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Today's Topics:

   1. Subaru conversion? (Jim Coate)
   2. Re: Electric Sun Buggy (Jeff Shanab)
   3. Re: * Re: Electric Sun Buggy (Jeff Shanab)
   4. Re: 3178 lb.S10 runs in 12s, Sounds like fun! (Bob Rice)
   5. Re: A123 Battery Feasibility (Timothy Balcer)
   6. Re: Test Drive Motor Stink ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
   7. Re: BLDC control design (Lee Hart)
   8. Re: Motor wish list (Lee Hart)
   9. Re: 3178 lb.S10 runs in 12s, Sounds like fun!
      ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
  10. Re: Test Drive Motor Stink (Lee Hart)
  11. Re: Motor wish list (Lee Hart)
  12. Re: * Re: Electric Sun Buggy (Bob Rice)
  13. Re: Electric Sun Buggy (Lock Hughes)
  14. Re: A123 Battery Feasibility (Ben)
  15. Re: * Re: Electric Sun Buggy (dale henderson)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 10:02:00 -0400
From: Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Subaru conversion?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

I seem to recall relatively recent talk of folks converting Subarus, yet 
I can't find any examples in the EV Album or with Google, etc.

So... has anyone converted a "modern" Subaru (ie Forester, etc)?


-- 
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1997 Solectria Force
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
http://www.electrictractorstore.com



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 08:14:37 -0700
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric Sun Buggy
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Don't swap packs, swap buggies. I think the technology is getting close
for this to become more feasable in the near future.


I would think that an option would be to start with 2 lithium-ion
powered AC buggies with low gearing and a Lead acid dumppack. The regen
is probably a big deal here and we don't want to sand blast commutators.

If the trips are out and back maybe a "rest stop" at the other end where
the people swap buggies and a chargeing station at each.
They are always driving from charger to charger, they get out to have a
snack and drinks and get back in a charged buggy. This reduces the
charge/discharge time to 1 hour.

I am sure that there are a few people who would appreciate the alternative.

The dump pack could start with large capacity golf cart floodies and
transition to an underground bunker of used submarine batteries or the
25 year tubular plate lead acid standby batteries for long run cost
effectiveness.

I assume this is a high weekend use and low weekday use thing? The
shaded structure would of course be covered with solar. What would be
interesting is if the dump pack could store a weekends worth of charge
during the week and dispense it during the weekend.

Are these 1,2 or 4 seaters? Maybe the electric is just 1 or 2 seaters.



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 08:23:02 -0700
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] * Re: Electric Sun Buggy
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Some of us also associate the whine of gears with high power sports cars
:-) I think a straight cut gearreduction would both be more efficient
and provide the feedback people are looking for.



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 11:23:53 -0400
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 3178 lb.S10 runs in 12s, Sounds like fun!
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=original


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 3178 lb.S10 runs in 12s


>I thought my S10 would be a little lighter but an official weight of 3178 
>+-
> 1.5lbs without me!!With me 3354 lbs.Well it is a service truck, daily 
> driver.
> The 13in. x 13in. 24/36 volt traction motor put my S 10 in the 12s.It 
> kinda
> slow in the 1st 1/8 mile but pulls like a freight train at the top end. 
> All its
> runs were well over 100mph with almost bracket race close ets.the best 
> being a
> 12.76 at almost 106mph.This was again almost a third of a second quicker 
> than
> last week. This is the 13th time down the qt. mile and still taking off 
> big
> chunks of time. We did have a lot of wind and dust (side and front) to 
> contend
> with being this is still our monsoon season. This improvement in 
> performance
> did not include adjusting the zilla to the remaining power left in the
> batteries but came as the result of a smaller tire. So there may be still 
> surprise
> ETS. left in this heavy truck. This truck has only 30 26ah lead batteries 
> in the
> drive system.
>
>                     The motor is performing great, no sign of arcing, a
> beautiful golden tan communator.It must be all the motor homework.  I 
> still have
> to add weight though to be legal in the 900lb? lighter zombies nedra 
> record
> catorgy.The truck still needs a headliner!             Dennis Berube
> _
__    Hi Dennis;

     Wow! Super nice job!! Watch out for that headliner! Could add several 
pounds to the weight<g>! I see a Zoombie, va. (Fill name in here) Shootout! 
What are ya gunna name it? You're welcome to "Led Sled" My Jetta's name, 
You're not far from my weight, 3400lbs WITHOUT me aboard, which, 
intrerestingly enouf is the Jetta's GVW. If I take 5 badd-eries out I can 
get almost by, but I like 120 volt performance over 90.

