EV Digest 7006

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Another EV smile
        by Jeff Mccabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Jay Leno reviews the Tesla Roadster
        by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) RE: limiting wire
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Short Range Battery Pack
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  5) Battery Balancer/Regulator
        by "Mick Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s (was Re:   Tesla
 Roadster Battery Pack)
        by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Zivan ICS 200 Avcon charging problem
        by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: Ideal EV configuration for my situation?
        by "Matthew Chan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s (was Re:  Tesla
 Roadster Battery Pack)
        by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) RE: Ideal EV configuration for my situation?
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Ideal EV configuration for my situation?
        by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s (was Re:  Tesla
 Roadster Battery Pack)
        by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) RE: limiting wire
        by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: Digest 7000
        by "Adrian DeLeon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: Adding electric assist to a surrey bike
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: [ EV ] Adding electric assist to a surrey bike
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) fusing charger & DC/DC
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 18) Re: Discover Channel to cover Wayland Invitational, July 14th
        by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: Ideal EV configuration for my situation?
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Heres a start:http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/736
  Commuted for the first time today, worked like
champ!
  Looks like ill be giving enginears at my work rides
most of the day.
 




--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> 
>  Congratulations!
> I'd like to hear more about your car.
> How does it perform?
> Thanks,
> Ben
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Mccabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev-list <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 2:12 pm
> Subject: Another EV smile
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Well my 928 is finally on the road! It took its
> maiden voyages on Wednesday.
>  Thanks to everyone on the ev-list for your help.A
> few
> that have helped directly are , Cor van de Water,
> Bob
> Bath for pointing me in the right direction. Most of
> the time I remained in lurk mode and used many great
> ideas from the very knowledgeable people here. In
> particular Lee Hart for his voltage clamper and pack
> monitor designs. So simple that even a electronic
> novice like myself can understand. :<)
> Thanks again, 
> Jeff McCabe
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/736
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
>
________________________________________________________________________
> AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out
> more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
> 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought the article was very positive about electric
cars because he cited that the Tesla as having both
power and performance.


--- Claudio Natoli wrote:

> 
> Hi all,
> 
> don't think this has been posted before, and his
> articles do tend to generate interesting follow up
> discussion.
> 
>
http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/new_car_reviews/article2036260.ece
> http://tinyurl.com/yq8udc
> 
> "in the real world most of the fun is between 40mph
> and 80mph, where you put your foot on it." 
> 
> Someone get that man a short ride in a certain white
> Datsun. :-)
> 
> Cheers,
> Claudio
> 
> 



       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for 
today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow  

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

> The question is,  If I have one or two 1/0 cables or one lug end
> connector., does that make the whole loop as if it were 1/0 
> or the I^2/R equation means I only loose a little of voltage
> whereas with all 1/0 cabling I loose ALOT of VOLTAGE?

Exactly; the shorter the total length of 1/0 in the loop, the lower the
total voltage drop will be.  Ideally you want all cables to be 2/0, but
every 1/0 cable you replace will decrease the voltage drop.

> also, what do you do when you forget to put the heat shrink 
> on a few of the cables?
> do you split the 2/0 heat shrink, and then put overtop of it 
> the size heat shrink that will slide over the clamp?

Just get heatshrink large enough to go slide on over the clamp
(heatshrink typically has about a 3:1 shrink ratio, and 2/0 cable is
about 5/8" diameter, so you could use heatshrink up to about 2" (but use
the smallest that will slide over the clamp with the pinch bolt
removed).

Use adhesive-lined heatshrink if at all possible; it is more expensive
but worth it.  You might want to take a battery clamp with you to an
electronic supply place and try various sizes of heatshrink until you
find the one that will just fit over it.  I suspect this may be about
1.5".

Alternatively, head for Home Depot (or similar) and get some electrical
tape of the sort that forms a waterproof barrier when wrapped over
itself and simply tape the connections.

Cheers,

Roger.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I'm ready to buy batteries now for my conversion. Some info on the car.
Its a 77 datsun 280z. kept the 4 spd. and am using a 48v Allis-Chalmers
forklift motor. Its big but free. Here are my thoughts. I only want max
about 10 miles range from this car. Eventually I want something along the
lines of a PHV. But to stay on topic I want a short range EV with lots of
pickup. I was told by Jim that 144v migth get me decent performance with
advanced brushes. I think I also want AGM's since they deliver high
current. I called Deka, there is an outlet here in Richmond and I can get
the AGM 12v 34Ah batt. for about 60 dollars. The 100Ah are 90 I think. I
would like to know what is the cheapest pack I can put together with
greater than 140v and range for 5 to 10 miles. Can I use 12 17Ah
batteries? What is the lowest Ah I can get away with? I don't want
sophisticated. Just cheap and fairly light, small.
Thanks,
Paul

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joseph T. wrote: "...a battery balancer and equalizer as they are sometimes
called are the same thing, right?"

