EV Digest 7089

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Ni-MH cells and Chevron
        by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) RE: Could higher pack voltage be stepped down for Curtis input?
        by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Remote State of Charge Display?
        by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: What happened to my post to John Wayland????????????????
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  5) Tweety went swimming!!
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  6) RE: Neutral Timing is Better for Commuters
        by "George Swartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) re:few clarifications about LI ion technolgy
        by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: Belleville (or other) washers
        by "George Swartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Timing, Inductance & Bypass, oh my
        by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: Belleville (or other) washers
        by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Belleville (or other) washers
        by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: EV Drag Video on Associate Press website
        by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) RE: Neutral Timing is Better for Commuters
        by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) RE: Is GM Playing Games with the Volt?
        by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: Timing, Inductance & Bypass, oh my
        by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) RE: EV Drag Video on Associate Press website
        by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: Is GM Playing Games with the Volt?
        by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: EV Drag Video on Associate Press website
        by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: Neutral Timing is Better for Commuters
        by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: Neutral Timing is Better for Commuters
        by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) RE: Neutral Timing is Better for Commuters
        by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) Re: Ni-MH cells and Chevron
        by Larry Cronk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message --- While the DeWalt packs are not a bad idea, he's gonna need a lot of packs to get to 40Ah, 17-18. That's a lot of them to charge individually with a DeWalt charger.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Brinkman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 4:31 PM
Subject: RE: Ni-MH cells and Chevron


Hello James Drysdale,

Jeff Shanab has a great point here.  Think about getting some of the
DeWalt 36 volt lithium battery packs on E-bay.  And a charger.  However,
before you take them apart for the ten cells inside, consider using the
pack as a whole.  When you charge the pack with the DeWalt charger, I
think you get each individual cell to the correct state of charge.  The
DeWalt pack has a small lead to each individual cell for monitoring the
charge or discharge, I am not sure.  By charging the packs correctly,
they will perform and last well.  I have seen pictures where the DeWalt
flashlight tool was disassembled and used to mount a battery to a
bicycle frame.  Once several batteries are charged, they are close in
voltage, and others have run two, three or four in parallel on a
bicycle.  If you go to 72 volts, you will be able to use more of your
pack in series, and less in parallel.
The DeWalt 36 volt charger completes the charge in just under one hour.
You can stop for lunch and be charged if you can carry enough chargers.
Contact me off list and I can send you the contact I have who uses the
DeWalt batteries.  He is helpful.  I also received a wiring diagram on
how to connect to the battery.
Where are you from?  Be careful purchasing on E-bay.  I have found many
good sellers, and one that ships slowly, who sells to the US and
Australia.  Check feedback on E-bay.

Alan Brinkman


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 8:13 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: RE: Ni-MH cells and Chevron

40ah for a bicycle? even at only 36V, that seems like an awfully large
pack.

I would think that the closest to lead acid in chargeing and balancing
is actually the lifepo4 cells. The cost is, of course, the issue.

As a test. 4-36V dewalt packs from ebay may be a good way. Take them
apart to get at the main power as the built in controller is probably
too low of amps
That would only be only 9ah by 36V but the reduced weight helps range
and they don't have problem with the amps.
In this application it might be interesting to see if the built in
controllers could work in parallel to provide an all in one soulution.
You could even have two sets of packs and have one set on charge while
the other is in use.


40AH * 36Volts of lead-acid is not really 40ah maybe 30 at low amps.
2hour instead of 20hour rate?

30ah * 36V in LiFePo4 (26650's) would be 11*13 =143 cells, and is 22lbs
raw cell weight.

(Inserted James Drysdale's question here)

G'day all.

First up, if you don't know me here, its because I don't yet have an EV
and don't really have much to add to the discussions that go on here.
Secondly,  I am not a troll, and am building my first EV, an electric
bicycle, and thankyou to those members that gave me assistance.

