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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Modified alternator for use in EV (Roland Wiench)
   2. Series Parallel Configuration Question (Joe Plumer)
   3. Re: LionEV ~$30k Li- powered conversions (Joe Plumer)
   4. Re: Series Parallel Configuration Question (Jim Husted)
   5. Re: Looking for a Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford. (Marty Hewes)
   6. Re: Modified alternator for use in EV (Mick Longley)
   7. Re: TS chemistry Was A123 chem (Dmitri)
   8. Re: Looking for a Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford. (Matt Graham)
   9. Re: 24V E-Bike (Chuck Hays)
  10. Re: The fate of the volt, who cares? (Glenn Saunders)
  11. Re: unsubscribe (GWMobile)
  12. Re: Looking for a Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford. (Marty Hewes)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 08:15:07 -0600
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Modified alternator for use in EV
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

Hello Frank,

My EV has driven a alternator, power steering, A/C, vacuum pump and water 
pump for heating many different ways.  Originally, all these devices were 
driven by a large motor, as big as a ADC 7 or 8 at a rpm of 1500 to 2000 
rpm.

The problem here, I was going up a very steep long hill to work every day, 
and when I came down, this vehicle would get up to 80 mph which became too 
dangerous at times.  There was no room to install the REGEN braking system. 
It was test one time, by hanging a very large resistor off the front bumper 
which was 18 inches long and 10 inches square.  It got red hot on that test.

I then direct couple the pilot shaft to a accessory drive system. I use a 
GMC diesel accessory mount that is normally mounted on the front of the 
engine.  I mounted this unit to a 1/2 thick aluminum plate that is bolted 
down to a separate welded in cross members with eight rubber donut type 
engine mounts.

There is a brackets and places that the GMC units fit, even a GMC vacuum 
pump that works very good with a canister mount.

I found there was little drag on the motor while the A/C was off, and 
alternator and power steering was at a lite load. During heavy loads, this 
would increase my ampere-hour by about .5 ah.

The existing motor drive that was driving these accessories by mulitiple 
belts would pull between 20 and 25 amps off the battery.  So this is a 
additional current pulling off the batteries.

Make sure the accessory drive motor feed lines do not come off before the 
battery ampere shunt, but after the shunt, otherwise you will get a error in 
battery ampere usage.

Now the advantage I had with this main motor direct drive system which use a 
Dodge Dyna Flex coupler to a shaft that is mounted with two face bearings 
that is mounted on both sides of the GMC accessory plate, is that when I let 
up on the accelerator on a very step icy hill, and have the large inverter 
alternator loaded up to provide 120 VAC 7 KW power to three heaters, three 
fans and lighting, which now holds the EV at speed when going down the hill.

Looking at the battery amp and motor amp gages at this time, they all read 0 
amps.

The third method I am using now, is the combination of small electric motors 
driving each accessory plus still driving my a series of multiple belts 
coming off a electric clutch that is mounted between the motor pilot shaft 
and accessory drive unit.  You can get this electric drive from Dodge Power 
Transmission Inc which is a Device that is a inline shaft.  Cost about 
$1500.00.  I was able to duplicated this electric clutch by modified one of 
the large early model A/C pumps which has a longer shaft than the new pumps 
have.

Install a grease fitting in this A/C unit and pack it with white wheel 
bearing grease.  Its been working great for about 4 months now, since I 
install it.

I am using four IOTA DC-DC converters connected in series/parallel to 
provide 24 to 28 volts to the separate drive motors on each accessory.  A 
good motor I found is a 24 volt DC 1/2 HP that is a totally enclosed motor 
from Currie Technologies use on there Ebikes. There source is 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  or 1 800 377 4532.

This motor has a internal gear of about 3 to 1 ratio and installing taper 
lock pulley to provide another 3 to 1 ratio, you have plenty of power with 
this motor.  One motor will get me up to 15 mph with my bike in a very fast 
jerk.