Mick says: A battery string that is balanced would also be a battery string
that is equalized, so "battery balance" and "battery equalization" are
identical terms. If a string could be perfectly balanced, each cell would be
at an identical state of charge compared to every other cell. Perfect
balance is elusive, however, and there are various methods and gizmos which
could be referred to as equalizers, balancers, equalization charging,
dissipaters, etc. Battery owners should do some research and decide on their
preferred solution, but most agree that good balance is important.

Mick says: I am a distributor and mfr's rep for the BattEQ(TM) balancer
built by Smart Spark Energy Systems. See the Top Floor of my website for
product info. I can help end users, retailers, and OEM's with a BattEQ
solution for their needs. A special version for lithium batteries is also
available which can balance down to the individual cell level.  

Joseph T. wrote: "...for AGM batteries I know that you need something to
make sure the batteries never become overcharged; so which do you need a
balancer or a regulator for an AGM back?"

Mick says: Some devices which seek to balance the battery are called
"regulators" or dissipaters. This is one way to seek an equalized battery
but it is not the only way and not necessarily the best way. If "heat
dissipation type" regulators were in place and adequately meeting the goal
of a balanced battery, additional battery balancing devices would not be
needed. If a different type of balancing solution were in place and
adequately meeting the goal, dissipation type regulators would not be
needed. 

Mick says: Prevention of overcharge is important regardless of the balancing
method which is chosen. This is another goal which can be approached from
several different directions. If the charge current were smaller than the
amount of energy that a set of dissipation type regulators could dump as
heat, the regulators could prevent overcharge while also pulling down the
overachievers in the pack. That's one way to prevent overcharge, but I
prefer to simply use a quality battery charger which is designed for the
application.

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com
     

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Ok. This was where I was going for with my comments. I see we share the same goal. Longer cell life is a concern.

I was wondering where the electrons go when all Lions are on the other side already... The mechanism is there with A123s too.

Crappy/Cheap-o BMS is no BMS at all. If it's designed to fail every now and then just to reduce the cost it's not worth the money anyway. So better do it right and robust from the beginning.

If the aim is to maximize the cell life you'll get away with less cells for the same range for longer time. Less batteries less cost.

I find it funny that somehow it got our wrong to public about LiFePO4 cells: "They do NOT need BMS at all." (since they do not break all hell loose, they just die on your hands)

I'm having déja vu here... I feel like 2002 again.. uh..

-Jukka


Bill Dube kirjoitti:
Overcharging can cause them to vent. Very, very severe overcharging can overwhelm the vent and can possibly cause them to burst. I have never done either, so I have no direct experience or data. The loss of electrolyte will cause the cell to lose capacity and to go up in resistance. Since we do not plan on ever overcharging cells, we really have no need to know the degree or rate of degradation.

Any amount of overcharge will reduce capacity and increase resistance. That is why you must have a BMS to get more than a few cycles from Li-Ion cells of any type or brand.

It is like buying a gerbil, but no food for it, and then complaining to the pet store when it dies in a week. You have to feed the gerbil or it will die. You have to have a BMS for Li-Ion cells, or they will die too.

        Bill Dube'

At 12:11 AM 7/9/2007, you wrote:
Bill.. Do you have any info on A123s how they die after overchareged repeatedly ? How many cycles are needed with overcharging to reduce the cell capacity and/or increase the internal resistance to unusable levels?

I'm curious.

I feel a bit odd to read these comments since I have thought people would like to get long lifetime out of these cells. Drag racing might be a different thing. But has the safety been always the only thing you've been worried about ?

What I see all the time is people comparing the prices. How much more expencive than SLAs. How much longer life time is needed to compensate the expence... etc.

For what I have witnessed is that the LiFePO4 cells will get crappier on every cycle if overcharged up to say 4,7V/ cell. After few dozen of these cycles you have already some cells which are not usable anymore.

Is this not the same case with A123s ?

If not.. Then those cells are extremely neat things.


-Jukka


Bill Dube kirjoitti:
If you use decent quality cells, you can parallel them with no worries. Crappy cells are going to be more trouble than the money you might save. You will spend a lot of time and money on the BMS for crappy "flame-thrower" type cells because for safety reasons you must protect them over heating, over voltage, and under voltage. If you pay more for the cells, and use high-quality FePo cells, then many of your BMS complications go away. The BMS becomes much, much less critical to because the cells don't burst into flames if they are mistreated in some minor way. You would be smartest to build a small pack (like for a scooter, or small motorcycle) and try out your ideas on a small, inexpensive, scale. Why trash a huge expensive pack to just to learn a lesson (or two)?
        Bill Dube'

At 09:45 AM 7/5/2007, you wrote:
I'm doing something similar, and one suggestion thrown around on this list was to fuse each sell, so that if one failed short, it would just be taken out of the "set" of 23 in parallel. Fuse would be via a properly sized nickel welded tab. But someone pointed out that failure could be via reduced capacity, or as a resister instead of a short. Basically reducing one module of 23 cells. You'd have to monitor this and manually remove the offending cell before the other 22 parallel cells are destroyed. Or monitor each cell and remove the offending cell from the circuit. Another idea thrown around was to monitor cells in series, maybe 4 in series, you'd get out of balance conditions in those 4 cells, but that would reduce the number of cells you'd need to monitor. Well, not sure what is the best method, each one seems like a compromise except monitoring each cell.

