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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Sensors at drive throughs (Hunter Cook)
   2. Re: Using a serial port sniffer to replace SIADIS program?
      (Ralph Merwin)
   3. Re: Zivan vs. others (Michaela Merz)
   4. Re: Modified K&W BC-20 questions (Roland Wiench)
   5. Re: Zivan vs. others (Mark Dutko)
   6. Re: Overdiven 10hp AC (Jeff Major)
   7. Re: Sensors at drive throughs (GWMobile)
   8. Undrilled lugs (dave cover)
   9. Re: Using a serial port sniffer to replace SIADIS program?
      (Paschke, Stephen)
  10. Re: Sensors at drive throughs
      (Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G)
  11. Re: Help: Too many murdered cells, DeWalt/A123!
      (vehiculeselectriques.free.fr)
  12. Re: Undrilled lugs (Ralph Merwin)
  13. Re: Sensors at drive throughs (Martin Klingensmith)
  14. Re: Undrilled lugs (Jeff Major)
  15. Re: Undrilled Lugs (Bill & Nancy)
  16. Re: Using a serial port sniffer to replace SIADIS program? (ProEV)
  17. Re: Sensors at drive throughs (Lee Hart)
  18. Re: Tesla Roadster Charging Efficiency... (ProEV)
  19. Re: Zivan vs. others (Jeremy Green)
  20. Re: Zivan vs. others (Mark Dutko)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 09:21:00 -0500
From: Hunter Cook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain

Roland-

I can eat about 2 tacos per mile in the EV. More on the unicycle, less
in my ICE car.

Hope that helps...

Hunter

On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 08:03 -0600, Roland Wiench wrote:
> Oh no, that is another calculation that has to make to run a vehicle.  How 
> many taco's does it take to go a mile?
> 
> To power a EV from a coal generation plant, the total cost should be use. 
> The energy to mine the ore to make the steel, to make the steel plants, to 
> make the machines to mine the coal, the delivery of the coal, the building 
> of the power plant, the delivery of the energy and then the cost of the 
> energy.
> 
> I do not use any of that except for the delivery and cost of the energy. A 
> lot of people ask me how my EV works.  I tell them it runs on solar energy 
> and gravity, which is the indirect energy that runs the five hydro dams we 
> have here in Great Falls, Montana.
> 
> Roland
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Hunter Cook" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 7:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs
> 
> 
> > So I went back to that same Taco Bueno this morning for breakfast on my
> > unicycle. (It's really the only fast food in unicycle range, or the
> > range of my current EV, for that matter) This time I looked for the cuts
> > in the concrete. They looked like very small versions of the simple (not
> > quadrupole) induction loops. By very small I mean about 1'x3', whereas I
> > think I read DOT spec was 60' long!
> >
> > Anyway, according to the article I linked below the small loops should
> > be able to detect much smaller conductors. In fact, I'm pretty sure it
> > detected my unicycle; I was standing outside the pickup window (not the
> > order window...there were loops both places) where I could hear inside,
> > and when I rolled the wheel on the pavement cuts I could hear beeping
> > inside. Could have just been a coincidence with a fryer going off or
> > something, but I did it a few times and I think the guy got annoyed by
> > it. Next time for a better test I'll ride up to the order window (where
> > they can't see me) and just roll the wheel around instead of pushing the
> > button and see if they notice.
> >
> > Obviously, different restaraunts may have totally different setups. Your
> > Whr/mi may vary.
> >
> > Hunter
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 05:57 -0500, Hunter Cook wrote:
> > > Wow. Cool thread.
> > >
> > > I should note that Taco Bueno had no trouble detecting my EV last night.
> > > On the other hand, it wouldn't have mattered much, as in addition to
> > > whatever sensor they have there, they also have a pushbutton, which
> > > comes in very handy when I'm on the unicycle.
> > >
> > > I always just figured they had some sort of weight sensor. But then,
> > > that's also what I figured the traffic-light loop sensors were, which
> > > clearly is wrong, as Morgan's links suggest. A quick search turned up
> > > this abstract:
> > > http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/signals/detection.htm
> > >  
> > > which goes into somewhat more detail, and has specific recommendations 
> > > for bycicles. Apparently the loops are supposed to be able to detect 
> > > anything metal of high enough mass.
> > >
> > > So...they ought to detect an EV. I would be darn surprised if a fast
> > > food joint was really expecting their drive-through employees to listen
> > > for engine sounds. Almost as surprised as if they were using RF to
> > > detect spark plugs going off ;-)
> > >
> > > Hunter
> > >
> > > On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 04:24 -0500, Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> > > > I just found this info; I'm guessing drive-thru sensors are similar to
> > > > traffic light sensors:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/loopdet.shtml
> > > > http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/looptips.shtml
> > > >
> > > > -Morgan LaMoore
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > For subscription options, see
> > > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For subscription options, see
> > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 07:09:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using a serial port sniffer to replace SIADIS
        program?
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


Cliff,

A co-worker of mine uses a program called "Serial Monitor Lite" from
HHD Software (http://www.hhdsoftware.com/).  It inserts itself into
the Windows driver and gives you access to data in both directions.
It appears to run on newer versions of Windows though.  Can you put
SAIDIS on a newer system?

