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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: AVCON INLET NEEDED (Matthew Trevaskis)
   2. Re: Plug in Hybrid sighting in southern AZ (Zeke Yewdall)
   3. Re: Batteries sat too long (at very low drain rate)
      (Roland Wiench)
   4. Re: Fwd: 3 pole circuit breaker (Mike Willmon)
   5. Dangit; worst outcome on heater relay? (Bob Bath)
   6. Re: Press release on Firefly "Oasis" battery (Jeff Shanab)
   7. Re: Question on Series DC motor ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
   8. Re: Fwd: 3 pole circuit breaker (Lee Hart)
   9. Re: Question on Series DC motor (Lee Hart)
  10. Re: Batteries sat too long (at very low drain rate) (Lee Hart)
  11. Re: Kelly controllers (Travis Gintz)
  12. Re: Kelly controllers (Bill & Nancy)
  13. Re: Batteries sat too long (at very low drain rate)
      (Lawrence Rhodes)
  14. Re: Fwd: 3 pole circuit breaker (Roger Stockton)
  15. Re: Kelly controllers (dale henderson)
  16. Smoke screen S10 at Pavillions Nov.3 ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
  17. Re: AVCON INLET NEEDED (Evan Tuer)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 14:17:08 +0000
From: Matthew Trevaskis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AVCON INLET NEEDED
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"

Evan,

I have just received the new price list from Mar?chal:  the Euro-spec inlets
(for the vehicles) start from around ?75+VAT+handling (US$150) and the
connectors (for the charging cable) start from around ?84+VAT+handling
(US$170) depending on which terminals you require.

Kind regards,

Matt

-- 
Matthew Trevaskis
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

For electric vehicles, recharging installations and accessories
eco-drive
PO Box 255
PENZANCE TR18 9AA
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 173 636 1207
Fax*: +44 173 636 1677
www.eco-drive.co.uk
*Fax modem will receive faxes electronically (without paper) 8am-6pm UK time
(midnight-10am PST, 3am-1pm EST) Monday-Saturday




------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:28:21 -0600
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Plug in Hybrid sighting in southern AZ
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Here in Boulder, there is an outfit that will convert anyone's car.
Not sure if that is what you define as "available to the general
public" but it sounds pretty good to me.  $20k for the 5kWh conversion
and $32k for the 10kWh conversion, IIRC.  I think they use the A123
cells.  They also offer conversions for the Escape and I think maybe
the Highlander is coming.

Z

On 11/3/07, Michael Mohlere <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My understanding is that the Prius plug-in kits are not available to
> the general public....is that true or not?
>
> On 11/3/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Yup, that's the one.
> >
> > Huh, I leave town for a few months and someone in my backyard upgrades a
> > Prius.  I'll have to stop by and check it out sometime.
> >
> > > Was it this car?
> > >
> > > http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/groups/g_19725787/f254/__sr_/a81b.jpg?grQ.BLHBS8pU1UIr
> > >
> > >
> > > http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/groups/g_19725787/f254/__sr_/844d.jpg?grQ.BLHBluRIYkIm
> > >
> > >
> > > http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/groups/g_19725787/f254/__sr_/cae1.jpg?grQ.BLHBrgofFOnK
> > >
> > >
> > > http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/groups/g_19725787/f254/__sr_/cc3c.jpg?grQ.BLHB4xNd8HGY
> > >
> > >
> > > Jerry, stopped by and visited with the president of
> > > the Dallas EV Association.  These photos if the links
> > > don't work, are at the Yahoo Group for "NTEAA" North
> > > Texas Electric Auto Association.
> > >
> > > M.Barkley
> > > www.nteaa.org
> > > www.texomaev.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> It probably belonged to EVJerry of Bisbee AZ  He
> > >> just came back from The
> > >> Maker Faire in Austin TX where he had his Prius
> > >> converted. He's really happy
> > >> about it.
> > >>
> > >> Rush
> > >> Tucson, AZ
> > >> www.ironandwood.org
> > >> www.Airphibian.com
> > >> www.TEVA2.com
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >> To: " Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
> > >> <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
> > >> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 8:23 AM
> > >> Subject: [EVDL] Plug in Hybrid sighting in southern
> > >> AZ
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >I was riding my bicycle into town yesterday when I
> > >> was passed by a
> > >> > modified Prius.  At least I assume it was, it had
> > >> stickers all over
> > >> > claiming it was a PHEV, 100+ mpg, etc.
> > >> >
> > >> > Pretty cool, especially considering I was on the
> > >> south side of nowhere
> > >> > when it passed me.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > --
> > >> > If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4
> > >> lines of legalistic
> > >> > junk at the end; then you are specifically
> > >> authorizing me to do whatever I
> > >> > wish with the message.  By posting the message you
> > >> agree that your long
> > >> > legalistic signature is void.
> > >> >
> > >> > _______________________________________________
> > >> > For subscription options, see
> > >> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > --
> > >> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > >> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > >> > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.19/1105
> > >> - Release Date:
> > >> > 11/2/2007 11:04 AM
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> For subscription options, see
> > >> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For subscription options, see
> > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> > junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> > wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
> > legalistic signature is void.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
>
> --
> Michael Mohlere
> My EV: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/296.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:35:19 -0600
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Batteries sat too long (at very low drain rate)
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

