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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: John Wayland, Rod Wilde, Rich Rudman it was suppose to be
      hard!! (Dan Frederiksen)
   2. Re: wiring and fusing battery box? (Jeff Major)
   3. Re: John Wayland, Rod Wilde,      Rich Rudman it was suppose to be
      hard!! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
   4. Fw:  GM EV1 (dbd)
   5. BMS and my first battery pack (Grant Clinch)
   6. NEDRA record pages out of date (Chip Gribben)
   7. PHEV article in Oregonian car column (damon henry)
   8. Will a sealed AGM battery work laid on it's side ?? (Grant Clinch)
   9. KillaCycle on Discovery Channel "Eco-Tech" Show on Monday
      (Bill Dube)
  10. Re: BMS and my first battery pack (Timothy Balcer)
  11. Re: Battery MD? Repair/Remanufacture Batteries? (Joseph T. )
  12. Re: GM EV1 (Doug Weathers)
  13. Re: wiring and fusing battery box? (Tehben Dean)
  14. Valence Lithium Batteries in lead acid sizes !! (Grant Clinch)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 16:35:39 +0200
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] John Wayland, Rod Wilde, Rich Rudman it was
        suppose to be hard!!
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

hehe cool. do you have a website on this vehicle as well?
if not what size is the motor? any brand or model name?
any refurbishing done on it?

Dan

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> In a message dated 8/18/2007 4:29:00 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 
>   
>> e, Rich Rudman it was suppose to be hard!! 
>> Date:8/18/2007 4:29:00 AM US Mountain Standard Time
>> From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Reply-to:ev@lists.sjsu.edu
>> To:ev@lists.sjsu.edu
>> Received from Internet: 
>>
>>
>>
>> congrats. what motor and controller?
>> ** Its a xilla controler and a motor I found in the forklift junkyard for 25 
>> dollars.
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>     
>>> My S10 is about 850lbs heavier(then the Zombie),has 40% less battery 
>>>       
>> power(+ 
>>     
>>> only standard hawkers)less aerodynamic, only one motor(that I built up and 
>>>       
>> its 
>>     
>>> far from being tuned in)has all the proper NHRA safety equiptment including 
>>>       
>> a 
>>     
>>> full cage,still has much more battery power and motor power to dial in,has 
>>> only been down the track 7 times in 2 weekends,has about 200 street miles 
>>>       
>> in 3 
>>     
>>> weeks,has been doing service calls almost on a daily basis including today 
>>>       
>> and 
>>     
>>> just Blew through the 100 mph mark.Sorry I did not make the nationals!  100 
>>>       
>> ++ 
>>     
>>> was pretty easy.                          Dennis Berube 
>>>       
>    
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>   



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 08:45:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] wiring and fusing battery box?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1


Hi Tehben,

A few comments inserted.......


--- Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> If I have 3 battery boxes, #1 48v(4 cells), #2 120v
> (10 cells) and #3
> 144v (12 cells)

I think you mean "batteries" where you use "cells".

> Should I wire them so each box is a big battery and
> string them up
> with a return cable? Or should I have each box split
> with the to and
> from, so that there isn't a long return cable?

I'm not clear what you mean.  But I would advise to
figure out cable runs to minimize total cable length
and maximize safety.

> If I fuse each box can I use all fuses rated for
> 312v (should I use
> 400v fuse?) or do the fuses have to be different
> sizes depending on
> where they are in the string?

I recommend a fuse in each battery compartment.  That
way each is protected in case of an incident.  And
each fuse must be rated for the total battery system
voltage and current.

> would it be a good idea to have breakers instead so
> I can break up the
> pack while performing maintenance?

Up to you.  Breakers can be hard to come by or
expensive.  I think Roland mentioned an Anderson
connector.  Using a few of these in the right places
might be a good way to isolate battery boxes for
service.

> With less than 300amp current draw what size cable
> should I use?

Figure your average current and size it a for little
higher than that.  Less than 300?  Would that be 299? 
Could be looking at 2/0 AWG.  And remember, especially
if you have long cable runs, the larger gauge will
have less voltage drop.  If you can afford it and it
fits in, bigger is better.

> Is
> gauge 4 the same as AWG 4?

Yeah, I think so.  AWG stands for American Wire Gauge.
 Most times you see "4 gauge" or "4 AWG".  Which means
the same thing to me.

Hope this helps.

Don't see a lot of action on the old EVDL.  EVerybody
must be at the races.

