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Today's Topics:
1. EVLN: Tesla adds free titanium underbody pack shields to
Model S (brucedp5)
2. EVLN: ?18k Zoe provides the best value/quality balance
r:90-60mi (brucedp5)
3. Re: Charger for flooded cell NiCd batteries? (EVDL Administrator)
4. Re: Charger for flooded cell NiCd batteries? (Evan Tuer)
5. HACKED PRIUS RUNNING ON MUNI POWER LINES (Ing. Marco Gaxiola)
6. Re: HACKED PRIUS RUNNING ON MUNI POWER LINES (Peter Gabrielsson)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 01:46:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: brucedp5 <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla adds free titanium underbody pack shields
to Model S
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Either by request or during the next servicing, the free shields will be
installed
http://green.autoblog.com/2014/03/28/prevent-fire-tesla-adds-free-titanium-underbody-shields-model-s/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+weblogsinc%2Fautoblog+%28Autoblog%29
Tesla adds free titanium underbody shields to Model S to prevent fires
Mar 28th 2014 By Sebastian Blanco Tesla Tip: Raphael
[image
http://o.aolcdn.com/dims-shared/dims3/GLOB/crop/424x280+159+19/resize/250x165!/format/jpg/quality/85/http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/adam/8d614c3781ac389a9ab6d6f946aa6924/tesla%20titanium%20underbody.png
Tesla Model S Titanium Underbelly
]
Following a garage fire incident with a Model S EV last year, Tesla Motors
quickly sent out an over-the-air software update to adjust how the car
charges. Following two on-road fires caused by road debris that struck the
underside of different Model S EVs (one in Washington State and the other in
Tennessee), Tesla basically said, that it was a random thing, and the car is
perfectly safe. The company later sent out a software update to have the car
ride a bit higher at highway speeds. Today, Tesla is offering a more
substantial solution.
Tesla CEO Elon Musk has announced that all Model S EVs built since March 6
have a stronger triple underbody shield that should "bring this (fire) risk
down to virtually zero." The company conducted 152 tests using, "every worst
case debris impact we can think of, including hardened steel structures set
in the ideal position for a piking event, essentially equivalent to driving
a car at highway speed into a steel spear braced on the tarmac" and is now
confident that there's basically nothing that can break through the new
barriers. As you can see here, the shields prevent a concrete block, a three
ball tow hitch and a steel alternator from puncturing the car's underside.
The new shields should "bring this (fire) risk down to virtually zero."
Any Model S owner who wants the new triple shield can ask for it, and even
if they don't ask, the structure will be installed whenever the car is next
in for service. The three layers of the shield include a rounded, hollow
aluminum bar, a titanium plate and "a shallow angle, solid aluminum
extrusion." The new shields, "only have a 0.1 percent impact on range and
don't affect ride or handling," Musk writes, which means there's no reason
for Model S owners not to get the upgrade. You can read all of Musk's
explanation [in the PR] below ...
[? green.autoblog.com]
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1091140_teslas-fire-fix-model-s-to-get-titanium-battery-shield
Tesla's Fire Fix: Model S To Get Titanium Battery Shield
03/28/2014
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/elon-musk-tesla-solved-federal-fire-probe/story?id=23097173
Tesla's Model S Gets Titanium Upgrade With Triple Underbody Shield
March 28, 2014
http://www.tribtown.com/view/story/cd11304c82b84eadbcd91fcca189625b/US--Tesla-Fires
Tesla to install 3 shields to ward of roadway debris, prevent battery fires
March 28, 2014
http://wallstcheatsheet.com/automobiles/battery-fires-begone-tesla-looks-to-titanium-armor-for-help.html/
Battery Fires Begone: Tesla Looks to Titanium Armor for Help
March 28, 2014
http://investorplace.com/2014/03/tsla-nhtsa-closes-investigations-tesla-fires/
NHTSA Closes Investigations Into Tesla Fires
The agency says it didn't find a defect in the Model S
Mar 28, 2014
For all EVLN posts use:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date
Here are today's archive-only EV posts:
EVLN: Bombardier?s Electric bus takes to Germany's roads
EVLN: New NZ mail Electric delivery vehicles trialled
EVLN: New free EVSE installed in Tracy, CA
EVLN: Oslo makes room for more EVs> ban petrol & diesel ice by 2035
EVLN: Cameron Diaz' Tesla-S EV in Westwood
+
EVLN: ?18k Zoe provides the best value/quality balance r:90-60mi
{brucedp.150m.com}
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Tesla-adds-free-titanium-underbody-pack-shields-to-Model-S-tp4668748.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 01:48:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: brucedp5 <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: ?18k Zoe provides the best value/quality balance
r:90-60mi
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/lifestyle/motoring/renault-s-electric-zoe-lights-things-up-1.290955
Renault?s electric Zoe lights things up
By Jack McKeown 29 March 2014
[image
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/polopoly_fs/1.290953.1396010304!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/box_620/image.jpg
]
Renault is getting into electric cars in a big way. In addition to the
Fluence ZE, the strange and funky little Twizy and the Kangoo ZE van,
there?s this: the Zoe.