Hello Steve,

The electrolyte of a lead acid battery is a mixture of water (H2O) at a 
specific gravity of 1.0 SG and sulfuric acid (H2SO4 at a specific gravity of 
1.8 SG.

We then mix 3 parts of H2SO4 and 5 parts of H2O which becomes:

        1.8+1.8+1.8+1.0+1.0+1.0+1.0+1.0+1.0 = 10.4

The average specific gravity of these 8 parts are 10.4/8 = 1.30 SG

When these compounds are initially mix, there is a increase in heat, which 
makes the specific gravity read about 1.30 SG.  Let it cool and it may come 
down to 1.275 SG at about 80 F.

The negative grids are pure lead with sponge lead (Pb) pasted into the grids 
to form a plate.  The positive grids are pure lead with lead oxide (PbO2) 
that is pasted into the grids to form a plate.

These two plates are then inserted into the liquid medium call a electrolyte 
which does a chemical exchange from the positive plate (PbO2) to the 
electrolyte (H2O + H2SO4) to the negative plate (Pb).

The discharge of current is from the positive plate to the electrolyte and 
to the negative.  The charger current if from the negative to the 
electrolyte and to the positive plate.

In the discharge cycle the O2 from the positive plate combines with the 
electrolyte which forms H2O + H2SO4 + O2.  One part of the O2 or just O1 
combines with the H2 of the H2S04 which makes the electrolyte solution more 
water (H2O + H20 + SO4).

The SO4 (Sulfate) is now separated from the H@ (Hydrogen), is starts to 
combine with the negative plate (PbS04) which coats this plate that looks 
like a white compound that looks like plaster of paris.

The negative plate becomes more resistance to the current flow and the 
electrolyte becomes more weaker (more water) which is now venting more 
hydrogen.

If you leave this battery in this state for a long time, becomes less 
conductive with more SO4 coating not only the surface of the battery plates, 
but deep inside all the pores of this plate.

If the electrolyte level drops which is normal during the discharge cycle 
and even drops below the plates, leaving the surface expose, the sulfate 
(SO4) becomes very hard coating over these negative plates.

If the plates have a very hard coating and if a high ampere charge was done 
on them, this will cause the SO4 to exploded off the negative plates, which 
can even cause larger holes in the plates and even clean off the paste of 
the grids.

I seen these test of a high ampere discharge and charge on a battery cell 
that has a clear glass case or call JARS.  The 1/3 top portion of the 
battery plates had its paste blown clear off leaving the grids expose.

