EV Digest 7010
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s (was Re: Tesla Roadster
Battery Pack)
by Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s (was Re: Tesla
Roadster Battery Pack)
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Wire Size
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s
by Marcin Ciosek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Battery Balancer/Regulator???
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s
by Marcin Ciosek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Arnold Flexing for Flex-Fuels
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Jay Leno reviews the Tesla Roadster
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Arnold Flexing for Flex-Fuels
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Optimum Animal Controller Frequency
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Tesla, 3-year-cycle?
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Delivery status notification (not) FIXED!! Still Fails!
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s (was Re: Tesla Roadster
Battery Pack)
by "Ian Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Ideal EV configuration for my situation?
by "Matthew Chan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Ideal EV configuration for my situation?
by "Mark Eidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: might be the electric car of the future
by "Tom S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Ideal EV configuration for my situation?
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
>
> Fair pricing leads to mass sales, overpricing leads
> to no sales.
>
> Dan
I don't speak for A123 or have any inside information
to back this up, but I have a couple of opinions that
I strongly believe to be true. First of all, I
believe they have a successful product, and are
working hard to supply their very big contracts.
Customers like tool manufactures and auto
manufactures. At this point in time, I believe they
don't have enough excess capacity to be able to supply
small (like a pallet or two) customers. The law of
supply and demand is keeping the prices high for now.
So why are they selling to the RC hobby crowd?
Another guess is, to get these cells into the hands of
the decision makers at the big companies, the
engineers who also have technical hobbies on the side.
There are all sorts of quotes about how there are
liars, damn liars, and then there are battery
salesmen... I'm sure the corporate guys up the chain
have heard all sorts of claims about battery
performance, and getting their attention through
"normal" channels (press releases, calls from battery
salesmen, etc) wouldn't be very effective. So I'm
guessing that A123 decided to make it easy to get
cells in the hands of the very vocal hobbyists, people
who abuse and push cells to the limits. Once the
hobbyists have seen the performance first hand on the
weekend, they will come in on Monday morning, showing
their bosses just exactly how well the cells
performed.
So why is it cheaper to buy cells from an assembled
product? This is another guess. Small startups live
and die with cash flow. Maybe they had to "sell their
soul" to get that first big contract; the big sales
commitment from a _big_ name, to convince lenders to
lend them $ to fund a production line. So in order to
get this first big contract, maybe they committed to
selling cells close to, or even below cost. This may
be hard to believe, but years ago when my Dad worked
for Zenith, just before they pretty much went under,
they were selling TV sets below cost, just to bring in
enough $ to make payroll.
These are just my opinions, formed from opportunities
of getting to see both sides of the fence. You can
choose to believe them, or just use it as more
evidence for some big conspiracy. But I've got
nothing to gain by promoting my opinions.
- Steven Ciciora
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I expected this argument to be made but was hoping it wasn't
if they have difficulty producing enough then that should translate into
waiting periods. not fucking the EV world
Steven Ciciora wrote:
I don't speak for A123 or have any inside information
to back this up, but I have a couple of opinions that
I strongly believe to be true. First of all, I
believe they have a successful product, and are
working hard to supply their very big contracts.
Customers like tool manufactures and auto
manufactures. At this point in time, I believe they
don't have enough excess capacity to be able to supply
small (like a pallet or two) customers. The law of
supply and demand is keeping the prices high for now.
So why are they selling to the RC hobby crowd?
Another guess is, to get these cells into the hands of
the decision makers at the big companies, the
engineers who also have technical hobbies on the side.
There are all sorts of quotes about how there are
liars, damn liars, and then there are battery
salesmen... I'm sure the corporate guys up the chain
have heard all sorts of claims about battery
performance, and getting their attention through
"normal" channels (press releases, calls from battery
salesmen, etc) wouldn't be very effective. So I'm
guessing that A123 decided to make it easy to get
cells in the hands of the very vocal hobbyists, people
who abuse and push cells to the limits. Once the
hobbyists have seen the performance first hand on the
weekend, they will come in on Monday morning, showing
their bosses just exactly how well the cells
performed.