HDD Software also has a USB monitor.

Ralph


ProEV writes:
> 
> Hi Everybody,
> 
> I would like to use the information coming from a Simovert AC controller and 
> display it in a Labview program. The controllers are tracking a lot of 
> useful information such as amps, volts, motor temp.
> 
> At the moment I need the DOS program, SIADIS, that came with the controllers 
> to communicate. It is a little limited in it's ability especially to display 
> kWhrs used.
> 
> SIADIS communicates with the Simovert controller through the serial port. My 
> understanding is that I should use serial port sniffer software to record 
> the traffic between the controller and SIADIS and then try and deduce the 
> commands.
> 
> Anybody have any experience with such a project? Any pointers? Any 
> recommendations for a Sniffer program that will work on a Windows 95 or 98 
> computer running a DOS program as a DOS window either through the standard 
> serial port or a USB to serial port?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Cliff
> www.ProEV.com
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 09:38:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zivan vs. others
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1


Hello list ;)

Its also a price question. The Zivan charger is fully isolated and is
cheaper than, say, Brusa. And most folks don't change the battery
configuration often enough to think to deeply about not being able to
're-program' their chargers.

I had some, well, unfortunate experiences with EV stuff made in
Switzerland.   My Zivan (NG-3) is doing its work and, AFAIK, its doing it
well.

As usual, just my two cents.

mm.

>
> A few additional questions for the group:
>
> 1. Does anyone use the thermal sensor option? If so, has it improved any
> aspect of your charging?
>
> 2. A friend of mine is using a 115v NG3 on a 156v pack. He's never
> reported
> any problem with this setup. I was surprised, therefore, to see the Zivan
> specs on electroauto.com.
>
> Their table shows that a 115v NG3 is for packs between 96v and 144v,
> whereas
> the 230v model should be used for packs between 96v and 288v. That
> suggests
> that my friend should be using the 230v version. Does that mean that he's
> undercharging his batts or harming them in anyway? Is he stressing the
> Zivan
> by applying it to a pack that is outside the recommended voltage?
>
> (I'm asking because I'm converting a truck to 156v. Soon, I'll have to buy
> a
> charger and will have to decide between these models.)
>
> 3. Hypothetical scenario: Let's say that I'm in the middle of a charge and
> need to use the vehicle for an emergency. In other words, the Zivan would
> not be able to complete its charge cycle because I have to turn it off
> prematurely. What -- if any -- harm would be done, either to the charger
> or
> to the pack?
>
> Thanks for any guidance you may have.
>
> Steve Kobb
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Zivan-vs.-others-tf4550709s25542.html#a12999293
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
>
>




------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 09:53:46 -0600
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Modified K&W BC-20 questions
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

Hello Hunter,

The series connections in the primaries of several transformers is corrected 
for connecting to a higher input AC voltage, or increasing the out voltage 
on the total sum of the windings which will increase the secondary voltage.

For example:

Lets say you have two transformers that have a 120 volt primary with leads 
mark L1 and L2 and a 120 volt secondary leads mark T1 and T2.  This is 
normally a 1:1 ratio transformer.

The normal way to connect to this transformer is to supply 120 vac to the 
primaries to each transformer, which parallels the primary leads L1 to L1 
and L2 to L2.

The secondary of each transformer will have a output of 120 volts.

Now is we series the primaries of the transformers by connecting one leg of 
the 240 volt input to L1 and connect L2 of the first transformer to L1 of 
the second transformer and the second leg of the 240 volt input to L2 of the 
second transformer, you will still get 120 volts out each transformer 
secondary.

If we connect the secondary of each transformer in series like we did with 
the primary, you can also get 240 vac out or can get 120/240 volt out if you 
center tap the secondary series connections that go between the two 
connections.

Another way to connect the 120 vac input power to two transformers that 
primaries are series together, is to connect 120 volts to the first 
transformer primary L1 and L2.  Connect the first transformer L2 to the 
second transformer L1 and no connection to the second transformer L2.

You can apply the 120 vac power to the primary of the first transformer and 
using a volt meter, you will read 240 volts between the leads of the L1 of 
the first transformer and the L2 lead with no connection in the primary of 
the second transformer.