                                    - Tony

----- Original Message ----
From: Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Thursday, July 5, 2007 8:54:38 AM
Subject: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s (was Re: Tesla Roadster Battery Pack)

Speaking of battery packs..

It seems ThunderSky's prices have gone up about 25% in the last 2
months, which means they've lost most of their cost advantage over
PHET (and others), and with all this talk of dodgy business
practices, it's given me reason for pause.

So once again I'm entertaining the idea of building a pack from
18650s (yes, what a lot of work..!)

I believe the Tesla pack has modules of 99 cells in series, with 23
of these modules connected in parallel. So no single cells are
explicitly paralleled, and if capacities don't match exactly well
it's averaged out over the 99. Great way to do it.

But this requires BMS monitoring of each cell individually, which is
just too much work for me!

So can anyone think of any showstopper problems with just hooking up
modules of 23 cells in parallel, and then wiring 99 of the modules
together in series. Then I'd only have 99 voltage levels to monitor.
(My actual numbers would be different but I'm using Tesla's numbers
for comparison.)

Seems to me the biggest problem would be the lowest common
denominator effect, i.e the groups of 23 would only be as good as the
weakest cell. Oh and if one cell shorted out, that could be rather
catastrophic I guess.

Thoughts?

-Ian

On 05/07/2007, at 11:19 PM, Joseph T. wrote:

> The Tesla Roadster battery pack has 6,831 cells. The Tesla Roadster,
> I've heard, is supposed to be 375 volts. Hmm...Lithium Ion batteries
> are rated at 3.6 nominal voltage. So....3.6 volts times 6,831 cells
> obviously doesn't equal 375 volts!!! What's going on here?



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My problem:
I have a Zivan NG3 switching charger in my EV. It has a power factor of 0.68. It has an internal fuse of 20 Amps.
I have an AVCON adapter box.
I can charge on some public chargers, but some of the ICS-200 units shut down after 1 minute.

I am planing a simple low-pass L filter to see if this eliminates the problem.
I have two 0.005 Henry inductors, 22.5 Ampere rated, and 0.03 Ohm.
I have a large number of 10 and 50 microFarad capacitors, oil filled, rated at 600 Volts.

With the two inductors (in series) placed in series with 300 microFarads I calculate a resonate frequency of 91 Hz. I calculated the inductive reactance at 60 Hz at 3.77 Ohms, and the capacitive reactance as 4.4 Ohms.

1. Can I connect the series combination across my 240 Volt 60Hz lines (without the Zivan) for a test?
2.  What will the current be through the Capacitor?

3.  Is it okay to connect the Zivan (across the capacitor).

4.  Would additional capacitance to lower the resonant frequency help?

5. Would placing additional capacitance at the junction of the two inductors have any advantage?

6.  This experiment would cost me nothing, but does it make any sense?

John in Sylmar, CA
PV EV



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
George,

Thanks for replying so quickly.

Unfortunately, I can't obtain the 240D. The 260e and 300e are only
available to me by sheer coincidence. My family has had these cars for
years and they're starting to die off now. I'm hoping to use them
instead of sending them to the junk yard.

The diesel hybrid does sound interesting, and the increased range is
definitely tempting. Is 80-100km range too much? We can always use
other cars for the longer hauls. I think it's a bit generous of an
estimate. I believe realistically, the car wouldn't have to travel
farther than 60km on the longest trips. I'm just worried that I'd have
to tow the car back one day.

Matt

On 7/9/07, Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu> wrote:

                            EV Digest 7005

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s (was Re:  Tesla
 Roadster Battery Pack)
        by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s (was Re: Tesla Roadster 
Battery Pack)
        by "Shaun Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) My power consumption
        by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s (was Re: Tesla
 Roadster Battery Pack)
        by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s (was Re:  Tesla Roadster 
Battery Pack)
        by Marcin Ciosek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s
        by Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Jay Leno reviews the Tesla Roadster
        by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: My power consumption
        by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s (was Re:  Tesla
 Roadster Battery Pack)
        by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: Ideal EV configuration for my situation?
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 11) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s (was Re:  Tesla Roadster 
Battery Pack)
        by Marcin Ciosek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s (was Re:
  Tesla Roadster Battery Pack)
        by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) conversion  question
        by "Tom S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s (was Re:  Tesla
 Roadster Battery Pack)
        by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: conversion  question
        by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) RE: Adding electric assist to a surrey bike
        by "Michael Wendell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) limiting wire
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 18) RE: Another EV smile
        by Jeff Mccabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s
        by Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: limiting wire
        by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: Another EV smile
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 22) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s
        by Marcin Ciosek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s (was Re:  Tesla Roadster 
Battery Pack)
        by Marcin Ciosek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) Ideal EV configuration for my situation?
        by "Matthew Chan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 25) Re: Ideal EV configuration for my situation?
        by "George Swartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>





--
____________

Matthew Chan
VP Fundraising
Engineers Without Borders Carleton
C: (613) 262-3768

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Marcin, let us know how the cells are after 500 cycles (paralled ones). That will be very interesting for all of us.

