EV Digest 7094
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Electric car vies for speed record (500 kph)
by "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Tweety went swimming!!
by "joe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Tweety went swimming!!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) John Wayland in Wall Street Journal
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Neutral Timing is Better for Commuters
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Electric Yaris
by Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Neutral Timing is Better for Commuters
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Could higher pack voltage be stepped down for Curtis input?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Neutral Timing is Better for Commuters
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Insurance
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: Electric car vies for speed record (500 kph)
by Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Could higher pack voltage be stepped down for Curtis input?
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: John Wayland in Wall Street Journal
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Buddy Pair Wiring
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Last call for 2007 NEDRA 10th Anniversary Nationals Sponsorships
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Could higher pack voltage be stepped down for Curtis input?
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Last call for 2007 NEDRA 10th Anniversary Nationals Sponsorships
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Electric car vies for speed record (500 kph)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) RE: Bridgestone Ecopia EP-03 Tires - tire width vs RR
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: CVT results update
by Greg Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: John Wayland in Wall Street Journal
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) RE: Bridgestone Ecopia EP-03 Tires - tire width vs RR
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: CVT results update
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
24) Re: John Wayland in Wall Street Journal
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
A fuel cell is NOT an engine, it is merely a type of battery; the only
difference is that it generates it's own power rather than just storing it.
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: Electric car vies for speed record (500 kph)
In a message dated 7/31/2007 11:50:30 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
________________________________________________________________
Why do you say it is NOT an electric vehicle? I don't see a gas engine
of any type on there. A fuel cell generates ELECTRICITY and the primary
drive mechanism is an ELECTRIC Motor. Just because the fuel is hydrogen
doesn't mean it is not electric. They are just making it aboard instead
of charging it externally.
______________________________________________________________
What if the car had a hydrogen fueled piston engine driving an AC
generator
hooked to an AC motor, what would it be then???
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL
at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would still replace the bearings if you're going to take it apart at all -
bearings dont cost much, and if the got some moisture in them, they would
fail sooner reather than later, and give you motor issues. Jim, you live
over there in dry country, so you wouldn't see much of this, but we see
flooded AC pump motors all the time - I have one sitting in my yard right
now that I will pressure wash out, then replace the bearings and check the
windings for the customer before I am satisfied that it is alright to run!
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: Tweety went swimming!!
Hey Ken
This kind of reminded me of some of FT's stories when
he was boat racing and would submerge the motors to
cool them off 8^) Personally I think you're racing
those gassers to much if you're resorting to FT's old
motor cooling tricks, LMAO!
Here's my take on this type of issue. First off, I
use a soap and water parts washer (a lot easier on
enviroment and me 8^) but I also bake the parts out in
my industrial oven to quickly remove all the water.
Your bearings are (I'm sure) sealed and doubt much
water got into them as you tried to teach tweety to
swim. The moisture remaining in the motor is another
concern though! Rust will form and if it forms around
and behind your poles and fields it can cause
insulation to break down as the rust acts as an
abrasive as EVen minor vibrations and bouncing occur.
I know it's easier for me to bust it down and dry it
out but this is in fact what I'd do. If allowed to
remain and fester it could cause you problem years
from now. This is in fact one of the areas I'm trying
to beef up (coatings) so that the motors don't suffer
as much from wet weather and having to drive in it.
If you don't or can't pull the motor try and keep an
eye out for rust and pull it if you start to see it
developing.
Anyway Tweeties fly, so stop trying to teach it how to
swim, either that or call FT up and get some boating
tips 8^P From what I've seen in the news about what
you guys are getting down there, this might be a
needed idea if the rain doesn't stop pounding you
there soon!
Just to recap, if this were my motor, I'd pull it and
pull the armature / DE plate assy out and blow the
motor out and make sure it as dry as you can get it.
If this is not an option please feel free to grab some
pics as time goes by and I'll offer an eye for you so
that you don't run into a really bad scenario.
