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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Why doesn't regen work with DC (Roger Stockton)
   2. kW meter socket? (mike golub)
   3. Re: article: Miles Automotive All-Electric Four-Door Sedan,       I
      don't think so. (Morgan LaMoore)
   4. Re: How to equalize charge Trojan T-125s? (Roland Wiench)
   5. Re: How to equalize charge Trojan T-125s? (Roger Stockton)
   6. Re: * Re:  How to equalize charge Trojan T-125s? (Roger Stockton)
   7. Re: Tyco LEV200 Series contactor (MIKE WILLMON)
   8. Re: kW meter socket? (Zeke Yewdall)
   9. Re: Why doesn't regen work with DC (Jeff Major)
  10. Gizmo Gearing (Tom Gocze)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 10:57:11 -0700
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why doesn't regen work with DC
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
        <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="US-ASCII"

Peter VanDerWal wrote: 

> Actualy you can regen with a series motor too, it's just 
> complicated to control and has some issues with brush
> advance, etc.

I'd just like to clarify here that series motors don't have brush issues
with regen because they are series motors, but rather because most of us
use the cheapest series motors we can find, and these do not include the
interpole windings (and possibly other compensating windings) that all
sepex motors MUST have to avoid brush arcing during regen.  There are
some series DC motors that include interpoles (e.g. some Kostov and GE
motors), and these can be used for regen without brush issues.

I'm only aware of one controller for series DC motors that includes
regen capability that is available new, and that is the Zapi.  Curtis
made the 1221R, but I don't believe it is offered anymore.  (Someone
suggested it was never offered in North America, but I believe this is
false as I know that Canadian Electric Vehicles had some a few years
back.)

As Peter notes, the roundtrip efficiency (i.e. the amount of electrical
energy that actaully makes it back into the battery) is not particularly
high, and since only part of the energy used to accelerate (or climb a
hill) can be recovered, the increase in range is typically low while the
additional cost of a series DC regen controller can be significant.
However, I think that if the most commonly used series motors (ADC,
Warp) were available with interpoles far more people would be using
regen.

Cheers,

Roger.



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 11:12:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] kW meter socket?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

My utility company gave me a used kW meter.

It's nice and light with the round plastic housing,
and the four blades. It is 120volts.

However, is there a light indoor meter socket
available.

Home Depot had the 125Amp Outdoor Meter socket for
$50...but it is heavy!

I want to do this right.

thanks



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:26:45 -0500
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] article: Miles Automotive All-Electric Four-Door
        Sedan,  I don't think so.
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Or it's possible that it has a liquid cooled engine and electronics.

Maybe they didn't want to get rid of the front grill because of the cosmetic
effects on consumers. People don't want a funny-looking car; changing car
styling in such a drastic way is probably too big of a risk for companies.

Of course, it's possible that it's faked, but that would be revealed when
you took it for a test drive. You couldn't fool people with it; if it's
faked, then it's nothing more than a publicity stunt. I think it's real,
though, or at least as real as the Chevy Volt.

-Morgan

On 8/29/07, Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Wujek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 6:26 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] article: Miles Automotive All-Electric Four-Door Sedan
>
>
> >
> > A little more information on what Miles will be selling in the U.S.:
> >
> >
> http://www.slashgear.com/miles-automotive-all-electric-four-door-sedan-286984.php
> >
> > -- Hi Paul an' EVerybody;
>
>     Nice car. But WHY does it have a full radiater? Grill, all that? You
> SHOULD fair the head end off clean! No grill or open to the air thing. I
> think it was a gas car that they are trying top pass off as an
> Electric.Not
> a bad looking car, just 'ain't Electric!
>
>     Seeya, looking for cars miles ahead.
>
>     Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 12:26:14 -0600
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] How to equalize charge Trojan T-125s?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

Yes, the concentration of the acid is higher at the bottom of the battery 
after you let the battery set for some time.  These plates are about 1/8 
inch thick for a 250 ah battery and about 3/16 inch thick for a 300 ah 
battery.

It takes some time for the electrolyte to go in deep into a new battery 
grid, because it may be pasted over like shingles.  Charging and discharging 
will open these surfaces, thus getting closer to the AH rating of the 
battery.

When the Trojan T-145's first came out, they were rated at 245 AH, now after 
several test discharges and charges, Trojan modified the ampere-hour to 260 
AH.

Some cranking type of auto batteries are very thin with a lot more surface 
area which may be a higher cranking amp.  After several seconds of cranking, 
they could depleted all the surface charge all at once, which makes them 
great if you only want to travel 1340 feet.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Deanne Mott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] How to equalize charge Trojan T-125s?