This is what is call a boast circuit or some transformers call a potential 
transformers which have several taps in the primary.

So the series connections you have for the 108 v battery pack should 
increase for a 120 v battery pack.

Also check to see if you have the correct resistor for the 120 v battery 
pack as listed on page 7 of the manual.

Tightening all the wire connections and inspecting the wire for crack 
insulation and etc, should be ok to fire it up or give it a smoke test.

Using Uve's EV calculations, a 120 v battery psck of T-145's should give you 
a range of 66 miles at 10%D0D, or 33 miles at 50%.  A pack of T-105's would 
be at about 15 miles 50%D)D at a speed of 60 mph with a vehicle weight of 
4260 to 4460 lbs.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Hunter Cook" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 8:18 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Modified K&W BC-20 questions


> Hello again,
>
> Some of you may recall that I've got an old K&W BC-20 charger trying to
> charge a 132v (used to be 144v) pack, which should not (and in my
> observation, does not) work very well. Some very knowledgeable folks
> have said it's good only to 108v, or 120 with the LB-20 booster. So far
> this has all sounded very reasonable, as in my experience the charger
> will only bring the pack up to about 140-145v.
>
> This morning I really got in and looked at the way things were wired up
> for the first time. It appears that it is wired with a larger
> transformer in an LB-20-style boosting role.
>
> Specifically, there is a Signal Transformer model MPI-900-40 wired up
> exactly the way the BC-20 manual shows an LB-20, except that the MPI is
> using 2 20v outputs together in series rather than just the one 20v
> output of the LB-20. Here's the pdf of the manual, which has a good
> diagram of it: http://evdl.org/docs/bc-20.pdf
>
> I also found a loose connection from the plug to the MPI. Complete with
> burn marks. Awesome. This may be related to the truck flipping the
> breaker this morning when I plugged it in, which is what prompted me to
> take a more serious look at where the wires were going.
>
> So...this brings me to a few questions:
>
> 1. Should this transformer + K&W setup work for a pack of my size? It
> seems logical enough I suppose, assuming he also changed out the
> internal resistor (haven't had a chance to check, and not sure what the
> value should be as the target voltage is higher than the table goes in
> the manual) and assuming the other components in the BC-20 can take the
> extra voltage. Since the vehicle is pretty old, I guess they can.
>
> 2. How bad is it that I've got minor burns on my input terminal strip
> for the transformer? I tightened up the connection and it works again,
> though I didn't try for long.
>
> 3. Is this dangerous?
>
> I'm still in the market for a new charger, no doubt about that. But I
> hope I can still keep limping around on this one for a minute. I do need
> to move the truck about 6 miles this week (from my old house to my new
> one) which believe it or not will probably require a charge in the
> middle. I'm not really equipped to tow it.
>
> Thanks again for all the help everybody's been giving me.
>
> Hunter
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 09:08:13 -0700
From: Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zivan vs. others
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed


On Oct 2, 2007, at 5:46 AM, Ben wrote:

> I interpreted Mark's statement a little differently -- I think he was
> stating that the Zivan sellers have claimed that the PC software used
> to program the chargers wasn't as reliable -- In other words, wasn't
> up to being placed in the hands of an end user.

Correct. The profiles they have are provided by Zivan to the  
distributor and the dist can slightly adjust them but it is not done  
with software and they have limited latitude. It is then burned to a  
chip and placed into the charger. In the Brusa you log on set the  
parameters and download it, and you can have multiple profiles at one  
that are "if then based" or changed by the digital outputs or  
sensors, etc. The charger profile can also be changed by say bms via  
a CAN bus.  It is very flexible and provides very sophisticated  
control and flexibility.   They value here is that you can set  
multiple exceptions for complicated charge profiles. You can also set  
additional profiles for things such as maintenance charges which are  
used for filling nicads.
>
> Of course, that is just my interpretation, and not much more than an
> empty justification ... Zivan doesn't let end users program the
> chargers because they want to capitalize on the additional revenue
> stream of servicing / reprogramming the chargers. I'm sure someone at
> the company looked at resell values of chargers like Brusa's as well,
> and decided (right or wrong) that the high level of programmability
> might hurt future sales of new chargers, too.
>
> I'm not sure that either argument is sound -- after all, if you
> provide the better product from day one you'll attract more customers.
> And just because I can go out and buy any used charger to reprogram
> for my batteries doesn't mean I'll never buy a new one -- I'm more
> likely to go back and buy a new product from a company if I've used an
> old product in the past and been happy with it. Unfortunately, it's
> near impossible to argue with a company who sees what they are doing
> as being in their best financial interest.
>
> Ben
>
> On 10/2/07, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> To clarify that - software is something that is typically stored  
>> on hard
>> (or floppy or solid state or compact) disk, loads and runs on your  
>> PC.
>> Example - CD with word processor program or a PC Operating System.
>> Firmware is something that is stored and runs directly on silicon
>> (microcontroller with internal/external program memory).
>> Example - computer BIOS, jet printer head driver, and such.
>>
>> In case of BRUSA and any other uP controlled charger I'm aware of,
>> software (PC) is only connected to it to configure and store desired
>> profile in charger's non-volatile memory. Once it's done, charger
>> executes this profile without a PC, so essentially runs its  
>> "firmware".
>>
>> It's just user changeable ("flushable") firmware. It's as reliable as
>> any other firmware. When was last time your PC's flash BIOS chip  
>> failed?
>>
>> Victor
>>
>> Mark Dutko wrote:
>>> Zivan sellers also claims that the software is not as reliable as  
>>> the
>>> firmware- not so sure about that. Also, their ability to custom
>>> program a charger is limited to "tweaking" the few profiles they  
>>> have
>>> and is not an exact process.
>>> On Oct 1, 2007, at 6:21 PM, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 09:09:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Overdiven 10hp AC
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1