Hopefully the motors heat helped to dry it out well
enough to prevent the moisture from remaining, heck
maybe, just maybe you got a free motor cleaning out of
it 8^o
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who
knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 11:01 pm
Subject: Re: Tweety went swimming!!
Snip, Snip...
Being one who enjoys reading of Tweetys / Daffys
adventures I know that this vehicle has loving and
pride filled owners and it would suck for it to fade
from it's glory (even cosmetically).
As members of a small and growing community of misfits
trying to change the world I see it as important to
represent and fly our colors to the best of our
abilities. I think EVeryone here has an anti-EV story
or two so we do need to be at our best all the time
IMO. Bad press or impressions for one are sometimes
applied to all.
Then again maybe I'm anal compulsive 8^P
Snip, Snip...
Anyway being Tweety's still a young bird I would like
to see it live a long and fruitful life of adventures
8^)
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
<<<
Hey Jim, That is something you don't even have to worry about! "Fading
from glory" is simply not an option - not going to happen. Tweety is
going to be around for a very, very.... very long time!
Eventually, when financial conditions are restored, Tweety's side kick
will come to life. That, of course will be Sylvester - a WarP-11'nd
Fiero. Then Tweety won't have to terrorize the streets all by himself!
Ken
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check out today's Wall Street Journal. It looks like it made the
front page.
They even drew a "stipled effect" portrait of John. That makes it an
official WJ article. Great mug shot!
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118593442187584293.html
Great story John. This one's a keeper.
Chip
NEDRA
http://www.nedra.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was thinking if i had an adjustable rigging that is spring returned
and advanced with a cable, I could try a "real McCoy" set up.
An adjustable set of counterweights spin relative to the motor rpm and
pull on a plate containing a bearing with the cable mounted on it.
It might also make an interesting hood ornament if we have that contest
again.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For normal dsl users it should not be a problem- I am going to
optimize it soon, If you go to the page a few seconds and wait, then
push play it should be fine- it's quicktime,,,
On Aug 1, 2007, at 4:23 AM, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
Hi Mark
regarding the video on your website, it takes several minutes
before it is done and then it doesn't start on its own. you have to
click the image to get it going. many may well mistake that for not
working so perhaps you can put it on youtube or google video.
(google has slightly higher resolution if you have the material still)
Dan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another idea I had on the "why bother" list is an inside out series dc
motor.
What if you could put the fields on the center rotating piece and the
com bars around the inside of the case. the brushes no go on a plate
like the old chevy distributers, Racers could change the springs and
counter weighs as needed and the ability to put snubbers or caps across
the comm segements to reduce arcing becomes feasable. The down side is
you would need slip rings to get the power to the plate. :-(
But maybe there is an interesting compromise
What if the ABR(adjustable brush rigging had a pair of pins(cam
rollers) sticking thru slots in the end bell of a motor with the
extended shaft . Attached to end bell is a metal cup that is spring
returned and has slots in it the cam roller pins ride in. Attacthe to
the shaft is a fairly big permanent magnet. As it spins faster, it pulls
harder on the can which moves the ABR plate. kinda like a really big
spedometer arrangement.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
_____________________________________
| | _|_
__|__ + | / \ armature
___ 36v / S1 \___/
| - | _________ | series
|____/_____|____________|_____ | |_ motor
S2 | B+| _|_ | _|
| | D1 /_\ | _| field
__|__ + | |___|_____|
___ 144v | |_| |M-
| - | -||_ Q1 |
| | | | |
|____________|_____| | Controller
B-|_________|
Close either S1 or S2 to be using 14-cell mode or 17-cell mode,
respectively.
Start off in 14-cell mode, then switch to 17-cell mode when up to speed.
Controller never sees more the 144V across it. Charge the two battery
strings separately.
This should work. S1 and S2 obviously can't both be closed at once! Both
strings of batteries should have fuses just in case.
You would also have to be sure to turn the controller fully off, then
switch pack voltages, then resume controller operation. Switching S1 or
S2 while the controller is operating would do nasty things.