    You're running a STOCK 24-36 volt forktruk motor!?No tweeking? Like a 
big brush advance or in flite adjustment? GE machine? Guessin' yul be in the 
11's with a bit of test an' tune?

    Seeya

    Bob, back on the Least Coast, where these things just don't happen. Come 
back an' liven up the Berlin Turnpike<g>!

    ____________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> -- 
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.15/949 - Release Date: 8/12/2007 
> 11:03 AM
> 



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 11:30:33 -0400
From: "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] A123 Battery Feasibility
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

This thread is an ideal example of why we need to get all of this
wisdom onto a darned Wiki! :-)

Bill Dube offhandedly mentioned "Oh yeah, that problem was basically
solved a whole ago and the answer is this.." Wow! I mean, I would have
loved to have had that in a Wiki under 'Hybrid Battery Packs'
somewhere. It would have saved me a few hours of musing.

David, I suggest an EVDL approved Wiki, perhaps only accessible (for
edits and contributions) to EVDL/EAA/XXXorganization members. It's
free software, and instead of cobbled together FAQs it would be a
living repository where contributors could just post their musings
onto a community moderated board. The rate limiting factor would be
who you chose as editors. It would offload a lot of the repeat traffic
here, give us linkable material that is consistent, and allow for
collaboration way beyond what the EVDL allows.

I'd be happy to assist in setting it up and paying for it.. let me know!

--T



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 11:33:18 EDT
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Test Drive Motor Stink
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

In a message dated 9/1/2007 7:27:27 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 
> Re: [EVDL] Test Drive Motor Stink 
> Date:9/1/2007 7:27:27 AM US Mountain Standard Time
> From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Reply-to:ev@lists.sjsu.edu
> To:ev@lists.sjsu.edu
> Received from Internet: 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you exceeding the motor voltage rated limits? I had the same symptoms 
> once, and burned the motor to a crisp before I realized what was going on.
> 
> Joseph H. Strubhar
> **How much open circuit voltage do you have on your vech?Joseph I have a 
> 24/36 volt forklift motor that sees well over 220 volts from my 360 volt pack 
> at 
> near 5000 rpm with as much as 1800 motor amps.It went from 108F last night 
> to 124F in 4 qt.mile passes in 105F ambient at the end of the night.The comm 
> is a golden brown this morning.Maybe its not the motor at all, Jim Husted has 
> rebuilt thousands of motors so I would look elsewhere 1st.    Dennis Berube
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
> 
> E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jude Anthony" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EVDL new" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 5:09 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] Test Drive Motor Stink
> 
> 
> >Just took Silent E out for a spin around the block.  She's not finished
> >yet -- needs splashguards, cable conduit, and lots of little things -- 
> >but I had reconnected everything and wanted to find any big problems.
> >(I need to readjust my potbox, because I could never get more than 1/2
> >acceleration out of it, even with my foot on the floor.)
> >
> >The big problem was motor stink.  It smelled like burned insulation.
> >(Not that I've smelled that before.)  It was strong enough that my wife
> >noticed it as I pulled into the garage after only one trip around the
> >cul-de-sac.
> >
> >This is, essentially, a new motor.  Jim rebuilt it months ago, on short
> >notice, and I just got it back on the road (sorry, Jim.  Family stuff
> >got in the way).  Am I burning off lubrication oil, or breaking in
> >brushes, or actually hurting something?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Jude
   


------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 09:43:04 -0500
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] BLDC control design
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Dale Ulan wrote:
> The reason I wanted to use MCU over hardware is that
> my motors have very low inductance, and a current-
> controlled strategy should result in the cleanest
> commutation, lowest switching loss, and lowest possibility
> of blow-ups.

Then you may want to look at a current-source inverter design. They have 
a large inductor in series with the battery, which tends to make battery 
current continuous (at least on a sub-millisecond basis). The inverter 
switches steer this "constant" current to the motor coils as appropriate.

Current source inverters don't need motor inductance, and also pretty 
much avoid large capacitor banks. They have the unusual feature that you 
deliberately *want* dead time in the H-bridge switches -- turning on 
both upper and lower transistors at the same time shorts the big 
inductor across the battery, to let it build up current. Then one of the 
switches is turned off to divert the current to the respective motor 
winding. It eliminates shoot-through current failures, and allows boost 
converter operation (to get higher motor voltages from a low voltage pack).