So why is it cheaper to buy cells from an assembled
product? This is another guess. Small startups live
and die with cash flow. Maybe they had to "sell their
soul" to get that first big contract; the big sales
commitment from a _big_ name, to convince lenders to
lend them $ to fund a production line. So in order to
get this first big contract, maybe they committed to
selling cells close to, or even below cost. This may
be hard to believe, but years ago when my Dad worked
for Zenith, just before they pretty much went under,
they were selling TV sets below cost, just to bring in
enough $ to make payroll.
These are just my opinions, formed from opportunities
of getting to see both sides of the fence. You can
choose to believe them, or just use it as more
evidence for some big conspiracy. But I've got
nothing to gain by promoting my opinions.
- Steven Ciciora
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mark,
In our wire installation according to the NEC (National Electrical Code) we
are not allow to use a insulated No. AWG 2 copper 19 stranded wire that is
even rated for 90 degrees C (194F) on 150 amps.
The maximum we can use a 90C wire in a enclosure, conduit or duct way is 137
amps. If its suspended in air, than we can go to 150 amps at a maximum
insulation temperature of 75C.
The maximum ampere we can use on a 2/0 wire is 186 amps with a insulation
rating of 90C. in a ambient air temperature of 30c.
My motor ampere is at a continuous amp draw of 200 amps, which I am 14 amps
over. It should be 3/0 which is good for 214 amps at 30c ambient.
In electrical calculations of a circuit, you must include two times the
length of run of a circuit. For example, I have a 25 foot run of 2/0 cable
from the battery pack to the motor. Also there is 45 feet of 2/0 links on
the batteries.
This is (25+45)x2 = 140 feet circuit run. We keep the distance of 2/0
overhead suspended conductor to about 100 feet maximum at 200 amp maximum.
In a duct way, we have to drop this to 186 amps.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 7:39 AM
Subject: Wire Size
> Howdy Folk's,
>
> I've seen recommendations in commuter cars for 2/0 cable size and that
> seams
> like quite an overkill. It's needed from the controller to the motor
> where
> current is typically double that of battery amps but not for general
> wiring
> unless you're racing. I took apart a Bombardier which was wired in #6 and
> bumped it up to #4. Anyway I've always wired my highway cars at #2 since
> there is on average 30' of wire cable and the weight/cost and difficulty
> of
> wireing with 2/0 really isn't justified for a nominal 150A average highway
> current which the electric code rates #2 for.
>
> >From the Howard Sam's Electronic Table/Formulae per 1000 feet for 150A:
>
> 2/0= .07793 ohms, for 30' = .0023379ohms .35V drop, 53W loss
> 1/0= .09825 ohms for 30' = .0029475ohms .44V drop, 66W loss
> #1 = .1239 ohms for 30' = .003717ohms .56V drop, 84W loss
> #2 = .1563 ohms for 30' = .004689ohms .70V drop 105W loss
>
> So for using #2 you get 50W more loss than hassling with 2/0, hardly worth
> the trouble. You would get more loss by sticking your hand out the
> window.
>
> BTW, I didn't see the results from the timing advance table, RPM's vs
> degrees advance. Is there info on that? I have mine set at 7 degrees
> advance running at 4k rpm's on the freeway and was curious how much
> percentage torque that takes off starting from 0 rpm's.
>
> This hotmail email won't let me reply to an existing email, have to start
> a
> new one. Is there a webmail service that handles the digest better?
>
> Have a renewable energy day,
> Mark
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!
> http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_hotmailtextlink2
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dan,
once again - I'm not PHET's seller (at least till I'm sure their reliability).
I only want to underline that if your application is not Amp-killer you will
get cells from them much easier.
Anyway, about your doubts - PHET has 26650 cell as well and the capacity is
identical to A123. The nominal voltage is just a matter which part of
discharge cureve you take under consideration - 3.2 or 3.3 V, whatever. More
important is voltage range and that is identical for both products.
I agree that PHET rates their cells at much lower C-rate. I did 5C constant at
PHET 18650 successfully.
If you are hungry of amps and you want to purchase cells without problems - go
to Kokam. I've tested 40, 53, 150, 200, 240 Ah cells and I can tell that I'm
more convinced for this solution.
