> strangely the tango seems quite a dead topic :-((
> >
>
> Oh, I feel slighted :-(   I take it, you don't read 'all' my posts? I
> recently wrote quite a bit about the Tango when the third one I've had
> my hands on passed through for a visit here at the Wayland EV Juice
> Bar....you must have missed that one.
>
>
> Ian Hooper wrote:
>
>  >IIRC the Tango uses two AdvancedDC 8" motors, one for driving each
> rear wheel (independently).
>
>
> You remember incorrectly :-)   It uses a pair of  '9 inch' Advanced DC
> motors, not eights.
>
>
>  >Pretty impressive performance.....
>
> Yes, indeed! You ought'a drive one! The instantaneous launch torque from
> the twin 9s fed with 2000 amps is a face-distorting, gut-wrenching
> affair! Commuter Cars' 0-60 estimate of 4 seconds is a bit conservative
> in my opinion. I'd say it's in the 3s for sure.
>
>
>
>  >I wonder how Commuter Cars are going  with them?
>
>
>
> I've had the pleasure to know the Woodbury family now for more than 10
> years and have been honored to be a part of the development of this
> unique car. The red Tango serial # 0 has been torn down, modified, and
> stereo-ized here at the Wayland EV Juice Bar on many occasions. Black
> Tango serial # 1 is George Clooney's car and has been here as well, and
> I did some special work on it at one of Clooney's homes in '05. Tango
> looks mighty sweet in super gloss black! Primer grey Tango serial # 2
> (still not yet completed) was here as I said, recently and is pre-sold
> to a programmer at Google.  It has a custom designed and built NiMH
> battery pack. The boys at Commuter Cars are working on Li Ion packs,
> too. So yes, things are well at Commuter Cars and orders are coming in
> from high dollar types willing to put their environmental money where
> their mouths are.
>
> See Ya....John Wayland
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.10/875 - Release Date: 6/27/2007
9:08 PM
>
>

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I think this little car is great. However - I was wondering: In order to
keep the car going straight, both motors must be in pretty good sync. How
would one achieve that without a lot of self-regulating electronics?

mm./

> Hi Peekee,
>
> Good to hear from you. The car is experimental so we use different motors,
> that this time we`re using smaller motors to make the car less expensive,
> the car doesn`t care that much.
>
> The wheels are independent.
>
> Yes two curtis, two zillas would made this car go like a scalded duck.
>
> The car will take up to 40 batteries, we hook them up various ways.
>
> disc brakes.
>
> front wheel is not really a load bearing wheel, nor does it steer the car.
>
> Tom Sines
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: peekay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Sent: Jul 3, 2007 3:29 AM
>>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>Subject: Re: might be the electric car of the future
>>
>>9" dc motors .. one per wheel .. with differential steering
>>
>>interesting .. but a bit more about the 'differential' part would
>>help understand exactly what's the technique
>>
>>there are 2 separate curtis controllers ? so each controls one
>>motor ..
>>
>>there are 24 batteries .. in series .. so are both controllers
>>connected to common positive/negetive terminals of the
>>battery bank ? .. in which case 24x12 = 288 volts dc would
>>be the driving current
>>
>>if the 24 batteries are divided into two banks of 12 each ..
>>then it would be 12x12 = 144 volds dc ..
>>
>>and the brakes are ? disc/drum ? two pedals .. one for
>>each tyre's brake is a good n simple idea ..
>>
>>will the 'castor' type front wheel wobble at high speeds ..
>>or is the wobbling 'damped' .. if yes .. how ?
>>
>>..peekay
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Tom S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: "ev list" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>>Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 7:20 AM
>>Subject: might be the electric car of the future
>>
>>
>>> Hi Everyone,
>>>
>>> You can see our car at  electricevette.com,  or on  youtube  at
>>electricevette.  If you e-mail us please be patient,  as we get a lot of
>>e-mail,  and there are only two of us to respond. Thanks enjoy.
>>>
>>> Tom and Yvette
>>>
>>> ________________________________________
>>> PeoplePC Online
>>> A better way to Internet
>>> http://www.peoplepc.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.10/875 - Release Date:
>>> 6/27/2007
>>9:08 PM
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> PeoplePC Online
> A better way to Internet
> http://www.peoplepc.com
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> In the Tango, the motors are essentially 'sidewinders', one with its 
> reduction set for each stubby rear axle, much the way a Crown pallet 
> jack is designed, only times two.

does this mean that there is no 'mechanical' connection between the
two rear tyres ? and that they are driven by separate and independently
controller connected 9 inche motors ?