Jeff M

> 
> Thanks,
> -- 
> Tehben
> '90 Toyota 4x4 Pickup
> 'hElix EV'
> Website: www.helixev.com
> evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225
> 



       
____________________________________________________________________________________
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, 
photos & more. 
http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:59:09 EDT
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] John Wayland, Rod Wilde,    Rich Rudman it was
        suppose to be hard!!
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

In a message dated 8/18/2007 8:37:10 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 
> bj: Re: [EVDL] John Wayland, Rod Wilde, Rich Rudman it was suppose to be 
> hard!! 
> Date:8/18/2007 8:37:10 AM US Mountain Standard Time
> From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Reply-to:ev@lists.sjsu.edu
> To:ev@lists.sjsu.edu
> Received from Internet: 
> 
> 
> 
> hehe cool. do you have a website on this vehicle as well?
> if not what size is the motor? any brand or model name?
> any refurbishing done on it?
> 
> Dan
I do not have a website on it.Its a  almost 13 incher about 13 in long.It 
came out of a 24/36 lift truck.Theres a few of the same mods that are in my 
dragster motor.It does not have a moving brush system yet.I do however 
attribute 
the trucks performance to the special care I build motors with.Theres another 
hotrod being built out there with a couple of my heavly modified motors that 
will really scare the guy when he mashes the pot box.  Dennis   


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 12:04:18 -0500
From: "dbd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Fw:  GM EV1
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Don Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV_Discussion_Group" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Bob Carter"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 5:50 AM
Subject: [EVDL] GM EV1


> Each Friday evening I show my EV's at a local "Cruise In" See
www.coppercitycruisers.org<http://www.coppercitycruisers.org/> &
http://public.orb.com/cccruisers<http://public.orb.com/cccruisers>
>
> Last evening I had an interesting conversation with a gentleman who worked
many years ago at a Florida Saturn Dealership in the parts department. Says
he had the opportunity to drive a GM EV1 He enjoyed driving it. Interesting
comment he made. Claims he was paid a bonus for selling additional parts,
also claimed he lost money (no bonus) as there were no parts required to
replace on the GM EV1 when it came in for service. At most all the EV1
required when serviced was minor brake or alignment work...non of the
typical parts required to keep an ICE engine running  Definitely,  a loss to
the aftermarket parts supplier...EV's just do not require the maintenance
that a typical ICE requires!  I love it!  From the perspective of a car
owner-the basic reason why more EV's should be on the road! From the
perspective of the parts supplier, a definite reason to keep EV's from being
mass produced...............
>
> Don B. Davidson III
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 13:22:07 -0300
From: "Grant Clinch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] BMS and my first battery pack
To: "ev list" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hi all,
Now, is there an off the shelf battery monitoring system that is
configurable to a 48V pack, consisting of 8 12V batteries, and having
two strips of four wired in parallel ??

Do they monitor each individual battery ?

How does one charge such a pack ? that is to say, how do you monitor
the amount of charge going into each battery if you're charging the
whole pack ?

Regards
Grant



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:40:03 -0400
From: Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] NEDRA record pages out of date
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed

Roderick Wilde and I created the 100 mph Club a few years ago to  
recognize the "drivers" who break 100 mph and to "Freeze Frame" that  
moment in history.

We don't change the "100 mph Hour Club" entries once someone breaks  
100 mph and makes it into the Club.

Reason being. That first time you hit 100 mph in the quarter mile is  
a historical moment. Every driver who breaks 100 mph remembers it  
just like any other memorable event that takes place in their life.  
So it is designed to capture that moment in History forever. This is  
why it's called the Roger Hedlund 100 mph Club.

The Record Page on the other hand continually changes according to  
who breaks the record. This is what keeps people building vehicles  
and making improvements. It is designed to push the envelope. The 100  
mph Club is designed to capture that moment in History and to  
recognize the drivers for their skills.

It will loose its appeal and worse yet it's historical significance  
if we continually change the times and then it just becomes another  
version of the Records page.

The media often references this page when they write stories about  
when a driver or owner first broke into the 100's with their vehicles.

Why erase history?

