EV Digest 7044

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Is THIS the PHEV announcement ?
        by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Number of E-mails
        by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) RE: batteries: another increasing range question
        by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Fwd: best way to transport a newly purchased EV
        by BrownGassyTurd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Not a 'Heavy metal garden tractor'
        by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Simple Controller
        by Thomas Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Understanding SOC 
        by Jeff Mccabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) RE: batteries: another increasing range question
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) RE: Understanding SOC 
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) RE: Not a 'Heavy metal garden tractor'
        by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) RE: batteries: another increasing range question
        by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) RE: Tell Me Which DC to DC Converter I Should Use
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) RE: batteries: another increasing range question
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) RE: Understanding SOC 
        by Jeff Mccabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) RE: batteries: another increasing range question
        by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) RE: Understanding SOC 
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) RE: batteries: another increasing range question
        by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: "Tree House" Controller
        by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Drawbacks re Zap Xebra motor?...
        by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) RE: Understanding SOC 
        by Jeff Mccabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) RE: batteries: another increasing range question
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) RE: Understanding SOC 
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) RE: best way to transport a newly purchased EV
        by Michael Mohlere <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) Curtis Battery Book
        by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 25) Re: Tell Me Which DC to DC Converter I Should Use
        by John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 26) RE: Understanding SOC 
        by Jeff Mccabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 27) Re: 6v or 12v
        by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 28) RE: batteries: another increasing range question
        by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 29) RE: Understanding SOC 
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hm. Interesting, although the lease program to only government
entities sounds fishy. Also no mention is made of any specs. Also, the
article is not terribly positive on EVs.

Besides.. they aren't doing it in the US, where you would think they
would give it a first go considering their third party competition for
the technology.

So.....Hm. :-)

On 7/20/07, Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Is THIS the PHEV announcement Every One has been Waiting For ?

Dateline TOYOTA Japan 20 - July
Off the Google - Alert - Electric Car News Feed...

(  http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200707200126.html )
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle,  WA  98115-7230
Day:  206 850-8535
Eve:  206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web:     http://www.seattleeva.org




--
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in
peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the
hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may
posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

-----Samuel Adams

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<snip>
People post when something catches their interest.  Threads feed on
themselves.  Sometimes the flames actually die down, giving us a good
opportunity to toast some marshmallows.  ;-)




Ha! :-) Yeah.. summer it would come down because folks are workiing on
their EVs a lot and not jawing so much :)

Bet money it goes back up in the third week of august!

--T

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I appreciate all the suggestions.  If they I get AGMs, and drove the route I 
quoted before, at most 3 times a week, would they last 4 months?  After that, 
they would mostly get a 4 mile round trip drive, occasionally, as I ride in a 
vanpool to work.  

So the question is, if I only need the range for 90 days, not consecutive, 
would that work?  With a pack that of 144V, 70 - 80 Ah batteries, at the C/20 
rate?

Thanks again,
Brian

 On Wed Jul 18 11:29 , Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent:

>Joe wrote: 
>
>> Optima YT's would give you 75 Ah, so would double your range; 
>> would do it in the summer, or spring/fall, but maybe not in
>> winter, unless you use G31's, which are around 90 Ah.
>
>You gotta tell the rest of us where you buy your Optimas! ;^>
>
>The Optima D34 (YT) and D34M (BT) (Group 34) batteries I can buy are
>rated 55Ah C/20, and are good for about 35-40Ah in the real world.  The
>D31M (Group 31) is only rated 75Ah C/20, and so basedon the Group 34
>performance would be good for about 48-55Ah in the real world:
>
>http://www.optimabatteries.com/publish/optima/americas0/en/config/produ
>ct_info/marine/technical_specs.html>
>
>I still wouldn't suggest using AGMs in this application since they just
>aren't going to last very long if cycled deeply (75-80%DOD) every
>outing.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Roger.

---- Msg sent via @=WebMail - http://webmail.usu.edu/

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For the EVDL as well.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: BrownGassyTurd
Date: Jul 20, 2007 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: best way to transport a newly purchased EV
To: Michael Mohlere


The more the merrier.

Manny

On 7/20/07, Michael Mohlere <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I added the truck!!! Cool page....I'll pass the word out to the MAEAA list
if you want...

