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Today's Topics:

   1. Clutchless transmission question (Hunter Cook)
   2. 1998 City El for sale (UK) - Upgraded with Lithium Ions!
      (Nikki Bloomfield)
   3. Re: Vacuum pump success! (Roland Wiench)
   4. Re: Vacuum pump success! (Hunter Cook)
   5. Re: Someone please shoot this idea down (Lee Hart)
   6. Re: Clutchless transmission question (Lee Hart)
   7. Re: Clutchless transmission question (Roland Wiench)
   8. Re: Vacuum pump success! (Marty Hewes)
   9. Re: Someone please shoot this idea down (FRED JEANETTE MERTENS)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 11:47:04 -0500
From: Hunter Cook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Clutchless transmission question
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain

Hi all,

Hope you aren't tiring of my relentless noob questions.

My truck has a 4-speed manual with no clutch. This seems fairly common
on conversions from what I've seen, but I'm a bit confused on how to
drive it. When I shift from one gear to the next, it sounds like the
syncronizers are screaming pretty loud. This doesn't surprise me much,
and my natural inclination is to try to float the transmission, like I
was driving a big-rig or something. But this raises two problems. First,
I understand that revving the motor without a load (e.g. in nuetral)
like I would want to when downshifting is a big no-no. And second, when
upshifting there isn't any way to drop the motor rpm...you take it out
of gear and the motor keeps spinning rather than immediately falling off
like an ICE. I've successfully floated it upshifting a couple of times
by simply shifting into nuetral and waiting for the motor to spin down
to an appropriate speed on its own before shifting to the next
gear...but that takes a really long time.

So, what am I supposed to be doing? Is it OK to very gently rev the
motor to float downshift? Is there some way to slow the motor down while
it's coasting in nuetral? Should I not be trying to do this at all, and
it's just OK to shift with the motor off-speed? If someone could
enlighten me a bit about the proper driving technique for an electric
motor on a clutchless manual, I would really appreciate it.

Thanks

Hunter



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:10:11 +0100
From: Nikki Bloomfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] 1998 City El for sale (UK) - Upgraded with Lithium
        Ions!
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed

For Sale:

1998 City El Targa Top three-wheeled EV.
Buy the star of http://youtube.com/watch?v=a399fIxp9-E . Since the  
review was made the car has been completely upgraded from it's  
original lead acid 36 Volt spec to 43 Volts of 100AH Thundersky  
Lithium Ion batteries, complete with Reap System's fabulous battery  
management system.  To buy the BMS alone would cost ?500, with the  
batteries costing a further ?1,500 or more. The lithium Ion batteries  
in it are pre 2006 cells and still hold a decent charge.

Prior to upgrade the City El did approximately 20 miles on a charge  
and had a top speed of 35 mph. The Lithium Ion upgrade has lightened  
the EV by over 70 kilos and as a result of the upgrade the range is  
now up to 50 miles (if driven carefully) and a top speed of  45 mph  
(up to 50mph if you're brave enough!) It out accelerates a standard  
City El and will climb all but the steepest hills without a single  
problem. The upgrade has completely transformed the car and makes it  
an ideal City Car for the UK. It is tax exempt and is MOT'd until  
October 2008.

The City El has done 3,350 miles from new and has recently had new  
rear springs, shocks and bushings.

I have some spares to go with the vehicle. I'm selling it as I need a  
bigger EV so am upgrading! This is the perfect starter EV for any  
enthusiast and can be driven on a motorcycle or car licence. A 16  
year old with the correct moped licence can also drive this but the  
vehicle would need restricting to 30 mph. I'm now on the lookout for  
an EV big enough to help me go to and from the DIY store (we've just  
brought our first house) as well as carry more than one person!

Asking price of ?3,500 ONO. This also includes a custom-built trailer  
to transport the City El long distances.

Please email me for more information, or telephone me (UK) on 0117  
965 7424 or 07901 553308.

The car will be available from (hopefully) the 31st October.