-Jukka


Marcin Ciosek kirjoitti:
A123 prices are indeed way below 10$, even below 5$ but they are really hard to get. I was able to get far better contact with people from PHET and their cells are at the same level of quality (which was confirmed by HydroQuebec - owner of LiFePO4 patent) as A123. Anyway, we can provide welded and wired blocks of any number of cells in parallel (machine made welding) as well as BMS customized for proper construction. Right now I'm finishing test of 42P43S 18650 LiFP cells on test bench and right after the test are finished we will put it into our car and give it to testing company. In my personal opinion - using big capacity cells or small ones in parallel gives similar results, but we will see after first 100 or 200 cycles.

Marcin

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Matthew Chan wrote: 

Given you are in Ottawa, you should probably get in touch with your local EV 
group, the Electric Vehicle Council of Ottawa (EVCO) <http://www.evco.ca/>.  
These people have EVs and operate them in the same climate you will and so can 
offer practical advice about what you should expect and what you should plan to 
do.

> I'm planning to convert the 300e, and then move onto the 260e 
> when the 300e finally kicks the bucket.

As others have noted, one of the first pieces of advice given to anyone is to 
convert a vehicle that is in good shape and that you like, not one that just 
happens to be available free or cheap.

If you really like the Mercedes, the manual tranny 300e sounds like the better 
choice of the two.  The burnt plastic/oil smell is almost certainly associated 
with the ailing engine, not the tranny.

> And my intended usage will be:
>  - daily commute, 40 km round trip mostly flat ground. Should 
> allow for up to 80km or 100km though, for those proverbial
> rainy days.

80-100km maximum means you are looking at flooded 6V batteries. You don't have 
the budget for advanced chemistries.

>  - 100-120km/h maximum velocity. Definitely does not need to 
> be a speed demon.
>  - Highway use maximum 3 or 4 times a week, mostly local 
> roads or traffic jams, 60km/h.

So, you are looking at 120-144V. 1300-1600lbs (590-730kg) in batteries, 
assuming flooded 6V golf cart batteries.  First question is can the car hold 
that much weight?

To be legal with respect to the vehicle's gross vehicle weight rating (maximum 
fully loaded weight), the vehicle empty must weigh 70kg per seatbelt below the 
manufacturer's GVWR (typically found on a doorjamb sticker).  What this most 
likely means for you is that you may have to be prepared to give up your back 
seat and its associated 2-3 seatbelts so that you can use that 140-210kg 
(300-460lbs) of the GVWR for batteries.

You may also have to reduce your range targets such that you can go with 
flooded 8V or 12V batteries instead.  A 144V pack of Trojan J150 or T1275 
flooded 12V batteries would cut the battery weight in half.  This would provide 
about 10kWh of energy storage at the 1hr rate, and WAGing about 300Wh/mi, this 
would give you a maximum range of a little over 50km.  The 6Vers would give you 
twice that, and the 8Vers somewhere in between.

If you can charge at both ends of your commute, then your 40km round trip range 
requirement is reduced to 20km between charges such that you could easily use a 
lighter pack of 12V floodeds.

>  - Canadian climate. -30C winters, 30C summers.

Your range will be dramatically reduced in cool temperatures unless you provide 
some means of keeping the batteries warm.  At a minimum, plan your battery 
boxes such that they allow for 1" or more of insulation on all sides of the 
batteries.  Check with local EVers at the EVCO and see how they've handled this.

> Budget: $10 000CDN = ~ 9500USD
> 
> So based on the information and criteria given, which set up should I
> choose?

ADC/Warp 9" motor, Curtis 1231 controller, 120-144V of flooded lead acid 
batteries.

If you can swing it, treat yourself to a Café Electric Z1K-LV instead of the 
Curtis. (The Zilla is programmable/configurable and has some datalogging 
capabilities to satisfy the geek in you, and your heavy car will benefit from 
the extra low end torque you'll get with the Zilla.)

Don't forget a ceramic heater or two from Canadian Electric Vehicles 
<http://www.canev.com/> so you can keep your windows defrosted in winter.

You will also want some instrumentation.  The Xantrex Link-10 (aka E-Meter) is 
the standard guage, but you might also consider the PakTrakr: 
<http://www.paktrakr.com/>.  Either of these is available with RS232 data 
output.

And, don't forget a DC/DC converter to keep your 12V lighting system battery 
charged, and, of course, a charger for the main battery pack.