Some background.....
The battery capacity for my bicycle that I was originally aiming for was
40Ah. I thought Ni-MH would be a good solution as lead-acid would be
very heavy and as it was a relatively small battery, the cost of Ni-MH
cells would be okay.

What I found was that Ni-MH was more expensive that what I expected.
Even when I contacted an electronics wholesaler, on the recommendation
of one of their resellers, using 600 2Ah cells to obtain 36v and 40Ah
would cost $AU1800 ($US1540) That is for cells only.

There was another bicycle battery thread here which I responded too, I
think I gave different costings then, but this is what I have worked out
with my most recent data.

I have been researching more.
Chevron own the rights to Ni-MH technology?
Or just a certain method of manufacturing NiMH cells?

Apparently they sued Panasonic for $30 million over an EV-95 line of
Ni-MH cells....
http://www.ev1.org/chevron.htm

So is it true that a large entity owns the patents for Ni-MH technology,
and as this entity has more to do with oil, "restricts" the availability
of Ni-MH cells?

FROM WEBSITE
http://www.ev1.org/chevron.htm
"Chevron's unit that controls the patents, *cobasys, *refuses to sell
their version of the battery unless, they say, they get "a large OEM
order". Apparently, they also refuse to let anyone else sell it, either"

Is this why lead-acid is still the only viable technology? Even for a
crappy bicycle?
Is there some Chinese or Taiwanese manufacturer that builds Ni-MH cells
free of restraint from Chevron?
I did find a couple of companies supplying cells, my bookmarks were
deleted with a we browser update, so I don't have their addresses :-(
But their prices, although a little lower, were not enough to justify an
international order, particularly once shipping was added.

Is Nickel Metal Hydride cell technology restricted world-wide by a
company that has its stakes in oil????

Cheers,
James Drysdale.


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For a transformer to work one of two things must happen - There has to
be a change in the voltage presented to the secondary windings.  You can
accomplish this by moving the secondary in relation to the primary or
vary the voltage at the primary.  When the voltage changes the field the
primary presents will start to collapse or increase.  The movement of
the field intersects the secondary inducing voltage into the secondary.
Without this field intersection the secondary will see no voltage
induced.  Straight DC will not go across a transformer except for the
brief moment in time when the primary field is being created.  Once the
DC stabilizes in the primary no voltage will induce over to the
secondary. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Freidberg
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 14:50
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Could higher pack voltage be stepped down for Curtis input?

--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> The Curtis 1231 is rated for a *nominal* 144v pack maximum. You really

> don't want to run it with a nominal pack voltage above this. The parts

> inside are rated at 200v peak. A 144v pack freshly off a 2.5v/cell 
> charge will be at 180v, and there will be voltage spikes that go above

> this.

Would it be possible to connect the hypothetical 204v pack to a device
like a step-down transformer, and then connect the output side of that
to the rest of the drive circuit? The transformer would reduce 204v pack
voltage to 144v or less for Curtis COntroller. 


> So, I'd look for ways to stay with twelve 12v batteries, but increase 
> the amphours of each one to whatever weight you feel you can carry. 
> For example, my LeCar EV (about the same size as your
> Metro) has twelve 12v 100ah AGMs (about 750 lbs; same as 17 Optimas). 
> Each battery is 13" x 6.6" x 9". This has worked out fine with my 
> Curtis
> 1231 controller.

I'm all for staying with 12 large 12v batts as long as my stinky batt
woes can be resolved. 


Mark




 
________________________________________________________________________
____________
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect.  Join Yahoo!'s user
panel and lay it on us.
http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That was one of the features I was thinking about for my EvDashPc!