Mike


From: BrownGassyTurd
To: "Michael Mohlere"
Subject: Re: best way to transport a newly purchased EV
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 08:24:51 -0700

Yeah, don't have a "Name My Car Party" at least not with my "friends".
Of course, they say they were not talking about the car...
I'll be in a 70's Disco Metallic Brown car for awhile, so I may as
well roll with it.
LMAO
I did already reserve a replacement email address for when I finally
do get a paint job.
(Final Phase of Project)

I think I paid a fair price for everything (or maybe too much as the
seller said "OK" to my
offer pretty fast.) Live and Learn. A local EV club member wants to
trade his larger motor for my Warp Impulse 9; as he has very little
room in his car and EVery inch counts (that didn't come out right.)
Finally, It took me a long time to switch to Google, but now, I can
not see me EVer leaving it...

PS.
Once you get a picture of your EV in hand, sign in to my Frap. It is
way cool to see where fellow EV'rs are on an animated Google map.
(Aw crap, I'm late for work...)

Manny
--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1117
http://EVorBust.blogspot.com

On 7/20/07, Michael Mohlere  wrote:
>Manny -
>
>Thanks for the info...interesting moniker ya got there....!!!  I requested
>a
>quote via the web site - will let you know what comes of it if .  Checked
>out the web page for the BGT ...  I would imagine you picked up that motor
>(netgain 9") for a song...quite a find!
>
>Also, how do you like "gmail"? I've been using hotmail for years, but have
>considered switching of late....
>
>Thx, Mike
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Item 130135897618 on ebay.
This would be like showing up to the Wayland
international and find out Tim's racing a GEM!
Rod
--- Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Is THIS the PHEV announcement Every One has been
> Waiting For ?
> 
> Dateline TOYOTA Japan 20 - July
> Off the Google - Alert - Electric Car News Feed...
> 
> ( 
>
http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200707200126.html
> )
> -- 
> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> Seattle EV Association
> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> Seattle,  WA  98115-7230
> Day:  206 850-8535
> Eve:  206 524-1351
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web:     http://www.seattleeva.org
> 
> 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> By about 15mph the voltage is about 140-180V depending on SOC.
oops silly me, not dependent on SOC.

Thomas Ward wrote:
Your motor is series?

I think this may be because at about 7mph the voltage in the armature of this sepex motor is already about 90volts 90V x 200A is a > 15KW.
By about 15mph the voltage is about 140-180V depending on SOC.
The voltage in a series motor at 7-15mph is going to be about 10-20V ? so it needs higher amps.

I guess acceleration is relative but 0-60 in the van seems OK to me probably about 30 seconds, its fairly aerodynamic, petrol version does about 45mpg.

Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Something doesn't add up.  My truck weighs 1.5 tons.  My controller does
550 amps, motor loop, and 350 amps battery loop.  Acceleration is
lethargic, 0-60mph in about 1.5 minutes.

I have always been curious about the need for high amps.

The documentation for Citroen Berlingos states that peak current is 200
amps, and I think this is probably correct because the IGBT is only
rated 300 amps.  There is more than enough acceleration. Vehicle weighs
2 tonnes.

The motor is a sepex, is that why Citroen can get away with this low
amperage and still have acceleration at low speed?

Perhaps this a way forward for budget controllers, 100 amp continuous +
sepex motor?


Rich Rudman wrote:

300 amps and 300 volts... Not even Curtis amps.... Hoo ho ho... Good one
there...







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Help please!

My mane is jeff McCabe. 
 Ive had my conversion on the road now for two weeks
now and im trying to get a better understanding on how
to gauge my DOD. I have a 928 Porsche with a 9"adc,
1200 Raptor and 26 pc1500 batteryies.
 My soc meter reads 100% for a full charge and
decreases % depending on dod. Ive made two runs the
last few weeks of 43 and 45 miles. Bothe times taking
individual vbattery voltage down to 12.08-12.1,
measured right after I have stopped.Pack voltage read
157.2-157.7 also.I know you have allot of time using
the odysseys and would like to know what you can
safetly pull the voltage down to per battery and pack
for an 80% dod.
  I Have the Odyssey owners manual that states 11.8
volts  for an 80% dod.Just wnated to know if this was
advised. My normal commute Is less than 20 miles , so
I wont be taking the battery below 50% very often.
Thanks for any guidance ,
Jeff Mccabe
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/736

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

> If they I get AGMs, and 
> drove the route I quoted before, at most 3 times a week, 
> would they last 4 months?  After that, they would mostly get 
> a 4 mile round trip drive, occasionally, as I ride in a 
> vanpool to work.  
> 
> So the question is, if I only need the range for 90 days, not 
> consecutive, would that work?  With a pack that of 144V, 70 - 
> 80 Ah batteries, at the C/20 rate?

