H2 is (as we all know) a dead end until significant innovations are made
and its energy efficiency remains questionable (read: the fuel is likely
to remain non-competitive) no matter how much the fuel cell gets
innovated.
BTW, FCV is still an electric vehicle. It should be called FCEV. Only
the energy storage is in H2 instead of in batteries, but you need a fuel
cell to get the power out again so instead of just a controller to tap
into the battery power, you need the series of H2 tank - fuel cell -
(often intermediate battery storage for power peaks and for regen
braking) - controller - electric motor.

So, when (probably not "if") the FCV line fails, just rip out the
clumsy fuel cell setup and H2 tank, pop in a good battery bank and
off you go in your new EV.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Chris Tromley
via EV
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 3:59 AM
To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Toyota Drops RAV4-EV-gen2, shifting to h2

Without wanting to get into a detailed FCV discussion here, I'm puzzled.

1.  Last I heard a practical FCV was not possible until some Brand New
Stuff was invented, and no one knew if/how/when that would happen.
2.  Last I heard there was no way to create H2 that was anywhere near as
efficient as just filling a battery with the same energy.
3.  Last I heard FCV fueling infrastructure was wildly more expensive
than
EV fueling infrastructure.

I'm trying to understand the business case for pursuing FCVs instead of
the
seemingly more promising path of furthering advanced lithium
chemistries.
 The only plausible reason to pursue FCVs that I can think of is that
it's
too easy for an upstart manufacturer (like that pesky Tesla) to become
an
EV manufacturer.  The fact that FCVs are inherently more complex and
require far more in-house R&D are barriers to entry for new players.
But
even that would require winning the hearts and minds of the driving
public,
and I don't see how the user experience is significantly better.  Heck,
I
don't see how you could make an FCV that would gain more market
acceptance
than Toyota's own hybrids.

I'm trying hard to make sense of this.  Where's the return for Toyota?
Is
there something new in FCV development that I missed?

Chris


On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 4:44 AM, brucedp5 via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