I was working on a design for a remote control for an airbag system and
was looking into ZigBee on the 915Mhz range. (868mhz in europe)
There is always a trade off of range vs data rate and most sites
concentrate on explaining the 2.4 ghz range which is only 10 to 100
meters. (the lower freq have longer range for the power but less data rate.)
At the lower frequencies, you can get a mile of range. (for when
charging at the mall or work) Some car alarms already send to the fob on
your key ring, so I know it is do-able.

http://www.sensorsmag.com/articles/0603/14/main.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZigBee


ZigBee is low power,low range, low cost, small footprint and low
overhead. So it works well with the micro in the keyfob.

These guys get the range vs freq and power issue, you can see they are
using 1200m with the 900mhz band for their example.

http://www.edn.com/article/CA6442439.html

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Sorry, didn't mean that as yelling at you. HTML has been such a big deal on this list lately. Soo many missed emails...

Ken



-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 8:08 pm
Subject: Re: What happened to my post to John Wayland????????????????



In a message dated 7/30/2007 5:54:36 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Yes, it is on, but, you need to turn your HTML OFF!!!

___________________________

Yes, I just now figured out how to do that..........I build speed not
computers I can barely turn this thing on and off. OFF????? don't yell
I'm
not hard of hearing just computer stupid.



Jim L................Old retired racer...................maybe I should come
out of retirement.......hhmmmmmmm




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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tweety went swimming!

You may have noticed, in the weather news, that Texas has been really hammered with rain. Earlier this month we have had more than our share of water!

Anyway, during one of those rainy days, I was out, in Tweety, running errands during lunch. On the way back to work, the bottom dropped out of the clouds and it was poring so hard the streets were completely covered in water. I was driving down the middle of the road which was the only way I could tell where I was. I could barely see the yellow stripe under the water. The rest of the road was a raging river that went all the way across business parking lots. When I got back to work, I noticed that raging river was flowing across the dip at the entrance of the parking lot entrance. I thought I can’t cross that! But there were cars behind me waiting for me to go. So I went for it. The water was much deeper than I thought! A wall of water gushed over the top of the car and I couldn’t see anything! I knew Tweety’s motor was completely under water at that point. Water was flowing in around the bottom of the door, but, it drove along as if nothing unusual was going on. It drove back up and out of the “river”. I parked it and ran inside. I came back out after the rain slacked off and plugged it in. It was still raining hard after work, but, not flooding as bad. Tweety drove home as if nothing had happened. The next day, I crawled under and looked at the motor. I lifted a connector boot and water pored out. All four connector boots were full of water, even the two on top. No water in the brush guard. I guess the fan sucked it out as I drove.

Everything still seems to be ok, but I was wondering if there is anything that should be done for a motor that has been submerged – while driving.

Ken

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/983

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=0

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's probably been covered before, but interpoles in a dc motor are the 
automatic electric way to change brush timing to reduce arcing.  The field 
magnetic strength is shifted in proportion to armature current.






On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 05:39:08 -0700 (PDT), Steven Ciciora wrote
> Yes, you can, and it's even easier if you do it in
> software (using IGBTs instead of brushes and
> commutators).  Oops, I hope I'm not fanning the AC/DC
> debate :-)
> 
> > > Dumb question time:
> > > Can you rig an advance mechanism that would
> > retard/advance the brushes in relation to RPM and/or
> > volts/amps?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > David C. Wilker Jr.
> > > USAF (RET)
> > 
> >
> 
> 
_____________________________________________________________________________
_______
> Got a little couch potato? 
> Check out fun summer activities for kids.
> http://search.yahoo.com/search?
fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Does li ion technology really deliver its promises ?
        
Yes and no, depends on the company
        


>I have chosen li-ions for my conversion
>I took a look at the A123 , Thundersky , Valence , they have but very
>cleverly hidden the prices and availability information from the sites

A123 seems to have gone OEM, But man do they have the best proven cell.
They have an RC division to get a hold of small quantities and you can always 
buy dewalt packs and take them apart.
A few here on the list have a relationship with them. They won't even return my 
emails or phone calls.