Hi Jeff,

You seem to propagate a common misconception here
about poles and torque.  It is my opinion that pole
count increase does not increase torque density in
these double air gap motors.  Torque is a function of
the total air gap area, flux density and current
density.

Let's stick with 60 Hz induction motors.  If you have
a 5 hp rated 4 pole motor, it has a speed of 1800 RPM.
 Let's neglect slip for simplicity.  So it would have
a rated torque of 14.6 lb.ft.  And a 5 hp rated 8 pole
motor would be 900 RPM and have a rated torque of 29.2
lb.ft.  It would appear that doubling the pole count
has doubled the torque.  Right?

But take a look at a major motor manufacturer's
catalog.  The 5 hp, 4 pole motor is a 213 frame size,
115 lbs.  The 5 hp, 8 pole motor is a 256 frame size,
211 lbs.  Both TENV.  The mass has nearly doubled for
twice the torque.  The torque density is about the
same.

I'm sure you can find some examples which contradict
this example.  Nameplate ratings can be dangerous. 
So, with particular cooling schemes, the power ratings
for motors with different pole counts may be in the
same frame size.  This is due to the fact that the
rating is strictly dependent on the losses.  So if the
motors are of equal efficiency, the power rating will
be the same.  But the breakdown torque will also be
the same.  You haven't increased the torque with more
poles, you're just rating it at a lower speed.

Regards,

Jeff M

--- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> This can only apply if you start with a good 10hp AC
> motor to begin
> with. Let me try and explain.
> 
> While all motors are a balance between the power you
> put in and the heat
> you can dissipate, the less heat you generate, the
> more you can push this.
> In a dc motor the majority is resistive losses in an
> AC motor the
> reactive losses are a big concern.
> 
> 
> A little theory:
> The fundamental rpm of an AC motor is 3600/ (# of
> pole pairs) - slip  so
> a 4 pole AC Syncronous* motor motor at 60 Hz
> (3600cycles/minute) is 1800 rpm
> 
> *Induction Ac motors have slip a percentage the
> rotor lags behind that
> creates the magnetic field needed for torque
> production. This is why you
> see 1725rpm.
> 
> The more poles, the more torque at the expense of
> rpm. So a motor that
> is designed for 60hz is huge for it's torque. A
> typical 30hp 60hz motor
> is 18" around by 20" long and weights 100's of
> pounds. But it can be
> made with unsophisticated materials because 60hz is
> such a low
> frequency, that the reactive losses are low. Now
> take the traditional 4
> pole motor and turn it into a 12 pole motor, same
> amount of windings and
> iron and the torque triples, but  600rpm and you
> can't drive very fast.
> The solution is simple, crank the frequency up and
> gear down the result.
> Now a 100lb 10" diameter motor 10" long can do the
> deed. The issue
> becomes the added heat generated as the ac field in
> the laminations
> changes polarity more times per second, the cheap
> laminations don't like
> changing magnetic polarity and resist giving off
> heat. The currents are
> stronger and the cheap oxidation layer between the
> laminations is
> insuffient to stop eddy currents from spiraling
> between laminations
> forming even more loss. The windings vibrate more
> and self destruct in
> less time.



      
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------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 09:30:39 -0700
From: GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"

I wndoer if you taped a small magnet to your unicucle if it would 
distrub the induction loop in the sensor enough to make a small metal 
mass detectable.
Hell my small two seater car is often not detected at street lights.