Cheers,

Roger.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've never seen a non-diesel mercedes, so I don't know if the gas
engines are as beefy as the diesel.  But, if I were doing a straight
battery electric mercedes, I'd select a diesel donor, or at least see
if you can get diesel suspension, because you are taking out a 600lb
engine -- more spare weight for batteries.  I think the curb weight on
a 300TD wagon is close to 4,500lbs.  Not light.  But take out the
giant engine, and maybe......  not ideal, but one of the important
things is to have a car that you like.  I'm doing an old ford courier
pickup... which is actually pretty ideal, except for the lack of disc
brakes.  But it's mostly because I really like the truck.  And, the
body, drivetrain, paint, etc, is in near perfect condition, so I don't
have to mess with all of that.

Z

On 7/9/07, Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Matthew Chan wrote:

Given you are in Ottawa, you should probably get in touch with your local EV group, 
the Electric Vehicle Council of Ottawa (EVCO) <http://www.evco.ca/>.  These 
people have EVs and operate them in the same climate you will and so can offer 
practical advice about what you should expect and what you should plan to do.

> I'm planning to convert the 300e, and then move onto the 260e
> when the 300e finally kicks the bucket.

As others have noted, one of the first pieces of advice given to anyone is to 
convert a vehicle that is in good shape and that you like, not one that just 
happens to be available free or cheap.

If you really like the Mercedes, the manual tranny 300e sounds like the better 
choice of the two.  The burnt plastic/oil smell is almost certainly associated 
with the ailing engine, not the tranny.

> And my intended usage will be:
>  - daily commute, 40 km round trip mostly flat ground. Should
> allow for up to 80km or 100km though, for those proverbial
> rainy days.

80-100km maximum means you are looking at flooded 6V batteries. You don't have 
the budget for advanced chemistries.

>  - 100-120km/h maximum velocity. Definitely does not need to
> be a speed demon.
>  - Highway use maximum 3 or 4 times a week, mostly local
> roads or traffic jams, 60km/h.

So, you are looking at 120-144V. 1300-1600lbs (590-730kg) in batteries, 
assuming flooded 6V golf cart batteries.  First question is can the car hold 
that much weight?

To be legal with respect to the vehicle's gross vehicle weight rating (maximum 
fully loaded weight), the vehicle empty must weigh 70kg per seatbelt below the 
manufacturer's GVWR (typically found on a doorjamb sticker).  What this most 
likely means for you is that you may have to be prepared to give up your back 
seat and its associated 2-3 seatbelts so that you can use that 140-210kg 
(300-460lbs) of the GVWR for batteries.

You may also have to reduce your range targets such that you can go with 
flooded 8V or 12V batteries instead.  A 144V pack of Trojan J150 or T1275 
flooded 12V batteries would cut the battery weight in half.  This would provide 
about 10kWh of energy storage at the 1hr rate, and WAGing about 300Wh/mi, this 
would give you a maximum range of a little over 50km.  The 6Vers would give you 
twice that, and the 8Vers somewhere in between.

If you can charge at both ends of your commute, then your 40km round trip range 
requirement is reduced to 20km between charges such that you could easily use a 
lighter pack of 12V floodeds.

>  - Canadian climate. -30C winters, 30C summers.

Your range will be dramatically reduced in cool temperatures unless you provide some 
means of keeping the batteries warm.  At a minimum, plan your battery boxes such 
that they allow for 1" or more of insulation on all sides of the batteries.  
Check with local EVers at the EVCO and see how they've handled this.

> Budget: $10 000CDN = ~ 9500USD
>
> So based on the information and criteria given, which set up should I
> choose?

ADC/Warp 9" motor, Curtis 1231 controller, 120-144V of flooded lead acid 
batteries.

If you can swing it, treat yourself to a Café Electric Z1K-LV instead of the 
Curtis. (The Zilla is programmable/configurable and has some datalogging 
capabilities to satisfy the geek in you, and your heavy car will benefit from 
the extra low end torque you'll get with the Zilla.)

Don't forget a ceramic heater or two from Canadian Electric Vehicles 
<http://www.canev.com/> so you can keep your windows defrosted in winter.

You will also want some instrumentation.  The Xantrex Link-10 (aka E-Meter) is the 
standard guage, but you might also consider the PakTrakr: 
<http://www.paktrakr.com/>.  Either of these is available with RS232 data 
output.

And, don't forget a DC/DC converter to keep your 12V lighting system battery 
charged, and, of course, a charger for the main battery pack.

Cheers,

Roger.




--
Zeke Yewdall
Chief Electrical Engineer
Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company
Cell: 720.352.2508
Office: 303.459.0177
FAX documents to: 720.269.1240
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.cosunflower.com

CoSEIA Certified
Certified BP Solar Installer
National Association of Home Builders

Quotable Quote

"In the dark of the moon, in flying snow,
in the dead of winter, war spreading,
families dying, the world in danger,
I walk the rocky hillside
sowing clover."