> Roland,
>
> This is interesting stuff too.  I have a couple questions for you:
>
> On 8/29/07, Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Could be several things, the first one is the defusing time that the 
> > battery
> > takes to recover the acid deep inside the negative plates after you 
> > quickly
> > pull the surface charge off the grids.
>
> What do you mean exactly by "deep acid"?  I would have thought the
> concentration of the acid would be higher at the bottom of the
> battery, but do you mean here inside the plates?  I don't picture the
> plates very thick, but I've never seen the inside of a battery.
>
> > First clean the batteries and do a very slow equalization charge after 
> > you
> > do a normal charge.  The equalization charge ampere may have to be as 
> > low as
> > 2 to 4 amps for about 2 weeks!
>
> Seriously, an equalization charge of 2 weeks?  How do I know when to
> stop charging?  I would figure on not having any water left at all in
> the battery!  I'd like to know how you do this seems tricky.
>
> Thanks - De
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 11:30:02 -0700
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] How to equalize charge Trojan T-125s?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="US-ASCII"

Steven Ciciora wrote: 

> My truck has been acting weirdly.  Voltage sagging way
> more than it should.
[...]
> while drawing about 15 amps off the pack, checked
> voltages again, but still all pretty close to each
> other.

I think you may need to monitor the module voltages while under more
significant load to find the suspect modules/cells.  Unless you've got
something homebrewed, the PakTrakr is a readily available,
reasonably-priced plug and play system that will do the job.  It's main
limitations are the 0.1V resolution (a bit low for 12V modules, but not
too bad for your 6Vers), and that even when equipped with the optional
current sensor it does not track Ah (so don't get rid of your E-meter
yet! ;^).

> Near the end of charge, I was
> inspired to check voltages again, and most were at
> about 8.1V (a bit high),

8.1V = 2.7V/cell this is a normal finish voltage.  What current were you
running into the pack at this point?

> 6 batteries, interestingly enough, all in the same
> battery box, [...] were reading more like 7.5V.

7.5V = 2.5V/cell, a bit low for a finish voltage.

Could this box of batteries be at a different temp than the others?  If
there were a bad cell that heated significantly during driving and
warmed its neighbours, or if this box is under the hood and subject to
different cooling/heating than the batteries in back of the truck you
might see voltage and/or behaviour differences.

> So I'm goiing to try to indiviually charge these 6
> T125s.
> 
> I've got a 7.5V, 70A adjustable voltage/current power
> supply, that I think goes up a bit higher in voltage. 
> If so, I'll equalize each of those 6 batteries
> individually.  If not, I've got some other options,
> like a 50V 20A sorensen power supply.

You've got a PFCxx charger, fer Pete's sakes!  You could just wind the
voltage down to that for a 36V pack and charge this box individually
after charging the entire string.

I would not charge these six individually and then charge the entire
string, as that will significantly overcharge these six and possibly
undercharge the rest.

My suggestion is to charge normally, then set your PFCxx for 5-10A and
perhaps 2.8V/cell (or just wind the voltage up nearer 3V/cell so it
doesn't limit) and let the entire pack continue charging for another
couple of hours.  Ideally, you want to keep checking the pack voltage
(better still, check each module voltage) at 30min or 60min intervals
and keep charging until the voltages remain essentially steady over 2-3
consecutive observations.

> I imagine it would be "best" to keep charging until
> the specific gravity of each cell is the same,

In a perfect world, perhaps, but in the real world you aren't ever going
to get every cell in your pack to exactly the same SG.  If you wanted to
charge based on SG, what you want to do is continue charging until the
SG quite rising; that is, each cell has charged as fully as it is going
to.  Problem is that SG lags voltage during charge, so you might be able
to use this approach for the equalise, but it would be difficult to use
as a means of terminating the normal charge cycle.

> but for some reason, I'm not very good at getting
> consistant results from my (temperature compensated)
> refractometer.

What device are you using?  Unless the SGs really are still changing
(i.e. the batteries are on charge), you should be getting consistent
results from one observation to the next.  Consistency of the readings
is one of the reasons I much prefer my refractometers over either float
or bulb type hydrometers.

Something to bear in mind is that some of the temperature compensated
refractometers assume that the electrolyte sample is at the same temp as
the refractometer; they don't actually measure the sample temp.  If the
sample is small and you allow time for it to warm/cool to the
refractometer temp, and the refractometer is already about the temp of
the electrolyte, then it works pretty well.  If you bring the
refractometer outside from an airconditioned or otherwise cool ambient
and start measuring warm electrolyte (or vice versa) you could get
varying readings as the refractometer and electrolyte temperatures get
nearer.  I try to keep the refractometer near the batteries so that
their temps are as similar as possible when I start taking readings.

Cheers,

Roger.



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 11:41:04 -0700
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] * Re:  How to equalize charge Trojan T-125s?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="US-ASCII"

Deanne Mott wrote: 

> The Soneil supposedly has a desulphating phase, but it never went into
> it (indicated by blinking LED) probably because the batteries were
> already mostly charged by the main pack charger.  I'm not sure if
> desulphating works anyways?

The desulphating phase is only intended to get the batteries to accept
charge sufficiently well that the charger can proceed to charge normally
rather than faulting out.