You also don't want to allow S2 to be closed if it would put the
controller in current limit. With the extra batteries, the controller
can't limit motor current. The 36v pack would force current to keep
flowing in the freewheel diodes (D1) even with the MOSFETs (Q1) totally off.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
WE got vacuum. We could rig an old throttle boy to a fake intake
manifold and use the old vacuum dashpot. I was thinking of that but I
hate the fact that my vacumm pump comes on as much as it does. It is noisey
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>The only glitch would be if my car is totalled. In that case, the
>insurance company generally KEEPS THE CAR, and much paperwork is involved
>to recover damages equal to the car's actual value.
Or, you can buy the wreck back from them (I think they wanted $200 when my '91
Cabriolet was totaled) and keep anything valuable. If you plan on building
another, similar, EV and the EV parts weren't damaged in the accident, it could
be a good option.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
it's not an engine but it is a generator of electricity from hydrogen
fuel. if it was combined with a hydrogen generator in a closed system so
you could 'charge' it with electricity then the lines becomes blurred
and it might reasonably be called an EV but as it is it's a hydrogen
powered car. it's obviously not an EV.
the EV is so we can run a car on electricity, from solar, from nuclear,
from waterfalls, from windpower etc etc. you can in principle generate
hydrogen from electricity and feed it with that but by the same token
you could generate gasoline from electricity and feed that to a normal
ICE car. that wouldn't make that an EV either.
it's not an EV. deal with it
Dan
joe wrote:
A fuel cell is NOT an engine, it is merely a type of battery; the only
difference is that it generates it's own power rather than just
storing it.
Joseph H. Strubhar
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: Electric car vies for speed record (500 kph)
In a message dated 7/31/2007 11:50:30 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
________________________________________________________________
Why do you say it is NOT an electric vehicle? I don't see a gas engine
of any type on there. A fuel cell generates ELECTRICITY and the
primary
drive mechanism is an ELECTRIC Motor. Just because the fuel is
hydrogen
doesn't mean it is not electric. They are just making it aboard
instead
of charging it externally.
______________________________________________________________
What if the car had a hydrogen fueled piston engine driving an AC
generator
hooked to an AC motor, what would it be then???
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the
all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>S1 and S2 obviously can't both be closed at once! Both strings of
batteries should have fuses just in case.
Yes, perhaps a SPDT contactor, either separate from the main contactor
or with a neutral "off" position.
>Switching S1 or S2 while the controller is operating would do nasty
things.
An extra freewheel diode across the motor is probably a good idea. When
in 17-battery mode, there's still current flowing, even when the
controller is off. So an extra diode across the motor would allow S2 to
be opened without arcing.
Bill Dennis
_____________________________________
| | _|_
__|__ + | / \ armature
___ 36v / S1 \___/
| - | _________ | series
|____/_____|____________|_____ | |_ motor
S2 | B+| _|_ | _|
| | D1 /_\ | _| field
__|__ + | |___|_____|
___ 144v | |_| |M-
| - | -||_ Q1 |
| | | | |
|____________|_____| | Controller
B-|_________|
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey all
I'll deffinantly have to stop and grab a copy so I can
frame it for the office wall 8^) Although I'm not
sure whether I should high-light "electric forklift
motor" or not LMAO. Electric forklift motor "my ass"
8^( I want to see the forklift that sports a 34"
Dutchman racing shaft, LMAO 8^)
Guess I better start showing up at the EVents more 8^P
At least the motor did make the video! (EVen if it was
all burnt and crispy looking)(and John has a look that
says, I told the loser to do it right last time) 8^o
I also thought Wayland was like 55 or 60 years old 8^P
He's always been a father figuer to me anyway, LMAO!
