Okay so we have some good conversation going here. I'll try to keep this is
short as possible. I am actually happy that some may believe the Aptera might
achieve 100 wh/ mi or 10 miles per kWh. I'm really not sure that can be done
but we will see and yes I would like to see some actual range numbers when
testing begins with the production version maybe later this year.
Yes the steering wheel is different and yes Tesla tried something like this and
there were complaints. I think it fits with the look of the Aptera but I'm
also not sure if I will like it even though people who have driven the vehicle
seem to be happy and haven't so far expressed concerns.
On being safer than a motorcycle, in my younger years I may have been naive
enough to think I could just jump clear of my motorcycle when struck by another
vehicle but I'm very sure I will be safer in an Aptera if tee-boned at 30 mph
by another vehicle. There are references to testing that showed the roof
strength of the Aptera is better than other vehicles and the composite
materials used are stronger than steel along with the fact that they will have
two air bags. Yep, would be nice if they had side impact air bags but maybe in
the future.
Stability. the reference presented is from May 1980 which is old news but the
funny thing is it points out three things that make a three wheel vehicle
better than a four wheel vehicle. 1. lighter, 2. more efficient aerodynamic
envelope and 3. reduced cost--everything Aptera has been pointing out. But
here is the real head scratcher from the paper, it concludes that it is
possible to build a 3-wheel car with essentially the same handling and overturn
characteristics as any 4-wheel car. So you want stability, take a look at the
Moose Test conducted over a year ago aptera moose test What makes it stable?
Well Roush has been involved in design and improvements and Aptera has been
fine tuning the suspension. It also has an 88 inch front wheel base as pointed
out-try finding a trailer it will fit on. For Roush Roush Advances Development
of Aptera’s Solar Electric Vehicle | Aptera
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Roush Advances Development of Aptera’s Solar Electric Vehicle | Aptera
Michael
Roush Advances Development of Aptera’s Solar Electric Vehicle Roush, recognized
global leader in engineering, pr...
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As far as storage space, my point is mainly you can carry more than one bag of
groceries and some pretty big items can be placed in the back without all the
trouble of folding down seats and such. Think of it this way, you are going
over to a friends house and want to borrow a ladder, do you take your gas SUV
with seats that don't fold flat or just take the Aptera? I'm sure this
discussion can go either way.
Yep it might be too wide in some cases, i.e. garage or trailer. Agree you are
not going to use an Aptera for a family of four. But again, consider how many
people drive to work or the store or whatever with one person in the car. And
the price of gas, like I said before, isn't going down. And with today's
economy I find it hard to believe the average American can afford three or four
vehicles and are are in fact looking for something that will save them money.
As far as solar, I don't think it is all marketing and yes your results will
vary. Again, testing later this year might help answer some questions but if I
can get even 15 miles of added range while the Aptera is sitting in a parking
lot all day, sounds good to me. As far as comparing the solar on the Aptera to
solar on the roof of your home I'm not quite sure how you can use your the
solar on your home when you are 100 miles from your home. And what many don't
either want to talk about or don't understand, solar on most homes these days
are totally useless when the grid shuts down--things are changing but it is
going to cost money. Maybe just plug in you Aptera instead of buying a backup
battery for your home?
The market for the Aptera? Got me, time will tell. But with 44,000 signed up
for one, I have to believe that if they had 20,000 tomorrow they could easily
sell 10,000 which might set off a fire for demand. But this gets back to my
point about supply. For example, Arcimoto had a demand for something like
5000-10,000 if I remember correctly but when they could only produce a few
hundred a year all you have to do is figure out how long it will be before you
actually get one. If you can't sell enough vehicles you can't be profitable.
If you are going to look back 30 years for examples try my Avanti, it was
supposed to save a 100 year old Studebaker company but because they could not
deliver enough of them and had quality control issues, a vehicle that was said
to be ahead of its' time died.
I agree people are not buying EVs because they are cleaner and will save the
environment, because they won't. And yes there is competition and the longer
it takes Aptera to get to production the more it becomes an issue. But I also
feel it is a good idea and hope I get one.
There are a lot of videos out there and I would recommend watching the good and
the bad with an open mind. The future of EVs may well be a lot different than
it currently seems.
Cheers.
On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 06:59:01 PM PDT, EV List Lackey via EV
<ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
As I said before, raising efficiency rather than jamming in a monster
battery is a Good Thing. If we can believe the claims for Aptera, in that
respect it's on the right track.