The A123 and PHET for me is just for testing purpose. I believe regular EV
customers won't pay the amount of money that is for Tesla ESS and in final
numbers the usage of big capacity cells is more cost effective.
That's all.
I'm going back to my EV and test bench. If anything will happen I'll let you
know.
Marcin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joseph T. wrote:
First of all, a battery balancer and equalizer as they are sometimes
called are the same thing, right?
Not quite.
"Equalization" refers to deliberate overcharging to bring all cells up
to the same state of charge ("full"). An analogy is to fill a bunch of
buckets with water all up to the same level by running the hose into
each one until it overflows. Now they are all at the same level
--brimming full. The main problem is that this is messy and wasteful. A
related problem is that it can damage sealed batteries, which have a
cover so there is no place for the excess to go.
"Balancing" refers to any method to charge each cell or battery
individually, so they all reach the same state of charge. It could be
individual chargers, or circuits that shunt some charging current away
as each battery reaches full, or systems to move charge between
batteries as needed. The analogy with buckets is to have separate hoses
for each bucket, with the flow rates adjusted so they all reach "full"
at the same time regardless of slight difference between buckets. It
could be siphon hoses between buckets, or drain holes in the sides, etc.
Okay, and for AGM batteries I know that you need something to make
sure the batteries never become overcharged; so which do you need a
balancer or a regulator for an AGM back?
Mild overcharging is helpful, and even somewhat necessary for lead-acid
batteries. It is the cheapest and easiest method to equalize them
(insure that all cells are getting fully charged).
Moderate overcharging is harmless for flooded batteries, because you can
always add more water. But it can damage sealed cells, because they have
no good way to get rid of excess charge.
Heavy overcharging will damage any battery, and shorten its life. But
frankly, most consumers do it anyway, because it's cheap and easy and
requires no brains. It's like the days of cheap gas and no concerns
about pollution, when people routinely "topped off" their car's gas tank
until it ran out the neck and onto the ground.
What are some good manufacturers of either balancers or regulators?
Lots of them have been listed on the EV list. Since there really isn't
any market for electric cars, there really aren't any big-time
manufacturers of balancers or regulators. Most are produced by hand by
individuals or tiny businesses.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Marcin Ciosek wrote:
Anyway, about your doubts - PHET has 26650 cell as well and the capacity is
identical to A123. The nominal voltage is just a matter which part of
discharge cureve you take under consideration - 3.2 or 3.3 V, whatever.
Ah I had gotten the impression the A123 cells were 3.6V. my bad. but the
difference is still way too great in performance. The phets are useless
compared to.
It's also a very bad sign that the cells you say they have 26650 is not
on their site. indeed the site has that very unique chinese amateur look.
do you have a spec sheet on their 26650 cells? could you send it here
please?
Dan
More
important is voltage range and that is identical for both products.
I agree that PHET rates their cells at much lower C-rate. I did 5C constant at
PHET 18650 successfully.
If you are hungry of amps and you want to purchase cells without problems - go
to Kokam. I've tested 40, 53, 150, 200, 240 Ah cells and I can tell that I'm
more convinced for this solution.
The A123 and PHET for me is just for testing purpose. I believe regular EV
customers won't pay the amount of money that is for Tesla ESS and in final
numbers the usage of big capacity cells is more cost effective.
That's all.
I'm going back to my EV and test bench. If anything will happen I'll let you
know.
Marcin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dan,
if you look deeper at PHET site you will find 18650 discharge characteristics
at 15C continuous current or even 150C for 4Ah product.
We can keep this discussion for very long time.
You, me or anyone here will be only convinced with personally made tests. I'm
lucky to doing them right now...
For me EOT until I got 100% confirmed tests.
Marcin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Who are you quoting Marc?
Just exactly which experts are spurning electric trolleys? We a have a nice set of rubber-tired ones on State St in
Santa Barbara. Steel on steel are problematic, of course, but also unnecessary to achieve the result.
Seems to me Arnold got caught in his zipper over the CARB firing but ended up appointing somebody with terrific
credentials as he back-pedaled. Good example of why we need strong journalism.
