How are they producing H2 that doesn't require 4x as much electricity per mile as an EV? I mean other than steam reforming natural gas which isn't renewable and also isn't particularly clean.
June 3, 2020 8:32 PM, "evln via EV" <[email protected]> wrote: > https://thedriven.io/2020/06/04/hydrogen-cars-wont-overtake-electric-vehicles-because-theyre-hampere > -by-laws-of-science > Hydrogen cars won’t overtake electric vehicles because they’re hampered by > laws of science > June 4, 2020 Tom Baxter > > [images > https://images.theconversation.com/files/339188/original/file-20200602-133910-1dlknyt.png > energy vector transition > > https://images.theconversation.com/files/339187/original/file-20200602-133924-1qb51y5.png > Energy efficiency in electric vehicles > ] > > Hydrogen has long been touted as the future for passenger cars. The hydrogen > fuel cell electric vehicle (FCEV), which simply runs on pressurised hydrogen > from a fuelling station, produces zero carbon emissions from its exhaust. > > It [fcv] can be filled as quickly as a fossil-fuel equivalent and offers a > similar driving distance to petrol [ice]. It has some heavyweight backing, > with Toyota for instance launching the second-generation Mirai [ > http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/OT-Recall-all-Mirai-fcvs-h2-fcv-tech-Co > es-Under-Fire-tp4685832p4695208.html > ] later in 2020. > > The Canadian Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Association recently produced a report > extolling hydrogen vehicles. Among other points, it said that the carbon > footprint is an order of magnitude better than electric vehicles: 2.7g of > carbon dioxide per kilometre compared to 20.9g. > > All the same, I think hydrogen fuel cells are a flawed concept. I do think > hydrogen will play a significant role in achieving net zero carbon emissions > by replacing natural gas [methane, CH4] in industrial and domestic heating. > But I struggle to see how hydrogen can compete with [battery] electric > vehicles, and this view has been reinforced by two recent pronouncements. > > A report by BloombergNEF concluded [ > https://data.bloomberglp.com/professional/sites/24/BNEF-Hydrogen-Economy-Outlook-Key-Messages-30-Mar > 2020.pdf > ]: > > The bulk of the car, bus and light-truck market looks set to adopt > (battery electric technology), which are a cheaper solution than fuel cells. > > Volkswagen [ > https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/stories/battery-or-fuel-cell-that-is-the-question-5868 > ], meanwhile, made a statement comparing the energy efficiency of the > technologies. “The conclusion is clear” said the company. “In the case of > the passenger car, everything speaks in favour of the battery and > practically nothing speaks in favour of hydrogen.” > > Hydrogen’s efficiency problem > The reason why hydrogen is inefficient is because the energy must move from > wire to gas to wire in order to power a car. This is sometimes called the > energy vector transition. > > Let’s take 100 watts of electricity produced by a renewable source such as a > wind turbine. To power an FCEV, that energy has to be converted into > hydrogen, possibly by passing it through water (the electrolysis [ > https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zpxn82p/revision/1 > ] process). This is around 75% energy-efficient, so around one-quarter of > the electricity is automatically lost. > > The hydrogen produced has to be [cleaned/filtered,] compressed, chilled and > transported to the hydrogen station, a process that is around 90% efficient. > Once inside the vehicle, the hydrogen needs converted into electricity, > which is 60% efficient. Finally the electricity used in the motor to move > the vehicle is is around 95% efficient. Put together [ > https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/energy-storage-2019 > ], only 38% of the original electricity – 38 watts out of 100 – are used > [/available > https://www.californiahydrogen.org/wp-content/uploads/files/doe_fuelcell_factsheet.pdf > ]. > > With electric vehicles, the energy runs on wires all the way from the source > to the car. The same 100 watts of power from the same turbine loses about 5% > of efficiency in this journey through the grid (in the case of hydrogen, I’m > assuming the conversion takes place onsite at the wind farm). > > You lose a further 10% of energy from charging and discharging the > lithium-ion battery, plus another 5% from using the electricity to make the > vehicle move. So you are down to 80 watts – as shown in the figure opposite. > Energy efficiency in electric vehicles. > > In other words, the hydrogen fuel cell requires double the amount of energy. > To quote BMW [ > https://www.bmw.com/en/innovation/how-hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-work.html > ]: “The overall efficiency in the power-to-vehicle-drive energy chain is > therefore only half the level of (an electric vehicle).” > > Swap shops ... > Finally a word on the claims on carbon emissions from that Canadian Hydrogen > and Fuel Cell Association report I mentioned earlier. I checked the source [ > https://juser.fz-juelich.de/record/842477/files/Energie_Umwelt_408_NEU.pdf > ] of the statistics, which revealed they were comparing hydrogen made from > purely renwewable electricity with electric vehicles powered by electricity > from fossil fuels. > > If both were charged using renewable electricity, the carbon footprint would > be similar. The original report was funded by industry consortium H2 > Mobility, so it’s a good example of the need to be careful with information > in this area. > [© thedriven.io] > ... > https://theconversation.com/hydrogen-cars-wont-overtake-electric-vehicles-because-theyre-hampered-by > the-laws-of-science-139899 > > [dated] > http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Honda-eu-Prez-sez-f-c-v-diesel-ice-kapu > -abandoned-EV-hev-focused-now-tp4695803.html > Honda.eu Prez sez: fcv &diesel-ice kaput, abandoned> EV &hev focused now > Nov 28, 2019 > > http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Compared-to-EVs-Toyota-Honda-fcvs-are-n > t-practical-tp4690395.html > Compared to EVs> Toyota, Honda fcvs are not practical > Toyota Mirai, Honda FCV Are Impractical, Despite Their Advantage > Jun 22, 2018 > > http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/OT-Toyota-admits-Elon-Musk-is-right-tha > -fcvs-are-incredibly-dumb-tp4688406.html > OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb > Oct 29, 2017 > > http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/OT-fcv-deliveries-halted-2few-pumps-nee > -appt4-slow-1-2-fill-150mi-more-tp4679820.html > OT fcv deliveries halted> 2few pumps, need appt4 slow-1/2-fill(150mi), +more > Jan 16, 2016 ... Toyota Tells Dealers: Stop Mirai sales ... > > + > https://www.thedrive.com/tech/33408/why-we-still-cant-deliver-on-the-promise-of-hydrogen-cars > Why We Still Can't Deliver on the Promise of Hydrogen > Cars > May 11, 2020 2020 is a big year for battery EVs, but there are many reasons > hydrogen fuel cells will never live up to their promise ... For decades, > hydrogen was presumed to be “the fuel of the future,” ... That's not how > it’s played out ... > https://the-drive-3.imgix.net/http://www.carstyling.ru/resources/concept/large/1991_Mazda_HR-X_02.jp > ?auto=compress,format&ixlib=js-1.4.1&s=f4f69b23528a8170096a953cc151578b > > For EVLN EV-newswire posts view: > http://www.evdl.org/archive > https://mail-archive.com/[email protected]/maillist.html > > {brucedp.neocities.org} > > -- > Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html > INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
