# EV digest 7031

```                            EV Digest 7031

Topics covered in this issue include:```
```
1) Re: Short Range Battery Pack
by Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: The flow of current
by "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: How to run appliances off your EV pack (was: 12vdc/120vac inverter)
by "Tehben Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: The flow of current
by "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Toyo AGM Batteries
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: The flow of current
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: The flow of current
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: The flow of current
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: The flow of current
by "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: How to run appliances off your EV pack (was: 12vdc/120vac inverter)
by "storm connors" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
```
--- Begin Message ---
```On Jul 13, 2007, at 10:08 AM, Lee Hart wrote:

```
```[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
```
```How many Ah's do I need for a small car to travel 10 miles on 144v
in moderate driving conditions?
```
```
```
Let's assume about 300 watthours per mile; that's typical for a small car that doesn't have any big problems like dragging brakes, soft tires, etc. Then 10 miles takes 10 x 300 = 3000 watthours. 3000 watthours / 144v = 20.8 amphours.
```
```
Now, 10 miles at 50 mph only takes 12 minutes or 0.2 hours. So, you need a battery that can supply at least 20.8 amphours at this rate. 20.8 amphours / 0.2 hours = 104 amps.
```
```
Batteries usually advertise their 20-hour capacity; their capacity at 12 minutes is considerably less. You'll have to dig to find the capacity specifications at different discharge rates for the particular battery you pick. But the 12-minute capacity will be on the order of 1/3rd of the 20-hour capacity. Thus you need about a 60 amphour battery at the 20-hour rate.
```
```
I like the math but hasn't the real world pretty much proven that 12 Optima group 34 deep cycle batteries (50 ah rated) can handle 10 miles quite easily? The pack would have a drop dead range of around 15 miles, less if driven at high speeds.
```
Paul "neon" Gooch
```

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
```Here is more of the deal.. I used jumper cables with 2 12 volt batteries and
the dam things lit on fire.. Ok they were cheap cables and I ran the
batteries in series so I got 24 volts.
But I want to see the motor work in the car. Before I spend the cash on the
controller.
So I will get some serious wire Like I have been told. Welders wire and a
switch.. Maybe I will make a knife switch out of angle iron?? I have the
flag switches.. Maybe 3 of them in line could handle the current .. What do
you think on that?
And well if I put 3 12 batteries in series so I got 36 volts would that be
tolerated my the motor and the batteries?
for say 5 or 10 min?

Mitchell

-------Original Message-------

From: Zeke Yewdall
Date: 07/15/07 21:16:30
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: The flow of current

Dunno about that.... Today I spun my sepex motor up with jumper cables
For fun (and to make sure it worked). 12 volts (from a running ICE
Car). It turns nice, but it made a decent little spark at 12 volts,
No load. At load and some actual voltage, I'd be hesitant to use
Jumper cables....

You'll need a main contactor anyway, regardless of controller. So why
Not wire the main contactor in to a 48 volt battery bank or so, and
Fire it up? If you are still using the clutch, you can start and stop
The motor with no load for the test, so you won't be breaking full
Current. Not sure how similar your motor is to mine, but its base
Speed (with full field voltage) is only 1000rpm, so that'd be okay for
Engaging the clutch at.

Z

On 7/15/07, storm connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jumper cables?
>
> On 7/15/07, Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hello Metchell,
> >
> > You have to use a very big switch. You could test it out on 12 volts on
one
> > of those 500 amp red flag handle 12 battery cut off switch you can get
from
> > a auto parts store.
> >
> > I use this type of switches to break in the motor brushes, which is
running
> > the motor only, not in gear to drive the EV.
> >
> > Any higher voltage, you have to have a higher voltage rated switch, or
> > circuit breaker that can break the arc, or if not, the motor will
continue
> > to rotate even if you turn off a lower voltage switch on high voltage.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 5:14 PM
> > Subject: Re: The flow of current
> >
> >
> > > Ok then .. Well what I am after is a trial run on the car before I put

> > > another 600 or 700 bucks into a controller.. I want to make sure it is

> > > going
> > > to run ok.. So I want to know how much voltage to put on this motor
rated
> > > for 30 volts and 300 amps .. And take it for a little drive to make
sure
> > > it
> > > is all going to work .. Without frying the motor or anything.. With
just a
> > > on off switch for the trial run..
> > >
> > > Thanks Mitchell
> > >
> > > -------Original Message-------
> > >
> > > From: Roland Wiench
> > > Date: 7/15/2007 2:21:52 PM
> > > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > > Subject: Re: The flow of current
> > >
> > > Hello Phelps,
> > >
> > > Motors are inductive loads, where the ampere will rise with increase
> > > voltage
> > >
> > > Unlike resistance loads as a heater, where if you have a 240 v heater
> > > Element at 8 amps, it will become 4 amps at 120 v.
> > >
> > > A motor that it windings are rated for 240 v may use 10 amps where A
motor
> > > Has its windings rated for 120 V may use 20 amps for the same hp. But
> > > using
> > > Different voltages on the same windings rated for some other voltage
the
> > > Ampere may increase as follows:
> > >
> > > Here is the results of a 180 VDC motor test I did using different
voltages
> > > At no load:
> > >
> > > Battery Pack Actual Volts Amperes Rpm
> > >
> > > 12 12.6 5 634
> > > 18 18.9 6 1013
> > > 24 25.4 6.2 1390
> > > 30 31.8 6.4 1773
> > > 36 37.8 6.6 2143
> > > 42 44.5 6.8 2521
> > > 48 51.2 7.0 2985
> > > 54 57.5 7.5 3270
> > > 60 63.7 8 3715
> > >
> > > There is a maximum voltage and ampere rating you can go over on a
motor.
> > > This is call the Service Factor (SF). If 115V motor has a rated SF of
115%
> > > And the motor has a ampere rating of 200 ampere for continuous running