JF
Marc Geller wrote:
Arnold Flexing for Flex-Fuels; Fouls Air & Guzzles More Gasoline
"As I read in the San Jose Mercury News about California's flex-fuel
fleet fiasco. a near silent electric trolley bus passes by my window on
Haight St in San Francisco, an old technology tried, true, and spurned
by the environmental "experts" of the present and recent past."
http://www.plugsandcars.blogspot.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have to say he is still spouting illinformed myths about electric cars
"all the safety stuff is taken out" I don't know where that came from.
Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: Jay Leno reviews the Tesla Roadster
> I also thought the article was pretty positive on the whole. I
> find Leno's skepticism understandable and healthy compared to the
> knee-jerk criticisms I have heard from others.
> However, I suspect a Zombie ride wouldn't make much difference
> to his outlook. I think he'd probably claim that WZ doensn't operate
> in the "real world" but at the drag strip- ignoring the fact that WZ
> is driven to and from the strip. Or if he didn't ignore it he might
> point out that it can only be driven to a track that's less than 40
> miles away on flat ground. Not strictly accurate, but I'm guessing
> that would be his reaction.
> Of course, after actually *talking to John Wayland* for awhile,
> his attitude might change markedly.
>
> On 7/9/07, lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I thought the article was very positive about electric
> > cars because he cited that the Tesla as having both
> > power and performance.
> >
> >
> > --- Claudio Natoli wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > don't think this has been posted before, and his
> > > articles do tend to generate interesting follow up
> > > discussion.
> > >
> > >
> >
http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/new_car_reviews/article2036260.ece
> > > http://tinyurl.com/yq8udc
> > >
> > > "in the real world most of the fun is between 40mph
> > > and 80mph, where you put your foot on it."
> > >
> > > Someone get that man a short ride in a certain white
> > > Datsun. :-)
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Claudio
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
____________________________________________________________________________
________
> > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's
updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
> > http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Earlier this year I was at a CARB meeting on ZEV Bus program. While
it was devoted primarily to postponing the ZEV bus requirement due to
Fuel Cell busses being too expensive and generally not ready for
prime time, the program began with a nodding reference to San
Francisco being exempt from the requirement as it was already in
compliance due to the trolleys. It's obvious to me that an
investment in trolleys and wires makes much more sense than waiting
for FC busses to get ZEV busses into CA cities, but that reality is
studiously avoided. By CARB. By environmental organizations. In
other words, by the "experts."
I'm pleased to hear Santa Barbara has some electric trolleys.
Marc
On Jul 10, 2007, at 9:06 AM, john fisher wrote:
Who are you quoting Marc?
Just exactly which experts are spurning electric trolleys? We a
have a nice set of rubber-tired ones on State St in Santa Barbara.
Steel on steel are problematic, of course, but also unnecessary to
achieve the result.
Seems to me Arnold got caught in his zipper over the CARB firing
but ended up appointing somebody with terrific credentials as he
back-pedaled. Good example of why we need strong journalism.
JF
Marc Geller wrote:
Arnold Flexing for Flex-Fuels; Fouls Air & Guzzles More Gasoline
"As I read in the San Jose Mercury News about California's flex-
fuel fleet fiasco. a near silent electric trolley bus passes by my
window on Haight St in San Francisco, an old technology tried,
true, and spurned by the environmental "experts" of the present
and recent past."
http://www.plugsandcars.blogspot.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your thinking in the wrong direction. You should be optimizing to get a
specific species to follow you. If you can work it out for specific
nuisance animals or insects you could start a new exterminataion service.
You'd be the Pied Piper of the EV world.
damon
From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Optimum Animal Controller Frequency
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 08:54:32 -0500
Hi,
I set my last controller off laminatyion flabulation resonance around 1500
hertz to keep road kill down and improve controller efficiency. I didn't
hit a single bear,deer,muskrat,squirel,dog,cat or beaver in the ten year
period with my Electro-Metro or E-jeep (Tracker).
