And it is my prediction, that once a generation of GAS-TANK/GAS-STATION legacy thinkers realize that they can plug in to 120v while parked just like their cell phone, that the stupid L1 EVSE will vanish.
It provides no added value other than looking like a gas station hose. All the ground-fault and other fault protection can be simply embedded in the car, and the only thing that spools out of the car is a 120v plug, just like a vacuum cleaner. I added such a plug on a LEAF once. Only problem was having to de-tune the oboard EVSE down to 10 amps since that was the rating of the HomeDepot re-coiling mechanism. And of course, the warning to make sure ALL the cord was unspooled even if not all used, to prevcent overheating of the spool. See http://aprs.org/charging-DIY.html Bob, WB4APR -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence Harris [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, November 07, 2016 12:29 PM To: Robert Bruninga; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: (NOT) This is exactly how one of the buildings in downtown Vancouver is wired. Every stall on the main floor (I didn’t look at the other floors) had a 120v 20A plug. Just park and plug in. Lawrence > On Nov 7, 2016, at 05:45, Robert Bruninga via EV <[email protected]> > wrote: > > All of which is why simple 120v L1 outlets or cords wins hands down in any > all-day workplace parking lot. > 1) Wiring is only 15 amps per car instead of 50, > 2) Load is constant all day (eliminates demand charges on the owner > 3) Cost to install a $15 outlet is trivial compared to an EVSE > 4) No security issues > 5) No billing system required (pay by the month for the privilege) > 6) No way to game the system. No employer risk > 7) No complex control system that can fail > 7) NO maintenance (no complex evse at eash spot) > 8) Can split some of the load between AM and PM timed spaces for those > with 20 mile commutes > 9) No need for commuters to play musical cars in the parking lot all day > long to share expensve EVSE. > > -----Original Message----- > From: EV [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of ROBERT via EV > Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2016 10:15 PM > To: Lee Hart; Electric Vehicle Discussion List > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV's In > Production > > Lee, I was making the following points in my e-mail concerning the > installation of a large number of EVSEs in a parking area: > > > (1) The installation will be very expensive because of the size of the > required electrical distribution system > > (2) Maintenance will be expensive because of the large number of EVSEs and > equipment failure rates > > (3) The system will have a low utilization rate because vehicle will be > parked for an extended periods > > (4) System security is low because of scammers and no local oversight > > (5) Not a safe system because of a possible pool of water or vandalism. > > (6) The cost of an EVSE is small relative to the cost of the system; > therefore, a lower cost intelligent outlet will have a minor impact on the > total system cost. > > > Due to the above points, the installation of a large number of EVSEs in a > parking area (1) is not an efficient use of equipment, (2) has low system > security, (3) unsafe system and (4) is not a good use of capital. > > > My suggestion to solve the problem was for everyone to charge at home with > a NEMA type outlet or use an induction type system in a parking area. > > > An induction type system reduces the installation cost because of a > reduction in the size of the electrical distribution system. With an > induction coupled system, the main source can sense the presence of a > vehicle or if a vehicle requires power; therefore, the main source can be > sized to the utilization rate. The main source can alternate between > vehicles. This cannot be done with an EVSE system. The NEC requires that > the service required for each EVSE be sized at full load. See Perl > Hartman e-mail describing a 100 plug L2 system. It required 2000A at > 120VAC. With a 20% utilization rate, the induction system would only > require 400A at 120VAC. Maintenance cost would be lower because the > system consist of a main power source, distribution panel, and numerous > coils of wire. The system is safer because it is not effected by water > and is secure from vandalism. > > > Other technical points: > > An X10 system (PowerLine Transmission) will not work in an industrial or > commercial environment because of signal attenuation, electrical noise, > transmission across transformers, and low data transmission rate. RF is > not reliable in a structure with high levels of electrical noise or a lot > of rebar (steel) and concrete. Cell phones and radios do not work > reliably in underground or high rise parking garages or some houses. In > my house, I cannot use a wireless modem. My house has to much rebar, > concrete, and earth. > > > I looked at the nameplate on the Magne Charger that I have in my workshop. > It showed: Charge Port CP7100, 475VAC Peak, 22A AC