> It might be awhile before I download data.  I spent a little time on
> it already and between Windoze hyperterminal, the Paktrakr, and a
> serial-USB cable/converter I'm not getting something to communicate.
> I got the Paktrakr option that includes 4G of flash memory that can
> save a few hours of data (one poll of everything per second.)

I believe you mean 2Mb, not 4Gb (though 4Gb would be nice ;^).

The data logging serial interface (ES1R) communicates at 56k4, 8N1, no
flow control while the standard serial interface (ES1) communicates at
19k2, 8N1, no flow control; are you using the right settings for your
device?

Also, you might want to check with the Ken Hall if all else fails since
they did ship some of the devices with an incorrect resistor value such
that it may not communicate properly with every PC even though every
interface continued to communicate with the PC used in PakTrakr
production.  (Both of our ES1Rs had this problem and were returned to
PakTrakr/Ken for updating.)

Cheers,

Roger.



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 10:43:34 -0800
From: MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tyco LEV200 Series contactor
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

http://www.evsource.com/tls_relays.php

I use one of these in my truck and its great for locating inside the battery 
box because the contacts are sealed.

----- Original Message -----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 6:41 am
Subject: [EVDL] Tyco LEV200 Series contactor
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu

> 
> 
> >From reading through specs of various DC contactors this appears 
> to be an excellent
> one for EV use. Could someone guide me to a good vendor carrying 
> this model at a
> good price? Thanks
> JJ
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 12:44:27 -0600
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] kW meter socket?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hialeah meter company.
http://www.hialeahmeter.com/
$10.50 + shipping

On 8/29/07, mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My utility company gave me a used kW meter.
>
> It's nice and light with the round plastic housing,
> and the four blades. It is 120volt
http://www.hialeahmeter.com/s.
>
> However, is there a light indoor meter socket
> available.
>
> Home Depot had the 125Amp Outdoor Meter socket for
> $50...but it is heavy!
>
> I want to do this right.
>
> thanks
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 11:50:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why doesn't regen work with DC
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1


Hi Guys,

Peter said "issues with brush advance".  Roger says no
issues with brushes.  Well, I think they're both
right.  Most of the series wound motors used for EV
conversions do not have interpoles.  Primarily because
they are (or were) low voltage forklift motors,
bidirectional, brushes on neutral.  When run at
several times design voltage in battery powered cars,
the brushes are advanced to facilitate commutation at
the high voltage.  Once shifted for motoring, the
brushes are shifted in the wrong direction for
generator action.  So regeneration with an advanced
brush motor would arc to beat the band.

Now, if the EVers were using interpole series wound
motors, they would not need to advance the brushes and
generator commutation would be acceptable.  But,
interpole motors cost more, and can be larger and
heavier than non-interpole motors.  And, rarely seen
in frame sizes below 10 inch.  Possible, sure.  I've
seen them.  They go to 2 pole designs.  Which can
bring a whole new set of issues.  

Even if interpole series motors were available for
EVers, the regen controls would still be difficult,
complex, more costly and I suspect unreliable.  By the
time you throw all that into the regen equation, go
AC.  Reliable and no sparking.

Jeff M

--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Peter VanDerWal wrote: 
> 
> > Actualy you can regen with a series motor too,
> it's just 
> > complicated to control and has some issues with
> brush
> > advance, etc.
> 
> I'd just like to clarify here that series motors
> don't have brush issues
> with regen because they are series motors, but
> rather because most of us
> use the cheapest series motors we can find, and
> these do not include the
> interpole windings (and possibly other compensating
> windings) that all
> sepex motors MUST have to avoid brush arcing during
> regen.  There are
> some series DC motors that include interpoles (e.g.
> some Kostov and GE
> motors), and these can be used for regen without
> brush issues.
> 
> I'm only aware of one controller for series DC
> motors that includes
> regen capability that is available new, and that is
> the Zapi.  Curtis
> made the 1221R, but I don't believe it is offered
> anymore.  (Someone
> suggested it was never offered in North America, but
> I believe this is
> false as I know that Canadian Electric Vehicles had
> some a few years
> back.)
> 
> As Peter notes, the roundtrip efficiency (i.e. the
> amount of electrical
> energy that actaully makes it back into the battery)
> is not particularly
> high, and since only part of the energy used to
> accelerate (or climb a
> hill) can be recovered, the increase in range is
> typically low while the
> additional cost of a series DC regen controller can
> be significant.
> However, I think that if the most commonly used
> series motors (ADC,
> Warp) were available with interpoles far more people
> would be using
> regen.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Roger.
> 
>


       
____________________________________________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:45:12 -0400
From: Tom Gocze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Gizmo Gearing
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed

I had a a couple Gizmos. One was quite early and the other was fairly  
recent. They both were geared at about 6:1.
They both seemed to have the right balance for starting and running  
at top speed (~40mph).
Tom



------------------------------

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