I haven't finish wiring up the electric motors yet, except the power 
steering is a electric driven anyway.  Now the way this system will work, is 
when the main motor is under power, a micro switch on the accelerator 
disconnects the electric clutch drive and turns on the DC-DC contactors to 
the accessory electric motors.

When the accelerator is let up while coasting, then the electric clutch is 
engage and the accessory motors go off the line, and again motor and battery 
ampere is reading 0 amps.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Frank John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 6:52 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Modified alternator for use in EV


> Hi Mick,
>
> Maybe someone else replied and I missed it - but I believe that as long as 
> the electric motor is still connected physically to the rest of the 
> drivetrain it will spin anything connected to it via chain or coupling. 
> The motor itself will freewheel i.e. offer no resistance other than 
> minimal bearing resistance, windage, etc. but would still drive an 
> alternator or other accessory.
>
> Can you post details on your alternator conversion?  There's several folks 
> here who regen into their 12 volt accessory battery or run other 
> accessories but regenning into the traction pack has lots of advantages 
> that I can see (and is an idea that I'm exploring as well).
>
> Frank
 



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2007 10:17:06 -0400
From: "Joe Plumer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Series Parallel Configuration Question
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Series Parallel Configuration Question:

I'm not clear on quite how this is done.  Are the motors attached end to end 
to
accomplish this?  That's the picture I have in my mind.

So it looks like:
_____   ______   _
|_____|-|_____|-<_ (rear end)

Is that correct?

Thanks for this clarification.

_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2007 10:21:36 -0400
From: "Joe Plumer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LionEV ~$30k Li- powered conversions
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

I was just about to comment the same thing.  From what I read these cars 
will
have a DC motor with (specs from site) 72+ kW , 110 HP Fuel economy equal to
114+MPG.

I was curious what DC motor they would be using.  But if the base pack costs
$10k then that seems to be inline with doing the conversion and still make 
some
money off the deal.

I'd think about buying one, but it would be cheaper to convert my hybrid to 
a
plug-in.