It may be the Wall Street Journal but this puppy is
only getting a small corner section in the office 8^o
All jesting aside congrats for some awesome EV press,
and I just can't wait to start fielding calls and
emails from folks wanting to know where they too can
find Siamese forklift motors 8^)
Had fun 8^)
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!
http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When using paralleled buddy pairs, should there be separate cables
attached to each cell terminal, or is one cable in and out of the pair
okay. See diagrams A and B below:
A -----Pos Neg------
| |
-----Pos Neg------
B -----Pos Neg
| |
Pos Neg------
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey all,
If you'd like to be on the T-shirt for the 2007 NEDRA Anniversary as
a sponsor let me know ASAP.
I'm taking the T-shirts to the printer today at 3:00 pm EST
Hi-Torque Electric and Thunderstruck Motors are two of our headlining
sponsors.
The design of the shirt can be seen on the NEDRA homepage.
We are still taking sponsors after today but if you want to be on the
shirts be sure to let me know by todays 3:00 pm deadline.
The race is July 17 and 18.
Chip Gribben
NEDRA
http://www.nedra.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 08:51 AM 8/1/2007, you wrote:
Bill Dennis wrote:
_____________________________________
| | _|_
__|__ + | / \ armature
___ 36v / S1 \___/
| - | _________ | series
|____/_____|____________|_____ | |_ motor
S2 | B+| _|_ | _|
| | D1 /_\ | _| field
__|__ + | |___|_____|
___ 144v | |_| |M-
| - | -||_ Q1 |
| | | | |
|____________|_____| | Controller
B-|_________|
Close either S1 or S2 to be using 14-cell mode or 17-cell mode, respectively.
Start off in 14-cell mode, then switch to 17-cell mode when up to speed.
Controller never sees more the 144V across it. Charge the two battery
strings separately.
This should work. S1 and S2 obviously can't both be closed at once! Both
strings of batteries should have fuses just in case.
You would also have to be sure to turn the controller fully off, then
switch pack voltages, then resume controller operation. Switching S1 or S2
while the controller is operating would do nasty things.
You also don't want to allow S2 to be closed if it would put the
controller in current limit. With the extra batteries, the controller
can't limit motor current. The 36v pack would force current to keep
flowing in the freewheel diodes (D1) even with the MOSFETs (Q1) totally off.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Would adding a diode in parallel with S1 make it possible to switch the 36V
pack in and out without having the controller fully off?
Then there is still a current path for both Q1 and D1 even with both S1 and
S2 open, and at the moment I am not seeing how it would short anything out.
Or you could replace S1 with the diode and just accept the extra voltage drop.
_____________________________________
| | | _|_
__|__ + | _|_ / \ armature
___ 36v / S1 /_\ D2 \___/
| - | | _________ | series
|____/_____|_______|____|_____ | |_ motor
S2 | B+| _|_ | _|
| | D1 /_\ | _| field
__|__ + | |___|_____|
___ 144v | |_| |M-
| - | -||_ Q1 |
| | | | |
|____________|_____| | Controller
B-|_________|
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Chip, all
Love the look 8^) although I believe you meant to say
August 17th and 18th.
The Raffle motor's coming along nicely 8^) As an
added perk I discovered that although different the DE
plates used on these motors have the same mounting
bolt hole pattern as the ADC9 motors so it's my hope
there might be hub adapter plates out there that (with
a little modding) would bolt right up to this motor!
I'm personally looking forward to another fun time at
the Wayland Juice Bar hanging with all the crazies 8^P
Unfortunantly (for some) you'll have to attend the
EVent to have a chance at winning this motor.
Although I will look into offering something more
available to those who just can't get off the couch
sometime in the future 8^o
As someone who can't always make the EVents myself I
know it takes great effort for both racers and
attendies but this should be one of those EVents that
deserves a good showing of support 8^)
Anyway here's to Chip, who always comes through for
NEDRA with his awesome artwork and who's also done a
great job of keeping the NEDRA website clean, crisp,
and updated 8^)
Cya there
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> If you'd like to be on the T-shirt for the 2007
> NEDRA Anniversary as
> a sponsor let me know ASAP.