On Tue, 2 Oct 2007 3:59 am, Hunter Cook wrote:
> Wow. Cool thread.
>
> I should note that Taco Bueno had no trouble detecting my EV last 
> night.
> On the other hand, it wouldn't have mattered much, as in addition to
> whatever sensor they have there, they also have a pushbutton, which
> comes in very handy when I'm on the unicycle.
>
> I always just figured they had some sort of weight sensor. But then,
> that's also what I figured the traffic-light loop sensors were, which
> clearly is wrong, as Morgan's links suggest. A quick search turned up
> this abstract:
> http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/signals/detection.htm 
> which goes into somewhat more detail, and has specific recommendations 
> for bycicles. Apparently the loops are supposed to be able to detect 
> anything metal of high enough mass.
>
> So...they ought to detect an EV. I would be darn surprised if a fast
> food joint was really expecting their drive-through employees to listen
> for engine sounds. Almost as surprised as if they were using RF to
> detect spark plugs going off ;-)
>
> Hunter
>
> On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 04:24 -0500, Morgan LaMoore wrote:
>>  I just found this info; I'm guessing drive-thru sensors are similar to
>>  traffic light sensors:
>>
>>  http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/loopdet.shtml
>>  http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/looptips.shtml
>>
>>  -Morgan LaMoore
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  For subscription options, see
>>  http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming 
and the melting poles.

www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 12:47:18 -0400
From: "dave cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Undrilled lugs
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Does anyone know of a source of lugs that have not already been drilled? I
have 2/0 cables running from my pack in the back to my controller in front.
The pack is BB600s with the small bolts holding the cable onto a 1/2"
diameter contact pad. Most lugs for 2/0 cables usually have a hole for
a 5/16" bolt or larger. I lose a lot of contact area between the lug and the
battery pad with this size hole. I'd really like to drill my own, but
haven't found a source yet.

Thanks

Dave Cover


------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 10:47:40 -0600
From: "Paschke, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using a serial port sniffer to replace SIADIS
        program?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
        
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Alltrax has published their serial protocol on their site I believe.  I
remember seeing it once.

> Stephen Paschke 
> DAR, ERISA, Plan Review, and IPI/ICTMS support, 
>TIAA-CREF Denver
> Senior Consultant 
> Keane, Inc. 
> Office 303-607-2993 
> Cell 303-204-9280
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Myles Twete
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 11:05 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using a serial port sniffer to replace SIADIS
program?

Good suggestion.
Has anyone asked Alltrax for their serial protocol?
I'd like to get the controller to send serial data out, but not have to
run
their setup app.
Thanks in advance.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf
Of Jim Davis
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 8:56 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using a serial port sniffer to replace SIADIS
program?

Cliff,

I've used Viewcomm (http://www.GreenleafSoft.com), a rather pricey old
serial sniffer. It is good software, and comes with an octopus of serial
cables. The new version runs only on Windows 2000 or later (I have the
older version which runs fine on 98, NT, etc, on thru W2K).

You don't need to host the sniffer on the same computer as the SIADIS,
with Viewcomm. You can cable in the sniffer from an independent 2nd
machine, and that is usually the best method anyway. There used to be
dedicated hardware sniffers, and you could probably find one on CL or
eBay, for a lot less than what the Viewcomm software (and cable set)
goes
for.

But first, I'd suggest tracking down the author of the controller's
firmware, and simply ask them if they have a doc which defines their
protocol, and ask them for a copy. Certainly, reverse engineering a
serial
communication protocol is feasible, but unless the company that made
your
controller is out of business, or uncooperative, getting the doc would
be
more cost effective (time is money).

That was my challenge, the last time I invoked my copy of Viewcomm-- my
AVS hybrid-electric bus came with a BMS which controls the Capstone
microturbine over the serial link, but the BMS was undocumented, and AVS
(as well as the BMS-subcontracter) were out of business. An hour with
the
laptop and I'd captured the conversations with Viewcomm, and knew how
the
BMS was starting the turbine.

Have you tried to gain a document on the protocol used?

Good luck.
--- ProEV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> <paraphrase>: need a serial sniffer


       
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------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 12:52:20 -0400
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,        "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
        <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"

People have said that for years.  They sell the magnet for motorcycles
to do just that.  Most don't work.  I thought they were actually a fiber
of light that gets pinched when weight is on the slab. 

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of GWMobile
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 12:31
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs

I wndoer if you taped a small magnet to your unicucle if it would
distrub the induction loop in the sensor enough to make a small metal
mass detectable.
Hell my small two seater car is often not detected at street lights.