You may be able to bring these batteries back up to 70 to 80 percent by 
charging them at a very low ampere, so as not to blow more SO4 off the 
plates which will settle in the bottom well.

As they are charge at a very low ampere for a very long time, the S04 starts 
to combine with the H2O to make more H2SO4.  Lets say you have a 200 ah 
battery and it was depleted at 100 percent, than a 1 amp charge may take 200 
or more hours.

To hurry up this time, the ampere could be increase 1 amp per day aa more 
negative plates become more conductive.

Too high of a charge will also expand these plates, which causes the 
separators to spread a little.  The pasted material in the grids are not 
compress as much and the paste becomes very soft and looses it conduction to 
the grids.  I have remove plates from a single cell battery which is call a 
JAR because it is not part of a battery of cells, and just holding it 
horizontal to the force of gravity, the pasted material just fell out.

Roland




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Powers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 6:54 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Batteries sat too long (at very low drain rate)


> A friend of mine built an EV a few years ago (maybe 3
> or so).  He put in 13 Group 31 Optimas.  He drove it
> probably < 200 miles.  I know it was less than 30 days
> due to registration issues he had.  He couldn't
> legally drive it.  The car sat (with a very low
> parasitic drain on the batteries) and was parted out a
> few months ago.  I took the batteries.  As lead scrap,
> they are worth about $20 total.  I thought, well maybe
> something can be done with these.  Probably not, but
> maybe.  So, I asked around for some ideas.
>
> Here is what I did:
>
> 1. I checked the voltages.  They were all resting at
> about 6 V.  Bad ... very bad.
>
> 2. I tried to charge one with a regular battery
> charger.  No luck.  It just gave an error and turned
> off.  Another one started charging but never
> terminated the charge.  After I took off the charger,
> the voltage sagged from say 12.8 all the way to 12.4 -
> 12.5.  I'd say it has very bad self discharge.
>
> 3. I tried the charger and desulfator and left it on
> for about 2 weeks.  No luck.  Still can't hold 12.8 V.
>  Still has bad self discharge.  So much for the black
> magic solution.
>
> 4. I hooked the battery to another battery (in
> parallel).  That's basically constant voltage 13.0 V /
> high current charging.  That didn't work.  It's
> shocking the battery back to life - quite literally.
>
> 5. I hit the battery with high discharge rates in a
> pulsed fashion.  I literally shorted the terminals
> instantaneously over and over again.  I was trying to
> burn off any microshorts between the plates.  The
> voltage would go from 10 or so almost to zero and
> back.  That is very dangerous.  Don't try it.  Then, I
> got even more agressive and tried to push more current
> by paralleling (momentarily very quickly off and on)
> two batteries with reverse polarity - positive to
> negative, negative to positive.  I was again trying to
> burn off the micro shorts.  These batteries have
> almost no CCA, so I didn't even get that much of a
> current inrush.  DON'T TRY THAT WITH FRESH BATTERIES
> OR YOU'LL PROBABLY GET A SERIOUS EXPLOSION!!!
>
> 6. I hooked up the battery to my variac with full wave
> bridge and set it for 15 A charge rate.  I let it sit
> about 2 hours.  The voltage came up, but it got hot
> and still self discharged.
>
> 7. Finally, I hooked a fresh battery from the pack
> (sitting at 6 V) in series with a 120 V / 100 W light
> bulb and put it on my Variac with full wave bridge.  I
> turned it all the way up to 163 V DC.  The bulb lit
> and I was pushing 1 A through the battery.  I let it
> sit like that for 12 hours or so.  The voltage on the
> battery came up from 6 V steadily up to about 11.5 V.
> It's still going.  I'm not sure when to cut it off,
> 12.0 V, 12.2 V, 12.4 V, 12.6 V, 12.8 V.  Probably no
> higher than that.  Is there a better way to do this
> without wasting > 90% of the energy used in waste
> light and heat (the 100 Watt bulb)?
>
> So, can someone explain chemically what happened to
> these batteries and what I was technically doing in
> each of these experiments - why the last one worked
> best, but the constant voltage didn't ...
>
> I still think they are scrap, but it was worth a try
> to see if any capacity could be recovered from them.
> Otherwise, they make a very nice set of large yellow
> paperweights.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 07:11:08 -0900
From: Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fwd: 3 pole circuit breaker
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Wow nice thread.  I've been out of town for 3 days or I'd have commented 
sooner.  While I agree with Brian Gilbert about Tehben's
first choice of the 3 pole Square D breaker being the preferred alternative the 
multiple Airpax breakers that I am using in this
fashion are an acceptable compromise for me.  As was stated before the 
"Engineered" breakers meant to trip together within a tight
tolerance and are specified by their manufacturer to be run in series to 
increase the voltage rating of the assembly would always
be my preferred alternative. I would also insist as others have, that the 
individual Airpax breakers not be used in this fashion
IF they were depended on for emergency disconnects.  In my case however the 
individual series breakers are really only intended to
be used as my manual disconnect switch.  While the breakers will still exhibit 
high voltage and high current breaking
capabilities,  the primary and secondary safety devices are the main contactor 
coltrol from the Zilla (as well as my manual main
contactor coil disconnect on the dash) and the inline 500A fuse in the battery 
pack.  Granted the breakers will attemp to trip
before the fuse (and they have during high power testing).  Although the ganged 
handles on the breakers may be unreliable at
ensuring the contacts open at exactly the same time, and although this may 
cause one of the contacts (or even both) to become
welded, the primary and secondary safety disconnects are still in place.  And 
replacing the welded breakers is no big deal because
these Airpax breakers are inexpensive.  Of course a PE will always tell you to 
go by the book because they are sworn to protect
public safety, and a manufacturer will never say its OK to use their product in 
a way that is unfamiliar to them.  I remember the
Airpax guy also told me they won't even recommend using their breaker in an EV. 
 If they got a million $$ order from some EV
company for their products their PE's might just look at it real close and come 
up with the conditions that they would actually
recommend using their breaker.  Are the PE and the manufacturer worn for not 
recommending using this methid?  No.  Is an
individual wrong for using it anyway knowing the limitiations, implications and 
safety precautions in spite of the engineering
deficiency?  No.