>
> I'm taking the T-shirts to the printer today at 3:00
> pm EST
>
> Hi-Torque Electric and Thunderstruck Motors are two
> of our headlining
> sponsors.
>
> The design of the shirt can be seen on the NEDRA
> homepage.
>
> We are still taking sponsors after today but if you
> want to be on the
> shirts be sure to let me know by todays 3:00 pm
> deadline.
>
> The race is July 17 and 18.
>
> Chip Gribben
> NEDRA
> http://www.nedra.com
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for
today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 8/1/2007 6:12:01 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
xxxxxx
A fuel cell is NOT an engine, it is merely a type of battery; the only
difference is that it generates it's own power rather than just storing it.
------------
I think you would consider a fuel cell similar to an engine/generator,
because you put fuel in one end and get electrical power out the other. There
is
no electrical energy stored in a fuel cell.
However a battery just stores electrical energy.
So wouldn't an EV have stored electrical energy, battery/cap whatever, to
drive an electric motor, anything added, generator, fuel cell, solar etc. make
it a hybred?
My two watts worth.
Jim
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jody -
I still think that the single most important thing is to make sure you have
tires that have documented low values of rolling resistance.
You can find RR values for a lot of different tires here:
www.trb.org/publications/sr/sr286.pdf
Also, take a look at the greenseal tire rolling resistance report here:
http://www.greenseal.org/resources/reports/CGR_tire_rollingresistance.pdf
Probably the next most important thing is the inflation pressure. If you
have taken care of these first two, it might be worth it to get a wider
tire.
Phil
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: RE: Bridgestone Ecopia EP-03 Tires - tire width vs RR
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 08:58:08 -0400
Phil,
Good explanation! It makes me think that I might want to go from
155/80R13 tires on my Geo to 185/70R13 tires. If wider tires at the
same PSI offer lower rolling resistance I might actually gain a mpg out
of em. I will have to research the exact size required to get the same
revs per mile though. Luckily tirerack.com has a great specs page for
tires that tells all the particulars of different brands of tires.
Jody
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Phil Marino
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 23:09
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Bridgestone Ecopia EP-03 Tires - tire width vs RR
Hi, Brian
>
Phil Marino here. I'll put my comments within your post:
>From: Brian Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>CC: Phil Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: RE: Bridgestone Ecopia EP-03 Tires - tire width vs RR
>Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 0:42:29 -0700
>
>Well, if decreasing the width of the tire causes it to deflect more,
>then yes, the contact patch may >remain constant. Then again, it could
decrease.
>It could increase as well. Whether the contact patch >are decreases,
>increases, or stays the same depends on tire pressure, vehicle weight
>(or mass for all of >you metric wing nuts out there :-D ), side wall
stiffness.
>Oh heck, while we're at it, lets throw in tire >air temperature. I
>don't think that a tire's contact patch is as directly proportional to
>tire pressure and >vehicle weight as you claim. I could be wrong
though.
The contact patch size does not directly affect rolling resistance.
I've read that it does several times on this list, but I haven't yet
heard a logical explanation for that link.
But, to answer the contact patch vs tire width question anyway, here is
a quote from a technical paper by Boeing Aircraft ( search for Boeing,
and "calculating tire area")
" The tire contact area for any aircraft tire is calculated by dividing
the single wheel load by the tire inflation pressure. If the load is
expressed in pounds, and the tire pressure in pounds per square inch,
then the area is in inches squared. "
They are referring to aircraft tires. But, the same principle applies
to car tires. To demonstrate this for yourself, see how much load a
mounted tire with no air pressure will support. That will show how
little the sidewall stiffness contributes to supporting the load on the
tire. Almost all of the load is supported by the tire pressure.
>
>However, if I am wrong, why do road riders (bicyclists) use such narrow
>tires? Why do so many small >EVs and cars like GM's Sun Racer use such
>narrow tires? Is it only for the sake of keeping rotating >weight down?
>I don't think that's the only reason.