The supermini has an 88bhp electric motor that takes you from a standstill
to 62mph in 13.5 seconds and on to a top speed of 84mph.
That?s not terribly speedy but the better news is it zips up to in-town
speeds in no time at all ? nought to 30mph takes just four seconds.
The Zoe is priced at ?17,993, which falls into a much more affordable
sub-?14k price category once the government?s ?5,000 electric car grant is
taken into account.
That makes it cheaper than a lot of its rivals in the fledgling electric car
market.
How have Renault managed to undercut the opposition? By sneakily making you
lease the car?s batteries, at a cost of at least ?70 a month.
That buys you up to 7,500 miles a year ? go further and they?ll charge you
more.
Some might be balking at this but it?s actually quite a clever way of doing
things. The technology used is largely untested ? at least in a motoring
environment.
Will an electric car?s expensive battery still retain as much charge after
five years of use as it does when new? Might range drop from 60-90 miles to
30? 20? 10?
Who knows? The point is that by leasing the battery you?re transferring this
risk from yourself to Renault.
It?s charged via a home wall point that?s installed by British Gas before
you take delivery of the car. The 7KW charger brings the batteries up to
full in three to four hours.
Officially its range is up to 130 miles but Renault are smart enough to know
that ? as with ?official? fuel economy ? buyers are savvy enough to smell a
rat.
They advise that most drivers will get around 90 miles from a full charge
during summertime. In a Scottish winter, when the lights and heater will be
on, and when the cold saps the battery, 60 miles is as far as you should
look to travel in between plugging it in.
Because it?s electric there isn?t a fuel economy statistic as such, but
cost-wise it works out roughly the same as getting 170mpg from an ordinary
car ? more if you top up the batteries using free public charge points.
So what?s it like to drive? For those who?ve never been in an electric car
the most immediate ? and pleasant ? impression is one of serenity and peace.
You don?t notice just how much noise an internal combustion engine makes
until it?s absent. The flipside of this is that wind and tyre noise become
more noticeable, but it?s still a very quiet car indeed.
The weight of the batteries mean it doesn?t handle nearly as tightly as a
class leader like the Ford Fiesta.
So it isn?t a heap of fun to hustle through bends, although it grips well
enough. But the single-gear nature of the transmission means power delivery
is seamless and the suspension soaks up bumps quite nicely.
Inside it?s all very sci-fi, with an off-white colour scheme and plenty of
LEDs along with a touchscreen monitor.
You sit high and there isn?t enough legroom for very tall drivers but
otherwise space isn?t bad. There?s a 338 litre boot, which will expand to
1,225 if you drop the rear seats.
Electric cars still have limitations ? range being foremost ? but the Zoe
provides the best value/quality balance of the current crop.
Price: ?15,195
0-62mph: 13.5 seconds
Top speed: 84mph
Fuel economy: N/A
CO2 emissions: 0
Range: Up to 130 miles
[? 2014 DC Thomson]
For all EVLN posts use:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date
Here are today's archive-only EV posts:
EVLN: Bombardier?s Electric bus takes to Germany's roads
EVLN: New NZ mail Electric delivery vehicles trialled
EVLN: New free EVSE installed in Tracy, CA
EVLN: Oslo makes room for more EVs> ban petrol & diesel ice by 2035
EVLN: Cameron Diaz' Tesla-S EV in Westwood
+
EVLN: Tesla adds free titanium underbody pack shields to Model S
{brucedp.150m.com}
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-18k-Zoe-provides-the-best-value-quality-balance-r-90-60mi-tp4668749.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2014 10:08:20 -0400
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger for flooded cell NiCd batteries?
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
On 31 Mar 2014 at 2:54, Jan Steinman wrote:
> he person I got these batteries from fried individual batteries -- I
> mean internally melted! -- by charging them to spec in a 144V string!
I've heard of this happening from gross overcharging, but NEVER when they
were "charged to spec" (in accordance with Saft's specifications).