Chip Gribben
NEDRA PR Director and Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com


On Aug 18, 2007, at 10:33 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Message: 23
> Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 12:42:18 +0200
> From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [EVDL] NEDRA record pages out of date
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> http://www.nedra.com/150mph_club.html
>
> why haven't these been updated with the latest killacycle and white
> zombie records?
>
> Dan



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 17:05:27 +0000
From: damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] PHEV article in Oregonian car column
To: EV List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


I thought this was an interesting article in this mornings Oregonian.  It is a 
weekly car Q & A column. 
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregonian/stories/index.ssf?/base/automotive/1187384146246530.xml&coll=7
 damon
_________________________________________________________________
News, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com. Get it now!
http://www.live.com/getstarted.aspx

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 14:15:06 -0300
From: "Grant Clinch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Will a sealed AGM battery work laid on it's side ??
To: "ev list" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hi All,
Will a sealed AGM battery work laid on it's side ?
Thanks
Grant



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:14:55 -0600
From: Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] KillaCycle on Discovery Channel "Eco-Tech" Show on
        Monday
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

The first show in the series is called "Future Fuels" and they say 
the KillaCycle will appear in it.

Eco-Tech, a green science series - premieres this Monday, Aug 20th on 
the Discovery Science Channel.  Show times vary depending on your 
service and where you live.

Bill Dube'  



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 13:43:00 -0400
From: "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] BMS and my first battery pack
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

http://www.manzanitamicro.com/mk3reg.htm

On 8/18/07, Grant Clinch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
> Now, is there an off the shelf battery monitoring system that is
> configurable to a 48V pack, consisting of 8 12V batteries, and having
> two strips of four wired in parallel ??
>
> Do they monitor each individual battery ?
>
> How does one charge such a pack ? that is to say, how do you monitor
> the amount of charge going into each battery if you're charging the
> whole pack ?
>
> Regards
> Grant
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 13:48:32 -0400
From: "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Battery MD? Repair/Remanufacture Batteries?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Is this cheaper than replacing batteries? If so, why don't people take
batteries to battery shops to have them be "repaired"?

On 8/18/07, Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Joseph,
>
> Visit a battery shop, that does do repair, and see how it is done.  Most of
> these batteries are separate cells or call jars batteries, where the tops
> and grids can slide right out of the jar.  A lot of the industrial standby,
> float and fork lift batteries and industrial electric vehicle batteries are
> done this way.
>
> The only simple repair that can be done by a person on a 6,8 or 12 volt
> battery is to install a new post on the battery that has been melted off,
> broken or been squeeze down to much for the battery clamp to tighten.
> Smooth off the top of the post down to it base and drill a 1/4 inch hole for
> a 5/16-18 tap and just screw in a repair post that you can get at a auto
> parts store.
>
> Another method, is if you happen to have a shop with all the equipment, is
> narrow down the damage post with a 5/8 inch diameter plug cutter, the type
> that is use for making wood plugs.
>
> Place a taper steel post mold, that you can either purchase or make with a
> lathe or large drill press using a taper cutter.
>
> Place the battery on a steel top table and use a magnetic stand that clamps
> down on the table and pushes the taper steel post mold down on tight on the
> battery post base, so the molded lead you applied will not leak out. I will
> also place layers of wet paper towels around the post I am working on.
>
> You should have at least a 1500 CFM fan in the ceiling with a drop down
> hose, that is place against the work you are doing.
>
> Using a mini torch with a very long hot thin flame, you start to melt the
> post lead starting at the bottom of the post, and at the same time apply
> 100% lead that you can get in rolls like solder comes in.  You can get this
> 100% lead rolls from a fishing and tackle store, which are for making line
> weights or you can get lead sticks from a battery repair shop.
>
> As the lead post melts keep rotating the flame around the post adding
> more lead and then you finish with a smooth bottom on top.
>
> Now that you are done with that one, there is about 100 or more to go.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 10:55 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] Battery MD? Repair/Remanufacture Batteries?
>
>
> > I came across Battery Md, who apparently has done service for GM, Ford
> > , and Chrysler regarding battery packs in their (now almost all
> > crushed) EVs.
> >
> > They also say that they can remanufacture/repair batteries. How is
> > this possible? How can you "repair" a battery?
> >
> > Their slogan is "There is no such thing as a bad battery...they are
> > just misunderstood." Is this slogan accurate by any means?
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:15:34 -0600
From: Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] GM EV1
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed


On Aug 18, 2007, at 4:50 AM, Don Davidson wrote:

>  At most all the EV1 required when serviced was minor brake or 
> alignment work...non of the typical parts required to keep an ICE 
> engine running  Definitely,  a loss to the aftermarket parts 
> supplier...EV's just do not require the maintenance that a typical ICE 
> requires!

Well, no, but if the EV1 had had the time, perhaps some very expensive 
parts would have begun to fail.  The EV1 was chock full of expensive 
parts.