Good questions. I answered them a couple of posts ago, but here is a
better explanation. This is from the Schwalbe tire company -
http://www.schwalbetires.com/tech_info/rolling_resistance
First, here is their explanation of why wider tires have lower rolling
resistance ( at the same pressure):
"Which factors affect rolling resistance?
Tire pressure, tire diameter, tire construction, tire tread and other
factors all have an effect on rolling resistance.
The higher the tire pressure, the less is tire deformation and thus the
rolling resistance.
Small diameter tires have a higher rolling resistance at the same tire
pressure, because tire deformation is proportionally more important, in
other words the tire is "less round".
Wider tires roll better than narrow ones. This assertion generally
generates
skepticism, nevertheless at the same tire pressure a narrow tire
deflects
more and so deforms more."
And, in more detail: ( still from Schwalbe):
"Why do wide tires roll better than narrow ones?
The answer to this question lies in tire deflection. Each tire is
flattened
a little under load. This creates a flat contact area.
At the same tire pressure, a wide and a narrow tire have the same
contact
area. A wide tire is flattened over its width whereas a narrow tire has
a
slimmer but longer contact area.
The flattened area can be considered as a counterweight to tire
rotation.
Because of the longer flattened area of the narrow tire, the wheel loses
more of its "roundness" and produces more deformation during rotation.
However, in the wide tire, the radial length of the flattened area is
shorter, making the tire "rounder" and so it rolls better."
And here is why bicycle racers use narrow tires ( again, from Schwalbe)
"Why do Pros ride narrow tires if wide tires roll better?
Wide tires only roll better at the same inflation pressure, but narrow
tires
can be inflated to higher pressures than wide tires. However, they then
obviously give a less comfortable ride.
In addition to this, narrow tires have an advantage over wide ones at
higher
speeds, as they provide less air resistance.
Above all, a bicycle with narrow tires is much easier to accelerate
because
the rotating mass of the wheels is lower and the bicycle is much more
agile."
>
>Oh here's another example, though one that people are probably not as
>familiar with. Why did my street luge go so much faster with 4 roller
blade
>wheels on it than it did with 4 skate board wheels on it? It also had
less
>traction with the roller blade wheels. Man, that was a scary ride! :)
>Roller blade and skate board wheels don't really flex at all, but man,
what
>a difference in top speed!
>
>Again, maybe I'm wrong, but I have been successfully operating with the
>understanding that a narrower tire will give a smaller contact patch
and
>therefore decrease rolling resistance for so long that I have a hard
time
>believing that contact patch is dependent only on tire pressure and
vehicle
>mass.
Well, Schwabe said that the fact that wide tires have lower RR
generates
skepticism, so you're certainly not alone.
Phil
>
>Brian
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migr
ation_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
_________________________________________________________________
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack Murray wrote:
> As I reported earlier, I put a CVT belt drive on my Aspire,
> a Comet 94C,
> http://www.hoffcocomet.com/comet/aftermarket-torque-converters.asp#94c
> It has a variable gearing from 3.49:1 to .78:1.
Do you recall how much this puppy weighs offhand? And around how much
your Aspire weighs?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 8/1/2007 6:23:08 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
xxxxxx
They even drew a "stipled effect" portrait of John. That makes it an
official WJ article. Great mug shot.
_http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118593442187584293.html_
(http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118593442187584293.html)
--------
Plasma Boy, great story in the Wall Street Journal, you're 47? you're
catching up to me.
Keep kicking ice butt.
Jim...............still second quickest lead acid EV in the world.
************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Awesome! Good information on tires and rolling resistance! I was unable
to find information on specific tires in the first link. The second
link gave exact brands of tires but didn't have any tested in the 13"
range. I can use a 185/70R14 tire but I would have to change rims. I
also wish they would have tested the Khumo tires. I am looking at the
Khumo SR21 tires since they have them in the size I need (155/80R13) and
they have a 640AA treadwear rating. Plus the fact that they are $34 a
piece is really hard to beat.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Phil Marino
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 12:20
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Bridgestone Ecopia EP-03 Tires - tire width vs RR
Jody -
I still think that the single most important thing is to make sure you
have tires that have documented low values of rolling resistance.