A 144V string of Optima D31Ms (75Ah C/20) would probably handle this OK.
If you wanted to try using some other AGM, you would need to determine
if they will tolerate seeing discharge rates in the 400-500A range, and
what their actual capacity would be at your typical discharge rate; not
all AGMs are well-suited to EV use.

But... why are you so intent to use AGMs again?  The best price I found
in a quick Internet search is $190/ea, so this would be a $2300 pack,
which is a fair bit of money to risk throwing away needlessly.  Do you
know how you killed your first set of AGMs?  Do you have regs on your
batteries?  What do you have for a charger?  If you don't have the care
and feeding of the AGMs covered properly you will murder them quickly
even if you aren't discharging them to death.

In a Beetle conversion, I wouldn't expect you to have any problem
accomodating 120-144V of flooded 12V batteries (in terms of being able
to install them upright and acess them for occasional watering).  The
12V floodeds will tolerate deep cyling and less than perfect charging
better than AGMs.

Cheers,

Roger.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Mccabe wrote: 

>  My soc meter reads 100% for a full charge and
> decreases % depending on dod. Ive made two runs the
> last few weeks of 43 and 45 miles. Bothe times taking
> individual vbattery voltage down to 12.08-12.1,
> measured right after I have stopped.

An open circuit voltage of right about 2.0V/cell or 12V/battery
indicates they are basically empty (100% DOD).

> would like to know what you can safetly pull the
> voltage down to per battery and pack for an 80% dod.

That's a tougher question.  The voltage normally used is 1.75V/cell or
10.5V/battery under load as indicating 100%DOD.

It sounds like you are getting about 43-45mi to 100%DOD, so 80%DOD would
be somewhere around 34-35mi under the same driving conditions.

What do you have for an SOC meter? Is it a Link10/E-Meter or some meter
that estimates SOC based on battery voltage only?

>   I Have the Odyssey owners manual that states 11.8
> volts  for an 80% dod.

That would be the voltage under load (while driving), not open-circuit
after stopping.

> My normal commute Is less than 20 miles , so
> I wont be taking the battery below 50% very often.

Based on your information above, it sounds like a 20mi trip would be
right around 50%DOD under the same driving conditions as your 43-45mi
runs were made.  When the weather cools, 20mi will be more than 50%DOD
unless you have battery heaters to keep the batteries warm.

Cheers,

Roger.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Wow, it has 50% more battery capacity than my Black & Decker battery powered push mower and can run for up to 6 times as long not to mention you get to ride. Sign me up...


From: Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Not a 'Heavy metal garden tractor'
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 12:40:00 -0700 (PDT)

Item 130135897618 on ebay.
This would be like showing up to the Wayland
international and find out Tim's racing a GEM!
Rod

_________________________________________________________________
http://liveearth.msn.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:08 PM 7/20/2007, Roger Stockton wrote:
But... why are you so intent to use AGMs again?  The best price I found
in a quick Internet search is $190/ea, so this would be a $2300 pack,

Cheaper than that at CostCo.
Also http://www.batteriesareus.com
Has a free shipping for the next couple of days on YT's.
D850U Qty 9 for $155
They have other models as well - and I can never figure out the model numbers...

--
John G. Lussmyer      mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....         
http://www.CasaDelGato.com

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--- Begin Message ---
Richard Acuti wrote: 

> So: If mine died, what is available in that input/output 
> voltage and power range? Just give me some brand names
> and I'll look them up.

