Paul, It appears that you are not learning from experience and data that is shared with you, so I am going to stop responding to your posts. I have shared that I have a pack of used LiFePO4 cells in my garage and I have measured its self discharge and I have seen the cells go down towards zero and obviously I did not want to destroy the pack, so as soon as they went below 2.5V due to self-discharge, I recharged them. Capacity was good, so it looks like it is not the capacity fade that causes self-discharge apparently.
But I wonder why you are on this group and continue to spout information that does not match with the data that people with many years of experience have gathered? Are you here to learn about batteries? Then do yourself a favor and please stop talking and start listening. It appears that you are new to battery charging since you are confusing different terms and specs for battery chemistries. Are you here to tell everyone why everyone is wrong and you are right? You might find that not too many people will continue to listen to you, unless you document your tall claims with peer-reviewed and reproducible data. Over many decades of battery development there have been too many guys that made claims that were too good to be true and that is exactly what everyone found out eventually. Don't stop reading papers but always question whether it is scientifically proven what they claim, because anyone can type words, but it is an entirely different matter to have a proof of a new theory and your claim of "no self discharge" will need a lot of proof, seeing that actual field data tells a different story. I am not here to warn you or to tell you what you must do, just to say that you can expect people to stop listening and filter your messages into the spam folder if you continue on the path that you were on these last 2 days. I have tried to give input and set some of your claims straight, but I need to stop investing my time because I judge that it has become a waste of time since you appear not to listen to correction. Bon voyage. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -----Original Message----- From: EV [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul Dove via EV Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 2:29 PM To: Lee Hart; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Bicycle battery I haven't seen any science from BMS advocates yet. They make lots of assumptions based on nothing. Besides I have a BMS I just don't have a cell level BMS. I haven't heard the theory on self discharge yet? Or the rate at which they discharge or an example of someone putting one on the shelf for 5 years then measuring the voltage and capacity. Save for Jack Richard who boldly did it and published a video. I read a lot of papers and I only found one that talks about self discharge although I don't agree with the way they use the term because what they really verify in the paper is capacity fade. Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 19, 2015, at 3:34 PM, Lee Hart via EV <[email protected]> wrote: > > Ben Goren via EV wrote: >>> I am curious as to how Paul came to his belief. >> >> His methodology is inadequate to the task -- rather like using a >> roadside truck scale to weigh the first four people to pass by and >> concluding that all humans weigh exactly 200 pounds. >> >> Lee, in comparison, is akin to a long-time general practice physician >> who's kept aggregate patient records of vital statistics for decades, >> and concludes that...80% more likely to need treatment... > > I wouldn't put it that starkly. I'd say it's more like "Joe Blow" buying a > new ICE car, and at 3000 miles he sees that the oil level on the dipstick is > still the same. So he concludes that "it doesn't use a drop of oil"! > > So he skips the oil changes. 2 years and 30,000 miles later, the car is towed > to the dealer, three quarts low and with a wrecked engine. > > On the other hand, his mechanic "Crusty" swears by 3000 mile oil changes. > That's not always necessary; but it's good insurance. People who do this can > expect to go 200,000 miles before the engine is using any significant amount > of oil. > > So it's more like the blind men and the elephant. Each sees the same data, > but come to different conclusions because of their perspective. > > I'm not some big company; I'm a lone wolf working in his basement. I have to > get my batteries cheap; as bargains, or donations, or old, or used, or on > loan so I don't dare hurt them. That means they aren't likely to be prime > stock. But that's a good thing! I get to see batteries at their WORST, not > just at their best. > > Another thing... > > "The storage battery is one of those peculiar things which > appeals to the imagination, and no more perfect thing could > be desired by stock swindlers. Just as soon as a man gets > working on the secondary battery, it brings out his latent > capacity for lying." -- Thomas A. Edison > > "There are few industries with more BS than the battery > industry. -- Elon Musk > > Battery information has been unreliable for a hundred years. 99% of what you > read is either lying to make money, or the mindless parroting of what someone > else said. > > This mean you should treat everything you read about batteries as BS > ("baloney sandwiches", as Carl Sagan said). You have to *test it for > yourself*! This is tedious; but not particularly difficult or expensive. > > And, you need to keep a skeptical mind. Just because one does X doesn't mean > that they all do X. It's as if there's a devious little demon inside, doing > everything in his power to trick you. With only a few quick tests, he's > likely to lie to you (and get away with it)! So you need to be diligent, and > repeat your tests in different ways to pry the truth out of him. "Oh yeah? > *Prove* it!" > > -- > The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't there > before. -- Roy Spence > -- > Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