> When I calculated out the current feedback
> loop gains for these motors, I came up with extremely
> low gains for stability, but that makes the control
> sluggish without feedforward mapping. I also would
> prefer to use leg current reconstruction rather than
> LEM's everywhere. Possibly the 0-5V LEM's would be ok
> to interface with a micro but I found the accuracy in
> the under 20A region to be poor if the controller can
> dish out 250 or 300A. Perhaps that all doesn't really
> matter and it works anyways?

Don't over-design it. You're not building a precision servomotor; it's 
just an automobile motor. Slow response, torque pulsations, and 
imprecise speed are normal characteristics of every ICE. People are used 
to it, expect it, and compensate for it (via the accelerator pedal) 
without even thinking about it.

I found that building a small-scale version of the various AC drives to 
bench test helped a lot. Mostly, I found that exotic control algorithms 
weren't really necessary. They improve efficiency and smoothness 
slightly, in return for a major increase in complexity and lower 
reliability.

Consider: Essentially all mass-produced motor speed controls for 
consumer applications run open-loop, with *no* speed or position 
sensing, and no current control except a fuse for fault conditions. They 
just let the speed wander wherever it happens to go depending on load, 
line voltage, etc. Users don't even notice.

> What's your (or other's) take on the IR high-voltage gate
> drives vs. optos. I'm strongly in favor of the optos, but
> the power supply for them is a bit painful - six channels
> of it.

The IR and similar parts are great, but can be quirky (odd failure modes 
not documented on the data sheet). They are also single-sourced. If you 
build a drive and need a replacement part next year, you may be out of 
luck. There are lots of dead motor drives that can't be fixed because 
they used proprietary parts that are no longer available.

My approach is to use older proven parts that are second sourced. 
Likewise, I tend to use circuits that have been successfully used in 
products for years, and so are thoroughly debugged. Otherwise, it takes 
too much time to debug a new circuit with an unfamiliar chip, just to 
get a small number of boards working. Save the new stuff for a big 
project where there is a large enough engineering budget to thoroughly 
test it.

> I thought that adding a micro to that class of design
> would be less risky than blowing up a bunch of IGBT's
> because of a software error.

Yes. My design philosophy is to use micros in such a way that it is 
IMPOSSIBLE for a software failure to cause a deadly hardware failure.
-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 09:59:24 -0500
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor wish list
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Rod Hower wrote:
> Motor cost for sepex is the same, more turns of the
> same amount of copper.

Yes; if you don't add interpoles or a larger commutator to survive 
regen. But if you somehow improve commutation , the regen you get will 
be no better than what you could have gotten with a series motor.

> The control will require an H-bridge for the sepex field, but
> silicon cost is low enough to offset the advantages.

Yes, I think this is the key. Golf cart manufacturers are *fanatics* 
about cost! No one can pinch pennies like they can! They won't change 
*anything* unless it reduces cost.

I think they are going sepex to avoid the big reversing contactors 
needed for a series motor (which had to switch full motor current). Yes, 
the sepex controller adds cost for the field controller, but they save 
more on the reversing contactors than the cost of the extra electronics.

All the other benefits of sepex (regen, speed limiting, improved range) 
are just marketing gravy. They won't pay for them, but will certainly 
use them to lure customers.

> The only thing really needed with this motor/control
> combination is that the software is tuned for the
> motor/control.

There is no intrinsic reason why a controller can't learn the 
characteristics of the motor, and adapt to it all by itself. You don't 
"need" a custom designed controller, custom programmed for just one 
particular motor. It's just that for a manufacturer, it's easier and 
cheaper to do it that way.

It also plays into the manufacturer's hands. If the motor and controller 
are a matched pair, then you can't buy replacements from anyone else. 
They can charge more for repairs and replacements, because you won't 
have any alternatives.

Unfortunately, this also means the system becomes unfixable a few years 
down the road when the manufacturer goes out of business, or simply 
decides not to support that model ("buy our new model instead...").