The Curtis 1400E will run from 65%-115% of nominal input voltage, and
there is a 120/144V model:

<http://curtisinst.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=cProducts.dspProductCategory
&catID=16>

Have a look at the datasheet.  I think the models of interest to you
would be:

1400E-120-1201 (13.5V @ 28A output, 120V nominal input)
1400E-120-1211 (13.5V @ 22A output, 120V nominal input)
1400E-120-1212 (14.0V @ 282 output, 120V nominal input)

Cheers,

Roger.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John G. Lussmyer wrote: 

> At 01:08 PM 7/20/2007, Roger Stockton wrote:
> >But... why are you so intent to use AGMs again?  The best 
> >price I found in a quick Internet search is $190/ea, so
> >this would be a $2300 pack,
> 
> Cheaper than that at CostCo.
> Also http://www.batteriesareus.com
> Has a free shipping for the next couple of days on YT's.
> D850U Qty 9 for $155

The D850U is the Group34 YT with top and side terminals; a better choice
for this size is the D750S (top post only) for $145/ea (qty 10+), if you
want YTs.  I'd actually go for the BT myself to get the threaded stud
for reg/balancer connections in addition to the SAE posts for the
traction wiring.  Plus the BT D900M is cheaper: $140/ea (qty 10+).

I was referring to the larger D31M, and batteriesareus is actually where
I found the $190/ea price.  Other places were between $210-230/ea.  I
hadn't scrolled to the bottom of the page where the quantity pricing is,
so it turns out that they can be had for $165/ea (qty 10-14).

What's Costco's price on the D31M?  I don't think I've seen anything but
the smaller D34 at my local Costcos.

Anyway, the exact cost isn't the point; the point is that the AGM will
cost more than a similar size flooded and can be murdered more easily so
is a riskier option unless other factors dictate their use.

Cheers,

Roger.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Jeff Mccabe wrote: 
> 
> >  My soc meter reads 100% for a full charge and
> > decreases % depending on dod. Ive made two runs
> the
> > last few weeks of 43 and 45 miles. Bothe times
> taking
> > individual vbattery voltage down to 12.08-12.1,
> > measured right after I have stopped.
> 
> An open circuit voltage of right about 2.0V/cell or
> 12V/battery
> indicates they are basically empty (100% DOD).

Im using Odessey Mil. spec. there claim is 11.6 open
circuit voltage for 100%dod.

> 
> > would like to know what you can safetly pull the
> > voltage down to per battery and pack for an 80%
> dod.
> 
> That's a tougher question.  The voltage normally
> used is 1.75V/cell or
> 10.5V/battery under load as indicating 100%DOD.
> 
> It sounds like you are getting about 43-45mi to
> 100%DOD, so 80%DOD would
> be somewhere around 34-35mi under the same driving
> conditions.
> 
> What do you have for an SOC meter? Is it a
> Link10/E-Meter or some meter
> that estimates SOC based on battery voltage only?

percentage estimate of soc meter.

> 
> >   I Have the Odyssey owners manual that states
> 11.8
> > volts  for an 80% dod.
> 
> That would be the voltage under load (while
> driving), not open-circuit
> after stopping.

The manual specifally states open circuit voltage of
11.8v is 80% dod, 11.6 is 100%
thanks,Jeff





> 
> > My normal commute Is less than 20 miles , so
> > I wont be taking the battery below 50% very often.
> 
> Based on your information above, it sounds like a
> 20mi trip would be
> right around 50%DOD under the same driving
> conditions as your 43-45mi
> runs were made.  When the weather cools, 20mi will
> be more than 50%DOD
> unless you have battery heaters to keep the
> batteries warm.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Roger.
> 
> 

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--- Begin Message ---
At 01:50 PM 7/20/2007, Roger Stockton wrote:
What's Costco's price on the D31M?  I don't think I've seen anything but
the smaller D34 at my local Costcos.

Sorry, I was thinking D34's with CostCo.

--
John G. Lussmyer      mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....         
http://www.CasaDelGato.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Mccabe wrote: 

> Im using Odessey Mil. spec. there claim is 11.6 open
> circuit voltage for 100%dod.

> The manual specifally states open circuit voltage of
> 11.8v is 80% dod, 11.6 is 100%

Well, good luck with that then.  I have the manual too.

Read the part in the manual where they provide the spec table for the
PC1500.  Discharge to 1.67V/cell (under load) for 100% DOD, just like
every other PbA battery (except most stop at 1.75V/cell unless the
discharge rate is high relative to the battery capacity, or the
manufacturer is trying to exaggerate their battery's performance).