> > > then
> > >
> > > 200A x 1.15 = 230 amps. The 115V motor can run on 115V x 1.15 = 132.25
V.
> > >
> > > On the label for the motor, there should be a Service Factor which may
say
> > > SF 1.25 for a DC motor. I don't why the ADC and Warp motors do not
have
> > > Motor label that list the specifications of the motor.
> > >
> > > My General Electric motor does. It list the DC motor as 165 volts at
175
> > > Amps at 32 HP with a SF of 1.25 meaning the over voltage can be about
208
> > > Volts and the over ampere can be 218 amperes continuous.
> > >
> > > Roland
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 11:03 AM
> > > Subject: The flow of current
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > If my motor is rated for 300 amps at 30 volts..
> > > >
> > > > If I increase the voltage ..To 36 volts will the amount of amps that
it
> > > > uses
> > > > decrease as the voltage increases..
> > > >
> > > > Or will the amps remain constant?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks Mitchell
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
>
>

--
Zeke Yewdall
Chief Electrical Engineer
Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company
Cell: 720.352.2508
Office: 303.459.0177
FAX documents to: 720.269.1240
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.cosunflower.com

CoSEIA Certified
Certified BP Solar Installer
National Association of Home Builders

Quotable Quote

"In the dark of the moon, in flying snow,
families dying, the world in danger,
I walk the rocky hillside
sowing clover."

Wendell Berry

```

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
```I have been wondering the same thing hoping to be able to use power
tools and an electric chainsaw from my battery pack.
I just remembered that they do make inverters for up to like 300v for
solar power systems. I wonder if they make one that will charge
batteries and generate ac...

On 7/15/07, Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
```
```The Outback inverters are the same as the Xantrex SW series -- 48
volts is the highest voltage (Same group of engineers designed most of
them).  Not the most practical to require your series/parallel
connections of the car battery pack every time you need backup power,
I think.

Exeltech does make inverters that take up to 120 volts DC input.  I
think it's their XP series.  The largest one they have is 1100 watts I
believe.  They do not have the automatic transfer switches and such
that the Xantrex and Outback have though.

A note on running things on DC.  Yes, alot off things don't care
whether it's AC or DC, as long as its somewhere around the right
voltage.  However, switches are one thing that have trouble with DC
due to it's propensity to arc.   Turning it on or off under power may