..peekay

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Hi Jim,

I'll insert a few comments-------


--- Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> --- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > This 1/2" thick band of iron
> > only needs to be as 
> > long as the pole pieces themselves; but for easy
> > construction they 
> > usually use a much longer iron tube, to reach all
> > the way to the end bells.
> > 
> > Note: If you are going to use a PWM controller
> with
> > a DC motor, then you 
> > have to laminate the field pole pieces anyway,
> > because the controller is 
> > applying AC to the field (the controller is using
> > the field windings as 
> > its inductor).
> 
> Hey Lee, Jeff, all
> 
> There are actually a few motors that use solid pole
> shoes.  Most are small low voltage pump motors, but
> Yale has some that go into 7.5" diameter 80 lbs. 36
> volt drive motors.  I'm sure it was done to lower
> the
> cost of the motor but goes against everything I was
> taught.  Anyway I've often wondered how this effects
> that motor compared to if it were to have been built
> with laminated shoes.

Yep, solid pole shoes are a cost reduction.  The poles
are laminated in DC motors to reduce the loses (called
pole face losses) which are caused by the slots in the
armature sweeping across the pole face.  Where there
is an armature tooth there is locally more flux in the
pole face steel and where there is an armature slot
there is less flux locally in the pole face steel. 
This, of course, occurs at a frequency equal to the
RPM times the number of armature slots.  Pretty high
at speed.  So this varying flux in the ploe face steel
causes what is referred to as minor loops, little
hysteresis loops in the flux.  The laminations reduce
the eddy currents which will result from varying flux
due to the armature slots.  Electrical grade steel
reduces the hysteresis loss.  Overall this could be a
percent or two of motor efficiency.  Greater at higher
RPM.

> 
> On another note, I'm wondering if you could tell me
> whether laminating the whole housing shell (vs it
> being solid) would offer better properties or in
> fact
> worsen them in a DC motor?

When you laminate the magnetic path, you get some
stacking factor.  Meaning the laminations actually
have a tiny gap between them.  So you end up having to
use a little more to get the same steel vs a solid
structure.  With good maunfacturing methods, just a
few percent.  In regards to the shell (frame or yoke)
being laminated, it will improve performance with PWM
controllers for similar reasons given about the pole
face.  The PWM will cause a varying flux causing some
eddy currents.  How much over a solid frame?  Again,
maybe a percent or two.

My choice---laminated poles and a solid frame.  If
cost was not an issue, then a laminated frame.  

>  Just another crazy what
> if
> idea floating around the space between my ears 8^)
> 
> Thirdly,  I'm shortening a ADC9 for a guy in Calif.
> and will be a lot like Jay Donnaways motor.   In
> trimming down the ends I found this particular ADC9
> housing has at least a .200 difference between the
> thick and thin areas of the housing!  It might
> actually be closer to a full 1/4" (by far the worst
> I've seen).  Anyway, I'm wondering, would this cause
> a
> field imbalance and if so by what degree?

Actually, I'd say not.  The important thing is to have
a cross section of frame material inbetween the poles
to carry half the flux per pole without saturating. 
This cross section is the frame thickness times the
frame length.  As long as there is sufficient cross
section, it matters little wheather it is thin and
long or thick and short, or thicker on one end.  There
are always design details to consider and one that
comes to mind is called "frame at pole" which deals
with local saturation around the pole where it butts
up to the frame.  Generally the frame is thick enough
and/or long enough where this is not a problem.  But
shortening an existing frame design could present an
issue with this.

Lee noted some motors have belly band frames where a
second piece of steel is wrapped around the main tube.
 This was common on cranking motors and some pump
motors which used that tooling.  On those high volume
production motors, it was cost effective to tool up
and roll frames rather than machine pipe stock. 
Having the two piece frame was just a means to
facilitate fabrication.  A way to get enough back iron
between the poles. 