I don't recommend it, but you can gas these batteries all day at 7 amps
with no significant harm, just like you can trickle charge small (AA-D)
NiCd cells forever with little or no effect on cycle life.
There were problems with early STM5-100MRs and I think also with STM5-
140MRs. When used at anything over 2C5 to 2.5C5, the separators would
fail, IIRC, often with catastropic results. However, Saft STM5-180s are
strudy batteries.
You do not need regulators at the battery or cell level.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me. To send a private
message, please obtain my email address from the webpage
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 15:10:05 +0100
From: Evan Tuer <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charger for flooded cell NiCd batteries?
Message-ID:
<CAF3nPGGUaw0rQwxoT1KpB2iq0y0aSDb4okqXn0F=apljuif...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I doubt this too. I've never heard of these cells being damaged or
overheating through *correct* charging, although I'm only familiar with the
water-cooled variety.
I have heard of one Saft pack being cooked. IIRC it was a Manzanita PFC
charger, something to do with it restarting as the voltage dropped, then
thermal runwaway at bulk charge current. This is not charging to spec
though.
On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 3:08 PM, EVDL Administrator <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 31 Mar 2014 at 2:54, Jan Steinman wrote:
>
> > he person I got these batteries from fried individual batteries -- I
> > mean internally melted! -- by charging them to spec in a 144V string!
>
> I've heard of this happening from gross overcharging, but NEVER when they
> were "charged to spec" (in accordance with Saft's specifications).
>
> I don't recommend it, but you can gas these batteries all day at 7 amps
> with
> no significant harm, just like you can trickle charge small (AA-D) NiCd
> cells forever with little or no effect on cycle life.
>
> There were problems with early STM5-100MRs and I think also with STM5-
> 140MRs. When used at anything over 2C5 to 2.5C5, the separators would
> fail,
> IIRC, often with catastropic results. However, Saft STM5-180s are strudy
> batteries.
>
> You do not need regulators at the battery or cell level.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>
>
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 08:20:03 -0700
From: "Ing. Marco Gaxiola" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Subject: [EVDL] HACKED PRIUS RUNNING ON MUNI POWER LINES
Message-ID: <02bd01cf4e87$0678df50$136a9df0$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Not sure if I saw this on EVDL or FB, but in any case it is interesting:
http://www.thebolditalic.com/articles/4717-hacked-prius-running-on-muni-powe
r-lines
HACKED PRIUS RUNNING ONMUNI POWERLINES
By Sierra Hartman
A couple months ago I was walking out of Golden Gate Park onto Fulton around
8th Avenue. I stepped onto the sidewalk just in time to see a Prius roll by
with a pair of giant antennae mounted on the roof. At first I thought it was
just some kind of art-car getup, but then I realized the antennae was the
same power pole doodad that MUNI buses use (I later learned they're called
"trolley poles"). Not only that, they were actually running along the
overhead power cables for the 5 line. The driver cruised past with a
high-pitched humming noise as I stood there thinking, "No. Fucking. Way."
Two weeks ago I was in the Safeway parking lot at 16th and Bryant when I saw
the driver again. This time I was on my motorcycle and happened to have my
camera. I snapped a few shots as he passed the bus stop, then jumped on my
bike and followed him east on 16th. I caught up to him a few blocks later at
Kansas. Before I even dropped into first gear I could hear Foghat blaring
out the windows, "Sloow riide, take it easy."
I pulled up behind him and noticed his fantastically appropriate license
plate: MUNI PWR. I sidled up next to the open driver's side window and
shouted over the music, "Hey, man! Are you actually running on the power
lines with that thing?"
"You know it, dude! 150 miles of free energy courtesy of Mr. MTA!"
I instantly had a lot of questions and asked if we could talk. From his back
pocket he fished out a business card that looked like it had been in there
for a year.
"Can't talk now, but yeah man, give me a call."
All the card said was "Jon" with a phone number on the bottom. "All right,
dude, MUNI's coming," he said, gesturing at the approaching bus behind us.
I went home and called him later that day. I asked if we could meet in
person to talk more, and we set a time to meet at his place in the Outer
Richmond.
I was excited to get a closer look at the car, but when I got to Jon's
building, there was a conspicuous lack of power cables and the car was
nowhere to be found. He buzzed me up to his apartment and greeted me at the
top of the stairs. He was a calmer, more stoic version of the wild-eyed
character I met before, and after a minute or two of the standard first
meeting chitchat, I asked where his car was.
"Oh, she's got a special home."
I asked what kind of special home, and he said with a grin that he was not
at liberty to say.