Z

On 7/15/07, Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Guys, it's remarkable you're checking into this right
> now, as I was just doing the same thing this week.
>
> Obviously, the higher the voltage, the lower the
> current draw.  Thus l would _love_ an inverter that
> went up to the voltage of my pack, 144V, and could
> pull 6A to power my fridge, plus another few amps for
> lights, fans, etc. in a rolling blackout or brownout
> event.
>
> Xantrex: ProSine model up to 24V, yields 1800W.  Would
> be around \$1800-2500 IIRC.
>
> Dear Mr. Bath,
>
> Thank you for contacting Solatron Technologies for
> your power inverting needs.  I spoke to our Technical
> Manager regarding your desire to power the home with
> the electric car battery during utility power outages.
>  He stated that although this is possible if you are
> able to rewire the 144 volt electric car battery to a
> 48 volt system, if the power outages are frequent or
> long lasting, he would recommend a separate battery
> bank altogether.
>
> A separate battery bank would allow for charging via
> an inverter and the utility grid power.  Once the
> utility power was down, the inverter system would pull
> power back from the batteries directly to a sub panel
> dedicated to the emergency loads only.
>
> If you can confirm the size/type batteries being used
> on the electric car and that they can be rewired to a
> 48 volt system, we can make a recommendation on a
> complete inverter system.  Most likely, you would want
> to utilize the Xantrex SW5548 inverter, which is
> priced at \$2,750.
>
> I look forward to hearing back from you.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Diana Howell
>
> PV Powered: Uses the grid to get what the sine wave
> "looks" like.  Thus, it is useless in this
> application.
>
> Outback: Still waiting to hear from.
>
> Hope that helps,
>
> --- "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > No, I'm not suggesting you use 12v to power it.
> > This would be
> > double-conversion in any event.
> >
> > You crack open the inverter and inject your pack
> > voltage after the first
> > DC-DC boost stage.
> >
> > It's easy to calculate the load at 12v.  Amps X
> > volts = Watts.
> >
> > 3000 Watts divided by 12 volts is 250 amps.  This is
> > not including
> > efficiency losses.  It'll likely be around 270A for
> > a cheap inverter.
> >
> > There are no EV DC-DC converters that will get
> > anywhere close to this.
> >
> > The other option is to run your loads directly off
> > the DC pack voltage.
> > Many modern AC loads will also with DC directly:
> > Computers, both Laptops and desktops
> > TV sets (more modern ones)
> > Electric heaters (without fan motors!)
> > Compact Fluorescent lamps
> > Incandescent lamps
> > Inverter driven Microwave ovens
> >
> > Just about anything WITHOUT a iron-core in it
> > somewhere is generally ok.
> > This means all of these are a no-no on DC:
> > heavy wall-wart powered stuff (light ones like
> > laptops use are ok)
> > AC motors
> > refrigeration equipment
> > Air compressors
> > Small things like Clock-radios (usually contain a
> > transformer)
> >
> > Things that might be OK with motors are those things
> > with brushed motors,
> > such as an angle grinder or many vacuum cleaners,
> > etc.
> >
> > If you wish to experiment, buy a glass fuse
> > assortment and make up a little
> > cable with an in-line fuse holder and standard
> > outlet on the end.  Look at
> > the nameplate of the appliance, choose a fuse close
> > to the amperage rating
> > and install it in the fuseholder.  This is for
> > safety.  (Disclaimer: Running
> > devices designed for AC on DC can be unsafe for the
> > device, yourself, and
> > the surrounding environment!)  Plug the appliance
> > in.  If it doesn't work,
> > or work correctly, try reversing the polarity
> > quickly.  If it still doesn't
> > work, unplug it right away to avoid possible damage.
> >  If it does appear to
> > work, then test all the functions, if it appears to
> > be normal you can add it
> > to your list.  Note that some power supplies will
> > not start correctly on one
> > polarity, so try both.
> >
> > Make sure nothing gets hot when run for a bit.  I've
> > run many compact
> > fluorescent lights, computers, TV sets, etc, off of
> > a 144v volt pack
> > successfully.
> >
> > If you find you can run most of your load this way,
> > then you may be able to
> > get by with a small inverter off your 12v system for
> > the few things which
> > don't like DC.
> >
> >
> > -Phil
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bill & Nancy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 11:47 AM
> > Subject: 12vdc/120vac inverter
> >
> >
> > > Hi Phil,
> > > I have been looking at this situation myelf. I was
> > looking for a 3000 watt
> > > inverter and found several using the above search
> > words. I found some
> > > staring at around \$400 to \$2000.
> > > Most sites don't list the amperage pull on the
> > 12volt battery. One site
> > > listed the amperage draw on their unit as 192
> > amps. The dc/dc for most
> > > ev's only put out 30-45 amps, so the battery would
> > be unable to hold it's
> > > charge nore than an hour. Let me know if you
> > figure a way around this
> > > limitation.
> > > Bill
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic?  My \$20 video/DVD
> has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
>                           ____
>                      __/__|__\ __
>   =D-------/    -  -         \
>                      'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?

```
```

--
Tehben
'90 Toyota 4x4 Pickup
'hElix EV'
evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225
```

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
``` And yes the car still has the clutch

Mitchell

```

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
```Does anyone have experience with these? They seem like they are well
priced, but I don't want to get into any hot water... ;)

http://www.batteryweb.com/toyo-detail.cfm?Model=6GFM200

--
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in
hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may
posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

```

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
```Yes, no, maybe.

At a given RPM increasing the voltage will increase the current, at a
given power level, increasing the voltage will decrease the current.

If you are using a motor controller, then increasing the voltage, might
allow more current at higher RPMs, but generally won't have any effect on
current at lower RPMs.
If you are using a motor controller, the battery amps will probably drop
at a given load, but the motor amps may go up, or stay the same.

The 300 amps rating is NOT the maximum current the motor can handle, it is
the maximum it can handle for the rated amount of time.  Depending on the
motor that rating might be seconds, minutes, hours or continuous (or
possibly something else).

To predict how a motor will really act, you need to see the motor's torque
curves.  These typically show the current vs. torque vs. HP vs. efficiency
at a variety of RPMs and one or more voltages.
>
> If my motor is rated for 300 amps at 30 volts..
>
> If I increase the voltage ..To 36 volts will the amount of amps that it
> uses
> decrease as the voltage increases..
>
> Or will the amps remain constant?
>
> Thanks Mitchell
>
>

--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
```

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
```Bad idea.  If it's a series wound motor, using 48V on a 30V motor and no
load (clutch disengaged) will pretty much guarantee the motor will rapidly
accelerate to self dissassembly speed.

Using 48V with full load (clutch engaged) will drap HUGE ammount of
current, possibly welding the contactor.

Use the contactor and 6V to 12V worth of batteries for this kind of testing.