As long as Tehben has a fuse AND a main contactor disconnect I think either of 
his breaker choices would suffice and be safe.

Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.





------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 08:16:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Dangit; worst outcome on heater relay?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

So as I'm trying to epoxy the magnet back into place,
must've touched something on the exposed legs of the
relay, because I got a beautiful blue/green arcing
taking place.  Any idea what occurred?

Any idea if the relay is shot?  I can't test it until
the epoxy is hard.

Now that KTA is only OEMs, where I can get the same
heater relay?

Any idea why stuff like this would only happen
approaching winter?
(;-p
Thanks, 

Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic?  My $20 "CiviWithACord" DVD shows footage of 
my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too! 
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
                          ____ 
                     __/__|__\ __        
  =D-------/    -  -         \  
                     'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? 
Are you saving any gas for your kids?

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 09:05:41 -0700
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Press release on Firefly "Oasis" battery
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I have seen a lot of numbers thrown around but 170wh/kg is what i have
always used. Here is a reference to support that.

massive link here

http://books.google.com/books?id=3YBPeJMKJHIC&pg=PA343&lpg=PA343&dq=lead+acid+theoretical+energy+density&source=web&ots=6hUXxmmdcq&sig=ku2h7tj1R515W7jPL7DgO3DC0kw


http://tinyurl.com/2j62ln

That puts the maximum theoretical right shy of the currently available
and way less than the theoreticals 200-300(phosphate) 400-600(cobalt)

by rough calculation
A123 are 70Grams , it takes 14.28 cells to be a kg. they are 2.3ah and
3.3V or 7.59 wh
This is 108wh/kg .