>The base model for the Hyundai Accent they are converting is priced at
>$12,665. They are asking about $16,000 for the conversion including
>parts and labor. I am new to EV's so I am not sure if this is about the
>right price for a conversion of this type. If they can make money
>selling these cars, I believe other companies will be more likely to get
>into the market as well. With more companies selling EV cars, the price
>will come down and the quality will go up.
>
>Jerry
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>Behalf Of Freddie Hartsell
>Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 8:39 PM
>To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] LionEV ~$30k Li- powered conversions
>
>I have also contacted LionEV and I am very skeptical about their ability
>to
>deliver.  One response that I received stated that they were already
>selling
>these units faster that they could build them.  This same response also
>stated that they had already sold some unit but they would not say how
>many.
>I asked them for more specific information and they just side stepped my
>questions.  I am very concerned with how the conversions are being
>completed.  I even asked them about financing and they stated that they
>could get them financed with 50% down.  I am very concerned with a brand
>new
>vehicle that is not worth even 50% of what you have to pay for it.  When
>I
>asked about warranty repairs I was told that any Hyundai dealer would
>handle
>anything from the transmission back but they would not touch the
>electrical
>parts.  I know that a lot of us are looking for something like this but
>I
>would also suggest a wait and see attitude at least until they get a
>demonstrator model that we can look at.  I found out today that they are
>supposed to have demonstrators available in November and that they are
>going
>to be located somewhere in the Ft. Mill, SC area.  I think that I know
>where
>they will be.  I only live a few miles from Ft. Mill and I will go see
>these
>new EV's as soon as I know they are available.
>
>Thanks, Freddie
>
>http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/899
>http://www.southernev.com/dakotaev.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>Behalf
>Of MIKE WILLMON
>Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 8:12 PM
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] LionEV ~$30k Li- powered conversions
>
>The website says specifically they are currently taking orders on the
>lot of
>1000 Hyundai Accents and Hyundai Tucson GLS' and that the Ford Ranger
>will
>be available in 2008.   They list a "specific" price $28,695.00    and
>$32,995.00 respectively and $29,750.00 for the Ford Ranger edition.
>They
>list the options package, although the specific details on the
>Lithium-polymer pack is lacking.  So that is why I sent the website a
>query
>and recieved their response the next day.  It appears from looking at
>prices
>of these vehicles that they are basically $20k conversions with $10K
>Li-Po
>pack with integrated PCM (Protection Control Module).  Its kinda vague
>if
>the standard charger comes with the price and the hi-power charger is
>separate.  Or if both versions of the charge are separate.  Along with
>more
>specific questions about the batteries I'll be querying them on the
>charger
>as well.  Just wondered if anyone else has contacted them on what they
>are
>offering.
>
>  It appears that http://www.ampmobiles.com  and
>http://www.ev-america.com
>will be doing the conversions and are referred to as the source for
>pricing
>and ordering.
>
>But to get to the nitty gritty, its the 24V 200AH  Prismatic and Ploymer
>cells that I'd like to get the information on.  They indicate a 24Kwh
>and
>43Kwh pack will be made available to those with existing lead-acid
>conversions.  Although no definite prices yet their response indicated
>4x -
>5x what a traditional 24kwh lead acid pack would cost.  When NiMH were
>in
>that range I think people were already buying them.  I know everyone
>will be
>hesitant to jump, and so I too will watch and wait.  :-)
>
>Mike,
>Anchorage, Ak.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Tuesday, August 7, 2007 3:31 pm
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] LionEV ~$30k Li- powered conversions
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
>
> > my main concern is the lack of specifics.
> > specific car, specs and specific price
> >
> > if they make too many then give examples. I also got the impression
> > that
> > they were not ready yet
> >
> > Dan
> >
> > MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> > > No one commented on these guys a while back.
> > > http://www.lionev.com/
> > >
> > > Li-Po powered cars in the $30k range.
> > > Prismatic cells that put out 2100 amps :-O
> > >
> > > I queried the website as well, to see what portion of the cost
> > was in batteries and got this response:  its basically a $20k car
> > with ~$10K in lithium polymer batteries by Hypercell.  Anyone know
> > of these cells?
> > >
> > > Mike,
> > > Anchorage, Ak.
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 07:25:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Series Parallel Configuration Question
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Hey Joe

Series /parallel refers to the electrical wiring of
the motors and not their position.  What you've drawn
is how the motors are setup "in line", but the motors
can be used side by side also as in Otmar's Calif
Poppy.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric


--- Joe Plumer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Series Parallel Configuration Question:
> 
> I'm not clear on quite how this is done.  Are the
> motors attached end to end 
> to
> accomplish this?  That's the picture I have in my
> mind.
> 
> So it looks like:
> _____   ______   _
> |_____|-|_____|-<_ (rear end)
> 
> Is that correct?
> 
> Thanks for this clarification.
> 
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Tease your brain--play Clink! Win cool prizes! 
>
http://club.live.com/clink.aspx?icid=clink_hotmailtextlink2
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 



       
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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 09:35:07 -0500
From: "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking for a Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=original

What am I missing here?  Looks to me like you're considering a big buck dual 
motor and high current controller setup just to get decent acceleration, 
when a transmission would be a much more effective solution by getting the 
motor RPM up to where the motor load is a better match for the batteries. 
What would this look like off the line with a modest 3 to 1 first gear 
reduction in there?  Three times the torque at the rear wheels for the cost 
of a bone yard trans?  Then what would the acceleration be with a 1K Zilla 
and at least AGM's? I'm really having a hard time understanding the appeal 
of running a DC motor without a transmission for anything short of a super 
light weight lithium powered dragster.  I've got to be missing something.

Marty

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 8:31 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking for a Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.