Someone here is testing PHET and I have talked with Aleees. Aleees seems very 
nice, will send any qty to anyone, last I talked to them

>What kind of costs should i keep in mind to assemble a 330v+ pack ?
The other dimension of a pack is it's Ah's

330V in LiFePo4(the safe,powerfull chemistry with the long cycle life) is about 
104 cells in series
if useing A123's at only 2.3ah each you'd need 22 to get just over 50ah. This 
creates a 2288 cell pack of 330V*50.6 or about a 17kWH pack
which is good for about 50-60 miles range in a small sedan. The raw cell weight 
is only 353lbs(160kg) but the interconnectiong and balancing of that many cells 
is not trivial.



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Belleville washers work great.  You can calibrate the compression force.  
The force is more even over a greater distance than a split lock.  You can 
stack the belleville's for either more force or more travel distance, or 
both.  Belleville's don't wreck the mating surfaces like split locks.  I 
like belleville's for aluminum bus bar where cold flow is a possibility.  I 
can't think of any disadvantages.





On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 05:05:28 -0700 (PDT), Frank John wrote
> I've been thinking about using Belleville washers at the standard 
> connection points and got wondering about why Belleville - why not a 
> standard lock washer.  Isn't the basic principle the same with any 
> type of locking washer: exploit the elasticity of steel to maintain 
> constant pressure on a bolt?  Any comments or opinions (talk about a 
> loaded question!!)  ?   :)
> 
> TIA
> 
> 
_____________________________________________________________________________
_______
> Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. 
> http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jeff etc,

I measured the overall motor inductance amr + field with my B&K LCR meter. I found that adding an additional 150uH doubled my acceleration rate from a dead stop *independent* of the timing test. I always use a bypass (and engage start) contactor that shorts the control *and* the chokes when fully depressed so the batteries are connected *directly* to the motor for best efficiency. The trick is to set the fully mashed position at the nominal speed your going, for me it's 60mph in 3rd gear at 96V. Yes field weakening is a thought but would it be more efficient than just shifting into 4th gear?

The best thing to do is *test* your acceleration and operating RPM's performance at neutral and then at an advanced timing setting. That way you'll know for sure (like me).

In general it appears from testing and general consensus for lowly commuters operating around 96V or below that neutral is best overall since RPM's aren't that high <4k rpm's. When above 96 , certainly at 144V, the voltage *and* rpm range is higher making advanced timing required for performance and flashover.

Cheers,
Mark

Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 05:37:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Additional Motor Inductance/better acceleration
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


Hi Mark,

You run a by-pass?  Not many do, that I am aware of.
This is with the MTC motor, right?

Anyway, regarding additional motor inductance.  Yea,
sometimes these high speed motors would be called
rotating short circuits by those involved in control.
Increased PWM frequency helps.  Adding inductance to
the motor circuit with chokes, inductors or reactors
or whatever you call them is a fix when you're stuck
with existing components.  From the get-go, it would
have been better to put the additional steel and
copper (used in the choke) into the motor.  A bigger,
higher inductance motor motor makes more sense than
external inductance.  But working with what you have,
nice way to raise the average current when the peak
current is limiting.

You know, the MTC motor was designed with a little
heavier field just to get the inductance up to where
it's at.  This makes it a good candidate for field
weakening.  Once you're in by-pass, you can switch in
a field diverter resistor and increase motor speed.
You'd want to use some smarts so that the control
never attempts to chop with the field weakened.  A 19
milliOhm diverter resistor is good for the MTC.  Would
give you another 500 RPM or so.

Also, how did you get the inductance of the motor?
You know that value is current dependent.  Probably
doesn't make a big difference in what you're doing.
Which BTW, I love to see.  Keep playing and let us
know results.