I've run enough capacity tests on enough different batteries to say with
some confidence that once you have discharged the battery to 100%DOD
(1.75V/cell, or 1.67V/cell if you prefer), and remove the load, the
voltage will recover to very nearly 12V/battery in about 15-30min.  If
you try discharging your batteries until they are recovering to only
11.8V after 6-8hr rest (as described in the manual), they will not last
as you will be over-discharging one or more cells in order to get them
that low.

Cheers,

Roger.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:50 PM 7/20/2007, Roger Stockton wrote:
> Cheaper than that at CostCo.
> Also http://www.batteriesareus.com
> Has a free shipping for the next couple of days on YT's.
> D850U Qty 9 for $155

The D850U is the Group34 YT with top and side terminals; a better choice
for this size is the D750S (top post only) for $145/ea (qty 10+), if you
want YTs.  I'd actually go for the BT myself to get the threaded stud
for reg/balancer connections in addition to the SAE posts for the
traction wiring.  Plus the BT D900M is cheaper: $140/ea (qty 10+).

The Cheaper price on the D900M's makes me suspicious that they aren't really the full deep cycle battery. Since I'm about to replace my Sparrow pack (13 batteries) I'm REALLY tempted by the $140 price...

--
John G. Lussmyer      mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....         
http://www.CasaDelGato.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
wow, that had all the objectivity of a 'support the troops sign'
is daddy in his sweatty wife beater getting afraid that his kids might succeed?

Lee Hart wrote:
If you lower your expectations enough, then a simple PWM controller is possible. The main tradeoffs are:

 - It will be acoustically noisy (you can hear it operating),
 - It will be slightly less efficient (a few percent).
 - Power will be modest, like a Curtis controller.
 - It won't be "idiot proof", i.e. it will have little or no
   protection from overtemperature, undervoltage, overcurrent, etc.
 - It will have somewhat "lumpy" operation; things like a small
   lurch when starting out, or a throttle response that doesn't
   match a normal ICE's, etc.
 - There will be "surprise" failure modes, due to design or
   assembly errors (stuff you don't know when you build it).

SCRs are cheap, rugged, and easy to turn on (even easier than MOSFETs or IGBTs). The tradeoff is that they are hard to turn off. The classic method is to have a big inductor, a big capacitor, and 1 or 2 extra big SCRs or diodes. The circuits are very basic and well documented; it's just that these are big parts!

could not the IGBTt just be in line with the motor and batteries
switched on and off by a gate current? I'm well aware of the problems
involved with real controllers, it just seems like a solid state
on/off switch could be rigged up without any bells or whistles.

If you're using the IGBT as a solid-state contactor, then there are no switching loss concerns. You just have to deal with the heat produced by its 3v drop at full current.

You will always need a freewheel diode. It is easiest to get an IGBT module that has one built-in, as it will naturally have short leads and be matched to the IGBT's capabilities.

If you want to duty-cycle modulate that IGBT to make a PWM controller, then it gets interesting. Now you have to deal with switching losses, which can exceed conduction losses (twice the heat, which means twice the cooling and/or having to use the parts at half their ratings). And, you have to make fast, accurate measurements in noisy high-power switching circuits, for current limit and voltage protection to work.

I think the trouble with simple cheap controllers is the "tree house" problem. It goes like this:

1. Kids want a tree house. They know they can scrounge up some scrap
   lumber, find a can of rusty nails in the garage, steal dad's hammer
   and saw, and build it in a day or two!

2. But dad knows it will be a ramshackle structure, badly built,
   probably unsafe, and certainly ugly.

What's likely to happen?

A. Kids don't tell dad. They build it themselves. It takes a week
   instead of a month, due to all the "surprises" along the way.
   They smash thumbs, get splinters, bend nails, need to scrounge
   more materials, but manage to cobble something together. It looks
   and works terrible; but they learned a lot and love it anyway.

B. Dad gets involved. He says, "We have to do this right". He makes
   plans, buys materials, tries to supervise but winds up doing it
   himself because the kid's workmanship is so poor. It takes him
   all summer to build it. It looks great and is safe; but the kids
   rarely use it; they're off on some other hot new interest.

