The below message from Bill D. is interesting and points out the loss stack up 
quite clearly.  I use a PM100 (Rinehart Motion, now Cascadia Motion) inverter 
with an induction motor (Ford ranger EV Siemens surplus).  The up side of the 
PM100 using the simple state machine mode and the direct throttle pot inputs is 
that I have complete control over the torque command curve, including the 
addition of a 'dead' band in the throttle input which with a little practice 
allows me to coast with no torque command.  I've programmed the band to be very 
narrow so as not to lose too much throttle travel range, but it is possible to 
hold the throttle steady and simply coast along which is particularly good on 
level ground.  The down side of this arrangement is that there is no wind up 
torque being applied to the Borg Warner T5 transmission (US Electricar S10) 
which allows the gear train to rattle back and forth until I let up or increase 
the throttle position.

Paul Wallace


Message: 3
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2022 22:40:38 +1300
From: Bill Dube <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] Regen toll (was: Tesla Y actual wall outlet
        efficiency)
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

With an AC drive, there is no excuse not to use regen. It is built in, 
and essentially free. At least equipment wise.

Regen has significant energy losses, however, so you should use it 
sparingly, or at least knowledgeably.

Typical EV drivetrain losses are in the ~15% range, give or take. 
Whatever the drivetrain losses, they at least double when you 
regeneratively brake.

You first pay that ~15% toll on the way out of the battery, through the 
controller, through the motor, and to the pavement. Then you pay the 
toll once more pulling that same energy from the pavement, through the 
motor, through the controller, and pushing it back into the battery. You 
basically pay twice the toll, or perhaps 30%, to recover the energy with 
regen. You don't get all the energy back.

If you drive a bit more conservatively, you can avoid expending that 
energy extra energy in the first place, and then recovering that energy, 
and paying the regen toll. Not quite as much fun, but you can perhaps 
actually get where you plan to go. :-)

 ??? Bill D.

On 1/4/2022 2:12 PM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:
> On Mon Jan 03 15:02:46 PST 2022 [email protected] said:
>> On 3 Jan 2022 at 12:09, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
>> For decades EV hobbyists dismissed regen as not worth the extra effort to
>> implement.  "Just add another battery or two," they said.
>>
>> That's a pragmatic answer when you've chosen a series DC motor, which is
>> really tough to use for regen.  But in fact, under the right circumstances,
>> regen is like leveling out the hills.
> Yup, and it REALLY depends on where you are driving.
> 95% of my trips are here on Whidbey Island.  Yes there are hills - but they 
> are gentle, and there is only one where I gain a little speed.
> So the only use for Regen is when I stop - and almost all of my driving is on 
> a highway with only about 3 traffic lights per trip, which aren't always 
> stops.
>
> Regen wouldn't give back very much in my situation.
>
>
> --
>
> Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck! 
> http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250
>

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