> You would be happier with 2 8" than 1 9" I think.
>
> assuming you have a typical 3.55:1 and 24" dia tire (840 rotations per 
> mile)
>
>    the 840rpm for 60mph is ony 3k on the motor so speed is good, but...
>    assuming 2500lb finished weight 1200lb.ft of torque is needed for
> 1/2 g launch (rather anemic)
>    1200/3.55 is 338 lb.ft from the motor. or over 1000 amps in the
> motor loop
>
>    so .7G launch (brisk) is out of the question with this rear end
>
>    ok consider a 4.11:1 3500 rpm at 60
>    1/2G  291 lb.ft right at 900Amps, ok zilla will do this for a few
> seconds.
>    .7G is  425lb.ft again to many amps
>
> So either you need a rather non-standard rear end ratio of about 6:1
> or two motors to start off the line,




------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 08:45:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mick Longley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Modified alternator for use in EV
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Hi Frank,
Thanks for the info, follow this link to find out how to modify an alternator 
to put out more than 13-14Vdc or AC if you prefer.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/t.molnar/

What would be more efficient to charge the traction pack - AC into the charger 
or DC directly into the pack?

Mick


----- Original Message ----
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 05:52:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Modified alternator for use in EV
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hi Mick,

Maybe someone else replied and I missed it - but I believe that as long
 as the electric motor is still connected physically to the rest of the
 drivetrain it will spin anything connected to it via chain or
 coupling.  The motor itself will freewheel i.e. offer no resistance other than
 minimal bearing resistance, windage, etc. but would still drive an
 alternator or other accessory.

Can you post details on your alternator conversion?  There's several
 folks here who regen into their 12 volt accessory battery or run other
 accessories but regenning into the traction pack has lots of advantages
 that I can see (and is an idea that I'm exploring as well).

Frank



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 11:47:07 -0400
From: "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TS chemistry Was A123 chem
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=original

My question is, why are you tapering on discharge? Most tests aren't done 
that way.  Could trying to get every last bit at the end maybe hurt their 
life?


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] TS chemistry Was A123 chem


I am getting %84  to 87 % KWhr Efficiency.
Most of the error is in the 40 feet of #4 cable.

This about 1/2 the losses that the PbLa had.

The regs work about 180 seconds at the top of the charge cycle.
They limit the charge votlage and dissapate acouple of watts.
Literally the Reg's heat sink get maybe 10 Deg F over ambient.
In this taper state, the first Reg kicks on and with in 3 minutes the last
kicks on, Then the first drops off as the charge current tapers.
The total taper is about 2 amphours and is done in about 6 minutes. The
taper is from 40 amps to 5 amps while holding the Regs on. The top limit is
set to 4.01 volts.. to try to NOT take them any higher than needed. The
added capacity from 4.01 to 4.25 volts is unmeasureable.
I am now at cycle 80 + heading to 100. I am extracting 34.5 to 35.2 amphours
pre cycle.

I dropped back to a 3.01 volt floor because the 3.11 floor interferd with
the main Capacity plataue. You get the same energy out, But at a lower
amperage. Staying over 2.80 keep you from falling off the end of charge
curve cliff. Dropping off the cliff.. gets you 38 to 39 amphours, or basicly
%100 DOD + or - about 5%. Yea I have gotten 105%... sucking to 2.50 volts
and a 2 amp taper down to point.. too mich stress on the cell I believe.

Rich Rudman






------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 12:07:32 -0400
From: "Matt Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking for a Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"

Hey everyone,

There is something really elegant about the two motor solution but you're
right, Marty -- a single 9" motor with Z1K and transmission fits the bill
here, too. For Joule Injected I went with the Z2K and two inline Warp 9s and
I'm very happy with it. One of my goals was to eliminate the potential
failure point of the transmission for drag racing. That was accomplished,
but now I have the very real (already occurred) failure point of the
coupling. More specifically, the keystock likes to shear in two. Of course
this can be remedied, but not without something like a splined interface
between the two motors and also back to the driveshaft. I see Mike already
mentioned the TransWarp9, but I don't believe the tailshaft comes splined,
too.