> 
> Lastly, The small 6.7" GE motors have a much thinner
> housing than their Prestolite or ADC's compatable
> direct replacement motors which usually amounts to a
> 10 lbs difference between them, much in housing
> weight
> reducing them from 55/60 lbs to 45ish.  Being there
> are numerous versions and they appear to work as
> well,
> are the ADC's over applying the meat or is GE
> undersizing to keep costs down.  I know this would
> have to be a guess but would love your input.

I think the GE motors have a magnetic frame inside
that thin shell.  Using a laminated pole and magnetic
frame punched from one piece of sheet steel.  This is
why they don't have pole bolts.  And the feild coils
are bobin wound in place.  Hard to service---right? 
This type of frame construction might contribute to
less weight, but I think you'd see other places as
well, like thinner castings, shorter comm, less field
copper, etc.  Maybe ACD has to over apply the meat to
compensate for irregularities.  

Hey, nice job on the WZ motor.  No more rubs????

Jeff

> 
> Anyway I just thought I'd pop in and say hi and
> throw
> some questions into the pot 8^)
> 
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
> 
> 
>        
>
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> their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo!
> Games.
> http://sims.yahoo.com/  
> 
> 





 
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I have a 2000 Insight with 134000mi.  Honda has put in
two battery packs and changed the charge control
computer once.  all at no charge.  Honda extended the
IMA warranty to 150,000mi.  I have nothing but good to
say about the little car and my dealership.  It has
saved me more than $20,000 in fuel costs alone as I
used to drive a less than 10 mpg vehicle all the time.
now I drive it only when I have to and use the insight
for everything else.
I had to pay for spark plug change at 1000,000 and one
set of tires and front brakes once otherwise normal
oil chances and that is it.  not too fast but sure is
economic to own.


--- TrotFox Greyfoot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> First, let me say that my Yellow 2000 Insight never
> left me on the
> side of the road.  : ]
> 
> However, I had a battery problem that started
> cropping up after 2
> years.  Pack capacity gradually dwindled until i
> couldn't climb a
> Texas hill without loosing assist due to the pack
> being drained.  I
> took it to Honda to see about replacement but
> perhaps due to my raging
> cynicism they would do nothing about it.  Not that I
> showed them my
> cynical side but the big-wigs only said that
> occasional SOC gauge
> resets are "normal" and that every 20 miles was
> acceptable as
> "normal."  *shrug*
> 
> The other design-specific issue I had was with the
> EGR valve.  The
> possition indicator in them likes to wear out after
> ~50-100K miles.
> When they happens the car won't cruise without
> shuddering until you
> replace the valve to a tune of $200.
> 
> The real issue with the car is it's unique nature. 
> I had body work
> done in '01 after a hail storm golf-balled the
> exterior and cracked
> the windshield.  The guy doing it did NOT do a
> professional job and
> was fired a month after my car left the shop.  It
> took another year to
> get the roof to stop leaking.  It took two months
> for the body shop to
> replace the instrument panel which the guy had blown
> a diode in.  Two
> years later they decided they couldn't reset the
> odometer to the
> proper mileage.  On top of that the tech that
> replaced the panel
> neglected to note the original mileage so I have no
> way to know how
> many miles were on the car when we traded it in for
> my wife's Vue.
> 
> However, even with all the issues I loved that car. 
> I miss it...
> 
> Trot, the sniffly, fox...
> 
> On 7/2/07, Joseph T. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I know it's off topic, but I had a question about
> the Honda Insight.
> >
> > I was wondering whether the Honda Insight is
> reliable. (I've heard
> > about battery problems.) I know that there is
> 100,000 mile warranty on
> > the Insight. If you buy this car from a person,
> can you go to the
> > dealership in case of battery failure and they'll
> fix it for free?
> > Does Honda have a stockpile of Insight parts, or
> are replacement parts
> > pricey and expensive.
> >
> > These same questions I have about the 1st gen
> Honda Civic Hybrid too.
> > Any experience with either cars???
> 
> -- 
> |  /\_/\       TrotFox         \ Always remember,
> | ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a
> |  >\_/<       [EMAIL PROTECTED]       \ third
> alternative."
> 
> 



       
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