And sometimes the automakers actually do start using parts that don't 
need to be replaced as often.  Such as LED tail lights.

> I love it!  From the perspective of a car owner-the basic reason why 
> more EV's should be on the road! From the perspective of the parts 
> supplier, a definite reason to keep EV's from being mass 
> produced...............

Or, a definite reason to get a bunch of them on the roads and keep them 
running until the battery pack needs to be replaced :)

Others (such as "EV Basher" Mark Brueggeman) have pointed out that EV 
conversions still have maintenance costs.  He notes that the increased 
load of batteries shortens the life of the chassis and brakes.  Acid 
from lead-acid batteries corrodes things.  There's (usually) still a 
transmission, and it's subjected to loads it wasn't designed for.  Etc, 
etc.

Anyway, at the risk of veering off-topic, it looks to me like GM wanted 
the EV1 to be full of expensive, proprietary parts, so the buyers would 
be locked into using GM for service and support.  I think they expected 
to make a lot of money on the EV1.

I agree with you - EVs have fewer systems, and they generally require 
less maintenance than the corresponding system in an ICE.  But it would 
be a mistake to ignore the costs that definitely do exist, or to claim 
that the long-term costs are less than that associated with a modern 
ICE in advance of actually running the numbers.

Has someone run the numbers?  Say, compared a converted late-model 
Honda to the identical car in ICE trim, over a span of a few years (or 
miles)?  If you run a cost-per-mile comparison, the EV wouldn't look so 
good, I bet.  They see so few miles by comparison to their ICE 
brethren.

How exactly would you go about making a fair comparison?

>
> Don B. Davidson III
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com/



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 10:55:24 -0800
From: "Tehben Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] wiring and fusing battery box?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

> > If I have 3 battery boxes, #1 48v(4 cells), #2 120v
> > (10 cells) and #3
> > 144v (12 cells)
>
> I think you mean "batteries" where you use "cells".

Yep, sorry :)

>
> > Should I wire them so each box is a big battery and
> > string them up
> > with a return cable? Or should I have each box split
> > with the to and
> > from, so that there isn't a long return cable?
>
> I'm not clear what you mean.  But I would advise to
> figure out cable runs to minimize total cable length
> and maximize safety.

Ok, ummm let me try to phrase that better.
If I have 3 boxes and treat them like 3 batteries and string them up
in series I will have the negative cable left over at the back of the
truck. WHich means a long run back to the controller.
But If I spit the two front boxes into 2 groups of batteries and
string one group in each box on the way to the rear box and then
string the other group on the way back to the controller I won't have
the long run.
>
> > If I fuse each box can I use all fuses rated for
> > 312v (should I use
> > 400v fuse?) or do the fuses have to be different
> > sizes depending on
> > where they are in the string?
>
> I recommend a fuse in each battery compartment.  That
> way each is protected in case of an incident.  And
> each fuse must be rated for the total battery system
> voltage and current.

So if I have a 48v battery and a 120v battery connected in series I
would use the same fuse for each box?

>
> > would it be a good idea to have breakers instead so
> > I can break up the
> > pack while performing maintenance?
>
> Up to you.  Breakers can be hard to come by or
> expensive.  I think Roland mentioned an Anderson
> connector.  Using a few of these in the right places
> might be a good way to isolate battery boxes for
> service.

Do you have to worry about arcing when you plug and unplug anderson connectors?

>
> > With less than 300amp current draw what size cable
> > should I use?
>
> Figure your average current and size it a for little
> higher than that.  Less than 300?  Would that be 299?
> Could be looking at 2/0 AWG.  And remember, especially
> if you have long cable runs, the larger gauge will
> have less voltage drop.  If you can afford it and it
> fits in, bigger is better.

Well my controller says it has 282 max amp in. But with a heater and stuff...

> > Is
> > gauge 4 the same as AWG 4?
>
> Yeah, I think so.  AWG stands for American Wire Gauge.
>  Most times you see "4 gauge" or "4 AWG".  Which means
> the same thing to me.



-- 
Tehben
'90 Toyota 4x4 Pickup
'hElix EV'
Website: www.helixev.com
evalbum: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1225



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 15:57:42 -0300
From: "Grant Clinch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Valence Lithium Batteries in lead acid sizes !!
To: "ev list" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hi All,
What's the deal with Valence Technology ?
Will they sell to Joe public ? or are they wholesale only ?

Grant



------------------------------

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EV@lists.sjsu.edu
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