"She wouldn't do too well out here in the avenues anyway. Once I come off
the power lines I only have about two minutes of go time before the
batteries quit. After that I gotta depend on the ol' Chevrolegs. It's
usually fine for turning around or parking but it's no bueno if I'm stuck at
the bottom of a hill. As long as I plan ahead, though, the wires get me just
about anywhere and everywhere I want to go. Except they get pretty pissed
when I run on the light-rail lines on 3rd Street."
Whenever I asked about how he came upon the trolley poles or his discovery
of how they worked, he less than subtly evaded the question and changed the
subject. I suspected he had some connection with MUNI, probably a former
employee who somehow maintained access to a less-frequented storage
facility. I've seen old streetcars and antique buses parked in big lots in
Dogpatch and figured there must be facilities for the electric buses too.
I had a hundred questions aside from that, though, so the conversation went
on regardless. I asked what the hardest part was in putting the whole thing
together.
"The juice, man. The overhead power lines put out 600 volts at around 400
amps; plenty of "juice" to stop your heart and fry your extremities." So how
do you use an electrical system designed to propel a 30,000-lb. bus to run a
3,000-lb. Frankenhybrid?
"You just gotta siphon it off," he said, as if it would all be so easy.
The NiMh battery that does the heavy lifting in a normal Prius puts out 273
volts at 6.5 amps. Jon uses up the excess power on a whole lot of resistors,
full-time headlights, and a kick-ass stereo system. The more we talked, the
more interesting he got. As it turned out, this wasn't his first attempt at
public transport piracy.
"A few years ago I modified an old VW Beetle to run on the cable car tracks,
but they shut that one down real quick."
The car I saw wasn't even his first Prius. The first one was a 2003 model
that apparently wasn't built as robustly as the later ones.
"She just couldn't handle the juice, man. I was driving up Van Ness one day
and the roof unit started buzzing real loud. The whole engine compartment
caught on fire and all the plastic under the hood started to melt. I kind of
wish I would have saved it - it would have made a cool sculpture now that I
think about it."
I asked if he would consider making more if people offered up their hybrids
for customization.
"Absolutely, though I wonder how long it would last. The few guys at MUNI
who have caught up with me aren't as impressed as you are. They haven't
figured out how to make it illegal yet, but I can only imagine that'd happen
pretty quick if it became a 'thing,' you know? Still, if someone is down,
I'm always up for another project."
I got the impression that Jon's car was more of a science experiment than a
genius way to save money on gas, so I don't know how many of these we'll see
buzzing around the city anytime soon. For anyone interested in volunteering
their Prius for Munification, you can reach Jon at [email protected]. But
for now, keep an eye out for Jon and his Franken-car on a bus route near
you.
Ing. Marco Gaxiola
EvMarch - Director
https://www.facebook.com/EvMarch
---
Este mensaje no contiene virus ni malware porque la protecci?n de avast!
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2014 08:52:07 -0700
From: Peter Gabrielsson <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] HACKED PRIUS RUNNING ON MUNI POWER LINES
Message-ID:
<cacvx+u4m8+-+cf4rq6n9m_guuurbjn0nuxqgaoc5wv4u-xe...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Published April 1st
On Wed, Apr 2, 2014 at 8:20 AM, Ing. Marco Gaxiola <[email protected]>wrote:
> Not sure if I saw this on EVDL or FB, but in any case it is interesting:
>
>
>
> http://www.thebolditalic.com/articles/4717-hacked-prius-running-on-muni-powe
> r-lines
>
>
>
>
> HACKED PRIUS RUNNING ONMUNI POWERLINES
>
> By Sierra Hartman
>
> A couple months ago I was walking out of Golden Gate Park onto Fulton
> around
> 8th Avenue. I stepped onto the sidewalk just in time to see a Prius roll by
> with a pair of giant antennae mounted on the roof. At first I thought it
> was
> just some kind of art-car getup, but then I realized the antennae was the
> same power pole doodad that MUNI buses use (I later learned they're called
> "trolley poles"). Not only that, they were actually running along the
> overhead power cables for the 5 line. The driver cruised past with a
> high-pitched humming noise as I stood there thinking, "No. Fucking. Way."
>
> Two weeks ago I was in the Safeway parking lot at 16th and Bryant when I
> saw
> the driver again. This time I was on my motorcycle and happened to have my
> camera. I snapped a few shots as he passed the bus stop, then jumped on my
> bike and followed him east on 16th. I caught up to him a few blocks later
> at
> Kansas. Before I even dropped into first gear I could hear Foghat blaring
> out the windows, "Sloow riide, take it easy."