Photos of the City El can be found online at http://www.austinev.org/ 
evalbum/947

Nikki Bloomfield









------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 10:52:42 -0600
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vacuum pump success!
To: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,     "Electric Vehicle Discussion
        List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

Some vacuum pumps have a relief value that by passes when its up to the 
maximum vacuum it is design for and may be popping off if your motor limit 
switch is not set below this limit.  It may have a check value that clicks 
on and off while you are starting up and the vacuum is still below 15 in.hg.

If you are pumping the vacuum to the open air with out a secondary vacuum 
check value in the vacuum canister, then the vacuum will not get high enough 
to quiet down.

I used several brake booster vacuum check values in the main vacuum line. In 
addition to the one that may be inside the vacuum pump, I place one after 
the vacuum canister. Some canisters have a place to plug one in.  Also one 
at the brake booster and if you need a vacuum source for any other devices, 
a vacuum check value is also place in the accessory line.

The vacuum pump noise will be the loudest at start up, because there is not 
enough vacuum in the lines to keep the vacuum pump check value fully close. 
As the vacuum builds up to above 10 in.hg. it is some what less noisy. At 15 
in.hg.. I just can barely hear it, and at 22 in.hg., the tires make more 
noise rolling over a rough surface road.

A vacuum pump is pumping air out of a enclose container, so you cannot have 
that pump inside a canister, other wise you are pumping the air back in. 
Some vacuum pumps have a foam muffler that is place on the exhaust.  You 
could try connecting a rubber hose on the exhaust and attaching a soft foam 
rubber that allows air to go through it.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vacuum pump success!


> From: Hunter Cook
> >> connected to an unused ignition wire for the switched 12v, which
> >> turned out not to have nearly the current the pump needed.
>
> The wire to the ignition coil has a resistor in series with it (often 
> disguised as an undersized piece of wire).
>
> >> Now I know why everybody talks so much about quieting these things
> >> down... it's way louder than the rest of the truck. Thinking
> >> seriously about that idea of putting the pump inside the reservoir
> >> where the vacuum will inhibit the sound.
>
> From: Marty Hewes
> > I suspect the pump might overheat in there?  No air, no cooling.
> > Could it also pull lubricants past seals?
>
> Cooling and brush life are worse in a vacuum. However, the vacuum pump's 
> motor shouldn't run more than a few minutes per hour in normal driving, so 
> this has little practical effect on life.
>
>
> --
> "Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 11:54:27 -0500
From: Hunter Cook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vacuum pump success!
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain

On Sun, 2007-10-21 at 09:21 -0700, Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
> The other issue is the volume of gases you are trying to pump have to go
> some where. As with a compress what goes in must come out some where. If you
> place it in the reservoir then it is just pumping and venting on itself
> unless creating no vacuum. 

I sort of assumed that porting the exhaust out of the reservoir went
without saying ;-) It ends up looking sort of "inside-out" ...there
would be a fitting pointing into the res that the exhaust would attach
to, and the vacuum output wouldn't have any fitting on it at all, but
would be free inside the res...the opposite of what it looks like now
with the exhaust free and a hose on the vac side.

> There are rubber shock mounts out there that
> have  threaded bolt on both ends for mount high vibration and noise
> damping.  I think my local hardware store  ACE stocks them.  You may want to
> try them.

I'll probably check that out. Thanks.

> 
> On 10/21/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > From: Hunter Cook
> > >> connected to an unused ignition wire for the switched 12v, which
> > >> turned out not to have nearly the current the pump needed.
> >
> > The wire to the ignition coil has a resistor in series with it (often
> > disguised as an undersized piece of wire).
> >
> > >> Now I know why everybody talks so much about quieting these things
> > >> down... it's way louder than the rest of the truck. Thinking
> > >> seriously about that idea of putting the pump inside the reservoir
> > >> where the vacuum will inhibit the sound.
> >
> > From: Marty Hewes
> > > I suspect the pump might overheat in there?  No air, no cooling.
> > > Could it also pull lubricants past seals?
> >
> > Cooling and brush life are worse in a vacuum. However, the vacuum pump's
> > motor shouldn't run more than a few minutes per hour in normal driving, so
> > this has little practical effect on life.
> >
> >
> > --
> > "Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 10:03:29 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Someone please shoot this idea down
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Electric Vehicle Discussion List
        <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
        