No doubt about it, it's costly to go direct drive with high amps:
  $1,700 for additional motor (depending on what you get)
  $2,000 premium for upgrade to Z2K
  $350 for reversing contactor pair
  $350 (might as well throw in the series/parallel contactor!)

That's $4,400 so far, as compared to the cost of a Z1K with single 9". Of
course you need to factor in the cost of the tranny and adapter plate.
Neither option is a drop in, so there are other costs as well.

If you do decide to go with the dual motor setup, this was the way I wired
them for series/parallel and single motor reverse:
http://www.jouleinjected.com/joule-injected-single-rev-circuit.pdf
I just put this up on the site, since it was being discussed recently. 

The '29 Ford looks like a fun project! Keep us posted on what you decide to
do.

Matt Graham
300V Nissan 240SX "Joule Injected"
http://www.jouleinjected.com

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Marty Hewes
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 10:35 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking for a Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.

What am I missing here?  Looks to me like you're considering a big buck dual

motor and high current controller setup just to get decent acceleration, 
when a transmission would be a much more effective solution by getting the 
motor RPM up to where the motor load is a better match for the batteries. 
What would this look like off the line with a modest 3 to 1 first gear 
reduction in there?  Three times the torque at the rear wheels for the cost 
of a bone yard trans?  Then what would the acceleration be with a 1K Zilla 
and at least AGM's? I'm really having a hard time understanding the appeal 
of running a DC motor without a transmission for anything short of a super 
light weight lithium powered dragster.  I've got to be missing something.

Marty

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 8:31 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking for a Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.


> You would be happier with 2 8" than 1 9" I think.
>
> assuming you have a typical 3.55:1 and 24" dia tire (840 rotations per 
> mile)
>
>    the 840rpm for 60mph is ony 3k on the motor so speed is good, but...
>    assuming 2500lb finished weight 1200lb.ft of torque is needed for
> 1/2 g launch (rather anemic)
>    1200/3.55 is 338 lb.ft from the motor. or over 1000 amps in the
> motor loop
>
>    so .7G launch (brisk) is out of the question with this rear end
>
>    ok consider a 4.11:1 3500 rpm at 60
>    1/2G  291 lb.ft right at 900Amps, ok zilla will do this for a few
> seconds.
>    .7G is  425lb.ft again to many amps
>
> So either you need a rather non-standard rear end ratio of about 6:1
> or two motors to start off the line,


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------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2007 17:09:33 +0000
From: "Chuck Hays" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 24V E-Bike
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

>From: "Marc Breitman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>The system is probably setup (the motor controller) for 24v only. Same with
>the charger.
>Also..its not really a 24v battery its two 12v batteries so you would have
>to figure out how to mount the extra 12v battery and such.
>Might be easier to start from scratch but i don't know much about the
>system.

Might be talkin' out from under my hat here,
but I see quite a few E-Bikes around my
town. If it's the same thing I'm thinking
of, one of the dealers locally told me that
some people put another battery in the
under-seat "trunk" and do some creative
re-wiring. Don't know any more than that,
though. At least there are some hacks out
there for them, which may turn up using
"E-Bike hack" in a search term.

Chuck

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------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 10:16:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Glenn Saunders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The fate of the volt, who cares?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Don't get me wrong, having an EV or plugin hybrid on the market is a very big 
deal.  That would be the path of least resistance.  What I didn't like about 
the message of Who Killed the Electric Car is the message that the ONLY road to 
EV adoption is through big business--that the solution is to picket them and/or 
pass regulations to coerce them into action.  People can ooh and ah over the 
Volt concept or the $100K Tesla Roadster, but it's just not tangible.  I got 
introduced into the EV conversion scene through watching stuff like Otmar and 
White Zombie on Youtube.  So I think changing perceptions about EVs and finding 
greater acceptance of them can happen from this grass-roots level on up.