You can find RR values for a lot of different tires here:
www.trb.org/publications/sr/sr286.pdf
Also, take a look at the greenseal tire rolling resistance report here:
http://www.greenseal.org/resources/reports/CGR_tire_rollingresistance.pd
f
Probably the next most important thing is the inflation pressure. If
you have taken care of these first two, it might be worth it to get a
wider tire.
Phil
>From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>Subject: RE: Bridgestone Ecopia EP-03 Tires - tire width vs RR
>Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 08:58:08 -0400
>
>Phil,
>
>Good explanation! It makes me think that I might want to go from
>155/80R13 tires on my Geo to 185/70R13 tires. If wider tires at the
>same PSI offer lower rolling resistance I might actually gain a mpg out
>of em. I will have to research the exact size required to get the same
>revs per mile though. Luckily tirerack.com has a great specs page for
>tires that tells all the particulars of different brands of tires.
>
>Jody
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>Behalf Of Phil Marino
>Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 23:09
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>Subject: RE: Bridgestone Ecopia EP-03 Tires - tire width vs RR
>
>Hi, Brian
> >
>
>Phil Marino here. I'll put my comments within your post:
>
>
> >From: Brian Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >CC: Phil Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: RE: Bridgestone Ecopia EP-03 Tires - tire width vs RR
> >Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 0:42:29 -0700
> >
> >Well, if decreasing the width of the tire causes it to deflect more,
> >then yes, the contact patch may >remain constant. Then again, it
> >could
>decrease.
> >It could increase as well. Whether the contact patch >are decreases,
> >increases, or stays the same depends on tire pressure, vehicle weight
> >(or mass for all of >you metric wing nuts out there :-D ), side wall
>stiffness.
> >Oh heck, while we're at it, lets throw in tire >air temperature. I
> >don't think that a tire's contact patch is as directly proportional
> >to tire pressure and >vehicle weight as you claim. I could be wrong
>though.
>
>The contact patch size does not directly affect rolling resistance.
>I've read that it does several times on this list, but I haven't yet
>heard a logical explanation for that link.
>
>But, to answer the contact patch vs tire width question anyway, here is
>a quote from a technical paper by Boeing Aircraft ( search for Boeing,
>and "calculating tire area")
>
>" The tire contact area for any aircraft tire is calculated by dividing
>the single wheel load by the tire inflation pressure. If the load is
>expressed in pounds, and the tire pressure in pounds per square inch,
>then the area is in inches squared. "
>
>They are referring to aircraft tires. But, the same principle applies
>to car tires. To demonstrate this for yourself, see how much load a
>mounted tire with no air pressure will support. That will show how
>little the sidewall stiffness contributes to supporting the load on the
>tire. Almost all of the load is supported by the tire pressure.
>
> >
> >However, if I am wrong, why do road riders (bicyclists) use such
> >narrow
>
> >tires? Why do so many small >EVs and cars like GM's Sun Racer use
> >such narrow tires? Is it only for the sake of keeping rotating
>weight down?
>
> >I don't think that's the only reason.
>
>
>Good questions. I answered them a couple of posts ago, but here is a
>better explanation. This is from the Schwalbe tire company -
>http://www.schwalbetires.com/tech_info/rolling_resistance
>
>First, here is their explanation of why wider tires have lower rolling
>resistance ( at the same pressure):
>
>
>
>"Which factors affect rolling resistance?
>
>Tire pressure, tire diameter, tire construction, tire tread and other
>factors all have an effect on rolling resistance.
>
>The higher the tire pressure, the less is tire deformation and thus the
>rolling resistance.
>
>Small diameter tires have a higher rolling resistance at the same tire
>pressure, because tire deformation is proportionally more important, in
>other words the tire is "less round".