-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 11:47:47 EDT
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 3178 lb.S10 runs in 12s, Sounds like fun!
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

In a message dated 9/1/2007 8:25:16 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 
> ns in 12s, Sounds like fun! 
> Date:9/1/2007 8:25:16 AM US Mountain Standard Time
> From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Reply-to:ev@lists.sjsu.edu
> To:ev@lists.sjsu.edu
> Received from Internet: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 9:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] 3178 lb.S10 runs in 12s
> 
> 
> >I thought my S10 would be a little lighter but an official weight of 3178 
> >+-
> >1.5lbs without me!!With me 3354 lbs.Well it is a service truck, daily 
> >driver.
> >The 13in. x 13in. 24/36 volt traction motor put my S 10 in the 12s.It 
> >kinda
> >slow in the 1st 1/8 mile but pulls like a freight train at the top end. 
> >All its
> >runs were well over 100mph with almost bracket race close ets.the best 
> >being a
> >12.76 at almost 106mph.This was again almost a third of a second quicker 
> >than
> >last week. This is the 13th time down the qt. mile and still taking off 
> >big
> >chunks of time. We did have a lot of wind and dust (side and front) to 
> >contend
> >with being this is still our monsoon season. This improvement in 
> >performance
> >did not include adjusting the zilla to the remaining power left in the
> >batteries but came as the result of a smaller tire. So there may be still 
> >surprise
> >ETS. left in this heavy truck. This truck has only 30 26ah lead batteries 
> >in the
> >drive system.
> >
> >                     The motor is performing great, no sign of arcing, a
> >beautiful golden tan communator.It must be all the motor homework.  I 
> >still have
> >to add weight though to be legal in the 900lb? lighter zombies nedra 
> >record
> >catorgy.The truck still needs a headliner!             Dennis Berube
> >_
> __    Hi Dennis;
> 
>      Wow! Super nice job!! Watch out for that headliner! Could add several 
> pounds to the weight<g>! I see a Zoombie, va. (Fill name 
> What are ya gunna name it? You're welcome to "Led Sled" My Jetta's name, 
> You're not far from my weight, 3400lbs WITHOUT me aboard, which, 
> intrerestingly enouf is the Jetta's GVW. If I take 5 badd-eries out I can 
> get almost by, but I like 120 volt performance over 90.
> **The license plate will read QUICKEV but she does not have a name yet but 
> Plasma eliminator will be on the front bumper sooner than later!
>     You're running a STOCK 24-36 volt forktruk motor!?No tweeking? Like a 
> big brush advance or in flite adjustment? GE machine? Guessin' yul be in the 
> 
> 11's with a bit of test an' tune?
> **Its just a $25 junkyard motor yes ge or hyster as the nameplate sais.It 
> has a few of my basic tricks! 11s are still a few weeks away I like to take 
> these steps slow.
>     Seeya
> 
>     Bob, back on the Least Coast, where these things just don't happen. Come 
> 
> back an' liven up the Berlin Turnpike<g>!
> **Ah my old street stomp um grounds,Its where I grew up street racing a 
thousand(at least)street cars every friday and sat. night with my 401 65 Buick 
GS.
   


------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 10:57:57 -0500
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Test Drive Motor Stink
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

From: "Jude Anthony" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Just took Silent E out for a spin around the block... The big
> problem was motor stink. It smelled like burned insulation.

What gear were you in? Could motor RPM have been so low that it was 
drawing excessive current and you weren't spinning the fan fast enough 
to get any cooling airflow?

Did you feel the motor when you got back? Was it hot?

A mistake that many first-time EVers make is to drive it like an ICE, 
where you shift to keep RPM low. Electric motors work *better* at high 
rpm. It lowers their current (more efficient, less heat), and makes 
their internal fan work better (more cooling). If you're just driving 
around the block, you shouldn't even have gotten out of 2nd gear.

-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 11:00:36 -0500
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Motor wish list
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Lee Hart wrote:
> if you somehow improve commutation, regen will be no better than what
> you could have gotten with a series motor.

Typo; It should have said "if you DON'T somehow improve commutation,
regen will be no better than what you could have gotten with a series motor.

-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net



------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 12:16:05 -0400
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] * Re: Electric Sun Buggy
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=original


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] * Re: Electric Sun Buggy


> Some of us also associate the whine of gears with high power sports cars
> :-) I think a straight cut gearreduction would both be more efficient
> and provide the feedback people are looking for.

>   Hi EVerybody;
   Streight cut gears give you the sound a trolley car lover  loves ! HAD 
them in one of my early EV's. It, when taped on a reel to reel tape, this 
was 40 years ago, great! Sounded like Philly, in the 40's when they had 
lottsa trolley cars. Could count the points in the controller as you notched 
up!Yes! My kind of feedback! Nostalgic sounds like a GG-1(12 motors, 
streight cut gears, Pennsy knew somethingh about efficiency)or MP-54 
commuter MU cars.Of course it was hard to beat the EV-1's cool sound. Youse 
guyz that drove that know this one?