----- Original Message ----
> Why wait for deliverance from big business when you can convert an old car
> today?

Not so much "deliverance from big business."  

Not to slight anyone in any way, but people have different priorities.  When I 
was in my 20s and 30s, working on cars was fun.  In middle age, I really 
don't much care for it any more.  Although I still change oil in the ICEs, 
lying 
on my back under a car is a LONG way from being my favorite pastime.  If I 
could buy a nice factory EV that met my needs, I would - and will.  

I don't expect that I'll buy an EV from "big business."  More likely it will 
come 
from a small operation.  It could be something like the Freedom or Sunrise II, 
or maybe the product of a company on the scale of Tesla.  It might be an 
import from a small to medium size company in India, Korea, Japan, or 
China.  It might indeed be from one of the major automakers, but given their 
past performance, I'd put the likelihood of that dead last on the list.






------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 11:01:47 -0700
From: GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] unsubscribe
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"

Oil is not a fuel either. Is is simply a long term carrier of very old 
solar energy stored in oraginic life.

On Mon, 6 Aug 2007 7:53 pm, Simon Turner wrote:
> unsubscribe
> --- MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>  Hydrogen is not a fuel.  It  IS an energy carrier,
>>  or storage medium much as a battery or capacitor..
>>  If the electrons from the storage medium power an
>>  electric motor, then technically it IS an EV.
>>
>>  Maybe we could rename our group the BEVDL, or
>>  Battery Electric Vehicle Discussion List and limit
>>  our arguments to what batteries get the best
>>  performance, or how to maintain them better.   It
>>  seems you are now the one with the closed mind, and
>>  blindly following the mantra of if its not batteries
>>  its not electric, yada yada yada.  I'm not one to
>>  favour the hydrogen hype because it is such an
>>  inefficient form of energy storage.  However to stay
>>  technically correct, but not argue for that side, I
>>  would say the Fuel Cell powered vehicle are EV's if
>>  they power electric motors.
>>
>>
>>
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>  From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>  Date: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 11:39 am
>>  Subject: Re: Electric car vies for speed record (500
>>  kph)
>>  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>  > Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G wrote:
>>  > > Why do you say it is NOT an electric vehicle?  I
>>  don't see a gas
>>  > engine> of any type on there.  A fuel cell
>>  generates ELECTRICITY
>>  > and the primary
>>  > > drive mechanism is an ELECTRIC Motor.  Just
>>  because the fuel is
>>  > hydrogen> doesn't mean it is not electric.  They
>>  are just making it
>>  > aboard instead
>>  > > of charging it externally.
>>  > >
>>  > The hydrogen fuel voids its status as electric in
>>  my book. I would
>>  > say
>>  > that a strict EV must be powered by an electrical
>>  storage such as
>>  > battery or capacitor. if you allow generators such
>>  as fuel cells
>>  > you
>>  > also allow types like the prius which is a gas car
>>  with an electric
>>  > clutch. this is a fuel cell car. hydrogen-electric
>>  if you will.
>>  > like
>>  > diesel-electric trains.
>>  > another way to define an EV might be to require
>>  refueling by an
>>  > electrical connection. again this one would fail
>>  that.
>>  >
>>  > when we are debating victory criteria with ICE
>>  people then
>>  > everything is
>>  > an electric car of course : ) but this is a
>>  hydrogen car. not an EV.
>>  > I would be surprised if the record people will
>>  allow it as a pure
>>  > EV.
>>  > not that batteries couldn't beat it anyway
>>  >
>>  > Dan
>>  >
>>  >
>>
>>
>
>
>
>       
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
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www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming 
and the melting poles.

www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.