It's hard for experts to remember that beginners have far lower standards of quality and performance. The expert knows how to do it "right" -- build something that even he would be proud to use. But it's very hard for him to build a "tree house controller" that is disgustingly cheap crude and primitive.

But the beginner, having no experience with real controllers, may be perfectly happy with a "tree house controller", thrown together out of cheap surplus parts, that works but has all sorts of problems.

The middle ground is difficult to achieve. It would be like:

C. Dad supervises, but forces himself to keep his hands in his pockets
   and his mouth shut most of the time. He shows them how to use a
   hammer and saw, but doesn't do the work for them (so they learn how
   to do it themselves). He shows them how to make strong joints so it
   won't fall apart, but lets them do it their way (so they learn the
   consequences of not doing it right). Dad knows that learning is the
   real goal; not the end product itself.

The end result is a tree house that still looks pretty crude; but it is a heck of a lot stronger and safer that it would have been without adult supervision. And the kids still love it, because they made it themselves!

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Jeff Mccabe wrote: 
> 
> > Im using Odessey Mil. spec. there claim is 11.6
> open
> > circuit voltage for 100%dod.
> 
> > The manual specifally states open circuit voltage
> of
> > 11.8v is 80% dod, 11.6 is 100%
> 
> Well, good luck with that then.  I have the manual
> too.
> 
> Read the part in the manual where they provide the
> spec table for the
> PC1500.  Discharge to 1.67V/cell (under load) for
> 100% DOD, just like
> every other PbA battery (except most stop at
> 1.75V/cell unless the
> discharge rate is high relative to the battery
> capacity, or the
> manufacturer is trying to exaggerate their battery's
> performance).
> 
> I've run enough capacity tests on enough different
> batteries to say with
> some confidence that once you have discharged the
> battery to 100%DOD
> (1.75V/cell, or 1.67V/cell if you prefer), and
> remove the load, the
> voltage will recover to very nearly 12V/battery in
> about 15-30min.  If
> you try discharging your batteries until they are
> recovering to only
> 11.8V after 6-8hr rest (as described in the manual),
> they will not last
> as you will be over-discharging one or more cells in
> order to get them
> that low.

I agree, I also read this. The voltage of 12.08  read
was less than 2 minutes after stopping. This was
before the voltage had a chance to rise back up. I
don't think I was  anywhere near 100% DOD because I
had no noticeable power drop off under acceleration
and my soc meter never went below 30-35% soc
remaining.
 I'm just trying to learn here?
Jeff
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Roger.
> 
> 

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--- Begin Message ---
John G. Lussmyer wrote: 

> The Cheaper price on the D900M's makes me suspicious
> that they aren't really the full deep cycle battery.

They're exactly the same inside, just be sure you get the light grey
case (deep cycle), not the dark grey case (starting).

Remember, the YT is sold primarily to the higher-end car audio crowd
while the BT targets marine applications.

Course, if you're leery, it's only $5/ea more for the YTs.

Cheers,

Roger.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Mccabe wrote: 

> I agree, I also read this. The voltage of 12.08  read
> was less than 2 minutes after stopping.

In less than 2min after stopping you were able to measure the voltages
of each of 26 batteries (or at least each of 13 buddy-pairs)?  That's
pretty damn quick. ;^>

> This was before the voltage had a chance to rise back up.

The voltage will jump up dramatically immediately as soon as the load is
removed, and gradually rises to its final value over a much longer time.
Your batteries might not have recovered to much more than 12.15-12.2V
each, which is only very slightly over 2.0V/cell.

> I don't think I was  anywhere near 100% DOD because I
> had no noticeable power drop off under acceleration
> and my soc meter never went below 30-35% soc
> remaining.

With AGMs, you often won't notice any drop in power until they go
completely flat.  That is, by the time you notice a pronounced loss of
power, its too late.

If you don't have a pack voltmeter installed it will be especially
difficult to tell if the pack is getting low since you won't see the
voltage sagging as you accelerate.

What is the make/brand of SOC meter you have?  If it is intended for use
on flooded batteries, then it will over-estimate your SOC because AGMs
will hold a little higher voltage than floodeds at a given SOC.

See
<http://www.trojanbattery.com/Tech-Support/BatteryMaintenance/Testing.as
px>, for instance.