With the ni-cad E-Porsche using the ye-ol Curtis PMC25 oiperating at 2kHz I
notice that all the animals run out of the way but start chasing me.
I'm assuming that 1.5kHz would be better but is there an optimum animal
dispersion frequency/chart where the animals won't follow you to work?
Have a road-kill-free day,
Mark in Roanoke, VA
_________________________________________________________________
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
_________________________________________________________________
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!
http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_hotmailtextlink2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think Tesla will survive in the long run.
Martin Eberherd has no auto design experience, but he isn't the one
designing the car. He's the CEO. That insanely rich man who created
pay pal seems happy put down 35 million for the company. Between
Martin's start-up experiences, Elon Musk's bounty of cash, and all the
designers from Lotus, I'm sure the company willl do well. The next few
years will be tough though.
On 7/10/07, lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I often wonder the same thing, "Is this another
proto-HYPE?", but only time will tell. The winds are
in their favor as with many other start-ups right now,
but lets see if they can maintain momentum and PRODUCE
a product. I wish them the best.
--- Mark Hanson wrote:
> Hi,
>
> In looking at the hoopla surounding Tesla I'm
> curious if they don't follow
> the standard 3-year-cycle of a lot of techy
> companies do until a
> better/cheaper mousetrap comes up. With 6831 cells
> the reliability or MTBF
> will be dismal as well as the car is overpriced for
> the average buying
> public. The last article I saw stated that the
> chairman Eberhard doesn't
> have auto design experience. I've seen and been
> with quite a few
> 3-year-cycle companies, (larger than Tesla) they
> tend to make great initial
> claims, get investors, hire a bunch of stary eyed
> folk's and then things
> fizzle as they can't get their costs/price down to
> compete with conventional
> technology or the customers/investors discover that
> a lot of their claims
> are balony.
>
> Best Regards,
> Mark
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> http://newlivehotmail.com
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for
today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have no blackberry and I'm getting the notifications!
On 7/10/07, Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Should be fixed now- they did not delete the account as stated...
On Jul 9, 2007, at 9:38 PM, Cor van de Water wrote:
> Hi Mark,
>
> Luckily you don't like new toys ;-)
>
> I think your regular email was forwarded to your blackberry account,
> because I tried to email you privately and again got the failure
> from the blackberry account, so I could not reach you to tell
> you about the issue - catch 22.
>
> UPDATE!!! I am still getting "delivery status notification (Failed)
> The contents of the message are:
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Your message:
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: My power consumption
> Sent Date: Mon Jul 09 21:33:26 2007
> has not been delivered to the recipient's BlackBerry Handheld.
> The returned error status is <DB_USER_SUSPENDED_MODE>
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Mark Dutko
> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 4:48 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Delivery status notification FIXED!!
>
> Dan- I got an I phone and ATT messed up my old blackberry account-
> I just
> had them delete it so it it happens again in the next day please
> let me
> know- I was not aware of this till today.
>
>
> Sorry
>
> Mark
>
> electricyaris.com
>
>
>
> On Jul 9, 2007, at 3:41 PM, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
>
>> do you guys also constantly get an email about delivery failure to a
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] ?
>>
>> what's up with that
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
He appears to be a professional troll:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1022&message=23812564
http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:xceyc1OkOxIJ:www.startrek-online.net/mes
sageboard/showthread.php%3Fp%3D125590+Dan+Frederiksen&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl
=us
http://www.engadget.com/2006/02/16/nasas-spidernaut-robot-arachnid/
http://wilwheaton.typepad.com/wwdnbackup/2007/02/as_a_matter_of_.html
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter VanDerWal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 7:13 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s (was Re: Tesla
Roadster Battery Pack)
Why are you feeding the troll?
He has made it abundantly clear that he has no real intention to actually
build an EV, all he wants to do is stir up discord.
> On 7/10/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> hehe ok. that's terrible. curious human stupidity A123 exhibits (that's
>> probably gonna come back to haunt me that I told the truth)
>
> Wrong, wrong, wrong! A123 pricing is EXACTLY as it should be. Why
> would they give somebody like me a huge discount for such a small
> order? Particularly when the application is largely unknown to them
> and it has an increased potential to do brand damage when compared to
> supplying say the RC market.