On Tue, 2 Oct 2007 3:59 am, Hunter Cook wrote:
> Wow. Cool thread.
>
> I should note that Taco Bueno had no trouble detecting my EV last 
> night.
> On the other hand, it wouldn't have mattered much, as in addition to 
> whatever sensor they have there, they also have a pushbutton, which 
> comes in very handy when I'm on the unicycle.
>
> I always just figured they had some sort of weight sensor. But then, 
> that's also what I figured the traffic-light loop sensors were, which 
> clearly is wrong, as Morgan's links suggest. A quick search turned up 
> this abstract:
> http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/signals/detection
> .htm which goes into somewhat more detail, and has specific 
> recommendations for bycicles. Apparently the loops are supposed to be 
> able to detect anything metal of high enough mass.
>
> So...they ought to detect an EV. I would be darn surprised if a fast 
> food joint was really expecting their drive-through employees to 
> listen for engine sounds. Almost as surprised as if they were using RF

> to detect spark plugs going off ;-)
>
> Hunter
>
> On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 04:24 -0500, Morgan LaMoore wrote:
>>  I just found this info; I'm guessing drive-thru sensors are similar 
>> to  traffic light sensors:
>>
>>  http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/loopdet.shtml
>>  http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/looptips.shtml
>>
>>  -Morgan LaMoore
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  For subscription options, see
>>  http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
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> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 18:54:48 +0200
From: "vehiculeselectriques.free.fr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Help: Too many murdered cells, DeWalt/A123!
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

they share very well in parrallel but have to be matched and not defective
to make this well...
imho you have some defective cells, it happen time to time on a production
line.
 when you use 10 cells pack, 1% defective cell is less a problem than when
you use a pack made out of 100 for exemple

philippe


e2007/10/2, Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> My guess would be that the batteries aren't sharing the load current
> equally. I don't recall lithium batteries playing nice in parallel.
> --
> Martin K
>
> Jeffrey P. Kloth wrote:
> > Hi,  Hopefully some of you have been down this road and can help.  I
> > have a motorcycle converted with one Etek (brushed, Alltrax 48v
> > controller) around 6:1 drive ratio.  My problem is that though I have
> > limited the Alltrax output to 150 amps, I still get many cell deaths
> > when using multiple DeWalt 36v packs.  I usually run 4-7 parallel and
> > never let them go below 28 volts.  The bike runs great and I can
> > consistently get about 1 mile to a pack (bike and rider are heavy and
> > many real hills where I am testing).  Motor does not get hot at all by
> > end of drain.   I have run the bike at 48v but lately have been using it
> > at 36v, which with the DeWalt is really 33v nominal.  The bike is peppy
> > and fine.  I tap each of the DeWalt packs before the BMS and come out on
> > a pair of 14ga wires which I then parallel for the multi-pack.  The
> > batts get warm but no where near hot after riding.  I charge using the
> > DeWalt charger and usually give awhile for the BMS to balance the pack.
> > So far I have killed about ten cells.  They are from random places in
> > packs and usually only one in a 10s pack will go bad.  Am I causing a
> > problem by not using perhaps 12ga wire?  The 14ga never gets warm. I
> > cannot believe that too many amps output or too low cutoff voltage are
> > the problem.  The amps is at least divided by four batts or more.  Any
> > thoughts or help appreciated...
> > Jeff K.  Burbank, CA  "Deep Cycle" and "Bike to the Future"
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 10:03:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Undrilled lugs
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


Dave,

FYI, evparts.com sells 2/0 lugs with 1/4, 3/8, 1/2 and 5/16 inch holes.

Ralph


dave cover writes:
> 
> Does anyone know of a source of lugs that have not already been drilled? I
> have 2/0 cables running from my pack in the back to my controller in front.
> The pack is BB600s with the small bolts holding the cable onto a 1/2"
> diameter contact pad. Most lugs for 2/0 cables usually have a hole for
> a 5/16" bolt or larger. I lose a lot of contact area between the lug and the
> battery pad with this size hole. I'd really like to drill my own, but
> haven't found a source yet.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Dave Cover
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 13:02:59 -0400
From: Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Some motorcyclists try this. I believe the consensus is that you need 
very strong magnets.
--
Martin K


GWMobile wrote:
> I wndoer if you taped a small magnet to your unicucle if it would 
> distrub the induction loop in the sensor enough to make a small metal 
> mass detectable.
> Hell my small two seater car is often not detected at street lights.
>
>   



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 10:09:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Undrilled lugs
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1


Dave,

QuickCable has 2/0 lugs with 1/4 inch holes.  I have
never seen undrilled lugs.  Could a 2 hole lug work? 
They usually have a inch or more between the two
holes.  And you could cut off the outboard hole.

Also, QuickCable has right angle lugs which have a
solid 1/2 to 3/4 inch area before the hole.  You might
be able to cut those down and drill.