Jeff


--- Mark Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi,

Since I have a 400A 2kHz ye-ol Curtis that battery
amps are limited (noticed 50A starting). I decided to try an additional choke
in series with the motor but inside the bypass contactor loop.  Since
T=L/R with the motor inductance at 150uh and 58 milli-ohms, the time
constant to pulse by pulse current limit is quick thus limiting the duty cycle
on start to 2.5ms.  By doubling the inductance or adding a 150uH choke, the
start pulse width would then be limited to 5ms.  So I took a uWave oven
transformer, angle ground off the I bar on the E core and removed the coild
and magnetic shunt.  I then put 6 turns of #2 welding wire on and MIG
welded the I back on the E for a 72uH choke measured. I then started the car
again from a dead stop and noticed 80A instead of 50 battery amps and it
moved quicker into operating range.  I'll get another dead uWave and
add another choke for a total of 150uH.  So if you have acceleration
problems and you're duty cycle limiting on start, try a choke or 2.

Best Regards,
Mark





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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- A normal lock washer is not use for pressure. It is simply used to dig into the nut to keep it from loosening. A belleville washer IS used to create pressure on the assembly. Does it have enough pressure to help maintain the connection? I gues it wouldn't hurt.
Mark



----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 8:05 AM
Subject: Belleville (or other) washers


I've been thinking about using Belleville washers at the standard connection points and got wondering about why Belleville - why not a standard lock washer. Isn't the basic principle the same with any type of locking washer: exploit the elasticity of steel to maintain constant pressure on a bolt? Any comments or opinions (talk about a loaded question!!) ? :)

TIA





____________________________________________________________________________________
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Frank,

I may have use Belleville washers if you can get them in the correct torque 
rate and if the local fastener company had them in high temper stainless 
steel.  Did not what to use standard Gal-Chrome color ones, the same plating 
that the grade 8 bolts have.  This type of plating will corrode faster than 
the normal plated fastener.

The standard torque rate for Belleville are the same as for the bolt size 
you are using.  A 5/16 standard bolt is about 15 ft lbs, a 3/8 standard bolt 
is about 35 ft lbs, which is way too much force on a battery stud.  If you 
less torque on a Belleville washer is rated for, than it may be less 
effected than a high temper lock washer.

Stainless steel is a good corrosion resistance, but do use stainless steel 
between a battery post and the cable connection, only on the nut side.

I use a torque wrench anyway in installing the battery connectors.  A 
Belleville washer has a set amount of torque in them.  We use them in 
bolting high power electrical buss bars together.  The technician turns a 
1/2 double head bolt with a Belleville washer until the top head shears off, 
which is about 50 ft lbs of force.  It takes a bit of force to flatten them 
down.  So I did not like to use them on battery studs, because I had pull 
out studs only at 75 in lbs which is about the same a 6+ ft lbs.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Frank John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:05 AM
Subject: Belleville (or other) washers


> I've been thinking about using Belleville washers at the standard 
> connection points and got wondering about why Belleville - why not a 
> standard lock washer.  Isn't the basic principle the same with any type of 
> locking washer: exploit the elasticity of steel to maintain constant 
> pressure on a bolt?  Any comments or opinions (talk about a loaded 
> question!!)  ?   :)
>
> TIA
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
> http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
>
> 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to Bill and All,

Thanks for the shortcuts. I tried the first way of getting to the videos you suggested, and though icons of videos popped up, clicking on 'play' did nothing, nor did 'add to play list'. All that continued to happen was an incessant replay after replay of the day's top world news stories. I was unable to play the EV videos until you gave the below direct links....thanks.

It is absolutely astounding to me, how after such a lame, poorly written piece by Aaron Clark, the AP video guys did a 180 turn-around and came up with two of the best hi pro EV type videos I've seen! Now 'this', is what I had hoped the story would have imparted. Instead of the article's negative 'EVs still don't cut it mode', the videos exude speed and power and show how we are achieving great results at the track. Instead of a goofy comparison of my street legal EV to a top fuel funny car/rail dragster (it still makes me scratch my head how anyone could make such a ludicris comparison), the video shows it leaving a high powered American muscle car in its wake. Instead of going on and on about top fuel this and nitromethane that, they show Bill in his animated best explaining the 'bottomless pit of energy' that the current version of lithium batteries can supply. The video producer 'got it', big time'...Aaron Clark, most certainly, did not.