Wendell Berry

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ok, so you don't have access to A123 cells?

Marcin Ciosek wrote:
Slowly, slowly, keep you love for your car.

Anyway, because I personally (or rather the company) need a decent replacement for 50Ah single cells I've decided to build blocks of 21 parallel 1.2Ah cells (so two blocks in parallel is the equivalent of 50Ah battery). If the tests we are doing right now will succeed we will start to offer those blocks as a products. Of course BMS will be an option. Some people may don't need such sophisticated BMS which has CAN interface, programmable realtime analysis, battery history storage and so on, so for them we can offer a BGS - Battery Guarding System, that will give you a behavior similar to lead-acid with just a simple protection circuit that will react on critical states.

So, that's the plan. Everything depends on how the idea of thousands parallel/series cells will behave.

In my opinion the most important thing is cyclelife - that's the most unknown variable for any solution. I can test cells with 10C constant current discharge but it takes a lot of time to tell anything about durability.

Anyway,
at the moment I'll have anything ready to sell I'll let people on the list know first.

Regards,

Marcin



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I just made up some cables and painted them with tool
dip as an insulator...don't know if it will take heat
or not but terminals shouldn't get hot if well
made/connected
just an idea i'll see how it holds up


--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
> 
> > The question is,  If I have one or two 1/0 cables
> or one lug end
> > connector., does that make the whole loop as if it
> were 1/0 
> > or the I^2/R equation means I only loose a little
> of voltage
> > whereas with all 1/0 cabling I loose ALOT of
> VOLTAGE?
> 
> Exactly; the shorter the total length of 1/0 in the
> loop, the lower the
> total voltage drop will be.  Ideally you want all
> cables to be 2/0, but
> every 1/0 cable you replace will decrease the
> voltage drop.
> 
> > also, what do you do when you forget to put the
> heat shrink 
> > on a few of the cables?
> > do you split the 2/0 heat shrink, and then put
> overtop of it 
> > the size heat shrink that will slide over the
> clamp?
> 
> Just get heatshrink large enough to go slide on over
> the clamp
> (heatshrink typically has about a 3:1 shrink ratio,
> and 2/0 cable is
> about 5/8" diameter, so you could use heatshrink up
> to about 2" (but use
> the smallest that will slide over the clamp with the
> pinch bolt
> removed).
> 
> Use adhesive-lined heatshrink if at all possible; it
> is more expensive
> but worth it.  You might want to take a battery
> clamp with you to an
> electronic supply place and try various sizes of
> heatshrink until you
> find the one that will just fit over it.  I suspect
> this may be about
> 1.5".
> 
> Alternatively, head for Home Depot (or similar) and
> get some electrical
> tape of the sort that forms a waterproof barrier
> when wrapped over
> itself and simply tape the connections.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Roger.
> 
> 



       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Choose the right car based on your needs.  Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car 
Finder tool.
http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/

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--- Begin Message ---
The same thing happens to me...

My latest: 6993, 6996, 6997, 6999, 7001, 7002, 7004, 7005.

I've never been able to find a pattern to the missing e-mails, and more and more seem to be missing lately. Sometimes they do arrive out of order, but not often.

My ISP is Charter - and I've never noticed any weird mail backups or service hiccups. None of my friends have complained about missing e-mail to/from me...

Maybe the receiving ISP gets temporarily busy and SJSU never gets around to a retry?

-Adrian

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This would be a very easy conversion.  I happen to have a motor you could
just have.  It is a 24v hydraulic pump motor from a fork lift.Your
conversion is a great idea.  I live in Bernal Heights.  Lawrence
Rhodes......
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Darren David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 11:06 PM
Subject: Adding electric assist to a surrey bike


> Hi all-
>
> I recently purchased a used surrey bike from the Golden Gate Park bike
> rental shop. It looks almost *exactly* like this model:
>
> http://www.surreycompany.com/images/OnlineSurrey_000.JPG
>
> I'm looking for a way to add electric assist. I can't go down the
> electric hub route because the front wheels are not attached to forks,
> they are on spindles (see photo). As for the back wheels - the entire
> setup is a single speed system with each crankset driving its own
> independent wheel. The only system that I think seems feasible is the
> Cyclone inline drive system, but I'm hoping to put one together for
> cheaper -- and I'd like to install triple-chainrings up front so that I
> can add some gearing while pedaling (the Cyclone system requires the use
> of their proprietary "freewheeling" chainwheel). The bottom line is that
> I'd like to add power assist /in addition to/ pedal power -- i.e. i want
> to maintain pedal power as the primary drive system, and use electric
> assist only when I get tired ;)
>
> Has anyone attempted a similar conversion, or do you have any thoughts
> as to how to attack the problem? Perhaps a friction drive system against
> one of the back wheels?
>
> Thanks in advance for any and all help!
>
> Best,
> Darren David
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Currie kit would be ok if you used two of them.  Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 12:40 AM
Subject: Re: [ EV ] Adding electric assist to a surrey bike