Jumper cables can work, just make sure the last connection is far away
from the batteries (assuming Lead-Acid batteries) so you don't
accidentally ignite any residual hydrogen floating around.  Using an extra
(sacrifical) cable and a sacrifical chunk of steel/copper to make the last
connection might not be a bad idea either.  That way any arc damage is on
throw away parts.

> Dunno about that.... Today I spun my sepex motor up with jumper cables
> for fun (and to make sure it worked).  12 volts (from a running ICE
> car).  It turns nice, but it made a decent little spark at 12 volts,
> no load.  At load and some actual voltage, I'd be hesitant to use
> jumper cables....
>
> You'll need a main contactor anyway, regardless of controller.  So why
> not wire the main contactor in to a 48 volt battery bank or so, and
> fire it up?  If you are still using the clutch, you can start and stop
> the motor with no load for the test, so you won't be breaking full
> current.  Not sure how similar your motor is to mine, but its base
> speed (with full field voltage) is only 1000rpm, so that'd be okay for
> engaging the clutch at.
>
> Z
>
> On 7/15/07, storm connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Jumper cables?
>>
>> On 7/15/07, Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > Hello Metchell,
>> >
>> > You have to use a very big switch.  You could test it out on 12 volts
>> on one
>> > of those 500 amp red flag handle 12 battery cut off switch you can get
>> from
>> > a auto parts store.
>> >
>> > I use this type of switches to break in the motor brushes, which is
>> running
>> > the motor only, not in gear to drive the EV.
>> >
>> > Any higher voltage, you have to have a higher voltage rated switch, or
>> > circuit breaker that can break the arc, or if not, the motor will
>> continue
>> > to rotate even if you turn off a lower voltage switch on high voltage.
>> >
>> > Roland
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Roland
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 5:14 PM
>> > Subject: Re: The flow of current
>> >
>> >
>> > > Ok then .. Well what I am after is a trial run on the car before I
>> put
>> > > another 600 or 700 bucks into a controller.. I want to make sure it
>> is
>> > > going
>> > > to run ok.. So I want to know how much voltage to put on this motor
>> rated
>> > > for 30 volts and 300 amps  .. And take it for a little drive to make
>> sure
>> > > it
>> > > is all going to work .. Without frying the motor or anything.. With
>> just a
>> > > on off switch for the trial run..
>> > >
>> > > Thanks Mitchell
>> > >
>> > > -------Original Message-------
>> > >
>> > > From: Roland Wiench
>> > > Date: 7/15/2007 2:21:52 PM
>> > > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> > > Subject: Re: The flow of current
>> > >
>> > > Hello Phelps,
>> > >
>> > > Motors are inductive loads, where the ampere will rise with increase
>> > > voltage
>> > >
>> > > Unlike resistance loads as a heater, where if you have a 240 v
>> heater
>> > > Element at 8 amps, it will become 4 amps at 120 v.
>> > >
>> > > A motor that it windings are rated for 240 v may use 10 amps where A
>> motor
>> > > Has its windings rated for 120 V may use 20 amps for the same hp.
>> But
>> > > using
>> > > Different voltages on the same windings rated for some other voltage
>> the
>> > > Ampere may increase as follows:
>> > >
>> > > Here is the results of a 180 VDC motor test I did using different
>> voltages
>> > > At no load:
>> > >
>> > > Battery Pack Actual Volts Amperes Rpm
>> > >
>> > > 12 12.6 5 634
>> > > 18 18.9 6 1013
>> > > 24 25.4 6.2 1390
>> > > 30 31.8 6.4 1773
>> > > 36 37.8 6.6 2143
>> > > 42 44.5 6.8 2521
>> > > 48 51.2 7.0 2985
>> > > 54 57.5 7.5 3270
>> > > 60 63.7 8 3715
>> > >
>> > > There is a maximum voltage and ampere rating you can go over on a
>> motor.
>> > > This is call the Service Factor (SF). If 115V motor has a rated SF
>> of 115%
>> > > And the motor has a ampere rating of 200 ampere for continuous
>> running,
>> > > then
>> > >
>> > > 200A x 1.15 = 230 amps. The 115V motor can run on 115V x 1.15 =
>> 132.25 V.
>> > >
>> > > On the label for the motor, there should be a Service Factor which
>> may say
>> > > SF 1.25 for a DC motor. I don't why the ADC and Warp motors do not
>> have
>> > > Motor label that list the specifications of the motor.
>> > >
>> > > My General Electric motor does. It list the DC motor as 165 volts at
>> 175
>> > > Amps at 32 HP with a SF of 1.25 meaning the over voltage can be
>> > > Volts and the over ampere can be 218 amperes continuous.
>> > >
>> > > Roland
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > From: "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> > > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 11:03 AM
>> > > Subject: The flow of current
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > > If my motor is rated for 300 amps at 30 volts..
>> > > >
>> > > > If I increase the voltage ..To 36 volts will the amount of amps
>> that it
>> > > > uses
>> > > > decrease as the voltage increases..
>> > > >
>> > > > Or will the amps remain constant?
>> > > >
>> > > > Thanks Mitchell
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Zeke Yewdall
> Chief Electrical Engineer
> Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company
> Cell: 720.352.2508
> Office: 303.459.0177
> FAX documents to: 720.269.1240
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.cosunflower.com
>
> CoSEIA Certified
> Certified BP Solar Installer
> National Association of Home Builders
>
> Quotable Quote
>
> "In the dark of the moon, in flying snow,
> families dying, the world in danger,
> I walk the rocky hillside
> sowing clover."
>
> Wendell Berry
>
>

--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
```

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
```Did you just short the batteries out, or did you connect them to the motor?