For those as put off by the story as I, my wife, Tim Brehm, Marko Mongillo, and just about everyone else I've talked to was, other than Bill :-), please take Bill's direct links and go put a huge EV grin on your face today!

See Ya.....John Wayland

Bill Dube wrote:

Here is the shortcut link to the first video
http://video.ap.org/v/default.aspx?g=e1908c3c-e3b5-4719-9148-ed622858ce70

Here is the link to the video of Wayland explaining the electric drive train:

http://video.ap.org/v/default.aspx?g=f0556229-afc6-44d7-b10c-bf0890bcb1c7


Bill Dube'


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can you rig an advance mechanism that would retard/advance the brushes in 
relation to RPM and/or volts/amps?


The more advanced brushless DC motor controllers (UQM, for example) do this 
automagically - it's only software. I know my brushless DC controllers do not 
(Solectria BRLS-240 + BRLS-16) but when timing the motors (you still have an 
adjustable hall-effect sensor), you can have the timing pretty much anywhere 
and there's no arcing. But that's silicon instead of carbon for my commutator. 
:-)

Mechanically it is possible, you need to have guides that allow you to attach 
some kind of servo to move the brushes - like the contact breaker plate in an 
old mechanical distributor.

-Dale

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Funny you should mention this about GM and china.

 When I was a kid, like in 7th grade, I lived in Amman Jordan.  In that
country, the taxis are mercedes, the king drove around in Volvo
motorcades and the bedowin had a nissan pickup. The funny part was the
most famous actor drove a Ford POS (even hollywood called the boxy 70's
erra fords POS) Kids would polish the hubcaps as it drove slowly thru
the streets.

In that day the Dinar was equal to 3.3 Dollars, the tarrif was 100% for
importing a Ford as Ford had a large Jewish stock ownership and so for
political reasons things like pepsi, fritos, and fords were really
expensive. Never saw a GM product in that country. They would take the
price and change the word from dollars to dinar. so that trippled the
price, then they apply the import terrif and a $5000 ford was worth $30K
(ok, this was a few years ago!)

What has this got to do with EV's? Not much. But I was wondering. We
have heard from people in Austrailia,Britain,India Is there anyone in
the middle east that can comment on the growth or lack of growth of EV's
there?

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark,

See inserted comments........

--- Mark Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi Jeff etc,
> 
> I measured the overall motor inductance amr + field
> with my B&K LCR meter.  
> I found that adding an additional 150uH doubled my
> acceleration rate from a 
> dead stop *independent* of the timing test.  I
> always use a bypass (and 
> engage start) contactor that shorts the control
> *and* the chokes when fully 
> depressed so the batteries are connected *directly*
> to the motor for best 
> efficiency.  The trick is to set the fully mashed
> position at the nominal 
> speed your going, for me it's 60mph in 3rd gear at
> 96V.  Yes field weakening 
> is a thought but would it be more efficient than
> just shifting into 4th 
> gear?

It might be.  Sounds like you're an experiment type of
guy.  Install field weakening contactor and resistor
with an independent control switch.  Record battery
amps and speed in 3rd with field weakening and compare
to 4th without.  

> 
> The best thing to do is *test* your acceleration and
> operating RPM's 
> performance at neutral and then at an advanced
> timing setting.  That way 
> you'll know for sure (like me).
> 
> In general it appears from testing and general
> consensus for lowly commuters 
> operating around 96V or below that neutral is best
> overall since RPM's 
> aren't that high <4k rpm's.

Well your motor started with 4.5 degree advance.  So
it was never on neutral, was it?

The MTC motor was designed for 96 volts.  The 4.5
degree shift was put there to get acceptable
commutation at 96 volts.  Commutation at neutral
wasn't all that great.