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

From: Peter VanDerWal
> In all of these ideas, the power STILL has to go through the
> controller. Since POWER is the only thing that really matters,
> all of these ideas are basically pointless, even if they did work.
> You are still limited by the power you can get through the
> controller.

The problem is that the controller delivers its peak power at one point; fully 
on and at current limit. Let's say you have a Curtis 1231 controller, rated 144 
V x 500 A = 72 KW. You only get this peak power at one point.

A series motor connected to this controller only draws this full 72 KW at one 
specific RPM. If it is turning faster or slower, you get less power.

So these various "schemes" are attempts to get a broader power band.

Conventional ICE cars have exactly the same problem. They use mechanical 
transmissions to attempt to hold the engine at its best RPM as you accelerate. 
EV conversions usually keep this transmission, and use it the same way.

But most purpose-built EVs dispense with the transmission. They accomplish its 
purpose some other way, electrically.

The oldest solution (used on trains buses, etc. since th e1930's) is a sepex 
motor. By powering the field and aramture separately, you can change the RPM at 
which the motor draws the full controller current over at a broad range -- at 
least 5:1. The side effect is a more complicated motor.

The usual solution today is to do it in the controller. A controller like the 
Zilla can be set to draw a constant 500 A battery current even as the motor 
current goes as high as 2000 A. This allows about a 4:1 range in motor RPM at 
peak power.

The comments in this thread are wandering around these two approaches, 
combining and modifying them in an attempt to find other workable methods.


--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 10:24:19 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Clutchless transmission question
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
        
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

From: Hunter Cook
> Hope you aren't tiring of my relentless noob questions.

No. It's the nature of mailing lists like this that we answer the same 
questions over and over. It would be nice if people checked the archives first, 
but they don't...

> My truck has a 4-speed manual with no clutch... I'm a bit confused
> on how to drive it... syncronizers are screaming pretty loud...
> Is it OK to very gently rev the motor to float downshift?
> Is there some way to slow the motor down while it's coasting in
> nuetral?

Clutchless shifting depends a lot on the transmission. Some transmissions have 
weak synchronizers, and do it really poorly. Others have strong synchronizers, 
and shift so well that you can hardly tell that there's no clutch.

In my limited experience, the transmission in my 1974 Datsun worked badly 
clutchless. The 3-speed Borg Warner in my ComutaVan (from 1960's Studebakers) 
worked well, as does the 4-speed transaxle in my 1980 Renault LeCar EV.

The danger from revving the motor in neutral in an EV is that the motor speeds 
up VERY QUICKLY, and makes very little noise to warn you of how fast it's 
going. It's very easy to blow it up from over-revving. Here are a few ways to 
fix this:

 - Add a tachometer, so you can see what you're doing.
 - Add a RPM limiter, that senses high RPM and cuts or reduces power
   to the motor to prevent it from going higher.
 - Add something that limits the potbox resistance when in neutral,
   so the controller can't provide enough voltage to over-rev.

Slowing the motor down faster when upshifting can also be done several ways:

 - Use a controller that has regenerative braking.
 - Drive some parasitic loads off the motor, like they do in ICEs.
   (alternator, power steering, air conditioning compressor, vacuum
   pump, etc.) You can arrange things to deliberately switch these
   loads on when you shift into neutral and release the accelerator
   pedal to brake the motor as fast as you like.


--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 11:34:05 -0600
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Clutchless transmission question
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

If you are running a wide ratio transmission with straight cut gears, it is 
about impossible to make down shifts.  This is what my old transmission was, 
which had a 1st gear ratio starting out at 3.5:1 and then drops to 2nd gear 
at 2.0:1 which are the normal gearing for lite weight vehicles with small 
engines.