>
> Us backyard EVers are a very small cottage niche playing with very big
> toys. We are more risk with only a small return for them. The only way
> WE are going to get a heavy discount is to order very large numbers
> (maybe 100,000+ as Bill Dube suggests) AND show that we are going to
> use them appropriately, i.e. mounting, protection, BMS etc.
>
> As Lee Hart and Bill Dube have suggested; get some cells, play and
> learn. Hence my purchase of the DeWalt packs and charger.
>
> Shaun
>
> www.electric-echo.com
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think I may be going over with Peter's point of view. I was looking
online today and it seems that I would have to buy a junk mercedes for
the transmission, so I could replace this automatic with the standard,
or the dying standard with a working one. That's a real shame because
the body of the 260e is literally in "mint" condition. Everything
works, there's practically no scratches. It hasn't been driven in the
winter, or for long distances. I'm in the process of calling up
dealerships and the sort right now. I'm trying to figure out the
carrying capacity. The service rep said he'd get back to me within a
few days.
Zeke, the Mercedes is fairly common over in Toronto. W124s (260e,
300e, etc) probably account for 5% or 10% of the car population.
However, there's far far more Toyota corollas and the sort, I actually
have one, but the engines on them seem to never die out. The point
about using a common car is very good though. I'll definitely consider
using a corolla or civic or something along those lines if the current
donor turns out to be a bad idea. I'll need to wait for information
from the dealership and from the owner of the donor (hey that
rhymes!), my uncle.
Oh and are the azure/solectria AC systems feasible? They seem to cost
much less than the siemens offerings.
In light of the fact that regen with the series wound DC (probably my
only option if the solectria is not doable) is not available, I was
wondering if there would be any other option. I've heard about
compressed nitrogen regen systems and other systems along those lines.
How doable are those? I'd imagine they have much higher efficiency
than electrical regen systems.
The reason that I'm hoping for a regen system is because Toronto is
one congested city. Start/stop driving is the norm, not the exception.
There also aren't many hills in Toronto, I'd say rolling hills are
pretty rare. There's definitely no mountains or 10% inclines etc. In
either case, the possibility of a nitrogen regen system will be an
after-thought. It's mostly separate from the electrical system it can
be looked at later. For the moment, no regen.
I'm willing to have a slightly chillier car, since I'm pretty much
acclimatized to the -30C winters anyways. A heater is a must, but it
probably wouldn't see very heavy use.
I've read mostly about AC systems, but should I be looking for high
voltage and low Ah or vice versa? I know the answer will depend on the
weight of the vehicle, motor and all that kind of stuff, so lets say
for the moment that the vehicle will be 4500lbs converted. I'm not
sure what I should use for the motor. The ADC and netgain ones seem
suitable, but is it possible to find a better deal for a series wound
DC from industrial surplus stores or direct from the manufacturers? I
have a few ties with the motor industry in Ontario. Is cramming as
many T-105s into the vehicle as possible a good idea? I should have
the weight capacity specs of the car soon.
As usual, thanks for all your replies guys. I'll have to discuss the
possibility of using another donor with my dad tonight.
Matt
On 7/10/07, Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu> wrote:
EV Digest 7009
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many,
many 18650s (was Re: Tesla Roadster Battery Pack)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: conversion question
by "Tom S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Ideal EV configuration for my situation?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Catch phrase for the EVDL
by "Shaun Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: conversion question
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Catchphrase for the EVDL
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Doing Something (Was: Catch phrase for the EVDL)
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Ideal conversion candidate? Aussies are Lucky.
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Dead Batteries
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: One way to promote EV's
by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: conversion question
by "Tom S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Discover Channel to cover Wayland Invitational, July 14th
by "Rob Hogenmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Catch phrase for the EVDL
by "gary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Catch phrase for the EVDL
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Catch phrase for the EVDL
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Ideal EV configuration for my situation?
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Wire Size
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Battery Balancer/Regulator???
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Wire Size
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Tesla, 3-year-cycle?
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Optimum Animal Controller Frequency
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Tesla, 3-year-cycle?