The theoretical is the active materials capacity. At zero charge there
is no electromotive force to do work, so you can't ever get that last
little bit out of a battery.
Lets say 80%. Then I haven't seen anyone get better than 50%. so 50% of
80% or 40% is my best guess. 40% of 170 is 68wh/kg. If firefly hits that
it will be a huge improvement. You have to have a case,separators and
electrolyte. The larger the battery, the more capacity per pound. That
is one of the reasons the A123 cells are so small capacity but they seem
to do pretty good.

Here are some trends. A123 thinks they will be able to double their
capacity in the next few years, they have press releases too.

Thundersky

    LFP40aha is 3.2V 40ah and weights 1.5kg = 85wh/kg
    LFP800aha is 3.2V 800ah and weights 25kg = 102.4 wh/kg

lithium cobalt (powerstream GMB18650H)
    3.7*2.2 / .46 = 176wh/kg

Kokam 100216216H
40ah*3.7V /1.1 = 134wh/kg

Notice these numbers are about 40-50% of theoretical for the chemistry.
(except cobalt, no-one wants to put that much cobalt in a cell, the
amount chosen is the best tripple point of enough active material,
enough electrolyte and collector grid)

The point is not to get too excited and not to confuse theoretical with
practical.



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 16:34:26 +0000
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Question on Series DC motor
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
        
Content-Type: text/plain


Thanks for the help. I have tried the 12 v test and motor will run either 
directition. I think the brushes are advanced however and I don't know how to 
determine which way the motor is supposed to run. If you are looking from the 
comm end the brushes are not 90 degrees to the comm.
Rick Prentiss
-------------- Original message from "Morgan LaMoore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: 
-------------- 


> However, if your motor brushes are advanced, they have to be advanced 
> for the direction of rotation. 
> 
> If your brushes aren't advanced, you don't have to worry about it, but 
> if they are advanced the wrong way, you will have to move the brushes 
> to the other side of center. 
> 
> I *think* that you can still do a 12V test with the brushes advanced 
> the wrong way, but I'm not sure. 
> 
> -Morgan LaMoore 
> 
> _______________________________________________ 
> For subscription options, see 
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 09:46:33 -0600
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fwd: 3 pole circuit breaker
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> It won't work because the contacts won't switch at *exactly* the same
> time. Imagine this: one contact opens a microsecond before the other
> one. The second one is still closed, almost a short circuit, so if
> there were no current, the entire 375V would be across the first
> contact. However, the inductive kickback from the rest of the circuit
> tries to keep the current flowing, driving a much higher voltage
> spike. You now have way over the rated voltage, so the air gap between
> the contacts will arc, possibly welding the contact closed. A
> microsecond later, the other one tries to open, and it has the same
> problem.
> 
> That's why, although voltages usually add in series, voltage ratings
> of contactors/relays/breakers don't (unless they were specifically
> engineered to have tight enough tolerances to avoid the problem).

That's not quite how it works. The voltage rating of contacts in series 
*do* add, as long as they are switched at *close* to the same time 
(where "close" means within about 10 milliseconds of each other.

Start with a contact switching AC. Full load current is flowing. The 
contacts open. Because they are mechanical, it takes time for them to 
move apart (on the order of milliseconds, not microseconds). An arc 
forms between them as they pull apart. The arc will last until the next 
zero crossing of the AC line; at most this will be 10 msec at 50 Hz, or 
8.33 msec at 60 Hz. So, the contacts are designed to survive up to 10 
msec of arcing at full load.

Now consider a contact switching DC. Again, full load current is flowing 
when the contacts open. Again, it takes 1-10 msec for them to move 
apart. During this time, there will again be an arc. But in this case, 
the arc won't go out until the gap between the contacts is wide enough 
to extinguish the arc *while* current is flowing. This requires about 4 
times the spacing. Thus, a given contact's DC voltage rating is about 
1/4th of its AC voltage rating. If you are within these limits, the arc 
will normally extinguish itself within the same 1-10 msec time frame as 
for AC. For example, you'll see contacts rated at 120vac, 30vdc.