Is this the motor that was mentioned earlier that wobbled?  If so was it
the shaft wobbling or the whole motor?  If it was the shaft, does the
motor have a bearing on the shaft side, or can yo move the shaft back and
forth?

> Here is more of the deal.. I used jumper cables with 2 12 volt batteries
> and
> the dam things lit on fire.. Ok they were cheap cables and I ran the
> batteries in series so I got 24 volts.
> But I want to see the motor work in the car. Before I spend the cash on
> the
> controller.
> So I will get some serious wire Like I have been told. Welders wire and a
> switch.. Maybe I will make a knife switch out of angle iron?? I have the
> flag switches.. Maybe 3 of them in line could handle the current .. What
> do
> you think on that?
> And well if I put 3 12 batteries in series so I got 36 volts would that be
> tolerated my the motor and the batteries?
>  for say 5 or 10 min?
>
> Mitchell
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Zeke Yewdall
> Date: 07/15/07 21:16:30
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: The flow of current
>
> Dunno about that.... Today I spun my sepex motor up with jumper cables
> For fun (and to make sure it worked). 12 volts (from a running ICE
> Car). It turns nice, but it made a decent little spark at 12 volts,
> No load. At load and some actual voltage, I'd be hesitant to use
> Jumper cables....
>
> You'll need a main contactor anyway, regardless of controller. So why
> Not wire the main contactor in to a 48 volt battery bank or so, and
> Fire it up? If you are still using the clutch, you can start and stop
> The motor with no load for the test, so you won't be breaking full
> Current. Not sure how similar your motor is to mine, but its base
> Speed (with full field voltage) is only 1000rpm, so that'd be okay for
> Engaging the clutch at.
>
> Z
>
> On 7/15/07, storm connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Jumper cables?
>>
>> On 7/15/07, Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > Hello Metchell,
>> >
>> > You have to use a very big switch. You could test it out on 12 volts
>> on
> one
>> > of those 500 amp red flag handle 12 battery cut off switch you can get
> from
>> > a auto parts store.
>> >
>> > I use this type of switches to break in the motor brushes, which is
> running
>> > the motor only, not in gear to drive the EV.
>> >
>> > Any higher voltage, you have to have a higher voltage rated switch, or
>> > circuit breaker that can break the arc, or if not, the motor will
> continue
>> > to rotate even if you turn off a lower voltage switch on high voltage.
>> >
>> > Roland
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Roland
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 5:14 PM
>> > Subject: Re: The flow of current
>> >
>> >
>> > > Ok then .. Well what I am after is a trial run on the car before I
>> put
>
>> > > another 600 or 700 bucks into a controller.. I want to make sure it
>> is
>
>> > > going
>> > > to run ok.. So I want to know how much voltage to put on this motor
> rated
>> > > for 30 volts and 300 amps .. And take it for a little drive to make
> sure
>> > > it
>> > > is all going to work .. Without frying the motor or anything.. With
> just a
>> > > on off switch for the trial run..
>> > >
>> > > Thanks Mitchell
>> > >
>> > > -------Original Message-------
>> > >
>> > > From: Roland Wiench
>> > > Date: 7/15/2007 2:21:52 PM
>> > > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> > > Subject: Re: The flow of current
>> > >
>> > > Hello Phelps,
>> > >
>> > > Motors are inductive loads, where the ampere will rise with increase
>> > > voltage
>> > >
>> > > Unlike resistance loads as a heater, where if you have a 240 v
>> heater
>> > > Element at 8 amps, it will become 4 amps at 120 v.
>> > >
>> > > A motor that it windings are rated for 240 v may use 10 amps where A
> motor
>> > > Has its windings rated for 120 V may use 20 amps for the same hp.
>> But
>> > > using
>> > > Different voltages on the same windings rated for some other voltage
> the
>> > > Ampere may increase as follows:
>> > >
>> > > Here is the results of a 180 VDC motor test I did using different
> voltages
>> > > At no load:
>> > >
>> > > Battery Pack Actual Volts Amperes Rpm
>> > >
>> > > 12 12.6 5 634
>> > > 18 18.9 6 1013
>> > > 24 25.4 6.2 1390
>> > > 30 31.8 6.4 1773
>> > > 36 37.8 6.6 2143
>> > > 42 44.5 6.8 2521
>> > > 48 51.2 7.0 2985
>> > > 54 57.5 7.5 3270
>> > > 60 63.7 8 3715
>> > >
>> > > There is a maximum voltage and ampere rating you can go over on a
> motor.
>> > > This is call the Service Factor (SF). If 115V motor has a rated SF
>> of
> 115%
>> > > And the motor has a ampere rating of 200 ampere for continuous
>> running
>
>> > > then
>> > >
>> > > 200A x 1.15 = 230 amps. The 115V motor can run on 115V x 1.15 =
>> 132.25
> V.
>> > >
>> > > On the label for the motor, there should be a Service Factor which
>> may
> say
>> > > SF 1.25 for a DC motor. I don't why the ADC and Warp motors do not
> have
>> > > Motor label that list the specifications of the motor.
>> > >
>> > > My General Electric motor does. It list the DC motor as 165 volts at
> 175
>> > > Amps at 32 HP with a SF of 1.25 meaning the over voltage can be
> 208
>> > > Volts and the over ampere can be 218 amperes continuous.
>> > >
>> > > Roland
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > From: "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> > > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 11:03 AM
>> > > Subject: The flow of current
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > > If my motor is rated for 300 amps at 30 volts..
>> > > >
>> > > > If I increase the voltage ..To 36 volts will the amount of amps
>> that
> it
>> > > > uses
>> > > > decrease as the voltage increases..
>> > > >
>> > > > Or will the amps remain constant?
>> > > >
>> > > > Thanks Mitchell
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Zeke Yewdall
> Chief Electrical Engineer
> Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company
> Cell: 720.352.2508
> Office: 303.459.0177
> FAX documents to: 720.269.1240
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.cosunflower.com
>
> CoSEIA Certified
> Certified BP Solar Installer
> National Association of Home Builders
>
> Quotable Quote
>
> "In the dark of the moon, in flying snow,
> families dying, the world in danger,
> I walk the rocky hillside
> sowing clover."
>
> Wendell Berry
>
>
>
>