Regards,

Jeff


      
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Hmmmmm..... I'm still not quite sure how Bill feels about A123 battery 
performance...  ;-)

I really like John's sign-language rendition of series-parallel too!!

--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of John Wayland
> Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 9:56 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: EV Drag Video on Associate Press website
> 
> Hello to Bill and All,
> 
> Thanks for the shortcuts. I tried the first way of getting to the videos
> 
> you suggested, and though icons of videos popped up, clicking on 'play'
> did nothing, nor did 'add to play list'. All that continued to happen
> was an incessant replay after replay of the day's top world news
> stories. I was unable to play the EV videos until you gave the below
> direct links....thanks.
> 
> It is absolutely astounding to me, how after such a lame, poorly written
> 
> piece by Aaron Clark, the AP video guys did a 180 turn-around and came
> up with two of the best hi pro EV type videos I've seen! Now 'this', is
> what I had hoped the story would have imparted. Instead of the article's
> 
> negative 'EVs still don't cut it mode', the videos exude speed and power
> 
> and show how we are achieving great results at the track. Instead of a
> goofy comparison of my street legal EV to a top fuel funny car/rail
> dragster (it still makes me scratch my head how anyone could make such a
> 
> ludicris comparison), the video shows it leaving a high powered American
> 
> muscle car in its wake. Instead of going on and on about top fuel this
> and nitromethane that, they show Bill in his animated best explaining
> the 'bottomless pit of energy' that the current version of lithium
> batteries can supply. The video producer 'got it', big time'...Aaron
> Clark, most certainly, did not.
> 
> For those as put off by the story as I, my wife, Tim Brehm, Marko
> Mongillo, and just about everyone else I've talked to was, other than
> Bill :-), please take Bill's direct links and go put a huge EV grin on
> your face today!
> 
> See Ya.....John Wayland
> 
> Bill Dube wrote:
> 
>> Here is the shortcut link to the first video
>>
http://video.ap.org/v/default.aspx?g=e1908c3c-e3b5-4719-9148-ed622858ce70
>>
>> Here is the link to the video of Wayland explaining the electric drive
> 
>> train:
>>
>>
http://video.ap.org/v/default.aspx?g=f0556229-afc6-44d7-b10c-bf0890bcb1c7
>>
>>
>> Bill Dube'
>>

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Lots of points here.. I'll keep my comments short :)

- As already mentioned, the UAW is not an issue. Toyota and VW both
have larger and more onerous worker compensation burdens and make
wheelbarrows full of cash.

- The issue is two pronged. The US is practicing unfettered
capitalism.. the rest of the ENTIRE PLANET is not. Except for
developing nations, every country out there (yes even China, although
it is terribly biased) has some sort of support structure to buoy up
the people's ability to get good paying jobs and to manufacture goods
at a profit. Japan has low cost loans, Asymmetrical Tariffs, and a
Non-profit healthcare system, as well as a retirement benefit system.
And so on.

If the flippin administration REALLY wants GM and etc to succeed, and
to be technology leaders (which they are not, at this point) then it
would force them through special incentives, low cost loans and so on,
all conditional on producing EVs, and PHEVs. GM shouldn't have to do
basic research into other technologies for propulsion though.. that is
a University thing, and  the patents should be shared at some nominal
fee.

One more thing that could be done is heavy investment into battery
technology, and to produce licensable patents for that as well.

All of this is so darn simple in concept.. the only thing that mucks
it up is ideologues.

--T

PS: As far as EVs in other countries.. most of the forces at work here
are at work across the world. Chevron's suit against Toyota/Panasonic,
for example. Ultimately, we need to trump the damn oil companies to
get this mainstream. People say "Hey if GM could make money from a car
that ran on pig crap they would sell it" Well sure, except you
forget.. these guys in the oil companies play golf with the guys in
the car companies. Even given that, though,  It's happening from the
Grassroots.. lets hope it sticks!!