If you have two contacts in series that open at *close* to the same 
time, within that 10 msec or less, then the first one to open still only 
has to sustain the arc by itself for this time. It can do this; just as 
it can for AC. Then the second contact opens, so the total distance the 
arcs have to cross will double. If this total is enough, then the arcs 
extinguish.

You can readily get times on the order of 10 msec or less with two 
circuit breakers coupled by a mechanical lever, or two relays or 
contactors with their coils wired in parallel, etc.
-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 09:47:25 -0600
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Question on Series DC motor
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> How do you determine which direction a Series DC motor should run?

Try running it in each direction. The one that it runs the fastest and 
draws the least current is the correct direction for its present brush 
timing.

-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net



------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 10:34:50 -0600
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Batteries sat too long (at very low drain rate)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Steve Powers wrote:
> 13 Group 31 Optimas...
>
> 1. I checked the voltages.  They were all resting at
>    about 6 V.  Bad ... very bad.
> 
> 2. I tried to charge one with a regular battery
>    charger.  No luck.
>
> 3. I tried the charger and desulfator and left it on
>    for about 2 weeks.  No luck.

It's always good to try normal solutions first.

> 4. I hooked the battery to another battery (in
> parallel).  That's basically constant voltage 13.0 V /
> high current charging.  That didn't work.

I suspect you didn't really get much charging current at all. These 
batteries will have very high internal resistance.

> 5. I hit the battery with high discharge rates in a
>    pulsed fashion.  I literally shorted the terminals
>    instantaneously over and over again.  I was trying to
>    burn off any microshorts between the plates.

You don't get shorts like this in lead-acid batteries. That's a trick 
used for nicad batteries.

With lead-acids, if there's a short, it's caused by lead sulfate shed 
from the plates that piles up as sediment at the bottom and shorts the 
plates. You can't burn it out. The only way to remove it is to 
physically disassemble the battery and wash it out (not practical with 
these batteries).

> 6. I hooked up the battery to my variac with full wave
>    bridge and set it for 15 A charge rate.  I let it sit
>    about 2 hours.  The voltage came up, but it got hot
>    and still self discharged.

Again, this is because the battery has very high internal resistance. 
Almost all the charging current is just converted to heat.

The resistance is high because all the acid has been converted to lead 
sulfate. The electrolyte is almost pure water, which has high electrical 
resistance.

> 7. Finally, I hooked a fresh battery from the pack
>    (sitting at 6 V) in series with a 120 V / 100 W light
>    bulb and put it on my Variac with full wave bridge.  I
>    turned it all the way up to 163 V DC.  The bulb lit
>    and I was pushing 1 A through the battery.  I let it
>    sit like that for 12 hours or so.

I think this has the best chance of recovering at least some use from 
these batteries. But, you have to leave that 1 amp charging current on 
for *days*! Keep charging at 1 amp or less with no voltage limit until 
the voltage stops rising. It could take 2-4 days. The peak voltage could 
easily be 30 volts or more. (Floodeds won't normally exceed 20v; doing 
this with gels will go even higher.)

If the battery isn't totally shot, the voltage will slowly rise as tiny 
amounts of lead sulfate get converted back into sulfuric acid. This 
lowers the resistance, which allows more charging, which converts more 
lead sulfate, etc.

Eventually/hopefully, enough lead sulfate converts back so the battery 
begins to behave again like a "normal" dead battery. Typically, after 
some period of days, the voltage peaks, starts to fall slowly, and then 
falls faster until it gets back down to 12.x volts. At this point, 
remove the battery from the trickle charger, and it should charge 
normally with a conventional 12v charger.