     Good Vibrations!

     Bob
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> -- 
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.15/949 - Release Date: 8/12/2007 
> 11:03 AM
>
> 



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 13:44:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric Sun Buggy
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Electric Vehicle Discussion List
        <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Originally, ZillaVIlla said:
>where does it become cost effective to go electric (initial 
>investment VS. operating expense)?

Good ideas on *costs* and development. Just wanted to comment that
additional *revenues* may offset some e-costs... 

If the e-buggies are significantly
quieter/"greener"/odor-free/whatever, *some* folks will pay a premium
for this, today.

Corporate or repeat clientele might be canvassed for support. 

One advantage the e-buggies do have right now vs gas.


>Just wondering if anyone here can help me by referring to 
>past solutions with similar operating conditions.

Past solutions didn't have options for the newer battery chemistries:
http://www.valence.com/
http://www.nilar.com/

:)

LoCk
Living Better Electrically in Toronto
human-electric hybrid


      Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to 
Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 14:05:31 -0400
From: Ben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] A123 Battery Feasibility
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

If anyone wants to pursue this option, I have the space and bandwidth
available to host it. I'm just lurking here because I'd love to build
an EV someday - it may be awhile before I can afford it, but I know
already that it'd be great to have a central location to visit for the
knowledge this group has.

Ben

On 9/1/07, Timothy Balcer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This thread is an ideal example of why we need to get all of this
> wisdom onto a darned Wiki! :-)
>
> Bill Dube offhandedly mentioned "Oh yeah, that problem was basically
> solved a whole ago and the answer is this.." Wow! I mean, I would have
> loved to have had that in a Wiki under 'Hybrid Battery Packs'
> somewhere. It would have saved me a few hours of musing.
>
> David, I suggest an EVDL approved Wiki, perhaps only accessible (for
> edits and contributions) to EVDL/EAA/XXXorganization members. It's
> free software, and instead of cobbled together FAQs it would be a
> living repository where contributors could just post their musings
> onto a community moderated board. The rate limiting factor would be
> who you chose as editors. It would offload a lot of the repeat traffic
> here, give us linkable material that is consistent, and allow for
> collaboration way beyond what the EVDL allows.
>
> I'd be happy to assist in setting it up and paying for it.. let me know!
>
> --T
>
> _______________________________________________
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>



------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 11:44:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: dale henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] * Re: Electric Sun Buggy
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

you could start off small: just make one.  if these
buggies are traveling in a group you could put a
couple of batteries on each of the other [gas]
buggies. start with enough lead to move the buggy for
an hour then during a mid-trip break swap the
batteries out with the ones you carried on the other
buggies for the return trip.

a bit of a hassle but it would be a cheap way to start
using an EV on your trips.  since you are building
these things from scratch it should be possible to
make it cheaper than with an ICE

no matter how your slice it, you will need to swap
batteries if you want to run it all day.  so it should
not make much of a difference where you swap them.

once the EV has proved itself then lithium's would be
more justified and hopefully cheaper by then.

--- Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 11:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] * Re: Electric Sun Buggy
> 
> 
> > Some of us also associate the whine of gears with
> high power sports cars
> > :-) I think a straight cut gearreduction would
> both be more efficient
> > and provide the feedback people are looking for.
> 
> >   Hi EVerybody;
>    Streight cut gears give you the sound a trolley
> car lover  loves ! HAD 
> them in one of my early EV's. It, when taped on a
> reel to reel tape, this 
> was 40 years ago, great! Sounded like Philly, in the
> 40's when they had 
> lottsa trolley cars. Could count the points in the
> controller as you notched 
> up!Yes! My kind of feedback! Nostalgic sounds like a
> GG-1(12 motors, 
> streight cut gears, Pennsy knew somethingh about
> efficiency)or MP-54 
> commuter MU cars.Of course it was hard to beat the
> EV-1's cool sound. Youse 
> guyz that drove that know this one?
> 
>      Good Vibrations!
> 
>      Bob
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
> > -- 
> > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.15/949 -
> Release Date: 8/12/2007 
> > 11:03 AM
> >
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
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> 


Albuquerque, NM
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1221
http://geocities.com/solarcookingman


       
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