Jeff M


--- dave cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Does anyone know of a source of lugs that have not
> already been drilled? I
> have 2/0 cables running from my pack in the back to
> my controller in front.
> The pack is BB600s with the small bolts holding the
> cable onto a 1/2"
> diameter contact pad. Most lugs for 2/0 cables
> usually have a hole for
> a 5/16" bolt or larger. I lose a lot of contact area
> between the lug and the
> battery pad with this size hole. I'd really like to
> drill my own, but
> haven't found a source yet.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Dave Cover
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 



      
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------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 10:16:42 -0700
From: Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Undrilled Lugs
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

You might be able to use lugs from an anderson connector.
Bill



------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 13:23:00 -0400
From: "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using a serial port sniffer to replace SIADIS
        program?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=original

Hi Everybody,

Thanks for all the help. I think I will give Portman a try and see where I 
get.

Ralph Merwin wrote:

<Can you put SAIDIS on a newer system?

Not easily. It either will not display properly or has com port problems. I 
have spent a fair amount of time trying under Windows XP.

Jim Davis wrote:

<But first, I'd suggest tracking down the author of the controller's
firmware, and simply ask them if they have a doc which defines their
protocol, and ask them for a copy. Certainly, reverse engineering a serial
communication protocol is feasible, but unless the company that made your
controller is out of business, or uncooperative, getting the doc would be
more cost effective (time is money).>

Valid point. Since it is a surplused controller model, Siemens does not have 
any incentive to putting their time into helping me but there are some 
interesting documents on the web that might give me pointers.

Ben wrote:

<I thought we were discussing a Siemens Simovert controller? I found
this snippet in a training manual, after Googling some..

"The MICROMASTER 440 has an RS485 serial interface that
allows communication with computers (PCs) or programmable
logic controllers (PLCs). The standard RS485 protocol is called
USS protocol and is programmable up to 57.6 K baud. Siemens
PROFIBUS protocol is also available. It is programmable up
to 12 M baud. Contact your Siemens sales representative for
information on USS and PROFIBUS protocol."

http://static.scribd.com/docs/d6x4ogqbqwc4.pdf
Pg 56, though it is discussed a few other times.

This doesn't look like the controller you are using (don't know what
you have, but this sounds like a controller for industrial
situations), but if Siemens has a protocol for industrial AC motor
controllers, it stands to reason they'd use something similar for EV
controllers.>

Thanks for the lead. Google also turns up this document for Simovert which 
looks interesting http://www.fer.hr/_download/repository/vc33_kompend_e.pdf
I will have to look closely to see if any of this can apply to the Simovert 
6SV1.

Victor Tikhonov wrote:

<Alternatively, you can try EVision - this gadget allows to record
voltage and current (on battery DC side) as well as power during driving
and charging.>

I think EVision looks great but not for my application. I really want to 
integrate the data from the two inverters including motor info and fault 
messages. Predictive "Laps to go" software could use EVision data but I hope 
to utilize the amps, volts data already available from the inverters.

Thanks everybody for the help,

Cliff
www.ProEV.com








------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 12:29:24 -0500
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G wrote:
> People have said that for years.  They sell the magnet for motorcycles
> to do just that.  Most don't work.  I thought they were actually a fiber
> of light that gets pinched when weight is on the slab. 

The usual traffic sensor is a loop of wire buried in the pavement. It 
forms an inductor. The circuit measures the inductance of this loop. 
When a vehicle drives over it, the iron and steel in its chassis 
increases the loop's inductance. This is sensed to trigger the "vehicle 
present" indicator.

A permanent magnet won't have any effect, except that due to the small 
amount of iron it adds. Water, snow, wet leaves etc. only have a trivial 
effect. Interestingly, conductive non-ferrous metals like copper or 
aluminum *decrease* the inductance of the loop. My old Comutavan had 
plenty of iron, but had even more aluminum and so did not trigger these 
vehicle detectors.

If you need something really small and light to trigger it, you could 
use a loop of wire with a variable capacitor across the ends. You'd have 
to tune it to a lower frequency than the traffic sensor was using. When 
your coil passed over theirs, it would pull their frequency down to 
trigger it. Unfortunately, this method only works for that certain 
make/model of traffic detector. There is no "standard" frequency for 
these things, so they vary from place to place.

[When I was in college, they had a traffic sensor to control the gate to 
enter the parking lot. As a prank, we made a loop out of coat hanger 
wire with a capacitor across the end, and tuned it to be detected. The 
loop was duct taped to the gate itself. Every time the gate went down, 
it detected a car, and opened it. Now it didn't see a car, and closed 
the gate, which went back up again, etc. The gate went up-down-up-down 
until the car counter thought the lot was full, at which time it stopped 
letting more people in. People were confronted with an empty lot and a 
sign that said "Full"!]