My other transmission has a close ratio which is 2.2:1 1st gear, 1.6:1 2nd 
gear, 1.3:1 3rd gear which had bevel gears.  With this type of transmission 
is connected to a engine, and you let up on the accelerator, you then shift 
the gear lever to neutral, the engine because of its compression slows down 
more than then the drive line, so you have to give it a little more gas to 
bring the engine up to the same speed of the driveline and it will slip 
right in.

With a electric motor, when you let up on the accelerator, a motor if not 
driving a accessory will it is free wheeling or maintaining a higher speed 
then the drive line.  If I slip the transmission out of gear while my EV is 
still moving, and coming to a stop, my motor may still be rotating.  I 
sometimes do this on purpose, so when I start apply power to the motor, my 
motor may still be rotating which may decreases the starting motor ampere. 
All I do is depress the clutch to perform this trick.

The problem here is with a motor and you slip the transmission to neutral, 
the drive line is slowing down more than the motor.  The only time I can 
make the drive line go the same speed of the motor or even more, is when I 
coasting down a hill. Sometimes a close ratio will work for down shifting. 
Up shifting is no problem, because all you do is reduce the motor rpm to 
match the drive line rpm which is normally higher because you was in a lower 
gear and going up to a higher gear.

To solve this problem is that I am running a rotating inverter alternator 
off the front of the pilot shaft of the motor, which slows the motor like a 
compression of a engine, which I need when driving on very icy down hills.

I can turn off the regulator circuit to this alternator which turns off the 
charging to a onboard battery if I want to gain speed on some down slope 
hills, so I can roller coast the next one.

I am going to make a modification to this accessory drive system, where I 
can select a AUTO mode, where If the the motor is under power from the 
controller, the accessory drive is driven separate by accessory electric 
drive motors.  When the main motor is not under power, but the EV is still 
moving, the main motor will then drive the accessory units.

Roland






----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Hunter Cook" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 10:47 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Clutchless transmission question


> Hi all,
>
> Hope you aren't tiring of my relentless noob questions.
>
> My truck has a 4-speed manual with no clutch. This seems fairly common
> on conversions from what I've seen, but I'm a bit confused on how to
> drive it. When I shift from one gear to the next, it sounds like the
> syncronizers are screaming pretty loud. This doesn't surprise me much,
> and my natural inclination is to try to float the transmission, like I
> was driving a big-rig or something. But this raises two problems. First,
> I understand that revving the motor without a load (e.g. in nuetral)
> like I would want to when downshifting is a big no-no. And second, when
> upshifting there isn't any way to drop the motor rpm...you take it out
> of gear and the motor keeps spinning rather than immediately falling off
> like an ICE. I've successfully floated it upshifting a couple of times
> by simply shifting into nuetral and waiting for the motor to spin down
> to an appropriate speed on its own before shifting to the next
> gear...but that takes a really long time.
>
> So, what am I supposed to be doing? Is it OK to very gently rev the
> motor to float downshift? Is there some way to slow the motor down while
> it's coasting in nuetral? Should I not be trying to do this at all, and
> it's just OK to shift with the motor off-speed? If someone could
> enlighten me a bit about the proper driving technique for an electric
> motor on a clutchless manual, I would really appreciate it.
>
> Thanks
>
> Hunter
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 12:41:41 -0500
From: "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vacuum pump success!
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
        reply-type=original

Anybody tried mounting the pump solidly to something heavy (difficult to 
vibrate) that is in turn rubber isolated, like maybe a motor mounting plate? 
I suspect if it was solidly mounted to something heavy, it couldn't vibrate 
as much, and therefore couldn't give off as much audio.

Marty

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Hunter Cook" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vacuum pump success!