> Hello Darren,
>
> A source of supply for a electric bike or add on components are:
>
> CURRIE TECHOLOGIES
> 20600 Nordhoff St., Chatsworth, CA 91311
> 1 800 377 4532 www.currietech.com
>
> I bought the whole assembly from them which included a cast aluminum
battery
> case with two 24 volt batteries, a rear axle motor drives, wheels, tires,
> suspension, handle bars with speed control, shifter, all mounted on a very
> heavy duty aluminum frame.
>
> It came all pre-assemble for $295.00.
>
> Roland
> > >> Hi all-
> > >>
> > >> I recently purchased a used surrey bike from the Golden Gate Park
bike
> > >> rental shop. It looks almost *exactly* like this model:
> > >>
> > >> http://www.surreycompany.com/images/OnlineSurrey_000.JPG
> > >>
> > >> I'm looking for a way to add electric assist. I can't go down the
> > >> electric hub route because the front wheels are not attached to
forks,
> > >> they are on spindles (see photo). As for the back wheels - the entire
> > >> setup is a single speed system with each crankset driving its own
> > >> independent wheel. The only system that I think seems feasible is the
> > >> Cyclone inline drive system, but I'm hoping to put one together for
> > >> cheaper -- and I'd like to install triple-chainrings up front so that
I
> > >> can add some gearing while pedaling (the Cyclone system requires the
> > >> use
> > >> of their proprietary "freewheeling" chainwheel). The bottom line is
> > >> that
> > >> I'd like to add power assist /in addition to/ pedal power -- i.e. i
> > >> want
> > >> to maintain pedal power as the primary drive system, and use electric
> > >> assist only when I get tired ;)
> > >>
> > >> Has anyone attempted a similar conversion, or do you have any
thoughts
> > >> as to how to attack the problem? Perhaps a friction drive system
> > >> against
> > >> one of the back wheels?
> > >>
> > >> Thanks in advance for any and all help!
> > >>
> > >> Best,
> > >> Darren David
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>

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should the fusing to protect the DC side of the battery charger and DC/DC
converter (156 VDC) be a time delay fuse or fast acting fuse?

The ceramic time delay has the limitation of 125 VDC
The fast acting is rated at 600 VDC

so, as much as I want time delay, it seems I'm forced to go fast acting.
the price of the fast acting is $15. compared to $1.50 for the ceramic

thanks, Ben

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- This is great news!! The Wayland Invitational III is going to be a media blitz. The Speed Channel will be there too.

Just spoke with John a couple days ago and he's ecstatic about it and with al the upgrades to the White Zombie it should be a great show.

The "Daily Planet" does excellent work. They covered the 2005 NEDRA Power of DC in Maryland. Bob Rice's car is in there among others including Shawn Lawless' dragster, the BYU ultracap EV-1 and more.

It's still up on the "Daily Planet" site under "Electric Dragster" at:

 http://www.exn.ca/dailyplanet/view.asp?date=9/19/2005

Good luck to everyone this weekend!! Please send some pics for the NEDRA site.

Chip Gribben
NEDRA
http://www.nedra.com



On Jul 8, 2007, at 12:17 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:

From: Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: July 7, 2007 4:38:33 PM EDT
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Discover Channel to cover Wayland Invitational, July 14th


I just got confirmation that the folks from the Canadian Discovery Channel program "Daily Planet" are coming to Portland International Raceway this coming weekend to cover the NEDRA race on July 14th.

        Good news for NEDRA and all that compete.

Bill Dube'

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's a little secret about electric vehicles converted from gas drive.
The main change is the mounting of the electric motor where the gas engine
was.  The other chore is battery placement.  These two things can be done by
a machinist.  The rest is simply wireing it up.  It's really not that hard.
However with your chemistry knowledge if you developed a better battery that
would be something.    With your skills & your fathers I suspect you will
make one of the best first ev conversions.  Good luck.  Lawrence......
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/ This url contains over 1000 converted
vehicles.  The specifications & experiences of these converters can save you
a lot of grief.  They have already made the mistakes so you don't have to.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matthew Chan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 8:33 AM
Subject: Ideal EV configuration for my situation?