If you can get one, an E-Meter/Link10 is a very useful instrument as it
combines a pack voltmeter, ammeter, Ah/Wh counter, and fuel gauge into a
single unit.  It is a proven performer, and if you get one with the
RS232 port, you can log all this data during charge and discharge.

Another promising looking instrumentation option is the PakTrakr, though
I haven't yet got my hands on one to see how it performs.  The advantage
of the PakTrakr is that it can monitor each module's voltage instead of
just that of the total pack.  If it can do as well at the basic Ah or Wh
tracking as the E-Meter/Link10 it could be the new king off the hill.

Victor at MetricMind has a sophisticated pack monitor as well, but I'm
not sure if it is out of beta test yet.

Cheers,

Roger.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Manny -Took your recommendation and hired National to ship the EV next week.  
Thanks for helping out. Just a coincidence, but the name of the chap that 
booked the trip was "Manny" also....!!!Mike> Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 21:07:55 
-0700> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu> Subject: Re: best way 
to transport a newly purchased EV> > I used and do not hesitate in 
recommending:> www.nationalautoshipping.com> toll free phone 1-877-393-3232> 
toll free fax 1-888-415-1113> The driver brought my car from Maryland to 
So.California and gave me> status reports and cell phone pictures from the 
trip.> Oh yeah they pretty much had the cheapest quote too. :)> > Manny> > > On 
7/19/07, Michael Mohlere <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> > If anyone can provide a 
referral to a good, reliable shipper for> > transporting my newly purchase EV 
from> > Roeland Park, KS to Huntsville, AL, I'm all ears...have a similar post 
on> > the MAEEA (sp?) list.> >> > Thx, Mike> >> > ________!
 _________________________________________________________> > 
http://newlivehotmail.com> >> >> > > -- > http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1117> 
http://EVorBust.blogspot.com> 
_________________________________________________________________
PC Magazine’s 2007 editors’ choice for best web mail—award-winning Windows Live 
Hotmail.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HMWL_mini_pcmag_0707

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I am sure it has been said before, but many of the battery questions are answered in the Curtis Battery Book at

http://evbatterymonitoring.com/

John in Sylmar, CA
PV EV

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ElectroAuto  shipped me a 400 watt DCDC with a 144 volt rated input voltage
It is made by 
http://www.ccpowerltd.co.uk/dcdcconvertors.htm

Their web site does not show a 144 volt model but they will apparently do 
custom units. At least they did one for ElectroAuto thet ended up with me. 

I have yet to get the EV Truck running so I can not comment on its durability 
or performance.

John


---- Richard Acuti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> Hmmm....I have the Sevcon 128/12 model yet when I went to their website, all 
> I could find were much lower input voltage models (72v). Did they quit 
> making the 128v models? That would be very uncool. I love mine. I was going 
> to recommend it until I couldn't find it.
> 
> So: If mine died, what is available in that input/output voltage and power 
> range? Just give me some brand names and I'll look them up.
> 
> Rich A.
> 
> 
> Message-ID:
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 20:06:05 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
> From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Tell Me Which DC to DC Converter I Should Use
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
> From: Joseph Lado
> >I have had it. I have been stranded by my auxilary battery. I don't
> >have a DC to DC converter... If I have to drive at night in rain I can
> >only go about 10 miles before the battery craps out. I need a DC to DC
> >converter. I tried to use the IOTA 35. That didn't work. My pack is
> >108 volt pack and somehow that isn't enough for the IOTA35.
> 
> The Iota is really a 120vac input supply. It rectifies this to produce 160 
> volts
> DC. Your 108 volt pack is much less than this -- too low for the Iota to 
> work
> acceptably.
> 
> >Just tell me what I should buy that works with my 18 Trojan 6 volt
> >batteries? What is the best choice?
> 
> "Best" is a judgement call. But if it were me, I'd look for a pair of 48v 
> input,
> 13.5v output DC/DC converters. These are very common, as 48vdc is widely 
> used in
> industry and telephone systems. Use two of them, each powered by half your 
> pack
> (108v/2 = 54v; these converters actually work from 36-72vdc). Two converters
> also provides redundancy; if one fails, the other still provides 12v power.
> 
> --
> "Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> http://im.live.com/messenger/im/home/?source=hmtextlinkjuly07
> 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Jeff Mccabe wrote: 
> 
> > I agree, I also read this. The voltage of 12.08 
> read
> > was less than 2 minutes after stopping.
> 
> In less than 2min after stopping you were able to
> measure the voltages
> of each of 26 batteries (or at least each of 13
> buddy-pairs)?  That's
> pretty damn quick. ;^>

yaa, im good : ), no I only measured  the first five
or six buddy pairs.