>
>
>
http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2014/05/toyota-pulling-plug-on-rav4-ev/
> Toyota Pulling Plug on RAV4-EV
> by Paul A. Eisenstein  May 16, 2014
>
> [image
>
>
http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Toyota-RAV4-E
V-front-3-4.jpg
> Toyota only planned to sell 2,500 RAV4-EVs
> ]
>
> Maker shifting focus from battery-electric to [h2] power.
>
> Toyota is pulling the plug on the RAV4-EV, the battery-electric
version of
> the soft-roader it introduced two years ago with the help of electric
> vehicle start-up Tesla Motors.
>
> This year's phase-out of the RAV4-EV comes as the Japanese giant gets
ready
> to launch its new [h2]-powered FCV, which made its debut at the Tokyo
Motor
> Show last autumn. While it has been the most successful manufacturer
of
> conventional hybrids, Toyota has repeatedly expressed its concerns
about
> pure battery-electric vehicles relying on advanced lithium-ion
batteries.
>
> The move also comes as Tesla gets ready to launch its own, first
> battery-electric SUV, the Model X due to market something in 2015.
>
> "Our contract called for Tesla to supply approximately 2500
> battery-electric
> powertrains for the RAV4 EV.  We anticipate that volume will be
achieved
> this year," noted John Hanson, Toyota's national manager of advanced
> technology communications.
>
> Toyota's Bob Carter showed off the FCV [h2] car concept vehicle at
CES. A
> production model debuts next year.
>
> The decision to end the RAV4-EV project raises questions about the
> relationship between Toyota and Tesla, the Japanese maker serving as a
> strong and early partner for the Silicon Valley-based
battery-carmaker. In
> fact, founder Elon Musk has credited the ties between the two as
having
> helped Tesla get through a tough financial period before it was able
to
> launch production of its first volume electric vehicle, the Model S
sedan.
>
> Toyota has not only invested in Tesla but it sold the smaller maker
its old
> assembly plant in Fremont, California, where the Model S is now
assembled.
> In turn, Tesla provided not only the batteries but the basic
drivetrain for
> the RAV4-EV.
>
> But the end of production of the RAV4-EV doesn't mean that the two
> companies
> have parted ways.
>
> Hanson noted that the Japanese maker has "a good relationship with
Tesla
> and
> will evaluate the feasibility of working together on future projects."
>
> Tesla's Model X, the company's next gen vehicle, also utilizes cameras
> instead of traditional side view mirrors.
>
> What those are, neither carmaker is saying. But Tesla is busy ramping
up
> its
> own production and getting ready to launch not only the Model X but
also a
> smaller, more affordable battery car that is expected to come to
market
> under $50,000, potentially giving the company a more mainstream
audience
> than the Model S, which currently can run as high as $110,000 when
fully
> loaded.
>
> Though Toyota makes it sound like it simply decided to let the RAV4-EV
> program run its natural, limited course, there could be other factors
at
> work. Tesla, for example, has been struggling to get enough batteries
to
> meet projected future demand. Founder and CEO Musk recently unveiled
his
> so-called Gigafactory project, designed to be the world's largest
> lithium-ion battery plant when it gets into production by decade's
end.
>
> As for Toyota, the maker has been openly skeptical about the potential
of
> lithium-ion power, even running a recent ad that focused on the
limitations
> of battery technology. Notably, it has stuck with more time-tested -
if
> less
> powerful - nickel-metal hydride batteries for its familiar hybrid
models,
> such as the segment-leading Prius line.
>
> Meanwhile, Toyota is getting ready to launch into the emerging [h2]
market
> with its first production model, the FCV, introduced in Tokyo last
> November.
> The vehicle uses a fuel-cell stack to provide electric current for a
drive
> system not unlike that in battery cars like the RAV4-EV. But the FCV
will
> get about 200 miles on a tank of [h2] and can be refilled in minutes,
> rather
> than the hours EVs need to recharge.
>
> The big challenge is the lack of a hydrogen refueling infrastructure,
> though
> there are aggressive steps underway to expand the availability of [h2]
> pumps
> in the Southern California region where the FCV will be sold.
>
> Toyota has to hope it gains traction with its [h2] car. Like its
> competitors, it will have to meet California's tough new
Zero-Emissions
> Vehicle, or ZEV, mandate with a minimum number of sales each year.
>
> While Toyota considers the "feasibility" of future ventures with
Tesla, the
> California-based EV maker has established additional ties with Daimler
AG.
> It provided the drivetrain for the first battery version of the Smart
> Fortwo, known as the Electric Drive. And it developed the drivetrain
for
> the
> new Mercedes-Benz B-Class Electric Drive just going on sale in the
U.S.
>
> A senior Daimler official told TheDetroitBureau.com last week the
company
> is
> currently evaluating additional product opportunities with Tesla.
> [(c) thedetroitbureau.com]
> ...
>
>
http://www.autospies.com/news/Toyota-Kicks-RAV4-EV-To-The-Curb-After-Onl
y-Two-Years-81350/
> Toyota Kicks RAV4-EV To The Curb After Only Two Years
> ...
> http://gas2.org/2014/05/15/toyota-rav4-ev-always-placeholder/
> The Toyota RAV4 EV Was Always A Placeholder
>
>
>
>
>
> For all EVLN posts use:
>
>
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/Na
mlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date
>
>
>
http://www.technologytell.com/in-car-tech/8754/production-begins-nissan-
e-nv200/
> Production begins for Nissan e-NV200
>
>
>
http://www.torquenews.com/1080/nissans-andy-palmer-drops-details-new-lea
f-infiniti-ev-plans
> Nissan's Andy Palmer drops details on new LEAF, Infiniti EV plans
>
>
>
https://gigaom.com/2014/05/13/a-japanese-startup-unveils-a-long-lasting-
and-safer-battery-made-from-carbon/
> A Japanese startup unveils a long-lasting and safer battery made from
> carbon
>
>
>
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/new-zealand-preaches-the-electric-vehi
cle-ways-in-special-bootcamp-81228.html
> New Zealand Preaches the Electric Vehicle Ways in Special Bootcamp
> +
> EVLN: 2014 Nissan Leaf Recall, If Welds Missing, EV Will Be Replaced
>
>
> {brucedp.150m.com}
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
>
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Toyota
-Drops-RAV4-EV-gen2-shifting-to-h2-tp4669571.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>
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