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s (was Re: Tesla
Roadster Battery Pack)
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Important NEDRA Record Rules Updates
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--
____________
Matthew Chan
VP Fundraising
Engineers Without Borders Carleton
C: (613) 262-3768
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You may want to consider using an alternator to charge a 12V battery
used for the vehicle electrical. It would be energized when the brake
light is turned on ........me
On 7/10/07, Matthew Chan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I think I may be going over with Peter's point of view. I was looking
online today and it seems that I would have to buy a junk mercedes for
the transmission, so I could replace this automatic with the standard,
or the dying standard with a working one. That's a real shame because
the body of the 260e is literally in "mint" condition. Everything
works, there's practically no scratches. It hasn't been driven in the
winter, or for long distances. I'm in the process of calling up
dealerships and the sort right now. I'm trying to figure out the
carrying capacity. The service rep said he'd get back to me within a
few days.
Zeke, the Mercedes is fairly common over in Toronto. W124s (260e,
300e, etc) probably account for 5% or 10% of the car population.
However, there's far far more Toyota corollas and the sort, I actually
have one, but the engines on them seem to never die out. The point
about using a common car is very good though. I'll definitely consider
using a corolla or civic or something along those lines if the current
donor turns out to be a bad idea. I'll need to wait for information
from the dealership and from the owner of the donor (hey that
rhymes!), my uncle.
Oh and are the azure/solectria AC systems feasible? They seem to cost
much less than the siemens offerings.
In light of the fact that regen with the series wound DC (probably my
only option if the solectria is not doable) is not available, I was
wondering if there would be any other option. I've heard about
compressed nitrogen regen systems and other systems along those lines.
How doable are those? I'd imagine they have much higher efficiency
than electrical regen systems.
The reason that I'm hoping for a regen system is because Toronto is
one congested city. Start/stop driving is the norm, not the exception.
There also aren't many hills in Toronto, I'd say rolling hills are
pretty rare. There's definitely no mountains or 10% inclines etc. In
either case, the possibility of a nitrogen regen system will be an
after-thought. It's mostly separate from the electrical system it can
be looked at later. For the moment, no regen.
I'm willing to have a slightly chillier car, since I'm pretty much
acclimatized to the -30C winters anyways. A heater is a must, but it
probably wouldn't see very heavy use.
I've read mostly about AC systems, but should I be looking for high
voltage and low Ah or vice versa? I know the answer will depend on the
weight of the vehicle, motor and all that kind of stuff, so lets say
for the moment that the vehicle will be 4500lbs converted. I'm not
sure what I should use for the motor. The ADC and netgain ones seem
suitable, but is it possible to find a better deal for a series wound
DC from industrial surplus stores or direct from the manufacturers? I
have a few ties with the motor industry in Ontario. Is cramming as
many T-105s into the vehicle as possible a good idea? I should have
the weight capacity specs of the car soon.
As usual, thanks for all your replies guys. I'll have to discuss the
possibility of using another donor with my dad tonight.
Matt
On 7/10/07, Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu> wrote:
>
> EV Digest 7009
>
> Topics covered in this issue include:
>
> 1) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many,
> many 18650s (was Re: Tesla Roadster Battery Pack)
> by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 2) Re: conversion question
> by "Tom S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 3) Re: Ideal EV configuration for my situation?
> by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 4) Re: Catch phrase for the EVDL
> by "Shaun Williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 5) Re: conversion question
> by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 6) Re: Catchphrase for the EVDL
> by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 7) Doing Something (Was: Catch phrase for the EVDL)
> by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 8) Ideal conversion candidate? Aussies are Lucky.
> by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 9) Re: Dead Batteries
> by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 10) RE: One way to promote EV's
> by "Richard Acuti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 11) Re: conversion question
> by "Tom S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 12) Re: Discover Channel to cover Wayland Invitational, July 14th
> by "Rob Hogenmiller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 13) RE: Catch phrase for the EVDL
> by "gary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 14) RE: Catch phrase for the EVDL
> by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 15) RE: Catch phrase for the EVDL
> by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 16) Re: Ideal EV configuration for my situation?