>
> I pulled up behind him and noticed his fantastically appropriate license
> plate: MUNI PWR. I sidled up next to the open driver's side window and
> shouted over the music, "Hey, man! Are you actually running on the power
> lines with that thing?"
>
> "You know it, dude! 150 miles of free energy courtesy of Mr. MTA!"
>
> I instantly had a lot of questions and asked if we could talk. From his
> back
> pocket he fished out a business card that looked like it had been in there
> for a year.
>
> "Can't talk now, but yeah man, give me a call."
>
> All the card said was "Jon" with a phone number on the bottom. "All right,
> dude, MUNI's coming," he said, gesturing at the approaching bus behind us.
>
> I went home and called him later that day. I asked if we could meet in
> person to talk more, and we set a time to meet at his place in the Outer
> Richmond.
>
> I was excited to get a closer look at the car, but when I got to Jon's
> building, there was a conspicuous lack of power cables and the car was
> nowhere to be found. He buzzed me up to his apartment and greeted me at the
> top of the stairs. He was a calmer, more stoic version of the wild-eyed
> character I met before, and after a minute or two of the standard first
> meeting chitchat, I asked where his car was.
>
> "Oh, she's got a special home."
>
> I asked what kind of special home, and he said with a grin that he was not
> at liberty to say.
>
> "She wouldn't do too well out here in the avenues anyway. Once I come off
> the power lines I only have about two minutes of go time before the
> batteries quit. After that I gotta depend on the ol' Chevrolegs. It's
> usually fine for turning around or parking but it's no bueno if I'm stuck
> at
> the bottom of a hill. As long as I plan ahead, though, the wires get me
> just
> about anywhere and everywhere I want to go. Except they get pretty pissed
> when I run on the light-rail lines on 3rd Street."
>
> Whenever I asked about how he came upon the trolley poles or his discovery
> of how they worked, he less than subtly evaded the question and changed the
> subject. I suspected he had some connection with MUNI, probably a former
> employee who somehow maintained access to a less-frequented storage
> facility. I've seen old streetcars and antique buses parked in big lots in
> Dogpatch and figured there must be facilities for the electric buses too.
>
> I had a hundred questions aside from that, though, so the conversation went
> on regardless. I asked what the hardest part was in putting the whole thing
> together.
>
> "The juice, man. The overhead power lines put out 600 volts at around 400
> amps; plenty of "juice" to stop your heart and fry your extremities." So
> how
> do you use an electrical system designed to propel a 30,000-lb. bus to run
> a
> 3,000-lb. Frankenhybrid?
>
> "You just gotta siphon it off," he said, as if it would all be so easy.
>
> The NiMh battery that does the heavy lifting in a normal Prius puts out 273
> volts at 6.5 amps. Jon uses up the excess power on a whole lot of
> resistors,
> full-time headlights, and a kick-ass stereo system. The more we talked, the
> more interesting he got. As it turned out, this wasn't his first attempt at
> public transport piracy.
>
> "A few years ago I modified an old VW Beetle to run on the cable car
> tracks,
> but they shut that one down real quick."
>
> The car I saw wasn't even his first Prius. The first one was a 2003 model
> that apparently wasn't built as robustly as the later ones.
>
> "She just couldn't handle the juice, man. I was driving up Van Ness one day
> and the roof unit started buzzing real loud. The whole engine compartment
> caught on fire and all the plastic under the hood started to melt. I kind
> of
> wish I would have saved it - it would have made a cool sculpture now that I
> think about it."
>
> I asked if he would consider making more if people offered up their hybrids
> for customization.
>
> "Absolutely, though I wonder how long it would last. The few guys at MUNI
> who have caught up with me aren't as impressed as you are. They haven't
> figured out how to make it illegal yet, but I can only imagine that'd
> happen
> pretty quick if it became a 'thing,' you know? Still, if someone is down,
> I'm always up for another project."
>
> I got the impression that Jon's car was more of a science experiment than a
> genius way to save money on gas, so I don't know how many of these we'll
> see
> buzzing around the city anytime soon. For anyone interested in volunteering
> their Prius for Munification, you can reach Jon at [email protected].
> But
> for now, keep an eye out for Jon and his Franken-car on a bus route near
> you.
>
>
>
> Ing. Marco Gaxiola
> EvMarch - Director
> https://www.facebook.com/EvMarch
>
>
>
>
> ---
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> http://www.avast.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>
--
www.electric-lemon.com
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