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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Doug shame on you. (Peter Gabrielsson)
   2. Re: spot price of lead (Hunter Cook)
   3. The ForkenSwift is legal! (Darin at-


Message: 1
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 11:25:02 -0700
From: "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Doug shame on you.
To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,      "Electric Vehicle
        Discussion List" <>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

My 10 year old Panasonic EV-95 modules were recently tested and their
measured charge acceptance rate is around 2.75kW per module. I think
the RAV 4 uses 26 modules so 50kW recharge should be no problem, at
least below ~80% SOC.

What it does to the life of the cell is another issue though.

On 10/11/07, Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> They can't hide this:
> Above is a tremendous demonstration of what can be done with a Rav4 EV.  I
> was not aware that the 200 amp regen input had been hacked.  Doug was
> talking about all the modifications he and others had done on his car.  Very
> impressive.  Using an aftermarket charger he can use up to 12kw solar or
> other source(this is the shame part) to charge.  If you can fully charge up
> in less than an an hour at 12kw the possible 50kw should charge up in 10
> minutes.(as fast as a gas pump)  Are there heating problems at this rate?
> Anyway Doug mentions (this is the shame part) you could put a gas motor in
> and be better than the Volt.  Well I think the Pure EV is the pinnacle of
> automotive engineering.(well maybe the electric train but lets not go there.
> They will never electrify the roads)  The Prius is training wheels & the
> volt just less training wheels.  The only reason to have a gas powered motor
> in an EV is the lack of fast charging which you just demonstrated (or just
> plain worry about running out of energy.).  Is it needed  in an emergency.
> Maybe.  But if something so bad happens that you lose the grid you can't
> pump gas & besides you have solar charging.  Lets see them pump oil out of
> the ground and into a gas tank.  Doug please explain why you are back
> peddling.  I have always known that the ev's for sale list was political.  I
> have agreed with you most of the time but adding a motor like the long
> ranger AC propulsion makes should be for delivery convienence.  I just don't
> want it in my car.  GM wants one in your car to complicate it and suck more
> money out of you.  Remember service including oil changes is a billion
> dollar business.  I say nice simple quick charging EV.  No gas motor thank
> you very much.  I think putting a gas motor in a Rav4 EV is shame.  Lawrence
> Rhodes.......
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see



Message: 2
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:26:32 -0500
From: Hunter Cook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] spot price of lead
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Man, I sure wish I could find a recycler like that...just went through
my yellow pages and the best I could find was a place that said they
would buy "just the lead" (I didn't go into a discussion about the lead
plates not being strictly elemental lead...) for $.30/lb. The others who
said they would take batteries all wanted to give $2-4 per battery.
Ridiculous...can't you get the core fee (like $10?) back anyplace that
sells batteries? I understand my US-145's have 50lb or so of lead in
them, so I could get $15 per if I wanted to dismantle them, but if this
company then renegged on the deal (hey, those aren't lead! That's lead
sulfate!) I wouldn't be able to get core fees back, right? Or would it
be easy just to put them back together?

Just kind of wondering. Seems like the price of the lead shouldn't be
hurting us as bad as it is...after all, it's not like we're asking them
for more lead than we're giving back. But the core fees are regulated
and fixed...


On Mon, 2007-10-08 at 07:55 -0600, Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> We just took a pallet of used batteries (24 L-16's and a few T-105's)
> to a recycler, and he gave us $0.60/lb on the spot.  About $380 for
> the pallet.   Not bad, considering that lead isn't even all the weight
> in a battery.
> Z
> On 10/8/07, ampaynz1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > So would it make sense to start collecting dead car batteries when I can 
> > spot
> > one. I've seen them around various dumpsters. Now it would be necessary to
> > extract all the lead and melt it down into a pure form to make its value
> > increase. Testing this could be done roughly by measuring the density.
> > Melting temp of lead is 621 ?F. When a person has one ton of pure lead
> > melted down into square cubes of say 50lbs each. How does one go about
> > selling it and to who? Now the money made can be used to buy a new battery
> > pack for the EV vehicle. I looked up the exact price for Standard Lead and
> > it is $1994.50 USD / metric ton and that is from the LME exchange and 1
> > Metric Ton = 2204.6 Pounds.  So 60lbs on lead is worth $54.28 based on
> > october 8th trading data. Sam's club in SW florida still sells their 6 V
> > flooded for like $61 + $9 core + $1.50 extra state tax, then you get 6%
> > state tax.
> >    As a side note its competitor Nickel is $50,495 USD / Tonne and thats an
> > increase over lead by 25.3 X cost in weight.
> > Andrew Payne
> >
> >
> >
> > R. Matt Milliron wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >   Just pulled my first bad battery.
> > >
> > >   "It's dead Jim."
> > >
> > >  It did not survive the two year enforced hibernation/wait for my car
> > > to get running.  The replacement battery is now twice what I paid for
> > > the original.  I checked the price for new lead just now.  Spot is
> > > 1.65 American.  That makes the lead in the 65 pound battery that is
> > > going to cost me $80, worth $99.  At the rate metal prices are
> > > climbing it won't be long till lithium is cheaper than flooded.
> > >
> > >   Other wise the other nine batteries are doing well and getting
> > > stronger every day.  I am driving the car into town (6.6 miles total)
> > > every day to get them exercised.
> > >
> > >   R. M. Milliron
> > >
> > > 1981 Jet Electrica
> > >
> > >
> > >   This machine has been garaged for 17 years.
> > > I am upgrading it and getting it running. Tabitha,
> > > my daughter, named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
> > > electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For subscription options, see
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context: 
> >
> > Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> >
> _______________________________________________
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 11:37:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Darin at-" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] The ForkenSwift is legal!
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Well, as of about 2 hours ago, the ForkenSwift *legally* joined the EV fleet
- it's insured and plated!

Turns out getting insurance was the trickiest step to date.  Several
companies turned me down flat because it's a conversion (despite having
passed inspection).  It took a while to find a company hungry enough to take
my money and cover the massive risk of this 35 mph top-speed screamer!

The amazing thing is we managed to stick to our "beer budget" motto, and got
the vehicle to this point for less than $700 all in, thanks to some
motivated scrounging for cheap used parts, a few generous donations (some
cabling & hand-me-down floodies), and a lot of blind luck (we had no idea
what we were doing when this all started).

Of course there's still a pile of improvements/refinements to be made to the
car (that goes without saying), but at least the subsequent test runs around
the neighbourhood can take place without the threat of getting busted!

So: a geniune "thanks!" to everyone on the EVDL who has helped the project
along to date, whether through simple inspiration, or freely offered expert
advice & information.  It takes a community to raise an EV!

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End of EV Digest, Vol 3, Issue 33

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