> by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 17) Wire Size
> by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 18) Re: Battery Balancer/Regulator???
> by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 19) Re: Wire Size
> by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 20) Tesla, 3-year-cycle?
> by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 21) Optimum Animal Controller Frequency
> by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 22) Re: Tesla, 3-year-cycle?
> by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 23) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s (was Re: Tesla
> Roadster Battery Pack)
> by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 24) Re: Building LiFePO4 packs from many, many 18650s
> by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 25) Re: Important NEDRA Record Rules Updates
> by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
--
____________
Matthew Chan
VP Fundraising
Engineers Without Borders Carleton
C: (613) 262-3768
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peekee,
As it turns out its easy to drive, I`ve had a 12 year old kid learn to drive it
in seconds. The motors don`t even need to be the same.Regulating is done with
the joy stick. Did I mention lts a lot uf fun to drive.
Tom Sines
-----Original Message-----
>From: Michaela Merz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Jul 3, 2007 10:42 AM
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: Re: might be the electric car of the future
>
>
>I think this little car is great. However - I was wondering: In order to
>keep the car going straight, both motors must be in pretty good sync. How
>would one achieve that without a lot of self-regulating electronics?
>
>mm./
>
>> Hi Peekee,
>>
>> Good to hear from you. The car is experimental so we use different motors,
>> that this time we`re using smaller motors to make the car less expensive,
>> the car doesn`t care that much.
>>
>> The wheels are independent.
>>
>> Yes two curtis, two zillas would made this car go like a scalded duck.
>>
>> The car will take up to 40 batteries, we hook them up various ways.
>>
>> disc brakes.
>>
>> front wheel is not really a load bearing wheel, nor does it steer the car.
>>
>> Tom Sines
>> -----Original Message-----
>>>From: peekay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>Sent: Jul 3, 2007 3:29 AM
>>>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>>>Subject: Re: might be the electric car of the future
>>>
>>>9" dc motors .. one per wheel .. with differential steering
>>>
>>>interesting .. but a bit more about the 'differential' part would
>>>help understand exactly what's the technique
>>>
>>>there are 2 separate curtis controllers ? so each controls one
>>>motor ..
>>>
>>>there are 24 batteries .. in series .. so are both controllers
>>>connected to common positive/negetive terminals of the
>>>battery bank ? .. in which case 24x12 = 288 volts dc would
>>>be the driving current
>>>
>>>if the 24 batteries are divided into two banks of 12 each ..
>>>then it would be 12x12 = 144 volds dc ..
>>>
>>>and the brakes are ? disc/drum ? two pedals .. one for
>>>each tyre's brake is a good n simple idea ..
>>>
>>>will the 'castor' type front wheel wobble at high speeds ..
>>>or is the wobbling 'damped' .. if yes .. how ?
>>>
>>>..peekay
>>>
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Tom S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>To: "ev list" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>>>Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 7:20 AM
>>>Subject: might be the electric car of the future
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Everyone,
>>>>
>>>> You can see our car at electricevette.com, or on youtube at
>>>electricevette. If you e-mail us please be patient, as we get a lot of
>>>e-mail, and there are only two of us to respond. Thanks enjoy.
>>>>
>>>> Tom and Yvette
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> PeoplePC Online
>>>> A better way to Internet
>>>> http://www.peoplepc.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.10/875 - Release Date:
>>>> 6/27/2007
>>>9:08 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> PeoplePC Online
>> A better way to Internet
>> http://www.peoplepc.com
>>
>
________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Matthew,
A couple of inserted comments......
--- Matthew Chan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<snip>
>I've
> heard about
> compressed nitrogen regen systems and other systems
> along those lines.
These are hydraulic systems using liquid to compress
nitrogen in the high pressure tank. The cost and
weight of these hydraulic hybrid systems would
prohibit their use with an electric propulsion system
in all likelihood.
> How doable are those? I'd imagine they have much
> higher efficiency
> than electrical regen systems.
When each (elect and hyd) is done right, efficiency is
about the same.
>
<snip>
Good luck,
Jeff
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
--- End Message ---