The battery will have lost considerable capacity, and will have much 
higher internal resistance; but it may still be good enough to use for 
non-demanding applications.

> Is there a better way to do this without wasting > 90% of the energy
> used in waste light and heat (the 100 Watt bulb)?

I use a 12 car tail light and a 20-30v power supply. Or, you can connect 
several batteries in series so the total up most of the applied voltage.

-- 
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 09:48:31 -0700
From: "Travis Gintz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Kelly controllers
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I'm wondering what kind of a product they have... I mean, I haven't
seen anyone use a kelly before... has anyone out there had any luck
with one? Do they hold up to the specs?

On Nov 3, 2007 5:21 AM, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> are Kelly controllers in stock somewhere or is it still a semi vaporware
> product?
>
> Dan
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



-- 
Travis Gintz
1986 Honda VFR AC conversion
Http://blog.evfr.net/



------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 09:56:33 -0700
From: Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Kelly controllers
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Cloud Electric has them listed on their site.
Bill

Travis Gintz wrote:
> I'm wondering what kind of a product they have... I mean, I haven't
> seen anyone use a kelly before... has anyone out there had any luck
> with one? Do they hold up to the specs?
> 
> On Nov 3, 2007 5:21 AM, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> are Kelly controllers in stock somewhere or is it still a semi vaporware
>> product?
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
> 
> 
> 



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 09:04:36 -0800
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Batteries sat too long (at very low drain rate)
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="iso-8859-1"

Lee Hart has talked about this.  It seems a very high voltage with very low
amps is just what the battery needs to be cured.  Look up in the archeives
or maybe Lee will chime in.  Lawrence Rhodes......



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 10:13:50 -0700
From: Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fwd: 3 pole circuit breaker
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Travis Gintz wrote:

> It wasn't making a blanked statement, I was saying unless its
> in the spec, and the company recommends it, its not going to
> be 100%.

I'm not going to bother digging back through your posts to point out 
specifically where you did make blanket statements, but you did.  Your PE 
friend did not state that it is unacceptable to wire these particular Airpax 
breakers in series to increase voltage rating; what you wrote is that wiring 
breaker poles in series was not an acceptable means of achieving higher voltage 
ratings.  This is incorrect, which I specifically demonstrated by pointing you 
to the Square D literature showing that it is indeed a valid approach to wire 
multiple poles in series, sometimes even when the poles are of multiple single 
pole breakers.

The Square D literature does not prove that this is acceptable practice for all 
breakers, just that it is for some, and therefore is not automatically invalid 
or incorrect for any.

> I said that I ordered some breakers, gave him the part
> number, and told him that I needed to use these in a DC
> application where the voltage was over 300V, but at the same
> current rating of the single breaker. I then asked if I could
> put them in series to acheive the voltage rating I need, with
> the handles tied together. He laughed and said no, and that
> If I needed something rated for that, they could do it at the
> factory where they make custom breakers. He did not elaborate
> other than it was to do with the design of the magnetic part
> of the breaker, and how it actually breaks contact.

And this is indeed worthwhile information for users of this specific part.  It 
does not establish that it is incorrect practice to wire the poles of *any* 
Airpax breaker in series for increased voltage rating, but just that it is not 
recommended for this particular model (which, granted, is useful since this is 
the specific model Tehben mentioned ;^)

Of course, we still don't know if the engineer has any experience with EVs or 
battery systems, or understood that the application uses the breakers as a 
*manual* disconnect and only requires that the breakers be able to open once 
under load in their lifetime.

> I said its not SAFE and he shouldn't do it without reading
> the spec, and calling the manufacturer. It could work, but
> for how long? and what if there is a problem? Who's liable?
> Who gets hurt? whats the damage? And as far as ratings, they
> always push the device to the failure limit... and derate it
> according to their procedures. GE Energy derated all of their
> stuff 25-50%. It would operate at a higher voltage/current,
> but the life was decreased and failures increased over time.