> On Sun, 2007-10-21 at 09:21 -0700, Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
>> The other issue is the volume of gases you are trying to pump have to go
>> some where. As with a compress what goes in must come out some where. If 
>> you
>> place it in the reservoir then it is just pumping and venting on itself
>> unless creating no vacuum.
>
> I sort of assumed that porting the exhaust out of the reservoir went
> without saying ;-) It ends up looking sort of "inside-out" ...there
> would be a fitting pointing into the res that the exhaust would attach
> to, and the vacuum output wouldn't have any fitting on it at all, but
> would be free inside the res...the opposite of what it looks like now
> with the exhaust free and a hose on the vac side.
>
>> There are rubber shock mounts out there that
>> have  threaded bolt on both ends for mount high vibration and noise
>> damping.  I think my local hardware store  ACE stocks them.  You may want 
>> to
>> try them.
>
> I'll probably check that out. Thanks.
>
>>
>> On 10/21/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >
>> > From: Hunter Cook
>> > >> connected to an unused ignition wire for the switched 12v, which
>> > >> turned out not to have nearly the current the pump needed.
>> >
>> > The wire to the ignition coil has a resistor in series with it (often
>> > disguised as an undersized piece of wire).
>> >
>> > >> Now I know why everybody talks so much about quieting these things
>> > >> down... it's way louder than the rest of the truck. Thinking
>> > >> seriously about that idea of putting the pump inside the reservoir
>> > >> where the vacuum will inhibit the sound.
>> >
>> > From: Marty Hewes
>> > > I suspect the pump might overheat in there?  No air, no cooling.
>> > > Could it also pull lubricants past seals?
>> >
>> > Cooling and brush life are worse in a vacuum. However, the vacuum 
>> > pump's
>> > motor shouldn't run more than a few minutes per hour in normal driving, 
>> > so
>> > this has little practical effect on life.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > "Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
>> > --
>> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > For subscription options, see
>> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 12:52:56 -0500
From: "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Someone please shoot this idea down
To: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,     "Electric Vehicle Discussion
        List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

HHEY  mike  tell me more about the Hilton propane heater and pump . what are 
you using it for and how ?  
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Lee Hart<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List<mailto:ev@lists.sjsu.edu> 
  Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 12:03 PM
  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Someone please shoot this idea down


  From: Peter VanDerWal
  > In all of these ideas, the power STILL has to go through the
  > controller. Since POWER is the only thing that really matters,
  > all of these ideas are basically pointless, even if they did work.
  > You are still limited by the power you can get through the
  > controller.

  The problem is that the controller delivers its peak power at one point; 
fully on and at current limit. Let's say you have a Curtis 1231 controller, 
rated 144 V x 500 A = 72 KW. You only get this peak power at one point.

  A series motor connected to this controller only draws this full 72 KW at one 
specific RPM. If it is turning faster or slower, you get less power.

  So these various "schemes" are attempts to get a broader power band.

  Conventional ICE cars have exactly the same problem. They use mechanical 
transmissions to attempt to hold the engine at its best RPM as you accelerate. 
EV conversions usually keep this transmission, and use it the same way.

  But most purpose-built EVs dispense with the transmission. They accomplish 
its purpose some other way, electrically.

  The oldest solution (used on trains buses, etc. since th e1930's) is a sepex 
motor. By powering the field and aramture separately, you can change the RPM at 
which the motor draws the full controller current over at a broad range -- at 
least 5:1. The side effect is a more complicated motor.

  The usual solution today is to do it in the controller. A controller like the 
Zilla can be set to draw a constant 500 A battery current even as the motor 
current goes as high as 2000 A. This allows about a 4:1 range in motor RPM at 
peak power.

  The comments in this thread are wandering around these two approaches, 
combining and modifying them in an attempt to find other workable methods.


  --
  "Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
  --
  Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

  _______________________________________________
  For subscription options, see
  
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev<http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev>


------------------------------

_______________________________________________
EV@lists.sjsu.edu
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

End of EV Digest, Vol 3, Issue 60
*********************************

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