> Hi Everyone,
>
> Please let me thank you guys in advance for any replies.
>
> Firstly, I should mention my background. I'm a 2nd year student at
> Carleton University in Ottawa studying chemistry and computer science.
> I'm turning 19 soon and pretty much have no experience with cars,
> electricity, or motors. I understand the concepts, but have no
> hands-on experience. However, I learn quick and am definitely willing
> to spend a large chunk of my free time doing this conversion. Most of
> you probably think I'm crazy by now for even considering this, but I
> wouldn't be attempting this conversion if I didn't have the help of my
> dad. He's currently the tech department head at a high school in
> Toronto and has access to all the classrooms and shops. We have access
> to ProENG and 4 axis CNC milling machines and lathes. He holds a
> B.Eng in mechanical and has the great advantage of access to free
> (student) labor. He's also had considerable experience working in the
> industry and can refer to his friend, the electrical engineer, for
> help with electrical issues. Our agreement is that I do the research,
> he advises on technical issues, and the students do the labor (I'll
> help when I'm in town).
>
> I'll describe my situation:
>
> I'm going to come into possession of 2 Mercedes cars, hopefully, in
> the near future. They are the 1987 260e and 300e models.
>
> The 260e was purchased by my grandfather 2nd hand in 1988 and has a
> near pristine body. There's only a bit of rust on the rear left door.
> The engine was also brought to the dealership every year for tuneups,
> but it's starting to show signs of wear now after 20 years. It has an
> automatic transmission, unfortunately, and I think will become
> available as a donor within 3 or 4 years. I'm quite sure it's been
> driven less than 150 000km (!).
>
> The 300e is my uncle's temporary vehicle and the engine is in very
> poor condition, although the body is in fair condition. It spends more
> time in the shop than out of it, and I think I can obtain it within
> the year. It has a standard transmission, but it is also in very poor
> condition. I can hear it constantly when sitting in it, and there is a
> persistent smell of burnt plastic/oil. I think it may be necessary to
> replace it, so that should be added into the cost (more on that
> later).
>
> I'm planning to convert the 300e, and then move onto the 260e when the
> 300e finally kicks the bucket. They both use identical chassis, so I'm
> hoping it won't be too hard to switch over.
>
> A few quick stats about both the cars:
> curbside weight: 3100lbs
> carrying capacity: unknown
> Co-efficient of friction: ~0.22
> Lots of trunk space, lots of engine space.
>
> And my intended usage will be:
>  - daily commute, 40 km round trip mostly flat ground. Should allow
> for up to 80km or 100km though, for those proverbial rainy days.
>  - 100-120km/h maximum velocity. Definitely does not need to be a
> speed demon. Reliability and range are much more important to me.
>  - Highway use maximum 3 or 4 times a week, mostly local roads or
> traffic jams, 60km/h.
>  - Canadian climate. -30C winters, 30C summers.
>  - Future expandability to use with fuel cell?
>
> Budget: $10 000CDN = ~ 9500USD
>
> So based on the information and criteria given, which set up should I
choose?
>
>  - Battery:
> I've been dreaming about the A123 batteries, but realistically, I can
> only afford Lead Acid. I'm not sure whether I should choose AGM/Gel,
> or regular flooded. What would be the normal cost for these batteries
> for an application of my size? I know those cars are quite heavy. The
> usual cars I see converted are almost 1000lbs lighter than the 260e.
> the T105s look nice, but I have little experience in this area. I'm
> not even sure if the 260e can support the weight of the batteries, (I
> estimated 1000lbs) since I can't find any information on the carrying
> capacity of the chassis.
>
>  - Motor/Controller:
> I can't decide on DC or AC. I know that this usually ignites a
> firestorm of email when this issue is raised, but I'm truly clueless,
> so please help me out.
> Please don't hesitate to comment if my reasoning seems flawed at any
point.
>
> I would ideally like to go with AC, because efficiency seems to be
> higher with regenerative braking and the solutions seems to be more
> professionally designed and reliable in the long run? However, the
> BRUSA motor/controller looks like it costs 3 times my budget! Is it
> possible to run an AC set up with my budget? Victor seemed to be able
> to put together the Siemens set within my budget, but I'm not sure if
> those prices are still available, and within Canada.
>
> However, although DC seems to be a less "professionally designed"
> solution, it also does not look bad. It may be the only thing within
> my budget. The problem is that I'd prefer a programmable motor
> controller, since I'm going to be fully integrating this car into a
> car PC running Linux. Most of the DC motor controllers make me nervous
> though, partly based on the size, and partly based on the overall look
> of the motor controller and lack of data logging features. There seems
> to be an overall lack of engineering data available for the DC motor
> segment, so that also adds to my worries. I'd prefer to have as many
> sensor readings as possible coming from the car, just to make sure
> everything is running within normal ranges. I'm not sure if there's
> any DC motor controller out there within my budget that meets those
> needs. Are my worries unwarranted?
>
> Also, what range of power would I be looking for? I suspect that I
> would need a 70+ kw nominal motor since the car is so heavy, but
> that's really just a rough estimate based on a ratio of the CRX ICE
> and victor's EV horsepowers and the 260e's ICE horsepower.
>
> So basically those are the 2 biggest questions regarding my set up.
> I'm not afraid of any mind boggling reading either, so if you guys
> have good resources for a relative "newbie" to the field, pile it on.
> I've been to most of the EV sites readily available through Google,
> and probably all of the major motor manufacturer sites and wiki pages,
> but I feel that I should be reading much more about it.
>
> Oh also, included in this budget needs to be a car PC. No worries, it
> shouldn't cost more than $500. I'm going to "start" this baby up with
> a USB key =D.
>
> Thanks for all your help guys.
>
> Matt
>

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