-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net



------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 13:29:43 -0400
From: "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Roadster Charging Efficiency...
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=original

Joseph wrote:

< How efficient is the charge-discharge cycle for the ProEV?>

I don't know. We have never checked. We have a Fluke clamp on meter so it 
would not be hard to check.

Cliff
www.ProEV.com






------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 13:38:57 -0400
From: Jeremy Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zivan vs. others
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed

That's odd, I have a 192v pack and I have an NG3 that works fine.  It  
only puts in about 8 amps but it is just my onboard charger.  I have  
an NG5 in my garage that is for the higher amp charging.
The NG3 is slow but it can fully charge the pack.
Lately I've been thinking that I should get rid of both of them and  
just get one of Rich's chargers since it could do the job of both of  
them (although sacrificing the isolation).
I don't think there is any harm in not letting a charge cycle  
complete.  I think the problems arise when the pack is chronically  
undercharged or discharged too low.
The charger shouldn't be stressed at all by ending the cycle early.

                        -Jeremy

On Oct 2, 2007, at 9:52 AM, Steve Kobb wrote:

>
> A few additional questions for the group:
>
> 1. Does anyone use the thermal sensor option? If so, has it  
> improved any
> aspect of your charging?
>
> 2. A friend of mine is using a 115v NG3 on a 156v pack. He's never  
> reported
> any problem with this setup. I was surprised, therefore, to see the  
> Zivan
> specs on electroauto.com.
>
> Their table shows that a 115v NG3 is for packs between 96v and  
> 144v, whereas
> the 230v model should be used for packs between 96v and 288v. That  
> suggests
> that my friend should be using the 230v version. Does that mean  
> that he's
> undercharging his batts or harming them in anyway? Is he stressing  
> the Zivan
> by applying it to a pack that is outside the recommended voltage?
>
> (I'm asking because I'm converting a truck to 156v. Soon, I'll have  
> to buy a
> charger and will have to decide between these models.)
>
> 3. Hypothetical scenario: Let's say that I'm in the middle of a  
> charge and
> need to use the vehicle for an emergency. In other words, the Zivan  
> would
> not be able to complete its charge cycle because I have to turn it off
> prematurely. What -- if any -- harm would be done, either to the  
> charger or
> to the pack?
>
> Thanks for any guidance you may have.
>
> Steve Kobb
> -- 
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Zivan-vs.- 
> others-tf4550709s25542.html#a12999293
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive  
> at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 10:51:55 -0700
From: Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zivan vs. others
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed

An option to consider would be two Zivans, one 120V for opportunity  
charges and one 240 for quick charging-
On Oct 2, 2007, at 10:38 AM, Jeremy Green wrote:

> That's odd, I have a 192v pack and I have an NG3 that works fine.  It
> only puts in about 8 amps but it is just my onboard charger.  I have
> an NG5 in my garage that is for the higher amp charging.
> The NG3 is slow but it can fully charge the pack.
> Lately I've been thinking that I should get rid of both of them and
> just get one of Rich's chargers since it could do the job of both of
> them (although sacrificing the isolation).
> I don't think there is any harm in not letting a charge cycle
> complete.  I think the problems arise when the pack is chronically
> undercharged or discharged too low.
> The charger shouldn't be stressed at all by ending the cycle early.
>
>                       -Jeremy
>
> On Oct 2, 2007, at 9:52 AM, Steve Kobb wrote:
>
>>
>> A few additional questions for the group:
>>
>> 1. Does anyone use the thermal sensor option? If so, has it
>> improved any
>> aspect of your charging?
>>
>> 2. A friend of mine is using a 115v NG3 on a 156v pack. He's never
>> reported
>> any problem with this setup. I was surprised, therefore, to see the
>> Zivan
>> specs on electroauto.com.
>>
>> Their table shows that a 115v NG3 is for packs between 96v and
>> 144v, whereas
>> the 230v model should be used for packs between 96v and 288v. That
>> suggests
>> that my friend should be using the 230v version. Does that mean
>> that he's
>> undercharging his batts or harming them in anyway? Is he stressing
>> the Zivan
>> by applying it to a pack that is outside the recommended voltage?
>>
>> (I'm asking because I'm converting a truck to 156v. Soon, I'll have
>> to buy a
>> charger and will have to decide between these models.)
>>
>> 3. Hypothetical scenario: Let's say that I'm in the middle of a
>> charge and
>> need to use the vehicle for an emergency. In other words, the Zivan
>> would
>> not be able to complete its charge cycle because I have to turn it  
>> off
>> prematurely. What -- if any -- harm would be done, either to the
>> charger or
>> to the pack?
>>
>> Thanks for any guidance you may have.
>>
>> Steve Kobb
>> -- 
>> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Zivan-vs.-
>> others-tf4550709s25542.html#a12999293
>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive
>> at Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

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