--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
```

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
```Connected the cable to the motor which turned ,,

The motor has a little play in and out on the shaft.. Say one half inch.

Shaft wobbled not the motor
Mitchell

-------Original Message-------

From: Peter VanDerWal
Date: 7/15/2007 11:18:34 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: The flow of current

Did you just short the batteries out, or did you connect them to the motor?

Is this the motor that was mentioned earlier that wobbled? If so was it
The shaft wobbling or the whole motor? If it was the shaft, does the
Motor have a bearing on the shaft side, or can yo move the shaft back and
Forth?

> Here is more of the deal.. I used jumper cables with 2 12 volt batteries
> and
> the dam things lit on fire.. Ok they were cheap cables and I ran the
> batteries in series so I got 24 volts.
> But I want to see the motor work in the car. Before I spend the cash on
> the
> controller.
> So I will get some serious wire Like I have been told. Welders wire and a
> switch.. Maybe I will make a knife switch out of angle iron?? I have the
> flag switches.. Maybe 3 of them in line could handle the current .. What
> do
> you think on that?
> And well if I put 3 12 batteries in series so I got 36 volts would that be

> tolerated my the motor and the batteries?
> for say 5 or 10 min?
>
> Mitchell
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Zeke Yewdall
> Date: 07/15/07 21:16:30
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: The flow of current
>
> Dunno about that.... Today I spun my sepex motor up with jumper cables
> For fun (and to make sure it worked). 12 volts (from a running ICE
> Car). It turns nice, but it made a decent little spark at 12 volts,
> No load. At load and some actual voltage, I'd be hesitant to use
> Jumper cables....
>
> You'll need a main contactor anyway, regardless of controller. So why
> Not wire the main contactor in to a 48 volt battery bank or so, and
> Fire it up? If you are still using the clutch, you can start and stop
> The motor with no load for the test, so you won't be breaking full
> Current. Not sure how similar your motor is to mine, but its base
> Speed (with full field voltage) is only 1000rpm, so that'd be okay for
> Engaging the clutch at.
>
> Z
>
> On 7/15/07, storm connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Jumper cables?
>>
>> On 7/15/07, Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > Hello Metchell,
>> >
>> > You have to use a very big switch. You could test it out on 12 volts
>> on
> one
>> > of those 500 amp red flag handle 12 battery cut off switch you can get
> from
>> > a auto parts store.
>> >
>> > I use this type of switches to break in the motor brushes, which is
> running
>> > the motor only, not in gear to drive the EV.
>> >
>> > Any higher voltage, you have to have a higher voltage rated switch, or
>> > circuit breaker that can break the arc, or if not, the motor will
> continue
>> > to rotate even if you turn off a lower voltage switch on high voltage.
>> >
>> > Roland
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Roland
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 5:14 PM
>> > Subject: Re: The flow of current
>> >
>> >
>> > > Ok then .. Well what I am after is a trial run on the car before I
>> put
>
>> > > another 600 or 700 bucks into a controller.. I want to make sure it
>> is
>
>> > > going
>> > > to run ok.. So I want to know how much voltage to put on this motor
> rated
>> > > for 30 volts and 300 amps .. And take it for a little drive to make
> sure
>> > > it
>> > > is all going to work .. Without frying the motor or anything.. With
> just a
>> > > on off switch for the trial run..
>> > >
>> > > Thanks Mitchell
>> > >
>> > > -------Original Message-------