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--- John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> For those as put off by the story as I, my wife, Tim
> Brehm, Marko 
> Mongillo, and just about everyone else I've talked
> to was, other than 
> Bill :-), please take Bill's direct links and go put
> a huge EV grin on 
> your face today!
> 
> See Ya.....John Wayland

Hey John

Kind of reminds me of Alice in Wonderland!  I think
they were all just singing "we're painting the roses
red" as it beats the queen screaming "Off with their
heads" LMAO! 8^P
Sorry couldn't resist 8^)
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
AKA the imperial guard of the Queen of hearts 8^)
You heard the queen, start singing! 8^o
We painted the roses red...


       
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Couldn't you do it just like the old distributer spark advance system?
Physically rotate the device in relation to its normally operating position.
Old distributors used the vacuum from the engine to do it.

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 7:02 am, Dale Ulan wrote:
Can you rig an advance mechanism that would retard/advance the brushes in relation to RPM and/or volts/amps?


The more advanced brushless DC motor controllers (UQM, for example) do this automagically - it's only software. I know my brushless DC controllers do not (Solectria BRLS-240 + BRLS-16) but when timing the motors (you still have an adjustable hall-effect sensor), you can have the timing pretty much anywhere and there's no arcing. But that's silicon instead of carbon for my commutator. :-)

Mechanically it is possible, you need to have guides that allow you to attach some kind of servo to move the brushes - like the contact breaker plate in an old mechanical distributor.

-Dale

www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming and the melting poles.

www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.

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On 7/31/07, GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Couldn't you do it just like the old distributer spark advance system?
> Physically rotate the device in relation to its normally operating
> position.
> Old distributors used the vacuum from the engine to do it.

Some also had a centrifugal weight system for the timing advance

Or a lever on the steering column -- I was driving a 1925 dodge this
weekend that had that.

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--- Dale Ulan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> The more advanced brushless DC motor controllers
> (UQM, for example) do this automagically - it's only
> software. I know my brushless DC controllers do not
> (Solectria BRLS-240 + BRLS-16) but when timing the
> motors (you still have an adjustable hall-effect
> sensor), you can have the timing pretty much
> anywhere and there's no arcing. But that's silicon
> instead of carbon for my commutator. :-)
> 
> Mechanically it is possible, you need to have guides
> that allow you to attach some kind of servo to move
> the brushes - like the contact breaker plate in an
> old mechanical distributor.

Hey Dale, all

I haven't much insight into the UQM motors or the
like, but from what I've heard I could build 2
complete racers for the cost of a single motor 8^o
With that said I hope people don't mind if I continue
to tinker with these old dinosaurs in hopes that I can
help those with sub-standard incomes and motors 8^)

George posted about interpoled motors and in fact FT
brought me down a couple (slightly used) Kostov 9"ers
that are still down at the shop.  I discovered that an
ADC8 armature fits almost directly into them 8^)  By
mod'ing in some ADC brushes and holders I believe a
much beefier and tougher motor could result.
Otmar EVen teased me that he'd have to bring out his
old regen controller (if he could find it) if I got
around to making such a critter when I showed him 8^)

I guess it's my hope that I'll get to have a few more
years before the silicon life forms take over the
carbon life forms 8^P

Looking back at what I posted in my very first post,
that I felt I could help the DC guys, I feel that many
goals have been met at least in some form 8^)  On the
other hand I can't believe over two years has gone by
with so much more still to explore.

FWIW I've already gone through 8 AC lift motors for
Winco Foods and just got a call from Johns work that
someone was needing a Crown AC motor gone through
(have no idea why yet)  Being these aren't that old I
personally don't see the longevity yet of these
smaller type AC units.  I am however (as an old DC
motor dog) hoping to learn some new tricks 8^)

Got to run
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
The old record player type motor guy 8^P






       
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