Do you understand the function of a breaker in an EV, and more specifically the 
function that Tehben described for the breaker(s) in his EV?

It is not used as a protection device in the normal sense; it is used as a 
switch that is opened and closed manually without any load current to isolate 
the pack and/or break it into smaller voltage segments during service, etc.  It 
may be opened manually under load in the event of a runaway condition if the 
fuse(s) and/or contactors fail to open first, however, this is an extremely 
rare situation and the breaker is only required to open under load like this 
once.

> If I could stop one person, who may not know the dangers of
> something, whether it be a kid running into a street, or an
> electrician wiring up 600VDC on a bus.... I'm 100% going to
> warn them 100% of the time. Its not is it righ or wrong, or
> will it work, its the REMOTE POSSIBILITY that something could
> go wrong.

I understand; if you've been on the list for any length of time, you'll be 
aware that I am an EE and I'm often the guy expressing the same sort of 
opinions as you are here. ;^>

There is, however, a saying to the effect that when even an experienced 
engineer states something to be impossible, they are almost certainly wrong. ;^>

As I've expressed, I do believe that if Tehben wants to be absolutely certain 
that his breaker(s) will perform reliably he should probably use a suitably 
rated breaker such as the Square D examples I mentioned.  However, I am 
confident that the ganged Airpax breakers may happen to work just fine for the 
specified purpose despite the Airpax engineer's assertions.  The key here is 
that if Tehben chooses to knowingly use the Airpax breakers outside of their 
intended/recommended ratings and application, then *he* must assume 
responsibility for testing to ensure that they will work.  Fortunately, this is 
easy to do; once the EV is running, just manually flip the breakers off while 
pulling a few hundred amps and verify that they shut the system down and remain 
functional afterwards.

Cheers,

Roger.



------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 10:08:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: dale henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Kelly controllers
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1


i got mine from electricvehicleusa, but i think you
can get them from the source too, just do a search for
them.  

i've only bench tested my kelly thus far as my bike is
not yet ready for a road test.

--- Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Cloud Electric has them listed on their site.
> Bill
> 
> Travis Gintz wrote:
> > I'm wondering what kind of a product they have...
> I mean, I haven't
> > seen anyone use a kelly before... has anyone out
> there had any luck
> > with one? Do they hold up to the specs?
> > 
> > On Nov 3, 2007 5:21 AM, Dan Frederiksen
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> are Kelly controllers in stock somewhere or is it
> still a semi vaporware
> >> product?
> >>
> >> Dan
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> For subscription options, see
> >> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >>
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 


harry

Albuquerque, NM
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1221
http://geocities.com/solarcookingman

__________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 13:33:40 EDT
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [EVDL] Smoke screen S10 at Pavillions Nov.3
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

The S10 street/drag truck will be in the Scotsdale Pavillions car show 
tonight.                                         Dennis Berube   


------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2007 18:38:48 +0000
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] AVCON INLET NEEDED
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Hi Matt,
  That's great, I was quoted a horrific price last time I asked.
I'll try again armed with this information :)

Thanks a lot.
Evan

On Nov 3, 2007 2:17 PM, Matthew Trevaskis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Evan,
>
> I have just received the new price list from Mar?chal:  the Euro-spec inlets
> (for the vehicles) start from around ?75+VAT+handling (US$150) and the
> connectors (for the charging cable) start from around ?84+VAT+handling
> (US$170) depending on which terminals you require.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Matt
>
> --
> Matthew Trevaskis
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> For electric vehicles, recharging installations and accessories
> eco-drive
> PO Box 255
> PENZANCE TR18 9AA
> United Kingdom
> Tel: +44 173 636 1207
> Fax*: +44 173 636 1677
> www.eco-drive.co.uk
> *Fax modem will receive faxes electronically (without paper) 8am-6pm UK time
> (midnight-10am PST, 3am-1pm EST) Monday-Saturday
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

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EV@lists.sjsu.edu
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