>> > >
>> > > From: Roland Wiench
>> > > Date: 7/15/2007 2:21:52 PM
>> > > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>> > > Subject: Re: The flow of current
>> > >
>> > > Hello Phelps,
>> > >
>> > > Motors are inductive loads, where the ampere will rise with increase
>> > > voltage
>> > >
>> > > Unlike resistance loads as a heater, where if you have a 240 v
>> heater
>> > > Element at 8 amps, it will become 4 amps at 120 v.
>> > >
>> > > A motor that it windings are rated for 240 v may use 10 amps where A
> motor
>> > > Has its windings rated for 120 V may use 20 amps for the same hp.
>> But
>> > > using
>> > > Different voltages on the same windings rated for some other voltage
> the
>> > > Ampere may increase as follows:
>> > >
>> > > Here is the results of a 180 VDC motor test I did using different
> voltages
>> > > At no load:
>> > >
>> > > Battery Pack Actual Volts Amperes Rpm
>> > >
>> > > 12 12.6 5 634
>> > > 18 18.9 6 1013
>> > > 24 25.4 6.2 1390
>> > > 30 31.8 6.4 1773
>> > > 36 37.8 6.6 2143
>> > > 42 44.5 6.8 2521
>> > > 48 51.2 7.0 2985
>> > > 54 57.5 7.5 3270
>> > > 60 63.7 8 3715
>> > >
>> > > There is a maximum voltage and ampere rating you can go over on a
> motor.
>> > > This is call the Service Factor (SF). If 115V motor has a rated SF
>> of
> 115%
>> > > And the motor has a ampere rating of 200 ampere for continuous
>> running
>
>> > > then
>> > >
>> > > 200A x 1.15 = 230 amps. The 115V motor can run on 115V x 1.15 =
>> 132.25
> V.
>> > >
>> > > On the label for the motor, there should be a Service Factor which
>> may
> say
>> > > SF 1.25 for a DC motor. I don't why the ADC and Warp motors do not
> have
>> > > Motor label that list the specifications of the motor.
>> > >
>> > > My General Electric motor does. It list the DC motor as 165 volts at
> 175
>> > > Amps at 32 HP with a SF of 1.25 meaning the over voltage can be
> 208
>> > > Volts and the over ampere can be 218 amperes continuous.
>> > >
>> > > Roland
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > From: "Phelps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> > > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 11:03 AM
>> > > Subject: The flow of current
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > >
>> > > > If my motor is rated for 300 amps at 30 volts..
>> > > >
>> > > > If I increase the voltage ..To 36 volts will the amount of amps
>> that
> it
>> > > > uses
>> > > > decrease as the voltage increases..
>> > > >
>> > > > Or will the amps remain constant?
>> > > >
>> > > > Thanks Mitchell
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Zeke Yewdall
> Chief Electrical Engineer
> Sunflower Solar, A NewPoint Energy Company
> Cell: 720.352.2508
> Office: 303.459.0177
> FAX documents to: 720.269.1240
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.cosunflower.com
>
> CoSEIA Certified
> Certified BP Solar Installer
> National Association of Home Builders
>
> Quotable Quote
>
> "In the dark of the moon, in flying snow,
> families dying, the world in danger,
> I walk the rocky hillside
> sowing clover."
>
> Wendell Berry
>
>
>
>

--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

```

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
```I have a 144v pack. It runs a laptop power supply brick and my
electric chainsaw just fine. I expect that any tools with brush type
motors will work fine-but the switches might have a short life.  See
phil's answer How to run appliances off your EV pack at 3:33 July 15

On 7/15/07, Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
```
```I have been wondering the same thing hoping to be able to use power
tools and an electric chainsaw from my battery pack.
I just remembered that they do make inverters for up to like 300v for
solar power systems. I wonder if they make one that will charge
batteries and generate ac...