> 
> > This was before the voltage had a chance to rise
> back up.
> 
> The voltage will jump up dramatically immediately as
> soon as the load is
> removed, and gradually rises to its final value over
> a much longer time.
> Your batteries might not have recovered to much more
> than 12.15-12.2V
> each, which is only very slightly over 2.0V/cell.
> 
> > I don't think I was  anywhere near 100% DOD
> because I
> > had no noticeable power drop off under
> acceleration
> > and my soc meter never went below 30-35% soc
> > remaining.
> 
> With AGMs, you often won't notice any drop in power
> until they go
> completely flat.  That is, by the time you notice a
> pronounced loss of
> power, its too late.
> 
> If you don't have a pack voltmeter installed it will
> be especially
> difficult to tell if the pack is getting low since
> you won't see the
> voltage sagging as you accelerate.
 
> What is the make/brand of SOC meter you have?  If it
> is intended for use
> on flooded batteries, then it will over-estimate
> your SOC because AGMs
> will hold a little higher voltage than floodeds at a
> given SOC.




Dont knoow off hand, came with the Electro Automotive
kit. 
> See
>
<http://www.trojanbattery.com/Tech-Support/BatteryMaintenance/Testing.as
> px>, for instance.
> 
> If you can get one, an E-Meter/Link10 is a very
> useful instrument as it
> combines a pack voltmeter, ammeter, Ah/Wh counter,
> and fuel gauge into a
> single unit.  It is a proven performer, and if you
> get one with the
> RS232 port, you can log all this data during charge
> and discharge.
> 
> Another promising looking instrumentation option is
> the PakTrakr, though
> I haven't yet got my hands on one to see how it
> performs.  The advantage
> of the PakTrakr is that it can monitor each module's
> voltage instead of
> just that of the total pack.  If it can do as well
> at the basic Ah or Wh
> tracking as the E-Meter/Link10 it could be the new
> king off the hill.


Yaa, seriously thinking about getting this setup,
looks promissing.
Thanks, Jeff



> 
> Victor at MetricMind has a sophisticated pack
> monitor as well, but I'm
> not sure if it is out of beta test yet.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Roger.
> 
> 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Is 240v too much?"

I don't really know, but from looking at different EV conversions, I
think that 240 volts might be too much for an 8'' motor.

On 7/20/07, Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'll be moving my Optima batteries to my sailboat, so I'm going to get
some new batteries for the Fiero.
I'm leaning towards getting the Trojan 24TM 12v batteries, and go with
10-20 of them.  It seems to me the higher voltage is going to reduce
current draw  and be better for range via pukert.   How many volts can
an ADC 8" motor be OK with?   Is 240v too much?
Jack



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 02:35 PM 7/20/2007, Roger Stockton wrote:
John G. Lussmyer wrote:

> The Cheaper price on the D900M's makes me suspicious
> that they aren't really the full deep cycle battery.

They're exactly the same inside, just be sure you get the light grey
case (deep cycle), not the dark grey case (starting).

Aren't those different part numbers?

--
John G. Lussmyer      mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....         
http://www.CasaDelGato.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Mccabe wrote: 

> > > I don't think I was  anywhere near 100% DOD

One last note on this point: Al Godfrey is running 26 Optimas in his
928.  His AC drive is likely a bit more efficient than your DC system,
but his auto transaxle may be a bit lossier than your manual.  A data
point from him was running about 25-30km to 50%DOD.  Your PC1500s have a
bit more capacity at the 1 hour rate than his Optimas, which pushes this
up to about 30-35km to 50% for your pack.  That makes it 60-70km to
100%DOD, and that's 37-43mi.  You've actually gotten 43-45mi, which
suggests your car may be a bit more efficent than Al's overall, but I
don't think you have been all that far from 100%DOD...

Cheers,

Roger.

--- End Message ---

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