>
>Wider tires roll better than narrow ones. This assertion generally
>generates skepticism, nevertheless at the same tire pressure a narrow
>tire deflects more and so deforms more."
>
>
>And, in more detail: ( still from Schwalbe):
>
>"Why do wide tires roll better than narrow ones?
>
>The answer to this question lies in tire deflection. Each tire is
>flattened a little under load. This creates a flat contact area.
>
>At the same tire pressure, a wide and a narrow tire have the same
>contact area. A wide tire is flattened over its width whereas a narrow
>tire has a slimmer but longer contact area.
>
>The flattened area can be considered as a counterweight to tire
>rotation.
>Because of the longer flattened area of the narrow tire, the wheel
>loses
>
>more of its "roundness" and produces more deformation during rotation.
>However, in the wide tire, the radial length of the flattened area is
>shorter, making the tire "rounder" and so it rolls better."
>
>And here is why bicycle racers use narrow tires ( again, from Schwalbe)
>
>"Why do Pros ride narrow tires if wide tires roll better?
>
>Wide tires only roll better at the same inflation pressure, but narrow
>tires can be inflated to higher pressures than wide tires. However,
>they then obviously give a less comfortable ride.
>
>In addition to this, narrow tires have an advantage over wide ones at
>higher speeds, as they provide less air resistance.
>
>Above all, a bicycle with narrow tires is much easier to accelerate
>because the rotating mass of the wheels is lower and the bicycle is
>much more agile."
>
>
> >
> >Oh here's another example, though one that people are probably not as
> >familiar with. Why did my street luge go so much faster with 4 roller
>blade
> >wheels on it than it did with 4 skate board wheels on it? It also had
>less
> >traction with the roller blade wheels. Man, that was a scary ride! :)
> >Roller blade and skate board wheels don't really flex at all, but
> >man,
>what
> >a difference in top speed!
> >
> >Again, maybe I'm wrong, but I have been successfully operating with
> >the
>
> >understanding that a narrower tire will give a smaller contact patch
>and
> >therefore decrease rolling resistance for so long that I have a hard
>time
> >believing that contact patch is dependent only on tire pressure and
>vehicle
> >mass.
>
>Well, Schwabe said that the fact that wide tires have lower RR
>generates skepticism, so you're certainly not alone.
>
>Phil
>
>
>
> >
> >Brian
> >
> >
> >
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_mig
>r
>ation_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
>
_________________________________________________________________
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migr
ation_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.rqriley.com/u-car.html
Jack, I'd like one day to build an electric Urba Car - with 'your' CVT.
I know the current frame isn't anywhere near able to handle lots of
batteries, but it could be done.
Thoughts anyone?
(of course, I've got to finish my current project, the 1986 Mazda.....)
Since its 4-wheel base makes it an 'automobile' - I have concerns with
licensing.
Would I be better to go with the Doran, TriMagnum, or XR3 model, since
they're 'motorcycles' - and have less restrictions on design?
There's no way I could afford to put airbags and whatnot in it...
Ed Cooley
Greg Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
08/01/2007 12:09
Please respond to
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To
ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
cc
Subject
Re: CVT results update
Jack Murray wrote:
> As I reported earlier, I put a CVT belt drive on my Aspire,
> a Comet 94C,
> http://www.hoffcocomet.com/comet/aftermarket-torque-converters.asp#94c
> It has a variable gearing from 3.49:1 to .78:1.
Do you recall how much this puppy weighs offhand? And around how much
your Aspire weighs?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Awesome story! Congratulations!
----- Original Message ----
From: Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: EV Discussion List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2007 9:18:28 AM
Subject: John Wayland in Wall Street Journal
Check out today's Wall Street Journal. It looks like it made the
front page.
They even drew a "stipled effect" portrait of John. That makes it an
official WJ article. Great mug shot!
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118593442187584293.html
Great story John. This one's a keeper.
Chip
NEDRA
http://www.nedra.com
____________________________________________________________________________________
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for
today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
--- End Message ---