On 7/15/07, Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The Outback inverters are the same as the Xantrex SW series -- 48
> volts is the highest voltage (Same group of engineers designed most of
> them).  Not the most practical to require your series/parallel
> connections of the car battery pack every time you need backup power,
> I think.
>
> Exeltech does make inverters that take up to 120 volts DC input.  I
> think it's their XP series.  The largest one they have is 1100 watts I
> believe.  They do not have the automatic transfer switches and such
> that the Xantrex and Outback have though.
>
> A note on running things on DC.  Yes, alot off things don't care
> whether it's AC or DC, as long as its somewhere around the right
> voltage.  However, switches are one thing that have trouble with DC
> due to it's propensity to arc.   Turning it on or off under power may
>
> Z
>
> On 7/15/07, Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Guys, it's remarkable you're checking into this right
> > now, as I was just doing the same thing this week.
> >
> > Obviously, the higher the voltage, the lower the
> > current draw.  Thus l would _love_ an inverter that
> > went up to the voltage of my pack, 144V, and could
> > pull 6A to power my fridge, plus another few amps for
> > lights, fans, etc. in a rolling blackout or brownout
> > event.
> >
> > Xantrex: ProSine model up to 24V, yields 1800W.  Would
> > be around \$1800-2500 IIRC.
> >
> > Dear Mr. Bath,
> >
> > Thank you for contacting Solatron Technologies for
> > your power inverting needs.  I spoke to our Technical
> > Manager regarding your desire to power the home with
> > the electric car battery during utility power outages.
> >  He stated that although this is possible if you are
> > able to rewire the 144 volt electric car battery to a
> > 48 volt system, if the power outages are frequent or
> > long lasting, he would recommend a separate battery
> > bank altogether.
> >
> > A separate battery bank would allow for charging via
> > an inverter and the utility grid power.  Once the
> > utility power was down, the inverter system would pull
> > power back from the batteries directly to a sub panel
> > dedicated to the emergency loads only.
> >
> > If you can confirm the size/type batteries being used
> > on the electric car and that they can be rewired to a
> > 48 volt system, we can make a recommendation on a
> > complete inverter system.  Most likely, you would want
> > to utilize the Xantrex SW5548 inverter, which is
> > priced at \$2,750.
> >
> > I look forward to hearing back from you.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Diana Howell
> >
> > PV Powered: Uses the grid to get what the sine wave
> > "looks" like.  Thus, it is useless in this
> > application.
> >
> > Outback: Still waiting to hear from.
> >
> > Hope that helps,
> >
> > --- "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > No, I'm not suggesting you use 12v to power it.
> > > This would be
> > > double-conversion in any event.
> > >
> > > You crack open the inverter and inject your pack
> > > voltage after the first
> > > DC-DC boost stage.
> > >
> > > It's easy to calculate the load at 12v.  Amps X
> > > volts = Watts.
> > >
> > > 3000 Watts divided by 12 volts is 250 amps.  This is
> > > not including
> > > efficiency losses.  It'll likely be around 270A for
> > > a cheap inverter.
> > >
> > > There are no EV DC-DC converters that will get
> > > anywhere close to this.
> > >
> > > The other option is to run your loads directly off
> > > the DC pack voltage.
> > > Many modern AC loads will also with DC directly:
> > > Computers, both Laptops and desktops
> > > TV sets (more modern ones)
> > > Electric heaters (without fan motors!)
> > > Compact Fluorescent lamps
> > > Incandescent lamps
> > > Inverter driven Microwave ovens
> > >
> > > Just about anything WITHOUT a iron-core in it
> > > somewhere is generally ok.
> > > This means all of these are a no-no on DC:
> > > heavy wall-wart powered stuff (light ones like
> > > laptops use are ok)
> > > AC motors
> > > refrigeration equipment
> > > Air compressors
> > > Small things like Clock-radios (usually contain a
> > > transformer)
> > >
> > > Things that might be OK with motors are those things
> > > with brushed motors,
> > > such as an angle grinder or many vacuum cleaners,
> > > etc.
> > >
> > > If you wish to experiment, buy a glass fuse
> > > assortment and make up a little
> > > cable with an in-line fuse holder and standard
> > > outlet on the end.  Look at
> > > the nameplate of the appliance, choose a fuse close
> > > to the amperage rating
> > > and install it in the fuseholder.  This is for
> > > safety.  (Disclaimer: Running
> > > devices designed for AC on DC can be unsafe for the
> > > device, yourself, and
> > > the surrounding environment!)  Plug the appliance
> > > in.  If it doesn't work,
> > > or work correctly, try reversing the polarity
> > > quickly.  If it still doesn't
> > > work, unplug it right away to avoid possible damage.
> > >  If it does appear to
> > > work, then test all the functions, if it appears to
> > > be normal you can add it
> > > to your list.  Note that some power supplies will
> > > not start correctly on one
> > > polarity, so try both.
> > >
> > > Make sure nothing gets hot when run for a bit.  I've
> > > run many compact
> > > fluorescent lights, computers, TV sets, etc, off of
> > > a 144v volt pack
> > > successfully.
> > >
> > > If you find you can run most of your load this way,
> > > then you may be able to
> > > get by with a small inverter off your 12v system for
> > > the few things which
> > > don't like DC.
> > >
> > >
> > > -Phil
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Bill & Nancy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: "(-Phil-)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 11:47 AM
> > > Subject: 12vdc/120vac inverter
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi Phil,
> > > > I have been looking at this situation myelf. I was
> > > looking for a 3000 watt
> > > > inverter and found several using the above search
> > > words. I found some
> > > > staring at around \$400 to \$2000.
> > > > Most sites don't list the amperage pull on the
> > > 12volt battery. One site
> > > > listed the amperage draw on their unit as 192
> > > amps. The dc/dc for most
> > > > ev's only put out 30-45 amps, so the battery would
> > > be unable to hold it's
> > > > charge nore than an hour. Let me know if you
> > > figure a way around this
> > > > limitation.
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic?  My \$20 video/DVD
> > has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> > www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> >                           ____
> >                      __/__|__\ __
> >   =D-------/    -  -         \
> >                      'O'-----'O'-'
> > Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
>

--
Tehben
'90 Toyota 4x4 Pickup
'hElix EV'
evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225

```
```

--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
```

--- End Message ---