------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 13:56:29 -0500
From: "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking for a Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,        "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
        <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=original

Actually I agree that dual motor is a nice solution, that's why I ordered up 
a Zilla with a dual motor switching option.  But I was thinking of dual 8" 
plus a transmission to get some serious acceleration :).  But getting two 
motors tied together appears to be difficult enough to get done, and 
batteries with enough guts to provide the kW are expensive enough, that I 
put that plan off until I build something higher performance than my Jeep. I 
picked up a single 9" for it.  I briefly considered two motors in the Jeep, 
one direct drive to the front axle, one to the rear, then I wouldn't need to 
tie them together.  With the motors in parallel, it would be pretty cool 
traction control.  If a wheel spun, the RPM of that motor would increase, 
and therefore the current through that motor would drop, giving more to the 
other motor.

Marty

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matt Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking for a Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.


> Hey everyone,
>
> There is something really elegant about the two motor solution but you're
> right, Marty -- a single 9" motor with Z1K and transmission fits the bill
> here, too. For Joule Injected I went with the Z2K and two inline Warp 9s 
> and
> I'm very happy with it. One of my goals was to eliminate the potential
> failure point of the transmission for drag racing. That was accomplished,
> but now I have the very real (already occurred) failure point of the
> coupling. More specifically, the keystock likes to shear in two. Of course
> this can be remedied, but not without something like a splined interface
> between the two motors and also back to the driveshaft. I see Mike already
> mentioned the TransWarp9, but I don't believe the tailshaft comes splined,
> too.
>
> No doubt about it, it's costly to go direct drive with high amps:
>  $1,700 for additional motor (depending on what you get)
>  $2,000 premium for upgrade to Z2K
>  $350 for reversing contactor pair
>  $350 (might as well throw in the series/parallel contactor!)
>
> That's $4,400 so far, as compared to the cost of a Z1K with single 9". Of
> course you need to factor in the cost of the tranny and adapter plate.
> Neither option is a drop in, so there are other costs as well.
>
> If you do decide to go with the dual motor setup, this was the way I wired
> them for series/parallel and single motor reverse:
> http://www.jouleinjected.com/joule-injected-single-rev-circuit.pdf
> I just put this up on the site, since it was being discussed recently.
>
> The '29 Ford looks like a fun project! Keep us posted on what you decide 
> to
> do.
>
> Matt Graham
> 300V Nissan 240SX "Joule Injected"
> http://www.jouleinjected.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
> Behalf
> Of Marty Hewes
> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 10:35 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking for a Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.
>
> What am I missing here?  Looks to me like you're considering a big buck 
> dual
>
> motor and high current controller setup just to get decent acceleration,
> when a transmission would be a much more effective solution by getting the
> motor RPM up to where the motor load is a better match for the batteries.
> What would this look like off the line with a modest 3 to 1 first gear
> reduction in there?  Three times the torque at the rear wheels for the 
> cost
> of a bone yard trans?  Then what would the acceleration be with a 1K Zilla
> and at least AGM's? I'm really having a hard time understanding the appeal
> of running a DC motor without a transmission for anything short of a super
> light weight lithium powered dragster.  I've got to be missing something.
>
> Marty
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 8:31 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking for a Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.
>
>
>> You would be happier with 2 8" than 1 9" I think.
>>
>> assuming you have a typical 3.55:1 and 24" dia tire (840 rotations per
>> mile)
>>
>>    the 840rpm for 60mph is ony 3k on the motor so speed is good, but...
>>    assuming 2500lb finished weight 1200lb.ft of torque is needed for
>> 1/2 g launch (rather anemic)
>>    1200/3.55 is 338 lb.ft from the motor. or over 1000 amps in the
>> motor loop
>>
>>    so .7G launch (brisk) is out of the question with this rear end
>>
>>    ok consider a 4.11:1 3500 rpm at 60
>>    1/2G  291 lb.ft right at 900Amps, ok zilla will do this for a few
>> seconds.
>>    .7G is  425lb.ft again to many amps
>>
>> So either you need a rather non-standard rear end ratio of about 6:1
>> or two motors to start off the line,
>
>
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>
> 




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