Max, 400 Hz, 6.5 KW Max > Output Power, Manf Date July 1996. Also, it showed the manufacturer as > Delso Electronics Power Control Systems. This is the unit that is > installed in the car. I could not find the nameplate data on the pedestal > unit with the paddle. If you have any electrical schematics or other info > on these units, I would be interested. Thanks Bob Hensley. > > > ________________________________ > From: EV <[email protected]> on behalf of Lee Hart via EV > <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2016 9:59 AM > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV's In > Production > > ROBERT via EV wrote: >> An EVSE requires an AC cable and data cable. An intelligent outlet >> would still require the same two cables. In addition, a specialty >> intelligent outlet would cost $100 - $200 (guesstimate). > > Not really. An intelligent outlet could do the same, and use RF, or > carrier current signalling to communicate with the EV. > > For example, the GM EV1 Magnechargers used RF signals for authentication. > Remember, they had *no* wires between the vehicle and EVSE. > > The common X10 system is used to remotely control all sorts of AC loads. > Special outlets have a circuit that can send and receive data over the > existing AC power line wiring, and can switch the AC on or off. These > outlets are mass-produced and sell for only $20 or so each. > >> However, the high cost is the installation cost and maintenance cost. > > People forget that large areas of the nation have already had a charging > infrastructure for a very long time. It's been there to plug in ICE block > heaters, Christmas lights, run electric lawnmowers, etc. > > Outdoor AC outlets have been required by the NEC (National Electric Code > for decades. In the states where I've lived (Michigan, New York, and > Minnesota, just about every home, apartment, and business has these > standard 120vac 15a convenience outlets already installed and freely > available for use. > >> High installation and maintenance cost are a problem with developing >> an EV charging infrastructure. The answer is to charge at home with a >> NEMA outlet or install induction charging stations. > > That's true, if they insist on something new, proprietary, and > incompatible with existing systems. Unfortunately, these become the > *requirements* when someone wants to create a new monopoly to get rich. > >> However, for induction charging to work efficiently, you need higher >> frequency chargers. Remember the EV1 induction charging paddle. The >> system operated at 400 HZ. > > The EV1 Magnecharger worked at a much high frequency (around 50 KHz). > The higher frequency actually *hurt* efficiency, but was necessary to make > the paddle small and light. > > We've had 60 Hz induction charging setups for 50%+ years. For example, > Inductran has made them for charging in-plant EVs. Half of a conventional > 60 Hz transformer is in the floor, and the other half in the vehicle. > Drive over it, and turn it on. The two halves of the transformer > magnetically link, to charge safely and efficiently. > > We don't really need expensive high-tech solutions for charging. It's > fundamentally no different than plugging in any other appliance, and > people have been doing that for 100 years. > > -- > Buy thneeds! It's what everyone needs! Get em' now 'fore they're gone! > Which they'll be, before long! -- "The Lorax" by Dr. Seuss > -- > (The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man > persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all "The > Lorax" by Dr. Seuss > -- > Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, > www.sunrise-ev.com<http://www.sunrise-ev.com> > The Sunrise EV2 Project<http://www.sunrise-ev.com/> > www.sunrise-ev.com > The Sunrise EV2 Project Homepage. Welcome! We are a group of dedicated > electric vehicle enthusiasts whose goal is to create an affordable, high > performance electric ... > > > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > EV -- Electric Vehicle Discussion List - lists.evdl.org > ...<http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org> > lists.evdl.org > The Electric Vehicle Discussion List is a forum for discussing the current > state of the art and future direction of electric vehicles (EVs). We > define an EV as a ... > > > Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ EVDL EV News Archive - > Electric Vehicle Discussion List<http://evdl.org/evln/> evdl.org EVLN - EV > News Archive Edited by Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter: EVLN: home | help | > archive | news | privacy policy | terms of service > > > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > [https://s1.yimg.com/dh/ap/default/130909/y_200_a.png]<http://groups.yahoo > .com/group/NEDRA> > > Yahoo! Groups<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA> > groups.yahoo.com > / > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20161107/dfd601 > 3e/attachment.htm> > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag > racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