I want to see the EPA/WLTP numbers, but I can sort of believe that it could
manage 100 wh/mi. The humble 1992 Solectria Force, a well-designed Geo
Metro conversion, managed 150 wh/mi, though not on the highway.
On 8 Sep 2023 at 0:28, David Heacock via EV wrote:
> it is classified as an autocycle which has features such as three
> wheels, a steering wheel and the driver is enclosed.
Maybe it's just quibbling, but I saw a photo (rendering?) of the interior
and I wouldn't call that weird D-shaped thing a steering wheel. Nor would I
want to use it. Maybe others would be fine with it.
> I would feel much safer driving an Aptera, especially because of the
> way the frame and body are made.
Maybe you'd *feel* safer, but would you really be? I'm not an engineer, but
everything I've read says that it's a challenge to design a stable 3-wheel
vehicle.
http://www.evdl.org/docs/ev_expo_80_8039_3-wheel_stability.pdf
The Corbin Sparrow had some fairly serious stability problems, especially if
the battery mass was changed or moved.
What has Aptera done for improved stability?
> A number of comments have mentioned the limited amount of space inside
> the vehicle but there are references to the Aptera having 60% more
> storage space than a Honda Accord and 20% more than a Toyota Prius.
Now hold on. Are they comparing space behind the seats? To make this fair,
they should fold down the back seats in the Accord and Prius so they're also
2-seat cars.
I don't know how they'd fare that way, but I can tell you that Aptera's
specs claim 32.5 cu ft of cargo space - 920 liters. If we make our Renault
Zoe into a 2-seater, we have 1,225 liters of cargo space - about 1/3 more.
And that's in a smaller exterior than the Aptera's. The Aptera is 455cm
long and 223cm wide. That strikes me as an awfully big footprint for a 2-
seat car.
It's wider than a Tesla Model 3, which is classified as a large car in
Europe. Thus there are places an Aptera can't go. For example, it's 3cm
too wide to fit through the alley leading to my garage.
> I think the more reasonable consideration would not be the storage
> space, but the fact that it is a two seater.
I agree. That makes it a specialty vehicle and limits its sales potential.
Ask Honda why they dropped the CRX, and why they turned the Insight into a
bland 5-seat family car.
> when you consider a lot of people commute to work alone this might
> make a great second vehicle
And not so good for taking the kids out for ice cream or picking up a couple
of friends at the airport. I'm thinking 3rd or 4th vehicle, not second, but
that's me.
> A lot of discussion about how practical solar is for the Aptera ...
Most of it here has had to do with PV efficiency and square area.
Thing is, without tracking, it will only hit peak power at noon, and only in
the summer.
Winter will cut the energy harvest. So will a cloudy place like Seattle.
Tall city buildings will shade it. You can't put it in the garage and still
solar-charge it.
What will it cost to replace the PV if it's in a wreck? Someone mentioned
vandalism, and I don't think you can dismiss that as the coal-rolling crowd
cranks up the violence. Both of these lead to higher insurance costs.
What I'm driving at: I can't think of a case where it doesn't make more
sense to put PV on your roof instead of on your car.
> As far as a market for this vehicle, Aptera thinks there may be a
> market of 600,000 vehicles per year
Sorry, that's an investor pitch, not a realistic sales estimate.
A Mazda Miata is also a 2-seater. Its base price is pretty close - about
$28,000. Last year Mazda moved 10,547. In its best year, 1990, Mazda sold
just under 36,000 Miatas.
So, 600,000 Apteras per year? I don't think so. Maybe 6,000 if they're
lucky.
> From my perspective new EV startups have often failed not because of
> lack of demand but because of lack of supply and the money to make the
> vehicles.
I'd be interested in hearing where you saw that. I've been watching the EV
world since 1967, and the many failures I've seen have involved lack of
demand.
There just weren't a lot of buyers lining up for a EV that did less than an
equivalent ICEV, but cost more. Sure the EV is cleaner, but very few people
care.
Don't forget the competition. The Aptera price is actually pretty good, if
they can stick to it, but at least in Europe, there are several more
conventional EVs in a similar price class. They may have less range, but
they're more flexible.
Cheap and cheerful Chinese EVs are another looming threat. So is Tesla's
long-promised $25k EV, if it ever actually materializes.
I think Aptera has a good basic idea. It probably does more with it than
others have in the past. It wouldn't work for me, but that doesn't mean it
won't work for anyone. I just don't know who or how. Do they? Do you?
David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
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